Author Topic: A Valley Without Wind Alpha #12 -- Side View, Undergrounds, and Other New Mechan  (Read 21179 times)

Offline x4000

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Well so far a lot of reaction seems to be falling into two broad categories: people who've not read all the diaries generally quite negative and disinterested and/or think you've copied Terraria (see RPS), and those who have read and, with some reservations, are quite happy with the change and are looking forward to the game as much as before (or more).

I think the former is pretty understandable, as it was exactly my initial reaction (while I'm now much more in camp two). I'm not sure what you can do about that, apart from get those you can to try and read and understand the motivations for the change and then accept that some people are just going to be turned off by the switch.

Yeah, I think a lot more folks fall into the former than the latter who are commenting, at least.  On RPS it's pretty split, maybe somewhat on the negative side, but most other places it's been very high positive as a percentage.  Even youtube, wonder of wonders.

- The game is much, much prettier side on. Yay!

Yep, generally so.

- However, the animations could definitely use some more work.

Well, the animation speeds are definitely off, but that's been the main point of consensus.  Some others have mentioned the single-frame other animations, but that's not been a huge percentage of folks to the point I'd call it a consensus.


It might also help if you released more of what the game does in the next or next-next video.  Mostly its been graphics with spells, but now we need a bit more if I had to guess.

Yes, but we can't show you what is partially implemented.  There's a lot of macrogame stuff coded out, but lots of it has MS Paint temporary art created by Keith, other parts involve menus that look very visually unfinished, and a lot of it takes a long time to actually do.  Showing things of that nature seems like it would be more damaging than not, but we've already said that we're making a concerted effort to make the next videos about that stuff.  With the recent UI overhauls for several of the menus, and indeed flow overhauls, that's finally getting to where we can show it.

Also, Keith was waiting on a number of world building things from my end before he could even finish some of the stuff he had.  So, he had various hopes and similar implemented in a test environment, but they weren't seeding into the main world until recently because there was nowhere stable to seed them.  Etc.

A lot of that macrogame stuff is kind of all-or-nothing, and isn't really something that can easily be shown until it's nearing being fully polished.  We're just now hitting that point, so we're just now getting ready to show it; there's no way we're stupid enough to show something like that in a larval form. ;)
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Offline getter77

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 Re-watched the trailer and the off-seeming bit hits right around the 1:12 mark unless my eyes are playing tricks.

Instead of a "crane stance" it looks more like the character's left arm kinda vanishes against the torso with only a bit of the hand coming out a tad above the shoulder into the background.  With the old version, unless I'm crazy, the angle of viewing and the character size seemed sharper and bigger respectively.  The side view almost takes out the "crane" reference as that is a hard thing to display at that angle and I'd probably have not even connected it if not for the prior vids.

Solution?  All i can think is to be mindful of the torso "hiding" a limb in part and maybe adopt a frame of mind where gestures are "forward" or maybe "backwards" to the character, but never to the "side" that, in this case, seems to become foreground/background---pretty much back to how older digitizes fighters tried to keep the limbs at the forefront since that was usually where all the specials had their tells.   ;)

I like the jumps though, as they give a bit of flair to it that was not there in the top down.   8)
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Offline x4000

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Ah, I see -- yeah, that's just a trick of your eyes, and possibly of the encoding you're watching it at.  Check it out fullscreen in 1080p, and you can see his hand.  The problem is that in that one he has a dark shirt and he has dark skin, which makes it blend in a bit.  But when he has other color shirts, that's why you're not noticing that even on a lower resolution if that's what you're watching it at (I have no idea).  I think that with variable-color shirts, you're sometimes going to have them blend in a bit more like that.  Anyway, when I watched it at 480p, I totally saw what you were saying, but at 1080p it looked correct again to me...

EDIT: But yeah, bringing the limbs forward some could help with that, at any rate.
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Offline getter77

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Well, unless I've horribly misunderstood the tech end of it, my max monitor res is only 1680x1050 as opposed to the "true" HD, so same as with all prior trailers I've only watched them at  fullscreen 720p for fear of some sort of messed up trying-to-scale-beyond issue.

