Arcen Games

Games => A Valley Without Wind 1 & 2 => Topic started by: Brise Bonbons on June 27, 2012, 12:28:36 PM

Title: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Brise Bonbons on June 27, 2012, 12:28:36 PM
I know the beta patch notes say to hold off on questions, but this is more of a complaint. :) Seriously though, I wanted to mention my concern as early as possible in the event it can be addressed in some way.

In short, I feel that the settlement stockpile is extremely friendly to improvisational group play, where players are coordinating, but not necessarily running around as a party at all times. As a bit of background, I play with old university friends spread across the USA, and while we all have very different schedules, we get together weekly to hang out in a coop multiplayer game and chat. Some of us can be online for most of the evening, some of us can only manage a couple hours, some of us often miss weeks entirely.

The settlement stockpile enabled those of us with more time to go on long spelunking excursions, which we knew would provide crafting materials for the entire group. We could also split up do tasks which seemed interesting to us, say, 3 guys focusing on missions, the other 2 exploring and gathering resources. We never felt forced to all group up at the cave mouth in so-and-so region to stock up for crafting.

Based on what we currently know of 1.04, it seems to me that it will be much harder for players who do not spend as much time on a given server/world to keep up with the continent/world progress. While that fits the generic game model well, one of the things I really enjoyed about AVWW is that it creates a sense of community more than most RPGs, because you know that whatever you're doing, you're helping the progress of the settlement and sharing the resources gathered to further that goal.

I hope that at minimum, there would be some way to trade crafting materials, or perhaps a settlement stash (sort of like an ARPG stash) which players could withdraw from. Or is the phenomenon of one player gathering resources for the whole group something you're trying to curb?

I must admit I'm still a little foggy on the ramifications of all the changes. Perhaps someone can set my mind at ease and show me that I'm panicking without reason here.

P.S. I am very excited for many of the other items in the patch notes, and I think they make sense overall. My concern here is really a selfish one, but I'd hate to see the flexibility that I've just gotten so fond of go away entirely.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: x4000 on June 27, 2012, 12:37:39 PM
In terms of the people who play less, they would indeed have overall lower quantities of the resources.  But making it possible to share those is a good idea; right now that wouldn't be possible.

Bear in mind that crafting is kind of the secondary way of getting spells in the new model, however, so players who are absent for goodly chunks really shouldn't have any trouble keeping up.  And if you wish to share spells with them that you have crafted that are awesome (but you have two awesome ones and only need one), you can now do that (whereas before you couldn't), too.

So a lot of the flexibility is shifted around, but it's still there.  There may be a few snags here and there (gifting resources is one thing I hadn't thought of), so definitely don't hesitate to bring those up as you get time with the new system.  If there are snags we definitely want to smooth those over, but since we haven't finished explaining the new system I figure there are going to be a lot of percieved snags that actually we already thought of and just haven't implemented or written out yet. :)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: LayZboy on June 27, 2012, 12:50:20 PM
And if you wish to share spells with them that you have crafted that are awesome (but you have two awesome ones and only need one), you can now do that (whereas before you couldn't), too.

Yeah you could because they'd have all the resources needed to make the spell right away.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: x4000 on June 27, 2012, 12:52:16 PM
And if you wish to share spells with them that you have crafted that are awesome (but you have two awesome ones and only need one), you can now do that (whereas before you couldn't), too.

Yeah you could because they'd have all the resources needed to make the spell right away.

Well, sort of.  If you figure the spell was just a matter of the spell and not the spell + enchants.  But anyhow, under the new system spells are unique anyhow, so trading is more useful than it would have been under the old system.  But now we're splitting hairs. ;)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: LayZboy on June 27, 2012, 01:01:11 PM
As I only play this game with MouldyK, my shield type typically depended on what type of weapon he was going for on each Continent, be it Earth or Water or Fire, as I would not have to hunt the gems needed to make it. This was our way of "helping each other" along with doing missions one of us might need the resources for each other.

Now we can't share resources I must hunt them myself, and so must he if the role is reversed. How am I supposed to help and be helped now we mus collect everything our selfs? I might as well not bother with multi-player anymore.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: x4000 on June 27, 2012, 01:03:30 PM
See, this is exactly why I was not inviting questions.  The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.  You make a shield, he makes a fire spell.  Nothing different there, unless you and he are not playing at the same time or in the same place.  And in that case you can each choose to seek out complementary spells independently of one another just as easily now as you could before.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: LayZboy on June 27, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 27, 2012, 01:16:39 PM
See, this is exactly why I was not inviting questions.
In words, no, but posting it in a public place will get questions, and I assume you knew that when you did it ;)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: tigersfan on June 27, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

Gathering resources really isn't going to be all that different than it is now. We are considering some better resource trading options, but beyond that, I'm not sure there's much need for more.

If there is after everyone has played the new version, then we'll make the appropriate changes.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Brise Bonbons on June 27, 2012, 02:03:22 PM
Thanks for pointing out the ability to trade spells Chris, I knew there was something I was missing in the new system... :)

It is comforting to know my group is not the only one that made a point of splitting up when playing MP. Much like AI War, I think of AVWW as more a game where multiple players play along side each other with very tightly interwoven strategic goals, but don't always necessarily visit the same areas at the same time. So obviously to my play style, the removal of the settlement stash feels like a nerf. I think that's fine, just pointing out where my selfish interests lie.

I think trading spell gems certainly offers a workaround, but it does remove some agency and choice from the player who is reliant on the "crafter" to supply them with spells. That is an interesting dynamic in itself, evoking some of the reliance on crafters that oldschool MMORPGs had. It also means that if me and one friend are spelunking and find a gem vein, but the other 3 players are off rescuing a survivor, that vein is only going 40% as far as it was in the old system. It seems like spell trading will be a big component, now that I think about it. I wonder if there will be more incentive for players to trade spells in the interest of specializing builds?

I'm not saying I have a great solution, here, or that one is even required. I agree the personal stockpile will make more intuitive sense for many players. I think there will be some emergent tensions that seem interesting. And of course, it is hard to say yet how things will shake out with spells coming from missions. The friends who don't like to explore caves are very goal driven and tend to gravitate towards missions; perhaps I'll be the one begging them for spells!

