Author Topic: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture  (Read 48919 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2011, 12:39:28 pm »
So there's now no hand-to-hand combat at all?

Not in terms of weaponry, but there are touch-distance spells that accomplish the same kind of thing.  More on that in the next post today, it's one of the foci of that one. :)

How about interiors?  I've been looking forward to fighting my way through an office building for a fire gem.

Oh yeah, interiors are still alive and well, although there are obviously changes there to account for the side view, etc.  More on that in the next post, too.  I don't think you'll be finding many raw gems except underground, but there will be other vital crafting items that you'll find inside things like office buildings or rural shacks or whatever.  These sorts of "catalysts" are what you combine with the raw gems in order to create the most interesting and powerful spells, so those tend to require both underground and surface/interior exploration.
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Offline Nice Save

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2011, 12:45:54 pm »
I'm worried that people won't see past the 'side-scrolling' label in the same way they didn't see past Tidalis' 'puzzle' label. The indie games industry is knee-deep in shallow side-scrollers for little money, and it may be tough to get people to take the time to learn that this isn't just the same thing but more expensive.

Reading the post I wasn't completely convinced, but August is a long time away in Arcen-time, so I'll reserve judgement for now.

How are you going to handle enemy difficulty now? I was looking forward to getting out of my depth in high level areas and having to sneak around the tough enemies, or use traps and planning to take them on one at a time. Will these things still be possible? It seems like it would be hard to put a really nasty enemy in without it being a roadblock, the side-scrolling element making it harder to go around.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2011, 12:49:07 pm »
How are you going to handle enemy difficulty now? I was looking forward to getting out of my depth in high level areas and having to sneak around the tough enemies, or use traps and planning to take them on one at a time. Will these things still be possible? It seems like it would be hard to put a really nasty enemy in without it being a roadblock, the side-scrolling element making it harder to go around.
None of that's changed, really.  The world map is unchanged so it's not really a roadblock if a particular region has an enemy in a chunk you don't want to deal with.  It's now much easier for us to concentrate encounters though, so we don't have to deal as much with the problem of either "too rare to be encountered" or "too dense".
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2011, 12:53:39 pm »
I'm worried that people won't see past the 'side-scrolling' label in the same way they didn't see past Tidalis' 'puzzle' label. The indie games industry is knee-deep in shallow side-scrollers for little money, and it may be tough to get people to take the time to learn that this isn't just the same thing but more expensive.
That was one of my initial concerns, but I've seen that the side-scrolling bit didn't hurt Terraria one bit either commercially or fun-wise; and actually I much prefer it to Minecraft because it's a more readily-grasped interface for me.  And if anyone thinks we're stealing ideas from Terraria I can just laugh, that game is like the poster-child of why it's good to adapt other games' ideas :)  Though our particular inspiration for side-view comes from much older games, as Chris said.

On the other hand, the reaction to the previous faux-top-down perspective was almost universally negative, and often _really_ negative.  We looked at things like isometric 2D, real-3D, etc... none of them were feasible, for varying reasons.  So here's a different perspective that we can do and is actually way more feasible than faux-top-down in tons of different aspects.  If people didn't want us to change it, they shouldn't have said so ;)  Though the strength of that feedback wasn't nearly as high in this forum as in other places.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2011, 12:58:26 pm »
Zelda had Ganon and a princess. Occasionally fairies. Strongly suggesting a villain! Terraria (bosses) and MC don't have them.

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Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2011, 12:59:02 pm »
I'm worried that people won't see past the 'side-scrolling' label in the same way they didn't see past Tidalis' 'puzzle' label. The indie games industry is knee-deep in shallow side-scrollers for little money, and it may be tough to get people to take the time to learn that this isn't just the same thing but more expensive.

That's certainly a possibility, but I think it's less damaging than "your art makes my eyes bleed, so I won't play it," which was what a lot of people who weren't already Arcen fans were saying.  When it comes to the marketing material and general descriptions of the game, we tend to focus on the macrogame bits, too.  With Tidalis, we had the disadvantage of it actually being a puzzle game, just with new mechanics that weren't a Bejeweled ripoff.  But being a side scroller means a lot of different things, and I think it can be clear that there is more going on here once we are able to show things like crafting settlement buildup, etc, in the videos.

