A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture

[x4000]

Cool stuff.

[Otagan]

And I'll be the first to admit that Zelda 2 was the most frustrating game in the entire series.  One of the most frustrating I've ever played.  The combat was okay in parts but mostly was really fiddly, the difficulty was insane, the final dungeon was just absolutely crazy... *cut here because the point is made*

As soon as I saw a reference to Zelda II as an inspiration I knew I needed to scour the thread to find a post like this to put me at ease.  We're on the same page regarding this, and as long as the gameplay is more like a recent Castlevania or Metroid than Zelda II, I think I'll be able to live with it quite easily.

Still, this is rather surprising considering the options my mind had been coming up with.  My greatest reassurance in this entire thread is that Keith is not a fan of platformers but still likes it.  I can only hope that carries over to me.  We'll find out when you start taking preorders, I guess.

[x4000]

We'll also have a demo at the same time of the preorders, so you can check it out without wagering any money on it.  Also, I am still working on that other post that should help to clear up some of the concerns that are arising here.  Part of the reason that that post is taking so long is that people keep coming up with new things for me to address, so that's getting longer and longer.

[keith.lamothe]

My greatest reassurance in this entire thread is that Keith is not a fan of platformers but still likes it.

Oh yea, I'm really not a platformer fan (some of them are interesting, but mostly not) and this has been such a major positive shift for the action gameplay.

Just stay tuned, there's plenty of stuff to be excited about

[Zhaine]

Wow, heh, I for one did not expect that!

I'll be honest and say my initial reaction was shock and dismay: I was worried that the change meant simplification and the loss of open world exploration. Basically I'd become rather attached to what I thought AVWW was going to be and this seemed not to be it.

Reading the blog and watching the vid though, most of my fears seem assuaged. I can see that the overarching themes and motives of the design are still in place and the game still has the same core values that first attracted me.

Not having played some of the older games people here are talking about (or Terraria) I'm still not sure exactly how exploration will play out in side on 2D; I'd been hoping for something with a real roguelike feeling to the exploration and discovery part of the gameplay, and inevitably some of how I imagined that might play will be lost (if it was ever there) in the perspective switch (possibly to be replaced by something better of course)!

However, what I can take from what Chris and Keith are saying is that the change really 'feels' right and makes things click into place, and I think that with as strong a vision for the overall objectives of the game design as they have then this feeling should be trusted!

Visually the jump in quality is absolutely stunning, and this is from someone who didn't have a big problem with the top down perspective at all. It seems to be that some aspects like the jump animation or the slowness of animation/movement in general may need tweaking, but this is in the detail, and overall it simply looks great now.

Much of this I'm sure will be answered in the forthcoming second post, but the perspective switch throws up a few questions:
- How does this affect multiplayer? Still in I hope?
- How does this affect darkness and nighttime? Obviously we can see a bit of this in the vid but I'd be interested to hear it explained in detail
- How does this affect the size of regions? And the map? And do you still get dumped mid region by windstorms?

Finally, just out of interest/curiosity, was it not insanely hard to throw away so much hard work on the top down version to make the switch? Clearly this wasn't anything close to a from-scratch redesign and I know that game design is about iteration and experimentation and things always get thrown out, but given the finite time, budget and manpower available, how tough was it to chuck away all the work on the top down visual engine, the lighting, the region and interior generation not to mention so much of the art that must have gone with the switch? Feel free not to answer!

Thanks as always for sharing 

[keith.lamothe]

- How does this affect multiplayer? Still in I hope?

Definitely.

- How does this affect darkness and nighttime? Obviously we can see a bit of this in the vid but I'd be interested to hear it explained in detail

We've never actually had a day/night cycle but the darkness is handled in roughly the same way as before.  The difference is that transitions from "well lit area" to "dark area" are a lot more common as you go from surface to surface tunnels to underground and back, etc.

- How does this affect the size of regions?

There about as wide as before (iirc) but aren't as tall; but there's underground chunks that you can go "down" into and Chris is working on having the surface be multiple chunks "long", but only the one exit to the world map.  There's also building interiors both on the surface and in the underground.

And the map?

If you mean the world map, it's unchanged.

And do you still get dumped mid region by windstorms?

I think Chris is planning to drop you somewhere in the middle, yea.  You certainly won't pop up near the entrance, to be sure.

Finally, just out of interest/curiosity, was it not insanely hard to throw away so much hard work on the top down version to make the switch?

A shockingly low amount of stuff had to change and/or is not still used, actually.  In any event, when Chris has a really clear idea of what he wants to do and is really motivated to do it, it always happens in less than 48 hours.  Wouldn't matter if it was making a new operating system or whatever, it'd just appear

[x4000]

Okay, the longest dev diary I have ever done (and they are already way insanely too long) is now up: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,8706.msg77762.html#msg77762

Hope you enjoy, and it should answer most questions.

[Zhaine]

Finally, just out of interest/curiosity, was it not insanely hard to throw away so much hard work on the top down version to make the switch?

A shockingly low amount of stuff had to change and/or is not still used, actually.  In any event, when Chris has a really clear idea of what he wants to do and is really motivated to do it, it always happens in less than 48 hours.  Wouldn't matter if it was making a new operating system or whatever, it'd just appear

Haha, that I'd like to see

Thanks for the reply

[x4000]

Haha, that I'd like to see

Me too, heh.  But this did come together in about three days, in terms of getting it functional.  Then it was all polish from there onwards, plus new content and functionality.

[Wingflier]

I just wanted to pitch in and give my personal opinion about this change.