We will leave more feedback once we play 1.04, of course. Looking forward to testing all the new stuff!
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: x4000 on June 27, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
It will definitely be a different dynamic, and something that we'll need to explore through playtesting to understand fully.  I think that, in general, the new system is far better than the old and a lot more intuitive to grasp without needing a lot of extra explanations.  The fact that the old system let each players spend a copy of each picked up item was so unclear that Gamespot or somesuch claimed there was ninja loot stealing in the game (though that was never the case).

All that said, I don't claim the new system is perfect; and once things are in player hands we can do some extra additions, etc, to shore up anything that is needed.  Right now there are so many things changing all at once that the final balance is hard to succinctly explain, to be honest.

The other thing that was really kind of wrong with the old system was that it so very much encouraged "separate but on the same server" type of gameplay.  The new system is neutral on that point: if you adventure together, you all get all the rewards.  If you adventure apart, you each get whatever rewards you individually pursue.  That seems better to me than something that inherently rewards players for fragmenting themselves as much as possible, since each one of them that collects something is really collecting n number of copies of that thing where n is the number of possible players.

That did mean you were being actively punished for actually adventuring with your friends on the same chunks with you, though that was never our intent.  And this release solves that, at the very least.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: nanostrike on June 27, 2012, 02:42:34 PM
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

This is what kinda gets my attention.  If you have to be in the same place at the same time as someone to get any benefit and otherwise have to go scavenge by yourself...you're basically playing single player if you're not following someone 100% of the time.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: x4000 on June 27, 2012, 02:46:23 PM
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

This is what kinda gets my attention.  If you have to be in the same place at the same time as someone to get any benefit and otherwise have to go scavenge by yourself...you're basically playing single player if you're not following someone 100% of the time.

Not true.  As they tier up the world and complete events, your tier also goes up.  Not the tier of your spells... but your actual character improves, etc.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: MouldyK on June 27, 2012, 02:50:31 PM
That did mean you were being actively punished for actually adventuring with your friends on the same chunks with you, though that was never our intent.  And this release solves that, at the very least.

You are still punished as long as the "Enemies Double In Power" is still there as it means that if you both wanna collect, you have to fight harder enemies unless you are both actively shooting at the same thing. Unless the key is to play Multiplayer on 1 difficulty lower than you would single player.



Not true.  As they tier up the world and complete events, your tier also goes up.  Not the tier of your spells... but your actual character improves, etc.

So players get stronger per tier now? Or what aspects do they improve?
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: LayZboy on June 27, 2012, 02:51:18 PM
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

This is what kinda gets my attention.  If you have to be in the same place at the same time as someone to get any benefit and otherwise have to go scavenge by yourself...you're basically playing single player if you're not following someone 100% of the time.

Not true.  As they tier up the world and complete events, your tier also goes up.  Not the tier of your spells... but your actual character improves, etc.

That makes it sound even worse than single-player if I'm honest.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: x4000 on June 27, 2012, 03:01:25 PM
MouldyK: yes, some various stats go up a bit now.  More on that soon in the release notes.  And: sigh.  This just in:

* Previously, monster health went up by 1x the largest number of players who had ever been together in the chunk of the monster (since the chunk was last loaded from disk).
** This made it so that, player per player, the same amount of damage needed to be dealt as if there was one player.  However, the perception has repeatedly been that it is better to journey solo rather than together, despite the fact that it is numerically identical and indeed tactically advantageous to stay together (given that you can flank monsters and they can often  only shoot at one of you at a time).
** As a concession to the perception, the multiplier is now 0.85x the largest number of players who have ever been in the chunk, so that now it's numerically advantageous to stay together as well as tactically so.

LayZboy: Suggestions are much more likely to get things changed in a way that you like rather than general grumbling.  Otherwise you're relying on my ability to guess what you're after, and I'm not that good a guesser.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: LayZboy on June 27, 2012, 03:13:49 PM
LayZboy: Suggestions are much more likely to get things changed in a way that you like rather than general grumbling.  Otherwise you're relying on my ability to guess what you're after, and I'm not that good a guesser.

Okay.
Instead of removing the shared resources and implementing this system, why not just make it clearer on how the shared system works to avoid the so-called confusion.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: MouldyK on June 27, 2012, 03:14:53 PM
Sorry if it was a bit moany about the multiplayer multiplier, but I think a change might be good if tested out and if we find it too easy after, then I will tell you and you can put it back up to x1 again.


I will now stop whining and let you finish up the changes before berating it.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Murmur on June 27, 2012, 03:16:28 PM
I just read through the current changes for the patch in question and I just want to say that personally, I can't wait. This sounds awesome, keep up the good work.

Don't know why but I felt compelled to register and say that.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 27, 2012, 03:28:16 PM
I just read through the current changes for the patch in question and I just want to say that personally, I can't wait. This sounds awesome, keep up the good work.

Don't know why but I felt compelled to register and say that.
KEITH! Stop mindcontrolling the lurkers!
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: x4000 on June 27, 2012, 03:29:06 PM
LayZboy: shared resources are already gone, and at this point I'm definitely not interested in doing a release without at least trying them out.  And if we ever did go back to some form of shared resource model, it wouldn't be like the one that we previously had.  Probably it would just give everyone a copy of whatever gets picked up or something.

Note that there are various things still not documented in the release notes yet, like catch-up spells (same idea as catch-up enchants) for new players being able to get in and up to speed immediately.

Also, really there are two points to the main system when it comes to MP:
1. Journeying together is better than apart.  Or at least neutral, rather than actively worse as before based on the math of pickups alone.  Is this co-op or isn't it?
2. Diversity between players is more fun.  If several players go off in different directions and all have different spells therefore, GREAT!  Then when they are journeying together they can better figure out how to work together rather than all being basically the same as one another.

Overall with these changes even for solo, another thing that we're shifting is moving away from "what's your favorite spell loadout" even being a possible thing to contemplate.  With partially-procedural spells, your favorite spell will change with each tier, thus making for a lot more interesting gameplay variety while still preserving a lot of choice (it's not like the crafting system is going away).  In the flow, it's like a whole new game.  Again. ;)

MouldyK: No worries.  You weren't the only one, and that changed apparently needed to be made since people are so up in arms about it consistently.

