Author Topic: A Valley Without Wind #14 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part Two (Crafting!)  (Read 6589 times)

Offline x4000

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Original: http://christophermpark.blogspot.com/2011/08/valley-without-wind-14-beta-gameplay.html


This time the video is all narration, and covers just about everything I would have said in a blog post after this past week.  So very short post this time, and here's the video:



Video Notes
Gameplay footage after about 30 weeks of development.  No music this time, sorry, as the voiceover runs throughout and is already condensing a lot of info into these twelve minutes.  The volume on the voiceover is better this time; thanks for mentioning it last time!

The first half of this video runs through some tech unlocks, three crafting interfaces, and the inventory.  We know this is stuff people have been wanting to see in action for ages, so we're really excited to finally be able to share it.

The second half of this video shows a bit of the new worldbuilding stuff from the last week.  Specifically, it shows indoor lighting, a very few of the new interior room shapes, as well as showing what happens when you die.  I venture foolishly into a region 6 levels higher than myself, and get killed in one hit when a boss reaches me.

Side note: the very platformy nature of the wind shelter area where I find the lone NPC and put up the wind shelter is somewhat temporary.  The general structure is right, as it makes for efficient organization for settlements compared to what was shown in the first video, but the visuals need some work to make them more cohesive.

Also shown in this video are a number of new or revised spells.  The energy lance visual effeect I could never get looking the way that I wanted because something that moves that fast doesn't do well with a purely particle-based system.  So now we have the energy pulse instead; replacing the visuals but keeping the function.

The new circle of fire and ice cross are the first of new directional kinds of spells, and then the launch rock spell is the first of a new trajectory-based spell system.  Also shown is the heat suit, briefly; although since it was used in an ice age region it was a liability rather than a help.

Until Next Time!
More details and another video coming sometime in the next few weeks.  But definitely not weekly in general, because it cuts into actual development time too much.  But this was definitely a video that has been a long time coming, so we're really excited to share this one in particular.  Enjoy!
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Offline realcoolguy

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This is great - one quick question - is the pool of characters you have to choose from infinite (I die really stupidly 5 times very quickly) is there a game over?  Or is there always someone else to choose?
[Don't give away anything you're not intending to here, just wondering if there is a way to 'lose']

Offline x4000

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Never a game over! You can choose from npcs in your town to take over -- and they are finite if you do -- or there are always "wanderers" that don't technically exist in the game until you choose them. There is no way to lose this game, ever. Or win, in the global sense. And yet you will always have something to strive for, goals big and small, and you'll fail a lot of the time as well as succeeding.  We're trying to build something kind of like a regular game flow into an infinite progression of history, basically; I've written about that in more depth elsewhere.

Glad you like it!
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Blog Post: http://kingisaaclinksr.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/thoughts-on-latest-avww-blog-avww-14-beta-gameplay-footage-part-two-crafting/

Excerpt: 

To be honest, because I’m under the weather there isn’t much to say other than watch the vid :) .  Its constantly looking better and better.  Amused that Chris got pwned by the boss though :P


But yeah, there really isn't much to say in this one.  Just keep up the work!

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Offline OobleckTheGreen

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I have to admit: I've been really on the fence with this game. I am a huge AI Wars fan with all the expansions, so I've been really wanting to like this game, but up until now, I've been unsure. But this video did a better job, I think, than the last video, in showing the depth of the game, which is significant for a platformer. I'm of the "More Complexity = Good" ilk, so count me in as officially intrigued.

My issues with the game, thus far, are these:

- The music just doesn't seem to mesh with the world you have created. It's good music - Pablo is a talented musician - it just often doesn't feel like exploring music. I've made this comment before, and I think from the responses that my opinion is in the minority. But, if you can turn the music off, leave sound effects on, and play iTunes, this is a win-win.
- The jumping animation is not my favorite. It's something you do in the game alot, and seeing the same animation over and over is somewhat tedious. I think some variance might be good.
- The sound effects for the spells need some work, in my opinion. I noticed a few of the spells shared the same sound, and like the jumping animation, it wears on me after a bit. I think one easy solution might be to (1) make sure spells don't share the same sound, and (2) program in a small frequency / amplitude variance generator for spells, something that would alter the original sound file by slightly raising / lowering the volume, and by slightly altering the frequency up or down. Each time the spell was fired, it would sound ever so slightly different than the previous one. This would give some texture to the sound.

