Author Topic: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)  (Read 12019 times)

Offline Flatfingers

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2011, 02:06:18 am »
Something else I've been mulling over is displaying health bars above anything that takes damage.

It's a commonplace UI mechanic for making the gameplay work -- players need a way to know what effects their actions have on other parts of the gameworld. This mechanic is also implemented with real consistency in AVWW so far, which is something I normally love. It applies to enemies, to the player character, and even (if I'm remembering correctly) to rocks.

And yet... it must be admitted that "health bar" graphics appearing over objects is purely a concession to gameplay. It can't be explained in any gameworld context because it doesn't exist in the gameworld -- you can't even explain it away with "it's just magic" because it doesn't look like magic. It looks like what it is: a piece of user interface intended to accomplish the necessary function of conveying damage information, regardless of what it may do to world-immersiveness for some players.

I'm practical enough to accept and even defend the necessity of presenting tactical information to the player. But I'm also one of those oddballs for whom "immersiveness" matters, particularly in a game that tries to simulate important elements of a world in which people live and act. So I get the need for some kind of damage information display. At the same time, I wonder if there might be a way to present that information that is equally effective while being more "in the world" of the game.

Think about how blocks look in Minecraft when you hit them with a pick: as they take more damage, they display more cracks. It's not necessary to have a floating damage number or health bar; the "state" of the object can be clearly communicated within the world of the game.

Consider something similar in AVWW for representing damage to characters and objects. Given its pacing, three or four states would probably be enough: one normal, one scarred, one torn-up, and one smoking ruins. Again, this would be consistent across all objects that can take damage, but now it would also be plausible within the world of the game.

The hard questions are:
  • Would this be equally as effective in the middle of a fight for communicating damage information as a floating health bar?
  • Would the payoff in immersiveness that some (but not all) gamers care about be worth the cost to re-do the existing damage communication system?
Comments are welcome, as always.

Offline Nalgas

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2011, 06:14:16 am »
6. In terms of the labels on the doors, trust me -- that's super needed.  When you're running fast, you can't stop to see a little GUI icon.  Also, if there's a door on either side of me, ten feet on either side, and one is the door I want and one is not... which is which?  Without the icons directly on the door, I have no freaking clue.  It was incredibly, intensely, frustrating.  Nobody would want to play with that sort of handicap in practice, I can't imagine.

The icons on the doors themselves are definitely a good idea, and some quick and easy way to distinguish between paths is important, given the degree of interconnectedness of everything (tangent: While watching the map in the lower right in the video, I rather quickly/abruptly went, "Dah!  It's a graph!" as soon as you got underground.  Heh.).  My only concern was with the full length text descriptions popping up right in the middle of the screen.  I'm all in favor of having that information readily available in some way, though, because it does seem like it'll be important.

Quote from: x4000
Bosses
We do have bosses in the game, and you can actually see me kill a couple of them.  Look for the skelebots that I have to fire lots of fireballs into, and which have little names above themselves (or really, a serial number in the case of skelebots) instead of just saying "Skelebot" above their health bar popup.

That said, I don't want to give the impression that the bosses in this game will just be regular monsters with buffed stats.  We will be doing that for what I guess I would call "micro bosses," so in that sense the video is a good representation of how those will work.

Micro Bosses
These micro bosses have buffed stats and are actually more unique in their stats in general compared to their non-boss kin.  They may have custom behaviors at some point, but probably not before beta if at all.  So in terms of bosses, these are really kind of underwhelming, right?  They're what I'd been referring to as "named monsters," and they are minor and common.

I must admit I never really noticed you fought these.

As used in several mmo games, you may wanna consider adding an icon by their health bars (As they take longer to kill) to really distinguish them fromt "normal" mobs.  For example wow has a silver dragon curved around icon for elite, gold for boss. And even have their health bars up constantly, rather than just when you hit them (As I noticed health bar don't display before they take damage)

Some way to tell them apart is probably not a bad idea and I suspect is particularly useful to people playing above their level, when not noticing something like that (or worse, not having a way to tell) is much more of a problem.