Murmur: Cheers, thanks for the positivity!  That's always refreshing in a thread like this. ;)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 27, 2012, 03:29:50 PM
KEITH! Stop mindcontrolling the lurkers!
What, me?  I haven't touched the mindcontrol device in... ah, must've been the hybrids, their jar is tipped over again.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: tigersfan on June 27, 2012, 03:30:53 PM
LayZboy: Suggestions are much more likely to get things changed in a way that you like rather than general grumbling.  Otherwise you're relying on my ability to guess what you're after, and I'm not that good a guesser.

Okay.
Instead of removing the shared resources and implementing this system, why not just make it clearer on how the shared system works to avoid the so-called confusion.

This is why we aren't really soliciting questions and such yet. It's not fully explained because it's not fully implemented. We'll get around to explaining it all, but, first we gotta get it into the game. :)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 27, 2012, 03:33:24 PM
What, me?  I haven't touched the mindcontrol device in... ah, must've been the hybrids, their jar is tipped over again.
It's always those hybrids, isn't it? I'm starting to think you're doing that on purpose.


On topic: I can't wait to see these things in game. It sounds a lot more like I originally imagined AVWW. Keep it up and you'll get my feedback once I sink my fangs into the changes.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Vinraith on June 27, 2012, 03:55:20 PM
I'm trying to wait for any real comment until after everything's in and documented, but I have to admit that I'm really concerned that the collection/crafting stuff (my favorite part of the design) appears to be de-emphasized in favor of the mission stuff (probably my least favorite part of the design) in these changes. Maybe I'm wrong about that as I don't have the whole picture yet, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Bluddy on June 27, 2012, 04:17:25 PM
I'm trying to wait for any real comment until after everything's in and documented, but I have to admit that I'm really concerned that the collection/crafting stuff (my favorite part of the design) appears to be de-emphasized in favor of the mission stuff (probably my least favorite part of the design) in these changes. Maybe I'm wrong about that as I don't have the whole picture yet, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

+1

I would like to see ALL missions give you side things like guardian power scrolls and perhaps settlement buildings, while crafting should be the main way to get spells. Also, reduce missions so I don't have 300 of them littering my map. 5 visible ones + the secret ones are more than enough.

The rest of the changes seem good so far.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: goodgimp on June 27, 2012, 05:28:14 PM
A lot of these changes sound really nice to me. Looking forward to the remainder of the notes.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Nanashi on June 27, 2012, 07:19:43 PM
Really minor and stupid gripe - wouldn't "penetrating" be better than "cleaving"?

Cleave usually means to split apart in a slashing manner. And it's ambiguous, because to cleave ALSO means to stick together, meaning it's one of the only auto-antonyms in the English language.

Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: yllamana on June 27, 2012, 09:15:15 PM
The multiplayer enemy health thing isn't perception, it's reality. To take the simplest possible example, if you're at the start of the game with another player and you run into a monster, the first player who hits it will knock it out of the way of the second player's shot. You also have some other issues - killing a monster in one hit is very different to killing it in two hits and affects how you play. What if you're fighting a boss and get split up? Suddenly enemies are charging towards you with double the health but you don't have double the instant firepower available.

On another tack, monsters move less predictably when you have multiple players around. Controlling your own movement is part of controlling a monster's movement in many cases, and having another player mucks that up. Having another player knocking a monster around from a different angle makes it even worse.

Naive doubling of the monsters' health just doesn't work because it ignores how health and the limit of health fits into the game as a whole. I'd put the multiplayer scaling as probably AVWW's single biggest multiplayer design flaw and I doubt reducing it by a bit will address it.

I also want to reiterate people's concerns re: missions. Some of them are fun but they're often the opposite of why I play the game: for the cool procedurally-generated world and exploration. I think I'd rather see the gameplay elements of the missions broken up and scattered through the explorable world instead of them being stuck in hermetically sealed exploration-free zones.

Anyway, holding off on talking about the crafting stuff other than that, but I think it'd be a mistake to dismiss people's concerns re: playing together apart. The game should let you do that too if you want to, and I think supporting that style of play, where the group can separate at a moment's notice if someone is interested in exploring somewhere, is important. Ideally it shouldn't make you feel punished for doing whatever it is you choose to do at any given moment - that's part of the fun. :)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Bluddy on June 27, 2012, 09:28:35 PM
I also want to reiterate people's concerns re: missions. Some of them are fun but they're often the opposite of why I play the game: for the cool procedurally-generated world and exploration. I think I'd rather see the gameplay elements of the missions broken up and scattered through the explorable world instead of them being stuck in hermetically sealed exploration-free zones.

+1 again.

I must've said this a hundred times, but the game's biggest strength is targeted exploration in random environments. If the missions could be seamlessly integrated into that exploration (and the random environments) rather than be discrete, the game would become significantly more enjoyable IMO.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: TechSY730 on June 27, 2012, 09:36:16 PM
+1 again.

I must've said this a hundred times, but the game's biggest strength is targeted exploration in random environments. If the missions could be seamlessly integrated into that exploration (and the random environments) rather than be discrete, the game would become significantly more enjoyable IMO.

It seems that they are targetting refactoring the tier/level, spell system, and reward structure for this release. Maybe mission system refactoring can be for a future release later on down this beta cycle.

Should they of done this in a different order (instead of one of those three, focused on the mission system for this release instead)? Maybe. But they didn't and this is what is up for 1.104.
Mission system refactoring maybe a good idea for the brainstorming forum to get some ideas lines up for this next beta cycle.

In terms of what is lined up, I'm withholding my judgment until the notes on the refactoring of these systems are finished. Maybe there is something big that we haven't seen yet that will address some of the concerns described in this thread, but we haven't seen them yet because the notes aren't finished. ;)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Tobias on June 27, 2012, 11:43:38 PM
Where are you guys getting this news on the next version? It sounds really great. I was never a fan of the way everything in multiplayer is automatically shared.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: TechSY730 on June 27, 2012, 11:47:27 PM
Where are you guys getting this news on the next version? It sounds really great. I was never a fan of the way everything in multiplayer is automatically shared.

