A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture

[keith.lamothe]

I'm not sure I would play Simon's quest if Dracula wasn't in it, and you just run around Transylvania forever. Sounds like gaming purgatory, doesn't it?

Would you play it if you could keep playing after taking down Dracula, and maybe go adventuring in other nearby lands, some of which have similar needed cleanup?  There's more to it than that, but that's a start.

[Nalgas]

I'm not sure I would play Simon's quest if Dracula wasn't in it, and you just run around Transylvania forever. Sounds like gaming purgatory, doesn't it?

Would you play it if you could keep playing after taking down Dracula, and maybe go adventuring in other nearby lands, some of which have similar needed cleanup?  There's more to it than that, but that's a start.

So after you're done with Dracula, you go next door and deal with Gannon, and then maybe eventually the AI?

[HitmanN]

One of the games I thought of when considering the switch to side-view was that one you were working on with the person jumping through the tower and the Diablo-esque gameplay, etc.  It was one of the big points in favor of me thinking that this approach (side-scroller and RPG-ish) could work.

w00t. I made a difference. xD lol.

I resumed working on Twisted Tower too, recently. There's definitely room for more hack'n slash platformers with randomly generated content out there.

In any case, I like platformers, as long as there's some RPG elements involved, so this should turn out interesting.

I am absolutely an enormous fan of platformers, but I'd be really reluctant to characterize this in that way.  I'll respond to that in the detail post I'm working on, actually.

Hmm.. ok.

I do see the character standing on something (I consider that a platform), and it's from a side view (side-scroller). Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[keith.lamothe]

So after you're done with Dracula, you go next door and deal with Gannon, and then maybe eventually the AI?

If that's what you want (probably not "the AI" as in AIW's AI, but you get the idea).

Or maybe you found a memory crystal on Dracula that the storyteller finds some really interesting/sinister bit of history from, and gives you a lead on which direction to travel to find out more, and to get out there you have various challenges to face...

[Nalgas]

So after you're done with Dracula, you go next door and deal with Gannon, and then maybe eventually the AI?

If that's what you want (probably not "the AI" as in AIW's AI, but you get the idea).

I totally want it to be "the AI" so there can be some cross-game continuity.  Now that there's vertical movement, surely if I play for several thousand hours I can get a high enough level flight spell that its effects will scale up enough that I can make it into space or ride the lightning will carry me straight into the AI homeworld command station.  Heh.

[keith.lamothe]

I totally want it to be "the AI" so there can be some cross-game continuity.  Now that there's vertical movement, surely if I play for several thousand hours I can get a high enough level flight spell that it's effects will scale up enough that I can make it into space or ride the lightning will carry me straight into the AI homeworld command station.  Heh.

Some people just can't get enough

[x4000]

I am absolutely an enormous fan of platformers, but I'd be really reluctant to characterize this in that way.  I'll respond to that in the detail post I'm working on, actually.

Hmm.. ok.

I do see the character standing on something (I consider that a platform), and it's from a side view (side-scroller). Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Well, depends on your definition of platformer, I guess.  If you consider Metroid or Castlevania or Faxanadu or Cave Story a platformer, then I guess this is, too.  But none of those games really has much emphasis on timed jumps or other kinds of Mario-style of DKC-style action.  It's true, Super Meat Boy also has platforms and a side view, but there's almost nothing in common with that and AVWW, so I'm reluctant to use the same genre descriptor there.

I totally want it to be "the AI" so there can be some cross-game continuity.  Now that there's vertical movement, surely if I play for several thousand hours I can get a high enough level flight spell that its effects will scale up enough that I can make it into space or ride the lightning will carry me straight into the AI homeworld command station.  Heh.

Without any spoilers, we do plan some crossovers with AI War in particular.

[Cyborg]

I'm not sure I would play Simon's quest if Dracula wasn't in it, and you just run around Transylvania forever. Sounds like gaming purgatory, doesn't it?

Would you play it if you could keep playing after taking down Dracula, and maybe go adventuring in other nearby lands, some of which have similar needed cleanup?  There's more to it than that, but that's a start.

Dracula? More than Dracula? Well yes, if Gannon was next door and...

But here is what wouldn't work. http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Bongo_Bongo followed by morpha, so on and so forth. Defeating bongo bongo was entertaining because it led to a cut scene, new equipment, and part of the puzzle solved. In addition, defeating bongo bongo was a unique boss encounter that was kind of entertaining, but after you defeated him, it wasn't all that important to the experience. Nobody referenced him, nobody knows his name, and Gannon never seemed to care much either. I hate to use this as the example, but a never-ending stream of bongo bongo would never work because it's just a random boss. Bongo bongo works because of what you get out of it and a step towards the overarching motive, but that's what he is, a brick on the road. Am I making my point or is it ambiguous? Imagine that game with bongo bongo and friends, but Gannon never shows up to the party. That would be purgatory.

Going back to Dracula, that situation would work if and only if the next boss had the same credibility or something worthy. Dracula has credibility all by himself, in a way that bongo bongo doesn't. The more I try to explain it, the more it may feel arbitrary that I compare bongo bongo with these other bosses, but I think it's important to actually differentiate what a gaming achievement is in a story compared to nameless bosses. When I am talking about a motive, I don't mind having the game extend itself with other overlords and stories, but you need to have something for the gamer to strive for. As a gamer, what do I want to achieve? How will it be fulfilled? I can promise you, bongo bongo will not fulfill my needs. He will entertain me for a good fight, but he is not the main course.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I made a blog post here: http://kingisaaclinksr.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/a-valley-without-wind-sideview/, but here are some excerpts about AVWW's changes.

