Author Topic: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04  (Read 7854 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2012, 09:36:16 PM »
+1 again.

I must've said this a hundred times, but the game's biggest strength is targeted exploration in random environments. If the missions could be seamlessly integrated into that exploration (and the random environments) rather than be discrete, the game would become significantly more enjoyable IMO.

It seems that they are targetting refactoring the tier/level, spell system, and reward structure for this release. Maybe mission system refactoring can be for a future release later on down this beta cycle.

Should they of done this in a different order (instead of one of those three, focused on the mission system for this release instead)? Maybe. But they didn't and this is what is up for 1.104.
Mission system refactoring maybe a good idea for the brainstorming forum to get some ideas lines up for this next beta cycle.

In terms of what is lined up, I'm withholding my judgment until the notes on the refactoring of these systems are finished. Maybe there is something big that we haven't seen yet that will address some of the concerns described in this thread, but we haven't seen them yet because the notes aren't finished. ;)

Offline Tobias

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2012, 11:43:38 PM »
Where are you guys getting this news on the next version? It sounds really great. I was never a fan of the way everything in multiplayer is automatically shared.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2012, 11:47:27 PM »
Where are you guys getting this news on the next version? It sounds really great. I was never a fan of the way everything in multiplayer is automatically shared.

You can find the release notes so far at http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AVWW_-_Post-Launch_Series_2_Release_Notes (naturally, everything regaurding a version is subject to change until that version comes out, but it is still a great way for the devs to communicate their changes for the next version and to give us a chance to voice opinions and concerns before it even comes out)

On a similar note, you can find the AI War release notes page at http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Post-5.000_Beta

Offline Tobias

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2012, 01:01:42 AM »
Wow, I love the idea of randomly generated stats on spells, and the changes overall looks really interesting. I'm keen to see how this "levelling" works in multiplayer, will characters who join a server be automatically at the same level as a server? The changelog implies that level works the same as continent tier, but it also states that you may need to go and level up before being able to move onto a tougher area so that implies that it's not like that at all. Looking forward to finding out how this all works when it's finished.

Also, +1 for wanting to incentivise using different spells, one of the main reasons I didn't get along with the early builds of the game is because I wanted to use all the spells and you had to do missions to get those and that caused the tier to inflate and cause problems and etc, and then when you implemented the strategic difficulty thing I turned that down to easy. I like having a whole bunch of different spells that I just switch between a lot in order to keep things interesting.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 01:35:17 AM by Tobias »

Offline zebramatt

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2012, 02:44:18 AM »
Guys, this is silly. If everyone freaks out when the team post up some new broad-sweeping changes before those changes are released all that's going to encourage is not making the details public until the release is ready to go!

I'm not sure what everyone's so afraid of. Even if a beta release comes out which totally cripples the game for your style of play, this is Arcen. Do you think they'll not redress the balance in the face of your feedback, post-release? Do you think they'll take a long time in doing it, even? Are you concerned that once the release is live the support for the new system will be so overwhelming you'll be too late to change their minds? And, most importantly, do you think that there's not a good chance there'll be a solution not yet thought of which would retain the good of the new and the good of the old?

I'm not suggesting that every change Arcen make always turns out good for everyone. And I even think feedback pre-release has led to a better reception of many changes. But there's really no need to get hysterical!  :D

Offline Misery

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2012, 04:42:16 AM »
Guys, this is silly. If everyone freaks out when the team post up some new broad-sweeping changes before those changes are released all that's going to encourage is not making the details public until the release is ready to go!

I'm not sure what everyone's so afraid of. Even if a beta release comes out which totally cripples the game for your style of play, this is Arcen. Do you think they'll not redress the balance in the face of your feedback, post-release? Do you think they'll take a long time in doing it, even? Are you concerned that once the release is live the support for the new system will be so overwhelming you'll be too late to change their minds? And, most importantly, do you think that there's not a good chance there'll be a solution not yet thought of which would retain the good of the new and the good of the old?

I'm not suggesting that every change Arcen make always turns out good for everyone. And I even think feedback pre-release has led to a better reception of many changes. But there's really no need to get hysterical!  :D

Ehhh?

I wasnt aware there was much in the way of freaking out.... indeed, it looks like many are instead excited about this big blob of changes.