You can find the release notes so far at http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AVWW_-_Post-Launch_Series_2_Release_Notes (naturally, everything regaurding a version is subject to change until that version comes out, but it is still a great way for the devs to communicate their changes for the next version and to give us a chance to voice opinions and concerns before it even comes out)

On a similar note, you can find the AI War release notes page at http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Post-5.000_Beta
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Tobias on June 28, 2012, 01:01:42 AM
Wow, I love the idea of randomly generated stats on spells, and the changes overall looks really interesting. I'm keen to see how this "levelling" works in multiplayer, will characters who join a server be automatically at the same level as a server? The changelog implies that level works the same as continent tier, but it also states that you may need to go and level up before being able to move onto a tougher area so that implies that it's not like that at all. Looking forward to finding out how this all works when it's finished.

Also, +1 for wanting to incentivise using different spells, one of the main reasons I didn't get along with the early builds of the game is because I wanted to use all the spells and you had to do missions to get those and that caused the tier to inflate and cause problems and etc, and then when you implemented the strategic difficulty thing I turned that down to easy. I like having a whole bunch of different spells that I just switch between a lot in order to keep things interesting.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: zebramatt on June 28, 2012, 02:44:18 AM
Guys, this is silly. If everyone freaks out when the team post up some new broad-sweeping changes before those changes are released all that's going to encourage is not making the details public until the release is ready to go!

I'm not sure what everyone's so afraid of. Even if a beta release comes out which totally cripples the game for your style of play, this is Arcen. Do you think they'll not redress the balance in the face of your feedback, post-release? Do you think they'll take a long time in doing it, even? Are you concerned that once the release is live the support for the new system will be so overwhelming you'll be too late to change their minds? And, most importantly, do you think that there's not a good chance there'll be a solution not yet thought of which would retain the good of the new and the good of the old?

I'm not suggesting that every change Arcen make always turns out good for everyone. And I even think feedback pre-release has led to a better reception of many changes. But there's really no need to get hysterical!  :D
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Misery on June 28, 2012, 04:42:16 AM
Guys, this is silly. If everyone freaks out when the team post up some new broad-sweeping changes before those changes are released all that's going to encourage is not making the details public until the release is ready to go!

I'm not sure what everyone's so afraid of. Even if a beta release comes out which totally cripples the game for your style of play, this is Arcen. Do you think they'll not redress the balance in the face of your feedback, post-release? Do you think they'll take a long time in doing it, even? Are you concerned that once the release is live the support for the new system will be so overwhelming you'll be too late to change their minds? And, most importantly, do you think that there's not a good chance there'll be a solution not yet thought of which would retain the good of the new and the good of the old?

I'm not suggesting that every change Arcen make always turns out good for everyone. And I even think feedback pre-release has led to a better reception of many changes. But there's really no need to get hysterical!  :D

Ehhh?

I wasnt aware there was much in the way of freaking out.... indeed, it looks like many are instead excited about this big blob of changes.

I know I cant wait for it, this looks like it's gonna be solving alot of the problems I had with the game all at once; just having more reason to actually explore (as opposed to the current version's absolute focus on missions), and a real reason to look for stashes and seek out secret missions, that all is going to add so much to the game.

And I hadnt even noticed the somewhat-randomized-spell-stats bit until someone mentioned it.    THAT sounds interesting.   I like the idea of having to select a spell loadout based on some things the RNG has done, as opposed to just taking the same spells every time;  it sounds more challenging and just better that way.

And I saw my question about the Resources scrolls has already been answered on there.



I do wonder what'll be the case with spells that only HAVE one tier (Sunrise, Moonrise, the teleports.....)  or certain spells that HAVE tiers, but dont ever really seem to need them (Storm Dash, Storm Fist). 
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Tarmandan on June 28, 2012, 05:27:30 AM
First of all I am really excited about all the changes and since I don't play any multiplayer because I have no one to play with *sniff* the stockpile change wouldn't mean a huge change for me. I have one concern however, about spells and enchants. If I understood it right then you can go back to continent 1 which is on tier 5 and use your tier 16 spells. Those would be really overpowered (I would like it as I like the feel of visiting a old area in any RPG and just destroying everything). Unlike other RPGs only part of your equipment "drops" is limited by enemy level: spells. Enchants have a worlwide level. So then I could just get easy enchants from my old continents. I would suggest limiting enchant levels, so that you can get a max enchant level of like 20 times the continent you are pickung up the enchant. 20 or 30 as max level on continent one enchants, 40/60 continent 2 and so on. For most players it wouldn't be really different from now I guess.
Can't wait for the release! Want to try it!
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Bluddy on June 28, 2012, 05:59:05 AM
+1 again.

I must've said this a hundred times, but the game's biggest strength is targeted exploration in random environments. If the missions could be seamlessly integrated into that exploration (and the random environments) rather than be discrete, the game would become significantly more enjoyable IMO.

It seems that they are targetting refactoring the tier/level, spell system, and reward structure for this release. Maybe mission system refactoring can be for a future release later on down this beta cycle.

Should they of done this in a different order (instead of one of those three, focused on the mission system for this release instead)? Maybe. But they didn't and this is what is up for 1.104.
Mission system refactoring maybe a good idea for the brainstorming forum to get some ideas lines up for this next beta cycle.

In terms of what is lined up, I'm withholding my judgment until the notes on the refactoring of these systems are finished. Maybe there is something big that we haven't seen yet that will address some of the concerns described in this thread, but we haven't seen them yet because the notes aren't finished. ;)

Well, I had no idea that big changes were coming. Most of these changes seem really good, especially the random spell stats, which is similar to ideas I had pushed for in the past (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7341 (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7341)). However, one change that seems to be coming is that missions are even more central than they were before (since they give you spells), and the best part of the game, which is targeted exploration, is being relegated to only being for stronger spells if you want them. That change sounds like it MAY be one that strengthens what is IMO the weakest part of the game (missions) and weakens the best part of the game (randomized targeted exploration). My opinion on this isn't new. I've posted many things about this including this suggestion http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7649 (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7649) and this http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10648.msg104419.html#msg104419 (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10648.msg104419.html#msg104419) and this http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7745#c24169 (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7745#c24169). I've pled for missions to become integrated into the game world rather than be discrete or that the focus should shift away from them by making them optional and bonus.