AVWW feels and looks tighter as a side-scroller than the old over-the-head-look.  Even I had to admit that the old look just strains the eyes and I believe this was due to the sheer amount of items present when your looking at the game from that perspective.  In this sense, the game would have possibly failed.  If I was having issues looking at it for a couple of minutes, I can understand why there was so much negativity to it from other people.  From the side-scrolling look, the graphics look just absolutely sharp.  It all fits together and you don’t feel like your straining yourself even in the slightest to look at it.

The style of the graphics also comes out really well.  While you could get a feeling of it before, this new view seems to focus the style of graphics and it looks really pretty.  I can’t stress that enough, but it looks REALLY PRETTY.     I think all the hard work Chris put into it doesn’t go to waste with the pictures you can see of it.

My main worry is exploration.  Is it going to be just as big and epic as it could have been before this change?


My other worry is combat.  I felt like side-scrolling would limit combat again, but going back to the old system, the combat in that game was a little wonky from what I could tell.  I wasn’t going to make any real impressions of it until I had access to the BETA version, but just from the videos I think that the combat will be better and smoother since its less about how your character is aimed and has a definite tacticle feel to it.  But this is really difficult to say which way would have been better as we will never get to play both versions of it.

And there you go

-King

[x4000]

Dracula? More than Dracula? Well yes, if Gannon was next door and...

Well, the thing with Bongo Bongo was that he was just a dungeon boss.  He came about maybe 1-2 hours of gameplay after the boss before him, and there was another boss bout 1-2 hours after him.  Max.  Nobody said anything about him before you met him that I recall, and you're right that nobody ever talked about him afterward.  And worse yet, killing him didn't save anybody or accomplish anything except getting you the next Sage freed that you needed to take on the real boss of the game, Gannon.  It's those things that made Bongo Bongo just a boss, and not an archvillain.

With AVWW, we have minor "named monster" outposts, too.  Those are somewhat like Bongo Bongo.  Nobody talks about them overmuch except to tell you the exist when they ask you to get rid of them, and getting rid of those smaller named monsters only solves a problem in a local area.

On the other hand, with the evil overlords we're talking about for AVWW, you're going to have to play for 10-20+ hours to bring down one of those fellas.  Doing so requires not only the fight with the overlord themselves, but also traversing their entire fortress of bad guys that they have on hand to protect said fortress.  Prior to defeating that bad guy, you'll have 10-20 hours of NPCs in a wide range of regions who are lamenting the crushing yoke of this overlord in various ways.  And if you try to attack the overlord too early, after even finding their keep to begin with, expect to die.  Once you finally do defeat the overlord, the game remembers that forever (that's part of the "deeds" system we've talked about in the past).  To people that were affected by the overlord in the first place, this is a really big deal and they remember both the overlord and the specific character that defeated him/her.

It's all in how you build up the overlord, I'm convinced.  It's kind of like the way AI War builds up to the final fights at the procedurally-generated AI homeworlds.  There's a strategic component to even figuring out how to defeat each overlord, because each one is outfitted so differently.  So you might have to do some recon and some refitting as you go, too, in order to even take them out.

[Nalgas]

It's true, Super Meat Boy also has platforms and a side view, but there's almost nothing in common with that and AVWW, so I'm reluctant to use the same genre descriptor there.

Super Meat Boy also seems to have had "set a new record for shortest average time time between start of game and throwing of controller through screen" as an explicit design goal, which I was planning to say makes it hard to compare directly to most games, but that actually comes from the NES-era games it's based on, just like a lot of AVWW's roots in that time period.  What was I talking about again?  Heh.

[x4000]

Thanks for the post, King!  I went and checked out the whole thing.  I'll have another post later today (been writing it for the last four hours, heh) that will answer all those questions and more.  And I'm sure raise a lot more questions, too.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Thanks for the post, King!  I went and checked out the whole thing.  I'll have another post later today (been writing it for the last four hours, heh) that will answer all those questions and more.  And I'm sure raise a lot more questions, too.

Funny how long those posts take  

Will watch for it. 

King

[x4000]

Funny how long those posts are  

Fixed that for you.

[Cyborg]

Well now I'm excited. You have explained an overlord accurately. A true villain inspires enmity, tramples upon the world like a child in a toy room, taunts the hero, and the life and death of this villain is memorable. A villain runs a pyramid scheme of henchmen (I love when they get promoted! Remember Kefka? Sephiroth? They were not the original head villain). A villain has a fortress and is guarded by lieutenants. When you defeat the villain, there is a showdown and finally a reward upon completion. The world is saved, and you are the hero.

But let's not forget the villain. To me, villains are my favorite. They make the game. Without Gannon, there is no Zelda. What is "Simon's quest " without Dracula? "Simon's Wanderings"? It's like Hook said to Peter Pan, what would the world be like without Capt. Hook? What is Boston without Vancouver/Montréal? And in a game like this where the hero is you, you need a strong counterbalance to prevent what my main concern was-bongo bongo ad infinitum, gaming purgatory without something to strive for. Now that I know we have some evil worthy of an ass kicking and a parade at the end, I'm in.