I know I cant wait for it, this looks like it's gonna be solving alot of the problems I had with the game all at once; just having more reason to actually explore (as opposed to the current version's absolute focus on missions), and a real reason to look for stashes and seek out secret missions, that all is going to add so much to the game.

And I hadnt even noticed the somewhat-randomized-spell-stats bit until someone mentioned it.    THAT sounds interesting.   I like the idea of having to select a spell loadout based on some things the RNG has done, as opposed to just taking the same spells every time;  it sounds more challenging and just better that way.

And I saw my question about the Resources scrolls has already been answered on there.



I do wonder what'll be the case with spells that only HAVE one tier (Sunrise, Moonrise, the teleports.....)  or certain spells that HAVE tiers, but dont ever really seem to need them (Storm Dash, Storm Fist). 

Offline Tarmandan

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2012, 05:27:30 AM »
First of all I am really excited about all the changes and since I don't play any multiplayer because I have no one to play with *sniff* the stockpile change wouldn't mean a huge change for me. I have one concern however, about spells and enchants. If I understood it right then you can go back to continent 1 which is on tier 5 and use your tier 16 spells. Those would be really overpowered (I would like it as I like the feel of visiting a old area in any RPG and just destroying everything). Unlike other RPGs only part of your equipment "drops" is limited by enemy level: spells. Enchants have a worlwide level. So then I could just get easy enchants from my old continents. I would suggest limiting enchant levels, so that you can get a max enchant level of like 20 times the continent you are pickung up the enchant. 20 or 30 as max level on continent one enchants, 40/60 continent 2 and so on. For most players it wouldn't be really different from now I guess.
Can't wait for the release! Want to try it!

Offline Bluddy

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2012, 05:59:05 AM »
+1 again.

I must've said this a hundred times, but the game's biggest strength is targeted exploration in random environments. If the missions could be seamlessly integrated into that exploration (and the random environments) rather than be discrete, the game would become significantly more enjoyable IMO.

It seems that they are targetting refactoring the tier/level, spell system, and reward structure for this release. Maybe mission system refactoring can be for a future release later on down this beta cycle.

Should they of done this in a different order (instead of one of those three, focused on the mission system for this release instead)? Maybe. But they didn't and this is what is up for 1.104.
Mission system refactoring maybe a good idea for the brainstorming forum to get some ideas lines up for this next beta cycle.

In terms of what is lined up, I'm withholding my judgment until the notes on the refactoring of these systems are finished. Maybe there is something big that we haven't seen yet that will address some of the concerns described in this thread, but we haven't seen them yet because the notes aren't finished. ;)

Well, I had no idea that big changes were coming. Most of these changes seem really good, especially the random spell stats, which is similar to ideas I had pushed for in the past (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7341). However, one change that seems to be coming is that missions are even more central than they were before (since they give you spells), and the best part of the game, which is targeted exploration, is being relegated to only being for stronger spells if you want them. That change sounds like it MAY be one that strengthens what is IMO the weakest part of the game (missions) and weakens the best part of the game (randomized targeted exploration). My opinion on this isn't new. I've posted many things about this including this suggestion http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7649 and this http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10648.msg104419.html#msg104419 and this http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7745#c24169. I've pled for missions to become integrated into the game world rather than be discrete or that the focus should shift away from them by making them optional and bonus.

To be quite honest, I've stopped playing AVWW. The main reason for this is that currently, when I start the game up, I get 20 missions littering my map. There's no reason to explore because virtually everything (I have plain gems, and enchants don't excite me) can be obtained from missions. I look through the missions, finding a whole bunch of canned content that I don't feel like doing. And then I lament the fact that the missions obviate the need to explore the procedural world. Oh, another thing I lament is the way my avatar has gotten so fast via enchants, that it makes his animation + the whole world animation wonky and makes me too fast to be comfortable. And then I quit.

So you see, when I happened upon the changelog, and when I saw Vinraith's comment expressing exactly my feeling, I suddenly thought that maybe I wasn't the only one who viewed missions as the weakest part of the game, and I had to show my support.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 06:33:10 AM by Bluddy »

Offline Misery

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2012, 06:31:41 AM »
+1 again.

I must've said this a hundred times, but the game's biggest strength is targeted exploration in random environments. If the missions could be seamlessly integrated into that exploration (and the random environments) rather than be discrete, the game would become significantly more enjoyable IMO.