To be quite honest, I've stopped playing AVWW. The main reason for this is that currently, when I start the game up, I get 20 missions littering my map. There's no reason to explore because virtually everything (I have plain gems, and enchants don't excite me) can be obtained from missions. I look through the missions, finding a whole bunch of canned content that I don't feel like doing. And then I lament the fact that the missions obviate the need to explore the procedural world. Oh, another thing I lament is the way my avatar has gotten so fast via enchants, that it makes his animation + the whole world animation wonky and makes me too fast to be comfortable. And then I quit.

So you see, when I happened upon the changelog, and when I saw Vinraith's comment expressing exactly my feeling, I suddenly thought that maybe I wasn't the only one who viewed missions as the weakest part of the game, and I had to show my support.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Misery on June 28, 2012, 06:31:41 AM
+1 again.

I must've said this a hundred times, but the game's biggest strength is targeted exploration in random environments. If the missions could be seamlessly integrated into that exploration (and the random environments) rather than be discrete, the game would become significantly more enjoyable IMO.

It seems that they are targetting refactoring the tier/level, spell system, and reward structure for this release. Maybe mission system refactoring can be for a future release later on down this beta cycle.

Should they of done this in a different order (instead of one of those three, focused on the mission system for this release instead)? Maybe. But they didn't and this is what is up for 1.104.
Mission system refactoring maybe a good idea for the brainstorming forum to get some ideas lines up for this next beta cycle.

In terms of what is lined up, I'm withholding my judgment until the notes on the refactoring of these systems are finished. Maybe there is something big that we haven't seen yet that will address some of the concerns described in this thread, but we haven't seen them yet because the notes aren't finished. ;)

Well, I had no idea that big changes were coming. Most of these changes seem really good, especially the random spell stats, which is similar to ideas I had pushed for in the past (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7341 (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7341)). However, one change that seems to be coming is that missions are even more central than they were before (since they give you spells), and the best part of the game, which is targeted exploration, is being relegated to only being for stronger spells if you want them. That change sounds like it MAY be one that strengthens what is IMO the weakest part of the game (missions) and weakens the best part of the game (randomized targeted exploration). My opinion on this isn't new. I've posted many things about this including this suggestion (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7649). I've pled for missions to become integrated into the game world rather than be discrete or that the focus should shift away from them by making them optional and bonus.

To be quite honest, I've stopped playing AVWW. The main reason for this is that currently, when I start the game up, I get 20 missions littering my map. There's no reason to explore because virtually everything (I have plain gems, and enchants don't excite me) can be obtained from missions. I look through the missions, finding a whole bunch of canned content that I don't feel like doing. And then I lament the fact that the missions obviate the need to explore the procedural world. Oh, another thing I lament is the way my avatar has gotten so fast via enchants, that it makes his animation + the whole world animation wonky and makes me too fast to be comfortable. And then I quit.

So you see, when I happened upon the changelog, and when I saw Vinraith's comment expressing exactly my feeling, I suddenly thought that maybe I wasn't the only one who viewed missions as the weakest part of the game, and I had to show my support.


I totally agree.

I think though, that this is a step in the right direction.

You can get the spells themselves from missions.....

.....but you'll only get the weakest versions this way.  To get better versions, it seems like you're gonna have to go out seeking crafting stuffs, found in stashes/whatever.  It looks like the "common" version is the only one that does not require crafting, and thus does not require exploration.

Now, they'll have to balance numbers out so that A: the stronger version spells have enough of a difference to matter, and B: that the game's challenge level encourages the player to go get these stronger spells, so that they'll have better chances against all of the enemies/bosses/whatever.   If I can still get through the game (even on the highest two difficulties) without too much trouble with the common spells, as compared to uncommon & higher, then there's a problem.    There also needs to be crafting costs that make sense.   One problem I have with the current version, is I can spend 10 minutes in a cave, which isnt very long, and have SO MANY stones of 1, 2, or even 3 types, that I dont need to touch the caves even once more for the rest of the continent.


Again, I agree on the exploration bit overall:  This is the most fun part of the game, and I think it should be the most emphasized part of the game.  This should be where the majority of the gameplay is.  The current released build, before these listed changes, definitely does not have this.   There's no reason to go after stashes/gem rooms right now, and nowhere near enough reason to explore at all.   I like the mission system, but right now it's WAY too central.  The exploration really needs to be important again for this game to be at it's best.

I do like the bit with the guardian scrolls:  My playstyle means that I use these pretty often.... particularly considering I'm playing on such a high difficulty level, and actually EXPLORING to find the missions that give them to me, that bit is something I like.  I'll be seeking out those special chunks much more now, which will have me exploring surface and cave areas alot more (not buildings so much, since secret missions are rare in those, as opposed to surface/caves which ALWAYS have one).


My point though is:  Dont just assume it's all gloom and doom right from the start.   This update isnt even out yet.   And I really do think that if they can balance this right, the bit with getting stronger spells from exploration, and only the weakest versions from missions, could make a big difference.   But again, will have to see it for myself when it releases.


EDIT:   I also totally agree that the game burps out WAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY TOO MANY MISSIONS on the world map right now.  Way, way too many.  I dont know WHY it does this;  well, no, I understand in theory:  The idea is that the player can always find a mission type that they dont dislike too much, as opposed to the RNG sticking them only with whatever they consider to be the most annoying.   But yes, far too many.   Hell, just using something like a Seek Survivor scroll..... it's one thing to have to choose the best spot to drop it, based on what region types are in the 5 spots that it'll activate.   But usually, I also have to worry about it FITTING, because often there's just not enough room for the entire scroll to go into effect, without me clearing a couple of missions just to get more space!   And that's annoying;  if I'm using that scroll, I want to get FIVE survivors out of it.

That and there REALLY just doesnt need to be that many.


Anyway, I do think this update sounds good, but I'll still be interested to hear the devs' input on this particular issue (the bit with the exploration being important VS missions).


EDIT 2:  As for the bit about your guy going super-fast...... I'm thinking that's probably not supposed to be the case.  I've been playing this to death since it released, and I've never, ever seen this problem.   Hell, even if I'm far into a world and have a lot of enchants, I usually still think my characters are a little too slow.   This might be an issue for Mantis, perhaps?
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Tarmandan on June 28, 2012, 06:57:32 AM
EDIT 2:  As for the bit about your guy going super-fast...... I'm thinking that's probably not supposed to be the case.  I've been playing this to death since it released, and I've never, ever seen this problem.   Hell, even if I'm far into a world and have a lot of enchants, I usually still think my characters are a little too slow.   This might be an issue for Mantis, perhaps?