Before I do, I want to give my regards to Arcen.  This is the only company that I know which will make major, fundamental changes to their games even post-production or after they have already spent an unbelievable amount of time on the original concept.  A prior example of this were the Core Shield Generators in AI War.  More a year after the game's release, Chris was considering a massive, gamechanging idea that got was incredibly controversial.  Even though the idea eventually became optional, the implementation of it, as well as the merciless quest to find a solution to the problem at the time, ended up with the problem being solved better than even originally intended.

It is this ability and willingness to make drastic changes (to games that are already plenty innovative) that seperates Arcen from other companies in my opinion.  I'm thrilled that AVWW has become a side-scrolling game for several reasons.  For 1 thing, I think the 3D/2D looking-down-at-an-angle type RPG games have been way overdone.  Though I realize AVWW isn't meant to be a Diablo 2 clone (and probably has almost nothing in common), it was the first thing I thought when I saw it.  I've played so many damn ARPGs in my life, with better graphics than AVWW has, and probably ever will have, that this aspect alone would have ruined my enjoyment of the game in many ways.  I really like the side-scroller idea for several reasons:  For 1 thing, side-scrolling RPGs are incredibly rare these days (to my knowledge), and thus you are touching on a wide-open market in that sense.  I have to admit that I really enjoyed Terraria (having never played Minecraft for the reasons mentioned above except substitute ARPGs with FPS games), though I realize that Terraria probably has about as much in common with AVWW as Diablo 2 does.  In the end, it's all about presentation.  I believe you are correct in thinking that your game will be judged less harshly as a somewhat rare RPG sidescroller, than it will as an isometric-style one, simply because it hasn't been done that much lately.  If it also works out better for the mechanics and future plans of the game, that's all the better!

I will admit that I find it hard to believe a 2D side-scrolling game can have as much potential for depth as a pseudo-3D type, but then again Arcen always seems to surprise me with these things.  Look at AI War, a space-strategy game that has been done a hundred times before, except for 1 small concept (AI Progress) which changes the entire shape of the game.  The same thing happened with Tidalis, you took a tried and true formula and flipped it on its head with one small set of mechanics.  I can't currently comprehend how a 2D game can be more than artificially deep, but that just makes me more excited to see the end result.

The only thing that bothered me about the preview video were the character walking and attacking animations, which seemed to break the immersion for me.  I realize this is very alpha still (especially after the switch), but if the entire game is going to be a screen centered on your avatar, I hope that the utmost importance is given to making it seem plausable and realistic.

Great job guys, and I look forward to further updates for the game!

[Castruccio]

I just wanted to pitch in and give my personal opinion about this change.


The only thing that bothered me about the preview video were the character walking and attacking animations, which seemed to break the immersion for me.  I realize this is very alpha still (especially after the switch), but if the entire game is going to be a screen centered on your avatar, I hope that the utmost importance is given to making it seem plausable and realistic.

Great job guys, and I look forward to further updates for the game!

Agreed.  The same thing bothered me, too.   Will the run speed be increased at all?  It seems really slow right now.

[x4000]

Speaking of the visual run speed, not the actual speed of movement, I agree on closer look that this needs to be sped up.


Wingflier, thanks for the post, and good thoughts.  In terms of the exploration elements with this game, we aim to do it in a way that I haven't seen with other side-scrolling games, which should be pretty interesting to folks, I think.

[tigersfan]

With the understanding that I am willing to wait and see how it actually plays out before I make total judgement, I'm worried that the wooden platforms you speak of are really going to make the game feel too much like Terraria, in which (at least the way I play) I use a ton of those things to get around. Chris, I know you said you haven't played it, but, especially now that this is a side-scroller, I'd ask that you play it a bit just so that you can make sure you don't get too close too them. I don't want to buy your game and feel like I'm re-buying Terraria.

[x4000]

With the understanding that I am willing to wait and see how it actually plays out before I make total judgement, I'm worried that the wooden platforms you speak of are really going to make the game feel too much like Terraria, in which (at least the way I play) I use a ton of those things to get around. Chris, I know you said you haven't played it, but, especially now that this is a side-scroller, I'd ask that you play it a bit just so that you can make sure you don't get too close too them. I don't want to buy your game and feel like I'm re-buying Terraria.

Keith has played it, which should help with that -- I don't really have time to get into a new game like Terraria.  That's disappointing that they also have that same thing -- as soon as I showed Keith Ride The Lightning he was like "oh, that's like Genie Bottle Cloud from Terraria."  Or whatever its called there.

At any rate, I guess when it comes to movement about the world from a side view, there are only so many things that can be done.  It's not like the double jump was new to Terraria, either.

Anyway, we are trying to stay away from their area as much as possible.  That was one thing that cemented the "no digging the ground" thing for me, was that Minecraft and Terraria both emphasize that so much.  And part of what made the decision to go magic-only so much easier was the fact that Terraria had so many weapons.  So we are trying to stay away from them as much as possible, but for really basic things like moving around there's going to be a certain amount of overlap just as Terraria overlaps Castlevania and Metroid and others.  In the final analysis I think these will be obvious as really different games, though.

[Nalgas]

It's not like the double jump was new to Terraria, either.

Ride the Lightning is similar to the double jump in Terraria, except theirs only lets you jump about half as high on your second jump as your first jump instead of four times higher like yours.  If there are only a limited number of ways you can interact with the world, you just have to do it more and better than the last guy, right?  Problem solved: $@&! Everything, We're Doing Quintuple Jump!