It seems that they are targetting refactoring the tier/level, spell system, and reward structure for this release. Maybe mission system refactoring can be for a future release later on down this beta cycle.

Should they of done this in a different order (instead of one of those three, focused on the mission system for this release instead)? Maybe. But they didn't and this is what is up for 1.104.
Mission system refactoring maybe a good idea for the brainstorming forum to get some ideas lines up for this next beta cycle.

In terms of what is lined up, I'm withholding my judgment until the notes on the refactoring of these systems are finished. Maybe there is something big that we haven't seen yet that will address some of the concerns described in this thread, but we haven't seen them yet because the notes aren't finished. ;)

Well, I had no idea that big changes were coming. Most of these changes seem really good, especially the random spell stats, which is similar to ideas I had pushed for in the past (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7341). However, one change that seems to be coming is that missions are even more central than they were before (since they give you spells), and the best part of the game, which is targeted exploration, is being relegated to only being for stronger spells if you want them. That change sounds like it MAY be one that strengthens what is IMO the weakest part of the game (missions) and weakens the best part of the game (randomized targeted exploration). My opinion on this isn't new. I've posted many things about this including this suggestion (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7649). I've pled for missions to become integrated into the game world rather than be discrete or that the focus should shift away from them by making them optional and bonus.

To be quite honest, I've stopped playing AVWW. The main reason for this is that currently, when I start the game up, I get 20 missions littering my map. There's no reason to explore because virtually everything (I have plain gems, and enchants don't excite me) can be obtained from missions. I look through the missions, finding a whole bunch of canned content that I don't feel like doing. And then I lament the fact that the missions obviate the need to explore the procedural world. Oh, another thing I lament is the way my avatar has gotten so fast via enchants, that it makes his animation + the whole world animation wonky and makes me too fast to be comfortable. And then I quit.

So you see, when I happened upon the changelog, and when I saw Vinraith's comment expressing exactly my feeling, I suddenly thought that maybe I wasn't the only one who viewed missions as the weakest part of the game, and I had to show my support.


I totally agree.

I think though, that this is a step in the right direction.

You can get the spells themselves from missions.....

.....but you'll only get the weakest versions this way.  To get better versions, it seems like you're gonna have to go out seeking crafting stuffs, found in stashes/whatever.  It looks like the "common" version is the only one that does not require crafting, and thus does not require exploration.

Now, they'll have to balance numbers out so that A: the stronger version spells have enough of a difference to matter, and B: that the game's challenge level encourages the player to go get these stronger spells, so that they'll have better chances against all of the enemies/bosses/whatever.   If I can still get through the game (even on the highest two difficulties) without too much trouble with the common spells, as compared to uncommon & higher, then there's a problem.    There also needs to be crafting costs that make sense.   One problem I have with the current version, is I can spend 10 minutes in a cave, which isnt very long, and have SO MANY stones of 1, 2, or even 3 types, that I dont need to touch the caves even once more for the rest of the continent.


Again, I agree on the exploration bit overall:  This is the most fun part of the game, and I think it should be the most emphasized part of the game.  This should be where the majority of the gameplay is.  The current released build, before these listed changes, definitely does not have this.   There's no reason to go after stashes/gem rooms right now, and nowhere near enough reason to explore at all.   I like the mission system, but right now it's WAY too central.  The exploration really needs to be important again for this game to be at it's best.

I do like the bit with the guardian scrolls:  My playstyle means that I use these pretty often.... particularly considering I'm playing on such a high difficulty level, and actually EXPLORING to find the missions that give them to me, that bit is something I like.  I'll be seeking out those special chunks much more now, which will have me exploring surface and cave areas alot more (not buildings so much, since secret missions are rare in those, as opposed to surface/caves which ALWAYS have one).


My point though is:  Dont just assume it's all gloom and doom right from the start.   This update isnt even out yet.   And I really do think that if they can balance this right, the bit with getting stronger spells from exploration, and only the weakest versions from missions, could make a big difference.   But again, will have to see it for myself when it releases.