Maybe he is using a bronze age character? If he has like 50% incresed movement speed from enchants he should be about as fast as stormdashing with a ice age character without enchants. Or is the speed bonus handeled as a 100% bonus instead of double base speed?
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Bluddy on June 28, 2012, 06:59:28 AM
EDIT 2:  As for the bit about your guy going super-fast...... I'm thinking that's probably not supposed to be the case.  I've been playing this to death since it released, and I've never, ever seen this problem.   Hell, even if I'm far into a world and have a lot of enchants, I usually still think my characters are a little too slow.   This might be an issue for Mantis, perhaps?

Maybe he is using a bronze age character? If he has like 50% incresed movement speed from enchants he should be about as fast as stormdashing with a ice age character without enchants. Or is the speed bonus handeled as a 100% bonus instead of double base speed?

This was a minor point and I shouldn't have thrown it in there -- ignore it.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: tigersfan on June 28, 2012, 07:32:53 AM
IMO, I think these changes will make exploring more important. No one here at Arcen wants to make exploring LESS important. Just give us time to finish. :)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Hyfrydle on June 28, 2012, 07:41:37 AM
IMO, I think these changes will make exploring more important. No one here at Arcen wants to make exploring LESS important. Just give us time to finish. :)

Sorry we are all just excited to see what you guys have planned. I have also not played AVWW for quite a while and the changes in the current changelog have got me excited to start a brand new game and see if it is as good as it sounds.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Misery on June 28, 2012, 08:12:57 AM
IMO, I think these changes will make exploring more important. No one here at Arcen wants to make exploring LESS important. Just give us time to finish. :)

There, I KNEW one of you would pop in and make a statement like that to clear it up a bit!

Still amazes me how you guys interact with the community as well as you do.   Wish more devs would do that.


Cant wait for this patch though, whole thing sounds more awesome as I read more of the patch notes and ponder it more.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: MouldyK on June 28, 2012, 08:16:02 AM
Yeah, the amount of missions spewed out is annoying, especially early on in a continent where there are like EVERY SQUARE with a mission.


-QUICK THINKING ENABLED: Prepare for an idea which is not thought out fully-

I'd propose a change to this, such as starting with maybe 4 missions at the start of a continent and each Wind Shelter adding 2 more mission to the map.

Example:

Start: 4 missions.
1 Shelter: 6 missions.
2 Shelters: 8 missions.
3 Shelters: 10 missions.
4 Shelters: 12 missions.
5 Shelters: 14 missions.
6 Shelters: 16 missions.
7 Shelters: 18 missions.
8 Shelters: 20 missions.

That way, the amount of missions is in correlation to the size of landmass you have to play with. I mean the previous unlockable barriers for getting 20 missions unlocked can still be there, but making it seem like "Congrats! You have done 60 missions! The maximum number of missions on the map you can get is now 20 BUT only if you have 8 wind shelters set up".

Plus, it blends in with the whole "The more you uncover, the more there is to do with more choices" vibe I feel sometimes with the game.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: tigersfan on June 28, 2012, 08:41:16 AM
One thing with the missions is, we want players to be able to (at least usually) have mission types that they actually enjoy playing on the board. I think under the new system, having lots of available missions will be even more important, since it will be the primary source for spells. With so many available spells, you need a lot of missions in order to have a chance at your favorite.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Bluddy on June 28, 2012, 08:47:30 AM
One thing with the missions is, we want players to be able to (at least usually) have mission types that they actually enjoy playing on the board. I think under the new system, having lots of available missions will be even more important, since it will be the primary source for spells. With so many available spells, you need a lot of missions in order to have a chance at your favorite.

Yep. And that's pretty much what I was talking about.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: MouldyK on June 28, 2012, 08:53:14 AM
While I do agree with that entirely, one of the problems I have is that the missions are all clumped together and when I get a wind shelter, I still have to wait a while to get missions there that I want (without a seek resources or the other things needed) as all the missions are already in the clump. And by the time all of them expire or I do some of them, the clump moves to the new wind shelter place.


Actually, it might just be the game thinking I want clumps of things (and an uneven amount of journey to perfection missions also) and it's nothing to do with you guys. But still, I get the worst luck.  :P


But I do see that the extra missions might be good for the spells since there are loads of them to get.


Am I right to believe that the spells will designated by the environment the mission is on or will it be random?
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: BobTheJanitor on June 28, 2012, 12:58:07 PM
Really minor and stupid gripe - wouldn't "penetrating" be better than "cleaving"?

Cleave usually means to split apart in a slashing manner. And it's ambiguous, because to cleave ALSO means to stick together, meaning it's one of the only auto-antonyms in the English language.

The word-nerd in me appreciates this. And also I agree, cleaving isn't really the best term for going through multiple things at once. Penetrating or just the old piercing is more intuitively understood, I would think.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: TechSY730 on June 28, 2012, 01:04:27 PM
Really minor and stupid gripe - wouldn't "penetrating" be better than "cleaving"?

Cleave usually means to split apart in a slashing manner. And it's ambiguous, because to cleave ALSO means to stick together, meaning it's one of the only auto-antonyms in the English language.

The word-nerd in me appreciates this. And also I agree, cleaving isn't really the best term for going through multiple things at once. Penetrating or just the old piercing is more intuitively understood, I would think.

Agreed, penetrating or piercing are much closer to describing the concept in question.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: zebramatt on June 28, 2012, 01:56:00 PM
Really minor and stupid gripe - wouldn't "penetrating" be better than "cleaving"?

Cleave usually means to split apart in a slashing manner. And it's ambiguous, because to cleave ALSO means to stick together, meaning it's one of the only auto-antonyms in the English language.

The word-nerd in me appreciates this. And also I agree, cleaving isn't really the best term for going through multiple things at once. Penetrating or just the old piercing is more intuitively understood, I would think.

Agreed, penetrating or piercing are much closer to describing the concept in question.

(Despite my previous (slightly tongue-in-cheek, I must say!) comment) I also agree here!  :P
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Brise Bonbons on June 28, 2012, 04:11:22 PM
Firstly: I think cleaving is understood to mean hitting multiple targets in game lingo. It's tricky, of course: Do you use the term that gamers will be probably understand, or the neutral dictionary term? I tend towards the latter, but I think arguments exist for both paths.