I guess it just boils down to, in my mind, that some of the pre-existing poses and whatnot may well not translate 100% to the new viewing angle in much the same fashion as the new viewing angle opens up about as many possibilities for even better/different ones that wouldn't have displayed correctly on the old.   ;D

I'm still utterly with it all on the gameplay and pre-order end, don't get me wrong, just some visual tidbits happened to get caught in my mind's sifter this go round.   :D
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Offline Nalgas

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Well, unless I've horribly misunderstood the tech end of it, my max monitor res is only 1680x1050 as opposed to the "true" HD, so same as with all prior trailers I've only watched them at  fullscreen 720p for fear of some sort of messed up trying-to-scale-beyond issue.

Your monitor won't explode from trying to go beyond the impossible or anything.  You won't get the full benefit of watching it in 1080p, but unless whatever you're watching it with is using a truly awful and bizarre scaling algorithm, it should potentially look a bit better than 720p and let you see a little more detail.

Offline x4000

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I'm on 1280x1024 (with two monitors, but just showing the video on one), and the 1080p definitely looks by far the best.  Anyhow, all good.
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Offline Nalgas

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I'm on 1280x1024

Gah, the evil resolution/aspect ratio that should never have been allowed to exist.  KILL IT WITH FIRE!  Seriously, who thought introducing 5:4 was a good idea for the sake of a single resolution?  I have had so many minor-to-moderate annoyances thanks to that over the years...

Offline c4sc4

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Anyway, one thing that the Metroidvania games don't have that we do is 3D exploration.  They only include exploration on two axes.  That's never been the case for AVWW, which previously had a Z axis that was down into the ground or up into buildings.  Now the Z axis for AVWW is going "inward" into slices of buildings and the underground, while at the same time having enormous distances that can be traveled in the down-into-the-earth and across-the-surface directions.
And that's all just in one region, before you even start talking about the world map.  So... there are some things in common with a Metroidvania game, but really there's a lot here that's never been done elsewhere.
I actually started to think about this after my post and it made me kind of excited. For indoor stuff, how I imagined it and it seems like what you are going to do is that you will enter a building from the outside and now are in, lets say, a house. Now lets say you are in a hallway and to your left is a living room are and to the right is some stairs. Now lets say in the background is another door, similar to the one you entered the house from, that you could enter in the same way to get to the kitchen area. If this is what you are planning to do then it does seem like something that hasn't really been done before and seems like it would make for some awesome exploration, especially in some large buildings.

Speaking of stairs, I'm curious to how you will do them inside buildings. My two ways of thinking about how they would work would be either having physical stairs you climb or background stairs you "enter." It seems the problem with having physical stairs in plane with your character would be that you couldn't have something behind them but in this type, it seems like the whole inside of the house would be loaded at once. The second type would to have the stairs be in the background that you could walk right past and then press a button in front of them to go up or down stairs, loading the next story of the house. I kind of prefer the second method but am curious to how you guys are going to tackle this part.

I don't think it has to do with the perspective at all.  I've played and enjoyed games in both perspectives, including side view games without that sort of progression.  I think it has to do with level design, plain and simple.  In other words, our level design is not like a typical Metroidvania game, because those are hand-crafted specifically to emphasize movement-ability increases and backtracking.  It's a cool model, but not something we want to do here; excessive backtracking is the last thing we'd want to encourage.
That does make sense.

Huge variety = yes.  Also, we're not removing any mechanics, it's all a visual thing.  So the effects that you could get with swords, or a gatling gun, or whatever else will be represented as magic instead.  It simplifies certain things, and mainly is a boon to the art.  But with the switch to magic-only we haven't ditched any gameplay mechanics if that makes you feel any better.
Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I like it, instead of have physical guns you have magical ones.