I'm going to return to this post later, because I have a lot of good things to say about this game, too. I don't want you to feel I'm all criticism - I'm planning on buying the game. But, unfortunately it's getting very late here and I better get to bed. So I leave you with my top criticisms, and please take them in the spirit they were intended: constructive.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 01:58:43 am by OobleckTheGreen »

Offline Ixiohm

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Great video overall  :D

However I two criticisms:

1. I really don't like all the platforms in the surface tunnels. I think, it would be okay with some platforms, but right now there are far to many for my liking. It would also be okay to have more platforms in some areas, if you at the same time seeded in other objects that hinted at somebody occupying that space before you came there. 

2. Looks strange that the bats are able to fly thru the surface layer at 09:52 in the video.

Looking forward to the next video and the beta even more so  :)

Offline Nenad

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Great video overall  :D

1. I really don't like all the platforms in the surface tunnels. I think, it would be okay with some platforms, but right now there are far to many for my liking. It would also be okay to have more platforms in some areas, if you at the same time seeded in other objects that hinted at somebody occupying that space before you came there. 

Yeah, I agree with this one. Maybe save every third ledge of the existing ones? It seems a little too dense now.

Offline Nice Save

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Looks great! A few questions:

1. When turning in a spellbook, can you come back out and have another shot with the same book if you don't like the options you're presented with? It looked like you got the level-up before you made your choice, which makes me think no.

2. Are there any consequences for attacking an ally like the robot you hit with the rock? If so, is it only when they die by your hand or on any hit?

3. When you were shooting the esper in the dark I noticed that when it died, its health bar stayed the same as it was before the killing blow for a few seconds while the death animation played (presumably, but hidden by the dark). Are there any plans to make it clearer that the creature is dead in those few seconds? I would hate to waste any precious precious mana on dead enemies.

4. Apart from lights, are there any advantages or disadvantages to destroying background objects? e.g to gain resources, to set them on fire to damage enemies trying to pass, etc. I noticed you mentioned tactical cover in relation to these, how does that work? Were you just referring to the sieze spell we saw a while back, or do they provide some kind of cover with no input from the player?

5. It looked like the chunk transfer invincibility happened when passing through doors as well, is this correct? Are there any exceptions?

Offline Nalgas

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From YouTube:

Quote
    Is there a way to passively regenerate mana? with higher level armor/items?
    iSTALKforCASH 10 hours ago

    @iSTALKforCASH Almost definitely not, as? that would be like passively regenerating ammo in most FPS games, I feel. Kind of begs the question of why have ammo if it just comes back passively.
    x4ooo 10 hours ago

Works fine in Borderlands, as an example.  You can find weapons or get mods that let you regen ammo, but more slowly than you consume it during a fight, so you can't just keep shooting non-stop forever, and it's generally at the cost of other stats/abilities that would let you kill things more quickly or improve your defenses or whatever, and ammo drops are always a much quicker way to get more bullets.  It can be really nice to have as an option, though, depending on your play style.  If you're willing to sacrifice a bit of power or defense, being able to squeeze out a few extra shots before you run out does not suck, and in an emergency when you're completely out and a bunch of stuff is charging at you, taking cover and firing off a few potshots with what little you can regen before they get to you can occasionally save your life.

Similarly, tons of games have regenerating mana that's balanced, even ones that tend to involve conserving resources.  The rate just has to be limited compared to consumption, and anything that grants it and/or increases it comes with some sort of tradeoff, whether it's just not getting the positive benefit of using a different piece of equipment/ability or even a penalty.  To me, the biggest problem is usually that having slow regeneration can encourage some people to sit around and wait until they're healed rather than use potions/healers/whatever, which is pretty boring, but they (read: I) do it anyway.  Of course, having no regeneration at all means you're stuck using heaps and heaps of potions like in Diablo, which is completely ridiculous in its own way...