Given all the "wait until it's finished to gripe" comments, I feel sort of bad for starting the thread now. My intention was really just to raise awareness early in the process of something I liked about the current system that seemed like it would be (un? intentionally) removed. As I see it, the ideal result of such a dialog is to raise a new possibility (such as happened with trading resources). My goal was never to try to critique the system before all the details were out, but to explore possible pitfalls early on so they didn't jump out of nowhere when the patch went live. That's why I was so happy to be reminded about being able to trade skill gems, a piece of the puzzle I wasn't seeing at the time.

Similarly, while I don't mind making a statement like "repeating missions in hopes of getting the spell I want to pop out as a reward is not a mode of gameplay I tend to enjoy", I don't think we have enough information to say much beyond that.

Anyway, as I've said before, I'm happy to wait and see what Arcen's plans are for the patch. I just wanted to mention early on that I like the ability to be the gatherer for my team, and don't want to entirely lose the option to make my efforts at resource collection help the settlement as a whole.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Singularity125 on June 28, 2012, 05:02:37 PM
Here's my (not finished, hastily-thought-out) idea for mission seeding: Base it on the player's preferences.

Here's what I mean by this. There should be a two-step process to determine which types of mission seed:

1. Do everything you can to ensure at least one mission of each unlocked type. The game probably already does this step.
2. Seed the remaining missions based on weights. The weight for each mission would be the number of times the player has completed that type of mission (this is already tracked for achievements). If someone has completed 30 Freefall missions, that weight becomes 30.

This means that missions that are completed more often are seeded more often, under the assumption that the player must enjoy that type more. This is fairly painless for single-player. For multiplayer, you'll have to add up the weights of all the players that are currently online. This will probably end up being a wide spread anyway, but it would try to tailor to each preference.

The big problem with this idea, of course, is that it doesn't cater as well to people who simply complete missions for their rewards, not for their enjoyment. I imagine it will end up with relatively even weights in the end, but it might need some playtesting.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: tigersfan on June 28, 2012, 05:04:08 PM
Keep in mind, there will still be crafting. So, if you really can't find a spell you really want in missions, you will be able to craft it. :)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Bluddy on June 28, 2012, 05:10:25 PM
Keep in mind, there will still be crafting. So, if you really can't find a spell you really want in missions, you will be able to craft it. :)

My personal experience is that I get sick of a mission type after doing it 4-5 times. I don't get sick of looking for crafting ingredients though. The new system does kind of allow the missions to be seen as an optional part of the gameplay or to be completely ignored, which makes me fairly happy. I'd be even happier if there was a way to toggle off map missions completely. Then I'd have the odd secret mission for guardian scrolls, and crafting for the spell system, which would be perfect.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: TechSY730 on June 28, 2012, 05:28:40 PM
Keep in mind, there will still be crafting. So, if you really can't find a spell you really want in missions, you will be able to craft it. :)

My personal experience is that I get sick of a mission type after doing it 4-5 times. I don't get sick of looking for crafting ingredients though. The new system does kind of allow the missions to be seen as an optional part of the gameplay or to be completely ignored, which makes me fairly happy. I'd be even happier if there was a way to toggle off map missions completely. Then I'd have the odd secret mission for guardian scrolls, and crafting for the spell system, which would be perfect.

Maybe a texture pack that swaps world map mission icons with blank, completely transparent squares? You would still get the misison description popup when on the region and the mission areas would still seed entrances to their chunks in the region, but at least you would have a clean map screen.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: yllamana on June 28, 2012, 06:01:23 PM
I think it'd be way cooler if the mission elements were in the explorable world. Maybe you'd have an area where allies were fighting against enemies. Maybe an area with a large drop filled with mines, but a floaty field that helps you descend slowly. Maybe you enter a boss room and it has an umbra vortex! Or maybe an area is having a meteor shower. Even multiple ones of these at a time! It would make the explorable world much more interesting.

As an alternative/supplement, organisation to the monsters. Right now it feels to me like they're scattered around the chunks randomly. Wouldn't more organisation be neat? Maybe there's a cave with bats in it, or some mechanical enemies defending a home.

Er anyway. The other thing I wanted to say is I don't think you should feel bad. It's better to chip in with how you feel about something before it hurts the game for you than after. It's cheaper for a developer to change a design before they've implemented it, after all. Obviously there are some caveats there but there's nothing wrong with expressing your view on it.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 28, 2012, 06:08:49 PM
One issue with the "move missions into the world" concept is that a lot of players need a lot of direction.  We even had reviewers who would go through the tutorial, get to the world map, and still not realize there were missions out there for them to do, assume the game had no direction, and shelve it.

Needless to say, we didn't try to reach that far down to hold hands (we're not even sure how we could get through in a case like that), but there's also a legitimate reason to have some pretty prominent "you could go here next" pointers.

That said, I agree it shouldn't be flooding the screen with missions; for a long time we had it start with 2 missions per continent and work up to 7.  That may have been too few, but our usual practice of doing big changes like a binary-search instead of incremental ones does sometimes lead to situations like this :)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 28, 2012, 06:13:34 PM
Where are you guys getting this news on the next version? It sounds really great. I was never a fan of the way everything in multiplayer is automatically shared.
OH GOD! There's now a Tobias on the forums!
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: TechSY730 on June 28, 2012, 06:15:44 PM
One issue with the "move missions into the world" concept is that a lot of players need a lot of direction.  We even had reviewers who would go through the tutorial, get to the world map, and still not realize there were missions out there for them to do, assume the game had no direction, and shelve it.

Needless to say, we didn't try to reach that far down to hold hands (we're not even sure how we could get through in a case like that), but there's also a legitimate reason to have some pretty prominent "you could go here next" pointers.

That said, I agree it shouldn't be flooding the screen with missions; for a long time we had it start with 2 missions per continent and work up to 7.  That may have been too few, but our usual practice of doing big changes like a binary-search instead of incremental ones does sometimes lead to situations like this :)

I understand the value of the whole "binary search" approach to balance. I think people are slightly miffed that the one of the "overcorrection" phases managed to get into a stable build. Aka, you didn't finish your "experimentation to find balance binary search" by the time that most people would expect experimental balance adjustments to be mostly resolved, a build denoted as stable.