I never use elixers in FF, either.  And ethers only in the few games where you can buy those in shops, and those rarely even then.  Here's the thing that separates AVWW from them: whenever you get a new raw gem, you also get gem dust as a byproduct.  You can then make limited-use scrolls and traps with that dust that you got essentially for free.  That stuff has the same tier as the gems do, so that means that within about 5 hours those are all going to be underpowered.  So there's really a 5 hour timeframe where you probably want to use those scrolls and traps in, because after that you'll have a much better set of scrolls and traps that you also get as a byproduct of having more raw gems.
I kind of wish that elixirs didn't even exist in those games because I never use them and then would have them sitting in my inventory being hoarded.

Anyway, I actually think the idea of having these limited items become weaker later on will actually be a good reason to use them so you don't have tons of nearly useless weak spell scrolls sitting in your inventory.

I have to say that the change really doesn't seem so bad anymore. Really excitied to see some more in the next diaries.

EDIT: You must also be glad you didn't do a public alpha release, I bet this change would have caused a lot more anger if people had been playing the game.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 09:23:46 pm by c4sc4 »

Offline x4000

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I actually started to think about this after my post and it made me kind of excited. For indoor stuff, how I imagined it and it seems like what you are going to do is that you will enter a building from the outside and now are in, lets say, a house. Now lets say you are in a hallway and to your left is a living room are and to the right is some stairs. Now lets say in the background is another door, similar to the one you entered the house from, that you could enter in the same way to get to the kitchen area. If this is what you are planning to do then it does seem like something that hasn't really been done before and seems like it would make for some awesome exploration, especially in some large buildings.

Yep, exactly.  If you think about how the mansion is constructed in Maniac Mansion, it's something along those lines.

Speaking of stairs, I'm curious to how you will do them inside buildings. My two ways of thinking about how they would work would be either having physical stairs you climb or background stairs you "enter." It seems the problem with having physical stairs in plane with your character would be that you couldn't have something behind them but in this type, it seems like the whole inside of the house would be loaded at once. The second type would to have the stairs be in the background that you could walk right past and then press a button in front of them to go up or down stairs, loading the next story of the house. I kind of prefer the second method but am curious to how you guys are going to tackle this part.

We aren't going to have a huge number of stairs, mainly it will be more interesting things like magical elevators and such.  That said, for the main stairs I've been thinking about, they'll work like slopes outside, just with stair graphics instead.  So, that means that they only get placed at the ends of rooms leading upwards, for instance.  Doing background stairs that you press confirm to go into is a good idea as well, and we'll probably also do that.  There's actually a couple of other stair models that I'd been thinking about, but most of them are Castlevania-ish and those just get frustrating.  I'd rather do some more interesting stuff, and make the interiors of buildings feel more unique to this game.  That doesn't mean no stairs, it just means that everything isn't stairs. :)

Anyway, I actually think the idea of having these limited items become weaker later on will actually be a good reason to use them so you don't have tons of nearly useless weak spell scrolls sitting in your inventory.

Yeah, or at least that they were designed differently.  I wind up never using things like Red Fang or similar, too, which cast limited-use spells.  I just hate letting go of that stuff, and so never use it at all.  I view this as my chance to Do It Right, because the idea of those things appealed to me but the implementation didn't.  Have I mentioned that I have never liked a space-based RTS game before?  That's why I did AI War, because I wanted a space RTS that would appeal to me, when other's didn't.  The fact that other games have done something repeatedly that I feel is poor is actually a big motivator for me.

I have to say that the change really doesn't seem so bad anymore. Really excitied to see some more in the next diaries.

Awesome!

EDIT: You must also be glad you didn't do a public alpha release, I bet this change would have caused a lot more anger if people had been playing the game.

That's kind of a circular thing, honestly -- we didn't release it in alpha because we weren't yet happy enough with it to let others get their hands on it.  And we made this change because we still weren't happy with it.  If we'd already been in public alpha, that would have been because we were so happy with it we were ready to share it with others, and thus a change of that severity wouldn't have had reason to be contemplated.