Offline x4000

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Some notes:

1. Glad you guys like it, in general. :)

2. Yes you can turn of music, or sound, or both, as in all our games.

3. When it comes to the jumping animation being the same every time, or the casting animation for that matter, I find it really odd that some folks expect variance there.  I can't think of a game that I've played that was 2D that had variance for that, but maybe I'm old school.  But even the newer Mario and DKC games, etc -- it's the same every time.  Samus always had two different jumps, spin jump and regular, but those were literally different functions, they weren't just two different visuals for the same thing.  I just don't understand where the expectation of duplicate-but-different animations is even coming from, in complete seriousness.

4. All the sound effects from the spells are different from one another at the moment.  No two ones have the same one, and I think they've come out really well; we just finished redoing a lot of them, actually.  Youtube munges up the sound a fair bit, as the visuals, I should note.  Some of the sounds were sounding downright squeaky in the video, but that's not at all how they really sound.  Not sure why that happened.

5. In terms of all the platforms in the surface tunnels, yes other people have lived in these things, which is part of why this makes sense; they are meant to look kind of ladder-y.  Not only are their abandoned homes and things on the surface, but you'll find those sorts of things in the surface tunnels as well, and there are also evil homes and towers and hides and the like underground.  This is a much more vertical and underground society than in a lot of games, so I think it fits.  That said, there are some areas that will use fewer platforms.  But that makes it harder to get around, substantially so.

6. Bats, and some various other flying enemies, are able to fly on a different z plane than the ground.  Same as in a lot of games, including most Castlevania games, etc.  With the intricate way that the grounds are set up, and the limited turning radius intentionally built into bats, it's the only way to really make them function in a way that looks organic.

7. When turning in a spellbook, no you cannot come back out and get another shot with the same book.  If you come back out, you'll notice the "retort" next to the guardian.  Your book is gone, but the retort remains.  You can talk to the retort to get the same options again and choose which one you want.  The retorts solve some multiplayer challenges with these, as well as preventing re-rolling (which would kind of defeat the purpose of their being a limited set of choices in the first place).

8. In terms of accidentally damaging an ally, I don't plan to make any consequences.  If you accidentally do something like that and everyone reacts like you're Satan, I really hate that in games.  "Look, dude, it was an accident!  ACCIDENT!" ;)   But if you KILL the ally, then that will have various consequences that are not in the game yet and which I don't want to reveal.  But the game will keep track of killed NPCs, etc, for your current character, and other characters will start thinking they are a real... problem... if they are just this wandering murder machine.

9. Good point on the esper health bar, it should go red instead of green.  It does go to zero, but maybe that's not clear in the video.  It stays up while the esper dies as a convenience so that you can see what you killed when you one-shot weaker stuff.

10. Sometimes background objects have things in them that you will want.  Only specific types of objects, so you'll learn to recognize them and won't just bulldoze everything everywhere you go.  But beyond that, they have benefits such as with the seize spell letting you block enemies with them, etc.  Some others will have some special effect on dying, like tanks of gas exploding, etc.  In terms of hanging lights, they block spells even without your using the seize spell, but they don't block enemies or characters.  So that makes them pretty different from most other things in the background, in an interesting way; you can use them for cover against ranged foes without expending MP to do so.

11. Yes, chunk transfer invincibility happens whenever you change chunks, no exceptions.  Through doors and whatever else.  That way you don't get insta-gibbed by a rhino or a boss if you're playing on a higher region level than you should be, unless you do something stupid like I did.

12. Regarding the youtube comments, I posted more responses there to that line of topic, but I've run out of time now and have to run.

Later! :)
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #14 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part Two (Crafting!)
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2011, 12:04:42 pm »
Shaping up nicely.

Regarding the little ladders in caves, functionally and thematically I can't fault them. And aesthetically I think they work too, actually, but a thought to making them less intrusive - post-1.0 I imagine - might be to draw them as an obviously-climbable part of the background, with a accompanying set of climbing animations. Or ropes and hanging. Or all three, different in different places. Anyway, for right now they work really well regardless!