I always thought the way Titan Quest did it was kind of funny.  The named/hero monsters had a gold star floating over their heads so you could pick them out of the crowd, because they tended to be a substantially larger threat to you.  That in itself is nothing special.  The part that amused me was that after you killed them, the star, which was just a UI element included for player convenience, would fall off and land on the ground next to their corpse, completely breaking the fourth wall.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 07:16:32 am by Nalgas »

Offline HitmanN

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 07:09:55 am »
If there's already been talk about the following, then sorry for repeating. (I haven't followed the forums very actively lately...)

What I found very distracting and inconsistent is the way the player character moves. Not talking about the animation, but the way the character needs to speed up for a moment when starting to move, but when stopping it's like hitting a wall. It looks unnatural, and I know I would find it irritating to not have a consistent feel to the movement when playing.

As I see it, either the stopping should also take a moment of deceleration, or the acceleration time when starting to move would need to be significantly reduced to match with the ability to stop instantly. Visually I would prefer the former (maybe some sliding, even more so downhill), but gameplay -wise the latter would probably be better, so that the player can focus on other, more important aspects than waiting for the character to speed up while having bats on his a**.  :P

Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 09:03:34 am »
Today's notes. ;)

1. In terms of trying to reduce UI elements, that's something I'm always in favor of, when feasible -- I definitely start with that premise and then start thinking about how to get the UI to work.  You might notice that our UI in general is a lot smaller than many comparable games.  That said, when it comes to health bars I don't see any way around that for this game that would be clear or even technically feasible.  Minecraft is using cubes for everything, so that means that they can just layer a second texture -- damage texture -- on the side of said cube.  It doesn't get any easier than that, technically speaking -- Minecraft is quite technically impressive in many ways, but it's also design-wise impressive in its elegant simplicity.

When you move away from cubes into more complex 3D objects, the damage maps are still possible, but more complex.  When you move to sprite-based graphics such as what we have, doing that becomes really challenging, because of the need for alpha masking, etc.  There are some shaders that actually would let us do some on-GPU damage masks that would basically poke holes in objects, but the quality of that is likely to vary heavily, and it would also raise the system requirements substantially for that one feature.

Suffice it to say, I don't think it's feasible, which is why I put in the health bars.  Originally for things like plants we just had them flash red instead of doing a health bar, but I found that a lot more immersion-breaking than the health bars.  I think that health bars are such a common trope that to your average gamer they're as invisible as score popups.  They are to me, anyway.  Right now that's not really the sort of thing I can focus on anyway, I have to add, because actually finishing the game and getting to beta has to take precedence over something like this unless it happens to be easy, or is really jarring in the case of something like the action popups (which definitely need to be addressed, as formerly noted).  It's always a case by case basis, but for now I can't think of anything better for the health display, at least.

2. In terms of the bosses, most bosses will look different enough that you will know it's a boss simply by what it looks like.  In-game, the music will actually be different for bosses, too, letting you know one is there.  The only ones where there would be any question are with the micro-bosses (as opposed to mini or full bosses) like the skelebot bosses you saw (or rather missed) me fight.  All that said, we will have little icons by the health bar showing things like elemental resistances/weaknesses and such which will be boss-specific, and that should basically add that final visual clue that you're looking for.

3. Yes, it's definitely a dungeon graph, not a dungeon map.  Scale has no meaning in it, etc, it's all about showing relative connections.  I was wondering who was going to mention that first. ;)  It's the most compact, efficient, clear way to visualize the data, I've found -- I tried using more complex visualization methods that would allow scale to persist, but that then interfered with directionality and increased the size of the graphs by 500-4000%, thanks to the vagaries of graph untangling algorithms.  Good eye!

4. In terms of the player movement, there was discussion on that, but I don't think here -- I think that was on Youtube or the blog, actually and I think reddit, too.  What I've done in the latest build is speed up the character acceleration 2x and then a further 1.75x, so that it feels a lot more snappy to start moving (that was annoying even me, though it hadn't raised to the level of consciousness yet), and then there's now a deceleration that is equal in rate to the acceleration.  It definitely feels much better.  In terms of a visual sliding motion, I might do that later on, but for now the visuals work well enough there and I have bigger fish to fry -- the acceleration/deceleration tweaks themselves were definitely really important, though.
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2011, 10:41:50 am »
Minor quibble. Currently it looks like the character leans forwards when going down hills, and backwards when going up hills. This is sort of the reverse of how you would distribute your weight in reality. It would probably be better for them to just stay vertical all the time, rather than shifting back and forth like that.