That's also the reason we don't take preorders before people can try the game: if people had put down money on this game and then we made a change like this, they'd feel betrayed.  As it stands, they can reevaluate and later try the demo and decide if they want to preorder or order or not.  If not, that's no hard feelings, no game is for everyone.

Expansions are different because they're mainly for the hardcore fans of the base game anyhow, so with AI War we put those on preorder as soon as we start work at all.  Hasn't ever been a problem.  This would have definitely been, though, several times over!
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Offline eRe4s3r

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I hope crafting is done smartly and cleverly.. because... i am the "hoarding" type when it comes to stuff like that (potions, elixirs, chems, food). Not sure how many others know what i mean, but lets speculate here, if theres an item i could craft that kills all enemies in a level (bosses and all) then i would not use it until I had 2 of them. Its some gene-sourced fear of running out of that all-important thing when you really need it.

Maybe worse when the ingredients are really difficult to obtain, then i probably wouldn't ever use it (or only at the last boss) (even though i may have crafted 3 or 4 by the time i am through the game)

I want to specifically mention that i think there needs to be a crafting system that allows us to use "foreign" materials (Tier 1 crafting stuff) in a Tier 2 recipe which would add some kind of ADDITIONAL effect boost. So that useless crafting materials we still have, don't have to be wasted

As for settlements, naturally i think that crafting should play a large part there as well. Not just npcs should be able to build things, but the player himself ought to craft particular super-powerful buildings or "settlement things" with ingredients. Things that affect npcs, that npcs react to and talk about.

Particularly the main point for me on this game is how dynamic, free, open the npc's react, act and communicate to the things the player does (for them, near them, around them, to them or against them) a multitude of things could play a role here like (player establishes water supply in a settlement but restricts it to a certain "part" of a settlements population etc. ) the more choice the player has the more reactions npcs can show...

Can't wait for the game to hit beta so that we can suggest more complex stuff for the npc/settlement mechanic ;p

Just wanted to say that the side-view works really well with the art-style imo. It looks entirely not-pixel-artsy which is a welcome change. The fuzzy glow works particularly nicely in dense environments (snowy scene particularly looks amazing) nearly painted. So yep ;P Just random ramblings..

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Offline x4000

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Thanks for that! And yep, I think you'll like what we do with crafting. I have the exact same hoarding tendencies as you, so we're coming from the same place. Seems like a lot of folks do!

Oh, and for old tier crafting stuff: you can mix tiers if you want, and it hives you the average tier. Sometimes this is good to do. We are also thinking of letting you break down old raw gems into gem dust for use in lower-tier scrolls and traps, which remain useful longer. And we are definitely having some ways that you can donate your old equipment to npcs in your settlements, and they will... well, that's still a secret until beta. ;) it's more fun to discover this one as you play, but anyway the npcs will make good use of any old stuff you want to give them.

So, depending, there should always be 2-3 good options for what to do with old stuff. :)
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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It's good to have some recycling sort of use for old stuff, but hopefully avoid using old stuff to give an actual bonus to new stuff. Then you get into a situation where I may feel like I have to go back and farm low level areas just to get a boost to my newer things. Although I'm sure you already thought of that as well.

Offline x4000

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Yep, it doesn't boost new stuff.  We're doing our best to discourage farming old areas (or farming in general), but I'm sure we'll have to make some tweaks during heavier playtesting.  Players can be so clever about some of that sort of thing, but we've thought of most of the obvious cases already, I think.  Knock on wood!
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Offline superking

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a thought, couldnt you keep the isometric part for certain activities? ie, boss battles

Offline x4000

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a thought, couldnt you keep the isometric part for certain activities? ie, boss battles

That's at least twice as much work as doing one or the other.  Also: the isometric stuff is gone, it no longer exists in the current codebase.  It's not like we threw away the old codebase, we still have it, but the application has evolved substantially without that top-down stuff.  It's well and truly gone from this game, sorry!
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