Offline pierre dupon

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #14 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part Two (Crafting!)
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2011, 06:55:43 pm »
Shaping up nicely.

Regarding the little ladders in caves, functionally and thematically I can't fault them. And aesthetically I think they work too, actually, but a thought to making them less intrusive - post-1.0 I imagine - might be to draw them as an obviously-climbable part of the background, with a accompanying set of climbing animations. Or ropes and hanging. Or all three, different in different places. Anyway, for right now they work really well regardless!

I agree. Those ladders were definitely necessary from a gameplay point of view, and I think they add a lot compared to other 2d explorer games. But having obviously human-made elements in natural environments looks wrong unless you justify it - thinking about it, that wouldn't be too hard given that the world is post-apocalypse. I'd love to see footholds and such in the backgrounds though, because nobody would build ladders to nowhere like in the video. :)

Also, the game seems a bit... easy? I don't mean the mobs aren't tough - some of them clearly are - just that there are no overriding challenges beyond those mobs. I appreciate the game is in its infancy at the moment, so I'll reserve judgement till release date (or later, judging by how good you guys are with updates and such), but what other obstacles and challenges do you have planned beyond terrain navigation and mobs? And what goals should the player strive towards?





Offline Cyborg

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #14 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part Two (Crafting!)
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2011, 08:26:12 pm »
Also, the game seems a bit... easy? I don't mean the mobs aren't tough - some of them clearly are - just that there are no overriding challenges beyond those mobs. I appreciate the game is in its infancy at the moment, so I'll reserve judgement till release date (or later, judging by how good you guys are with updates and such), but what other obstacles and challenges do you have planned beyond terrain navigation and mobs? And what goals should the player strive towards?

I had a hard time with this for months, literally months. I think this should be a prime communication point for our developers here, when it comes time to do the interviews with the gaming sites. A lot of people are going to ask, so what is my goal?

I could be totally wrong, but I think the answer is that the goal is whatever you are setting out to do. I know, that sounds like a copout answer, but I think it's sort of like an open world adventure, where you can go in any direction you like, becoming some powerful wizard that seeks out new life and new civilizations, that boldly goes where... Wait, I mean a powerful wizard that takes on the challenges of this shattered world.

For me, my "goal" is to traverse the lava pits (hardest spot in the game allegedly), invade fortresses and smack the crap out of some overlords. Once I have done these things, I will feel the sense of achievement of having attained my goal. Does this mean the credits roll? Probably not, but maybe by that time we will have an expansion if it sells well. I also expect that accomplishing these things will be entertaining, fun in multiplayer, sometimes comedic, and worth the price of admission.

Kind of like how minecraft and terraria never end, neither will this. Does that help?

I watched the videos, and I really like the ladders. I had a visceral reaction to the previous video, but this is an elegant solution that really makes traversing caves a lot more fun, although I hope that it doesn't make it too easy. It's something that will need to be tested. It really hasn't been said whether or not the challenge is supposed to be part platformer, in which case this is against that completely. Not that I object.

The crafting, I don't know yet. I'm not typically a crafter in any game, because it always feels like the items that I craft are either impossible to find and require playing the game like a second job to get (e.g. final fantasy 13, World of Warcraft), or they are much weaker than random drops, which makes the time investment feel less rewarding. Probably will need to be tested to make it more fun. I like the idea of rolling from new spell books to get a choice of reward, but some of the other structures will need equal levels of refinement to make them fun.

One added edit:

In regards to the animations (this is some constructive criticism so please take it as such), there are a couple things you immediately notice. Really, I think we need to have the graphics discussion.

The first point is that when the graphics model was redefined to be two-dimensional only, it solved a lot of problems. There just isn't enough money to have a graphic development team, and frankly what they have done with what they have is exceptional. The backgrounds, weather, the doodads, structures, and the spells all look amazing.

There are two things which are not amazing. The first is that the models for the animations are really limited in that there are only a couple poses. I think that for a player to understand the action they are doing, context, as well as thrill factor in pulling off moves, multiple models are advantageous. If you are going to bring up Metroid, you have to remember that she also had rotation. That motion which allowed you to spring out at any time to perform an attack. What we have so far in this game is fairly static, limited poses which don't really have that organic feel.