Offline Nalgas

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2011, 11:00:09 am »
Minor quibble. Currently it looks like the character leans forwards when going down hills, and backwards when going up hills. This is sort of the reverse of how you would distribute your weight in reality.

Good call.  I knew something looked wrong about that, but I forgot about it after I'd finished watching the video.

Offline Flatfingers

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2011, 02:15:49 pm »
On using floating health bars to communicate damage status: I understand your points, Chris.

I know most gamers have gotten used to them. I don't even mind them myself in an abstract/simple gamey-game. It's only in games that make an effort to appear and function as worlds that UI immersiveness starts to matter.

And of course there's a technical aspect to this as well. Putting a decal on a stationary door is one thing; dynamically altering the appearance of characters may be something else. Plus, as you point out, every change has to be prioritized relative to the many other things that definitely must be done.

All in all, while I wouldn't mind a less game-y way of showing health status, I completely understand your view. Thanks for taking the time to comment!

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2011, 02:21:18 pm »
Minor quibble. Currently it looks like the character leans forwards when going down hills, and backwards when going up hills. This is sort of the reverse of how you would distribute your weight in reality.

Good call.  I knew something looked wrong about that, but I forgot about it after I'd finished watching the video.

I agree with this, I have never walked this way and I think you only would see it if you were in a weird music video so I would highly suggest cutting that out ;)

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Offline Nice Save

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2011, 04:47:28 pm »
Why not just put the popups below your character's feet? Unless you're jumping or falling, they will only obscure the ground.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2011, 07:01:48 pm »
Why not just put the popups below your character's feet? Unless you're jumping or falling, they will only obscure the ground.

And they could double as advertising opportunities! Imagine the revenue streams! (bad pop-up joke) (sorry) (I'll go away now)

Offline realcoolguy

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2011, 07:08:23 pm »
I don't even think Arcen would sell themselves out that bad ;-)

Well at least until EA buys them, then all bets are off.

And they could double as advertising opportunities! Imagine the revenue streams! (bad pop-up joke) (sorry) (I'll go away now)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 07:10:43 pm by realcoolguy »

Offline Echo35

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2011, 07:19:12 pm »
I don't even think Arcen would sell themselves out that bad ;-)

Well at least until EA buys them, then all bets are off.

And they could double as advertising opportunities! Imagine the revenue streams! (bad pop-up joke) (sorry) (I'll go away now)

*Insert bad DRM and DLC joke here*

Offline Cyborg

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2011, 09:50:37 pm »
some notes as I'm watching:

first, the critique.

1) nameplates are awfully wordy when you are hovering over a door. I think just the destination would be fine, with a color that might hint at difficulty or importance.
2) what are all the barrels on the ground at the beginning? You are jumping across the landscape have some trees…
3) the map needs to be bigger if the screen is that small. I see giant black borders on the top and bottom, which I don't really like, but if we have to have them let's utilize the other screen space.
4) are windstorms just annoying or do they serve a purpose?
5) the running animation is vastly improved. The spellcasting animation is rather weak. I would have gone for a streetfighter, Dragon Ball, name your chi pose. It looks like he's shooting hoops.
6) are you aiming with your mouse? Am I going to be aiming at little bats? for keyboard and game pad support, will you allow Robotron style keys? chasing little targets around the screen with my mouse will get tiring really quickly. Robotron-style solves that, while still allowing point-and-click for greater precision during boss fights or whenever it's actually necessary.
7) the map on the bottom needs a "you are here" type of marker. That spreadsheet grid doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I get the concept on a high-level, I just don't know where I am on that table.
8) You probably should have cut out the wood jumping as you try to escape the cave. I know that fast travel isn't in yet, but that just gives a cringe. Definitely not a fun moment.

music critique:
1) really good. I think that if there is a boss on the screen, the score needs to go down a few octaves or have its own battle/boss music. It would be a cue to the player something evil is afoot.
2) likewise, if something awesome is on the screen, even the slightest sound that would indicate it, whether it is a sparkle or... Please use the sound to help the player understand the world around.