How are you going to handle enemy difficulty now? I was looking forward to getting out of my depth in high level areas and having to sneak around the tough enemies, or use traps and planning to take them on one at a time. Will these things still be possible? It seems like it would be hard to put a really nasty enemy in without it being a roadblock, the side-scrolling element making it harder to go around.

As Keith noted, the new design actually makes some of this easier.  Before there were way too many ways to go around enemies, but your field of vision was limited enough that by the time you saw an enemy, the enemy saw you.  Here we have a lot more flexibility, because movement past enemies is inherently more bottlenecked, which actually makes things easier for us.  Since we know you're going to have to get physically past X tough enemy if the enemy is there, that means we can focus on things like, for instance, abilities that let you leap or fly over the enemy in question; abilities that make you invisible or harder to detect and thus slip past the enemy; abilities that let you separate the enemy from the other enemies around, to pick it off one by one (the Seize spell that we'll be talking about today already does this, and you can actually see it in practice at one point in the video (0:29).

There's also the fact that quite often there are multiple routes, and so simply finding a way to go around (vertically or otherwise) is something that is very possible to do.  This video showed a lot of walking along the surface because that's what looks visually best at the moment, but that's not the extent of the gameplay at all. :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2011, 12:59:47 pm »
Zelda had Ganon and a princess. Occasionally fairies. Strongly suggesting a villain! Terraria (bosses) and MC don't have them.

There are various procedurally-generated overlords that are around throughout the world.  They are on par with Gannon in terms of how much you have to improve yourself to take each one out. :)
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2011, 01:01:17 pm »
Cool, I'll just sit here and twiddle my thumbs impatiently til August, then.   ::)

Offline Orelius

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2011, 01:22:02 pm »
Game looks amazing, but I'm wondering why the movement animations are so slow.  It makes it look like the characters are dancing or having a leisurely stroll rather than running.

Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2011, 01:23:21 pm »
Game looks amazing, but I'm wondering why the movement animations are so slow.  It makes it look like the characters are dancing or having a leisurely stroll rather than running.

Thanks, glad you like it.  I probably just need to tune the speed of those, it's a minor thing but it's hard to see when you're close to it sometimes.  Too fast and it looks like they are skiing. :)
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Offline HitmanN

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2011, 02:20:08 pm »
I had a hunch this could turn into a side-scroller. ;) I think Keith mentioned about you guys wanting to do a platformer game some day, back in LotS dev days or so.

In any case, I like platformers, as long as there's some RPG elements involved, so this should turn out interesting.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2011, 02:23:50 pm »
I had a hunch this could turn into a side-scroller. ;) I think Keith mentioned about you guys wanting to do a platformer game some day, back in LotS dev days or so.
Personally I enjoy some platformers but would never have thought to make one; I'm more of an "the player only has to make decisions, not implement them" type person.  But Chris is handling the action parts so that's ok ;)  And AVWW just feels so much more fun this way than the other.

One of the games I thought of when considering the switch to side-view was that one you were working on with the person jumping through the tower and the Diablo-esque gameplay, etc.  It was one of the big points in favor of me thinking that this approach (side-scroller and RPG-ish) could work.

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Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2011, 02:28:59 pm »
In any case, I like platformers, as long as there's some RPG elements involved, so this should turn out interesting.

I am absolutely an enormous fan of platformers, but I'd be really reluctant to characterize this in that way.  I'll respond to that in the detail post I'm working on, actually.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2011, 02:32:04 pm »
I'm still waiting for the update about the goal. I know there are supposed to be settlements and some world vision, but that's not clear to me just yet. If AI war is the benchmark, the goal is to defeat the AI. In Zelda, Gannon. In Castlevania, Dracula or some derivative. Tidalis had a story mode, and there was an ending. And I know you said there are overlords but...

Without something to achieve, something to work towards and make you run to the next objective, you need a goal. If anyone besides the developers sees what that goal is, please enlighten me, as I'm not sure it's been revealed yet. I'm not sure I would play Simon's quest if Dracula wasn't in it, and you just run around Transylvania forever. Sounds like gaming purgatory, doesn't it?
 
In any event, this reveal was a good one and a positive step. Just need one more, and that's the motive for the player. The questions I've been asking are all in trying to figure out what that motive is.
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Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2011, 02:35:05 pm »
I'll speak to motives in the next post that I'm working on right now, thanks for reminding me.  That has always been the same since the game started, but I don't think that I've been too clear on it depsite having talked about it at RPS and elsewhere.
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