The second thing about the models are that one way in which players feel accomplishment is through the modification of the characters. So far, the way that being addressed this by giving you more spells to cast, but I think a lot of people want terraria where the armor models change as do the weapons. They want their character to reflect the growth (also known as time investment) as they traverse the world, and they also want other people to recognize their accomplishments by looking at how badass they appear with all of their gear. The answer would be, this isn't a gear game, and there is a limited graphics budget so to speak, but this is why people are asking. Chris, if you wonder why... That's why. That's what graphics mean in a reward system, not just in the realism department but from the achievement perspective.

Finally, a lot of the interiors need some decoration. I think you mentioned that already, but it would help differentiate hallways and interiors if there were some pictures on the wall, indentations, or anything really to make it look different and memorable when exploring. If all hallways look the same, it's going to require the map. If you use graphics appropriately, it could work with human memory.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 08:41:39 pm by Cyborg »
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Offline getter77

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #14 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part Two (Crafting!)
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2011, 09:58:41 pm »
-I'm generally OK with "ladders"  but unless my eyes were playing tricks on me---said "ladders" appeared to have far too many and densely packed rungs given the apparent size of people and general jumping prowess.  I'd also like to see these "pre-placed" ones, if not the player created ones perhaps down the line, to come across as more of an appropriate mini-warping of whatever the background texture is.   Crystal walls---crystal mini-ledges/foodholds/whathaveyou.

-Echoing on the animation end, part of this is a tad uncanny valley I think.  In that, I recall some earlier reasoning along "anime/cartoon" lines in terms of making use of effects and whatnot to eschew complicated motions and whatnot and that something along those lines was a thing to strive for.  Conditioning being what it is though, that doesn't seem to be working all the way in this case due to the "realistic" 3D model style for the humanoids at the very least as those long-standing animation notions were 2D derived and by now rather imprinted----even if the latter folk coming up on years were on digital instead of cel it still holds.  This was why I'd mentioned the whole "rotoscopic" sensibilities thing from a ways back---as the visual style here is closest to the likes of classic Prince of Persia FAR moreso than, say, Terraria, and I don't know that people existed in this world that got terribly up in arms about the jumping animations and whatnot in Prince of Persia.  The "digital person" movement of those years and a bit later that died out (In my mind due to mismanagement and tech development wanting to pull in a different direction like a dog chasing a shiny ball, not so unlike the whole Polygon/Voxel side of things now coming to a head again...) on the likes of the 3DO, CDi, Jaguar, etc were, in hindsight, the first candidates in "Uncanny Valley" syndrome to actually clear at least a hurdle of audience acceptance via the rotoscopic movement notions.

So yeah, I essentially see it as either finding this thing I've yet to find myself and can't believe there isn't at least some project out there that has tried to walk the notion forward into modern times/tech, throw in a ton more model animations outright(Not happening), or Double Down:  More exaggerated/dramatic special effects to go along with even "mundane" movements to where all that is likely noticed is the flash of color/shimmer/etc as opposed to the specific mechanical motions that are perhaps best left "hidden" so that the focus can be returned to the environ and that cool thing you just did of a somehow magical nature.

-For visual doings I suppose it depends.  In the video, the armor change was fairly distinct, so mucking around with such notions could serve as a good way to allow for people who want to visually showcase aside from various glows or some such.  Another way to do that and perhaps save on the models is some sort of "symbol hierarchy" that could be emblazoned somewhere prominently on whatever overall outfit model there is that would hold some relevant meaning as to capabilities and whatnot.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 10:01:23 pm by getter77 »
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Offline tigersfan

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #14 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part Two (Crafting!)
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2011, 01:14:10 am »
So, here's a question I don't think has been asked yet, and if it has, I'm sorry. How much notice are we going to get about the release of beta? Like, are you guys just going to decide after some massive coding session late into the night "Hey! I think we're ready!" and have beta released 12 hours later? Or, is there going to be a few days (weeks?) between the time that you decide the game is where you want it for beta and the actual webstore page taking our money?