Positives:
1) I like all of the doodads.
2) the texturing looks great.
3) The running animation actually looks like running.
4) The procedural content is obvious, and it gives the sense of a huge world that is nearly infinite. I like what you did with the building interiors, although I agree that furniture and more stuff inside of them is necessary.
5) Interface keeps improving from earlier iterations. Getting there, but not there yet.
6) great retro music
7) I like spellcasting instead of the close combat mentioned in earlier iterations. I think it works better. I will miss Castlevania whips, but, this is great.
8) The platforms have great potential, although careful it doesn't turn into tediousness. I liked it up until what you did at the end with them.

Keep it up! Great work.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 10:00:18 pm by Cyborg »
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Offline x4000

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2011, 10:03:09 pm »
Various notes:

1. Interesting point on putting the popups under the character.  That actually really helps, although that's probably not going to be all that's needed.  I might need to lock it there under the actual object itself, so that it doesn't move as you move or jump.

2. The "barrels" are just vent pipes, which are a form of scenery in the ice age.

3. Not sure what map is being referred to, the minimap or the regular map or what, but you can adjust the size of the minimap via the settings.  Normally it is actually smaller, but I have it cranked up to something like 1.5x.  Remember, that video is at 1080i; at smaller screen resolutions it is needing to be smaller, so you can set it the way you want.

4. Windstorms have been discussed at length elsewhere, but the short answer is that they prevent your free movement on the world map.  Your construction of wind shelters gives you unfettered movement, but you have to plan it out a bit.

5. Note that the spellcasting animation is varied by player.  That character has one specific one, others have others.  I think at the moment there are 12 in all.  They are all actually martial arts poses of some variety.

6. Yes, I'm aiming with my mouse.  Moving with WASD, and aiming and controlling with the mouse.  Keith plays keyboard-only, though, which means arrow keys (by default) plus number keys to directly trigger spells.  There is a lock-on with the TAB key (again, all these can be changed in settings like AI War keybinds), if you don't want to directly aim.  I find the mouse vastly more fun, though, but to each his or her own.  For the gamepad it works much like the keyboard, although there is a manual aiming mode that you can enable for keyboard or gamepad, and which lets you set the angle you will fire at rather than it being straight-on when it's not targeted on an enemy.  I'm not sure what the robotron style keys means; but note that you don't actually have to click on the bats, you just have to aim in their direction.  The mouse sets your angle of fire, it doesn't cause homing on a specific target.  Though spells can be modified with homing through crests, and there are various AOE spells, too.  Sniping bats with fireballs isn't that hard, but it's also not something that anyone will have to do if they don't want to; there are spells that make much more sense against bats, but that early into the game I didn't have them yet.

7. The you are here marker in the bottom map is the green node in the video.  The graphics on that were really temporary, though, and I've already improved them substantially.  Still more to go, but it's getting there.

8. When there are bosses on the screen, the music is actually different.  That music wasn't being played from the game itself, that was something I layered on later along with the voiceover.  Next video I'll probably do full audio including the music with the sound effects as actually represented in the game, but for this one I wanted to showcase some specific tracks.

9. As noted above, a lot of the sound effects are missing in general so far; Pablo is hard at work on a list of several dozen things we hope to have in by beta.

10. Glad you like the other elements, I think folks will really be pleased with how undergrounds AND interiors have morphed by the next video.  Stuff I've been working on the last couple of days has really brought them an improved feeling, and Erik's put together another 10ish room templates already and is doing more each night, too.
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Offline tigersfan

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Re: A Valley Without Wind #13 - Beta Gameplay Footage Part One (Video)
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2011, 10:58:00 pm »
One comment I have about the sound, please please please don't have any "required" sounds. By that, I mean don't use sound for information in such a way that I will miss something if I have the sound off. I know Pablo's sound track is good, but, I get bored of any music after just a couple listens, so, if I end up playing this game a lot, I"ll want to kill the in-game music and play my own.