Author Topic: The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS  (Read 2321 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 12:51:52 PM »
Here's my thoughts, and this will likely be my only post in this particular thread:

1. It's a good point about the standing stance, I wish I'd thought of that earlier.  I might someday change that some.

2. However, you really don't stand around much, so it seems a pretty minor point.

3. Also, having characters hunch over too much would make their hitboxes fairly misleading, I suspect.

4. The art will always have "room for just a little more improvement."  This sort of improvement is something I do when it is within my grasp, doesn't detract from the rest of the game's development, and actually leads to a better experience.  But in general something massive like "add a lot of frames to all characters for them to have breathing while standing" is just the sort of thing I'd never remotely consider unless I had a team of artists to do it for me.  Imagine yourself sitting down to work on breathing animations for 36 characters for 1-2 days straight, and you'll understand why.

5. There is a distinct point after which visual improvements cease to really matter to the bottom line of a game.  I'm playing Ocarina of Time on the 3DS at the moment, and I love the new way it looks.  Much more modern.  However, the changes, aren't really that notable in other respects, and the game itself isn't actually any better for it.  They spent a lot of time polishing up the art for that game, and that's... whatever.  I bought it because I wanted to play it on a handheld device, not because of that.  So did a lot of people.  But if they had taken that same amount of time they spent polishing the art (which must have been immense), and instead added in more content and side quests and such... holy cow, that game would have sold like hotcakes.  What a system seller it would have been!  Reviewers would have griped about the lack of updated graphics for that classic game, but ultimately nobody in their right mind would choose the art over the content.

6. We are good at content, and programming, and other things of this nature.  Art is something we are less good at.  Consequently, doing things related to art takes us longer for a lesser gain in overall game quality, and the utility of that varies from case to case.  Redoing the skies and the HUD and such was a big win.  Working on cave backgrounds is easy and a big win.  Adding new enemies and spells with cool effects is a big win, because it comes tied with functionality and adds to immersion.  Redoing existing assets endlessly, when it is 100% assured that some people will still think they are crap... there's a limit there to what I'm willing to do.

7. Are we limiting our potential market somewhat by doing this?  I'm not sure.  Maybe?  But if someone cares about graphics above all else, there is no way I could ever make that person my customer to begin with.  I am out to get customers who appreciate new ideas, and fun gameplay, and all those sorts of things.  And I'll give them the best art that is reasonably within my power, and as time progresses I'm getting better at doing that.  But with three weeks left until 1.0, I'm not planning on any substantial revisiting of existing art aside from easy and obvious things like the cave backgrounds.

8. If this game sells like hotcakes and we make millions of dollars, I'll hire a couple of artists to make things look even better.  So the best way to get the quality there to improve is to tell all your friends so that we can afford to get the talent we'd need for something like that. ;)

Hope that makes sense!
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 01:09:30 PM »
5. There is a distinct point after which visual improvements cease to really matter to the bottom line of a game.  I'm playing Ocarina of Time on the 3DS at the moment, and I love the new way it looks.  Much more modern.  However, the changes, aren't really that notable in other respects, and the game itself isn't actually any better for it.

I can't believe that I'm taking this point up to comment on, but here I go.

There has been a few gameplay changes in the 3DS version.
1. You can backwards walk diagonally
2. Side hopping repeatedly is no longer faster than just running forward
3. I'm pretty sure that some of the biggest bugs (those that could corrupt game-state or let you bypass huge amounts of the game) have been fixed
4. I'm sure there is a little new content.
IDK for sure on all of this, I don't have a 3DS, just played the demo in the store and read some about it on advanced speed-running sites

But yea, it's mostly for the new visuals.

Offline x4000

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Re: The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 01:13:41 PM »
Fair enough on those minor improvements -- those are great, though I'd not noticed.  And they did include the master quest (I think), which previously you could only get on the gamecube re-release of OOT (which I also have).  But that's not remotely on the scale I meant in terms of changes, that's just final polish.
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Offline Terraziel

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Re: The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 01:15:05 PM »
Whilst not totally disagreeing there are a number of games that I would pay for straight HD remakes of, despite still thoroughly enjoying the original versions still. Imperium Galactica 2 leaps to mind as a game that is still essentially peerless.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 01:17:47 PM »
Fair enough on those minor improvements -- those are great, though I'd not noticed.  And they did include the master quest (I think), which previously you could only get on the gamecube re-release of OOT (which I also have).  But that's not remotely on the scale I meant in terms of changes, that's just final polish.

Yep, polish. Something to do after the game is released in a good state and you got time. For AVWW, this is not that time.
My point was not that those were substantial changes, but rather stating that the re-release was not just a graphical polish. In other words, just nitpicking.  ;D

Offline zebramatt

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Re: The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 01:35:05 PM »
Whilst not totally disagreeing there are a number of games that I would pay for straight HD remakes of

I'm writing a blog on this at the moment!



As for the changes to Ocarina 3D: yes, they killed the last of the bugs*; changed the way characters move slightly; added polygons to models; redrew textures; included the Master Quest (with bells on**); oh, and made it 3D, obviously. But it's a polished port, nothing more.

*And it wasn't even much of a bug. Basically, on the Gamecube version (on which it was based) if you became an adult for the first time before visiting a specific business deku in the Lost Woods, you would forever be unable to get the final deku nut capacity upgrade. This obviously violates one of modern Zelda's immutable design goals: no upgrade should ever become unavailable to you throughout the entire course of the game. As a completionist, I was over the moon they fixed this - but come on! Definitely polish.

**I'm yet to play this but I understand it's the Master Quest but mirrored and monsters all do 2x damage.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 01:39:00 PM by zebramatt »