Now, I sort of know why this happened, people didn't really mention the overabundance of missions until after the stable release came out, but still, it is slightly annoying for the non-beta testers to be hit with a side effect of a process that is supposed to be confined to beta level release cycle testing (in this case, deliberate overrcorrection).
Well, at least you overrcorrected in the side of too many missions. It's slightly annoying, but at least what you need is almost certainly there. What would of been far worse is letting into the stable release an overcorrection on the side of too few missions. ;)
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: yllamana on June 28, 2012, 06:42:07 PM
One issue with the "move missions into the world" concept is that a lot of players need a lot of direction.  We even had reviewers who would go through the tutorial, get to the world map, and still not realize there were missions out there for them to do, assume the game had no direction, and shelve it.

Needless to say, we didn't try to reach that far down to hold hands (we're not even sure how we could get through in a case like that), but there's also a legitimate reason to have some pretty prominent "you could go here next" pointers.

That said, I agree it shouldn't be flooding the screen with missions; for a long time we had it start with 2 missions per continent and work up to 7.  That may have been too few, but our usual practice of doing big changes like a binary-search instead of incremental ones does sometimes lead to situations like this :)
Well, as a simple suggestion of how to solve that problem, what comes to mind is that the survivors could be attempting to detect opportunities through whichever magical or technological means they have at their disposal, and they could display "missions" on the map that were actually part of a room in that terrain. So maybe you have a room where allied critters are fighting against enemies and you can get something out of helping them, and that pops up on the map with information about it to help direct the player. The mission's appearance would be random, so you'd still find tons of these little things wandering around, but if you were after direction that'd be available.

You could even have an NPC in the settlement (I think a human character would be more fun than an Ilari, though YMMV) who can suggest goals (maybe with a little two-frame talky head!!!) but who you can totally ignore if you want.

The problem from my point of view is the explorable world often feels pretty sterile and samey. You have all these cool game mechanic ideas but they're all locked away in missions. I'd just like to see those game mechanics appear in exploration because that's the part of the game that really interests me.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: JBSpook on June 28, 2012, 07:31:30 PM
Two thoughts....

What if there was a way to delete missions from the world map?

Could be a new keybind you hit when your on a chunk that has a mission you want to get rid of.  A confirmation message, then a deleted mission.  That would then have to start the respawn timer for the chunk.

*You could clear away mission clutter if want
*You could clear away mission types you dont like and have no intentions of doing
*You could clear that perfect area to lay down that survivor scroll without having to do the missions first

Second thought...

Have a "hardcore" mode at world launch that doesnt spawn missions on the world map. All missions would have to be sought out  by adventuring.

Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: MouldyK on June 28, 2012, 07:44:55 PM
Have a "hardcore" mode at world launch that doesnt spawn missions on the world map. All missions would have to be sought out  by adventuring.

Or an in-game option in the Difficulty Stone. :3
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Bluddy on June 28, 2012, 07:49:37 PM
One issue with the "move missions into the world" concept is that a lot of players need a lot of direction.  We even had reviewers who would go through the tutorial, get to the world map, and still not realize there were missions out there for them to do, assume the game had no direction, and shelve it.

Needless to say, we didn't try to reach that far down to hold hands (we're not even sure how we could get through in a case like that), but there's also a legitimate reason to have some pretty prominent "you could go here next" pointers.

That said, I agree it shouldn't be flooding the screen with missions; for a long time we had it start with 2 missions per continent and work up to 7.  That may have been too few, but our usual practice of doing big changes like a binary-search instead of incremental ones does sometimes lead to situations like this :)
Well, as a simple suggestion of how to solve that problem, what comes to mind is that the survivors could be attempting to detect opportunities through whichever magical or technological means they have at their disposal, and they could display "missions" on the map that were actually part of a room in that terrain. So maybe you have a room where allied critters are fighting against enemies and you can get something out of helping them, and that pops up on the map with information about it to help direct the player. The mission's appearance would be random, so you'd still find tons of these little things wandering around, but if you were after direction that'd be available.

You could even have an NPC in the settlement (I think a human character would be more fun than an Ilari, though YMMV) who can suggest goals (maybe with a little two-frame talky head!!!) but who you can totally ignore if you want.

The problem from my point of view is the explorable world often feels pretty sterile and samey. You have all these cool game mechanic ideas but they're all locked away in missions. I'd just like to see those game mechanics appear in exploration because that's the part of the game that really interests me.

This is exactly my feedback from 2 months ago (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7745#c24169 (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7745#c24169)). I agree 100%. Make the missions appear as organic tasks for chunks that are modified to be like that mission. One chunk could have meteors falling, etc and would need you to take care of it. But it would involve exploration and it would benefit from the world's randomness.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: Tobias on June 28, 2012, 08:34:40 PM
OH GOD! There's now a Tobias on the forums!

u wot m8


As for the whole cleaving/piercing thing, I do think the only people who associate "cleave" with the act of hitting multiple targets are people who have played DnD or Neverwinter Nights. That's not THAT many people compared to the number of people who haven't. I, personally, would go with the correct english term for it.
Title: Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
Post by: zebramatt on June 29, 2012, 02:27:09 AM
This is purely anecdotal now but I've been playing a lot of Dragon's Dogma and what that does with quests and the map isn't perfect by any stretch but something similar might mediate between those who feel directionless and those who feel oversaturated.

Basically, you can view the map with or without your current quest markers on it. You can bring up a list alongside the map and scroll through quests and have it mark the selected one on the map. So if you're just trying to get somewhere - maybe to collect some stuff to craft - then your map is clutter-free; if you're doing a certain mission the objectives are marked. And you can always scroll through the list to see if there are other quests nearby you'd rather be doing.

Obviously in Valley things are different. Missions occur in-chunk and are demarked on the world map to let you know they exist. But it strikes me you could add a toggle for their display and that would help the players who don't want to know about missions right now. You could also have a list of all the current missions (slightly less trivial to implement, admittedly!) so you can look at them that way. Maybe selecting a mission from the list would highlight it on the world map and show you the details. And finally, notifications of new missions being added to the list (and old ones being removed) could indicate to new players and players with the world map icons toggled off what there is to do in the world.