EDIT:   I also totally agree that the game burps out WAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY TOO MANY MISSIONS on the world map right now.  Way, way too many.  I dont know WHY it does this;  well, no, I understand in theory:  The idea is that the player can always find a mission type that they dont dislike too much, as opposed to the RNG sticking them only with whatever they consider to be the most annoying.   But yes, far too many.   Hell, just using something like a Seek Survivor scroll..... it's one thing to have to choose the best spot to drop it, based on what region types are in the 5 spots that it'll activate.   But usually, I also have to worry about it FITTING, because often there's just not enough room for the entire scroll to go into effect, without me clearing a couple of missions just to get more space!   And that's annoying;  if I'm using that scroll, I want to get FIVE survivors out of it.

That and there REALLY just doesnt need to be that many.


Anyway, I do think this update sounds good, but I'll still be interested to hear the devs' input on this particular issue (the bit with the exploration being important VS missions).


EDIT 2:  As for the bit about your guy going super-fast...... I'm thinking that's probably not supposed to be the case.  I've been playing this to death since it released, and I've never, ever seen this problem.   Hell, even if I'm far into a world and have a lot of enchants, I usually still think my characters are a little too slow.   This might be an issue for Mantis, perhaps?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 06:39:39 AM by Misery »

Offline Tarmandan

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2012, 06:57:32 AM »
EDIT 2:  As for the bit about your guy going super-fast...... I'm thinking that's probably not supposed to be the case.  I've been playing this to death since it released, and I've never, ever seen this problem.   Hell, even if I'm far into a world and have a lot of enchants, I usually still think my characters are a little too slow.   This might be an issue for Mantis, perhaps?

Maybe he is using a bronze age character? If he has like 50% incresed movement speed from enchants he should be about as fast as stormdashing with a ice age character without enchants. Or is the speed bonus handeled as a 100% bonus instead of double base speed?

Offline Bluddy

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2012, 06:59:28 AM »
EDIT 2:  As for the bit about your guy going super-fast...... I'm thinking that's probably not supposed to be the case.  I've been playing this to death since it released, and I've never, ever seen this problem.   Hell, even if I'm far into a world and have a lot of enchants, I usually still think my characters are a little too slow.   This might be an issue for Mantis, perhaps?

Maybe he is using a bronze age character? If he has like 50% incresed movement speed from enchants he should be about as fast as stormdashing with a ice age character without enchants. Or is the speed bonus handeled as a 100% bonus instead of double base speed?

This was a minor point and I shouldn't have thrown it in there -- ignore it.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2012, 07:32:53 AM »
IMO, I think these changes will make exploring more important. No one here at Arcen wants to make exploring LESS important. Just give us time to finish. :)

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2012, 07:41:37 AM »
IMO, I think these changes will make exploring more important. No one here at Arcen wants to make exploring LESS important. Just give us time to finish. :)

Sorry we are all just excited to see what you guys have planned. I have also not played AVWW for quite a while and the changes in the current changelog have got me excited to start a brand new game and see if it is as good as it sounds.

Offline Misery

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2012, 08:12:57 AM »
IMO, I think these changes will make exploring more important. No one here at Arcen wants to make exploring LESS important. Just give us time to finish. :)

There, I KNEW one of you would pop in and make a statement like that to clear it up a bit!

Still amazes me how you guys interact with the community as well as you do.   Wish more devs would do that.


Cant wait for this patch though, whole thing sounds more awesome as I read more of the patch notes and ponder it more.

Offline MouldyK

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2012, 08:16:02 AM »
Yeah, the amount of missions spewed out is annoying, especially early on in a continent where there are like EVERY SQUARE with a mission.


-QUICK THINKING ENABLED: Prepare for an idea which is not thought out fully-

I'd propose a change to this, such as starting with maybe 4 missions at the start of a continent and each Wind Shelter adding 2 more mission to the map.

Example:

Start: 4 missions.
1 Shelter: 6 missions.
2 Shelters: 8 missions.
3 Shelters: 10 missions.
4 Shelters: 12 missions.
5 Shelters: 14 missions.
6 Shelters: 16 missions.
7 Shelters: 18 missions.
8 Shelters: 20 missions.

That way, the amount of missions is in correlation to the size of landmass you have to play with. I mean the previous unlockable barriers for getting 20 missions unlocked can still be there, but making it seem like "Congrats! You have done 60 missions! The maximum number of missions on the map you can get is now 20 BUT only if you have 8 wind shelters set up".

Plus, it blends in with the whole "The more you uncover, the more there is to do with more choices" vibe I feel sometimes with the game.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 08:33:28 AM by MouldyK »