Author Topic: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04  (Read 7850 times)

Offline Brise Bonbons

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A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« on: June 27, 2012, 12:28:36 PM »
I know the beta patch notes say to hold off on questions, but this is more of a complaint. :) Seriously though, I wanted to mention my concern as early as possible in the event it can be addressed in some way.

In short, I feel that the settlement stockpile is extremely friendly to improvisational group play, where players are coordinating, but not necessarily running around as a party at all times. As a bit of background, I play with old university friends spread across the USA, and while we all have very different schedules, we get together weekly to hang out in a coop multiplayer game and chat. Some of us can be online for most of the evening, some of us can only manage a couple hours, some of us often miss weeks entirely.

The settlement stockpile enabled those of us with more time to go on long spelunking excursions, which we knew would provide crafting materials for the entire group. We could also split up do tasks which seemed interesting to us, say, 3 guys focusing on missions, the other 2 exploring and gathering resources. We never felt forced to all group up at the cave mouth in so-and-so region to stock up for crafting.

Based on what we currently know of 1.04, it seems to me that it will be much harder for players who do not spend as much time on a given server/world to keep up with the continent/world progress. While that fits the generic game model well, one of the things I really enjoyed about AVWW is that it creates a sense of community more than most RPGs, because you know that whatever you're doing, you're helping the progress of the settlement and sharing the resources gathered to further that goal.

I hope that at minimum, there would be some way to trade crafting materials, or perhaps a settlement stash (sort of like an ARPG stash) which players could withdraw from. Or is the phenomenon of one player gathering resources for the whole group something you're trying to curb?

I must admit I'm still a little foggy on the ramifications of all the changes. Perhaps someone can set my mind at ease and show me that I'm panicking without reason here.

P.S. I am very excited for many of the other items in the patch notes, and I think they make sense overall. My concern here is really a selfish one, but I'd hate to see the flexibility that I've just gotten so fond of go away entirely.

Offline x4000

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 12:37:39 PM »
In terms of the people who play less, they would indeed have overall lower quantities of the resources.  But making it possible to share those is a good idea; right now that wouldn't be possible.

Bear in mind that crafting is kind of the secondary way of getting spells in the new model, however, so players who are absent for goodly chunks really shouldn't have any trouble keeping up.  And if you wish to share spells with them that you have crafted that are awesome (but you have two awesome ones and only need one), you can now do that (whereas before you couldn't), too.

So a lot of the flexibility is shifted around, but it's still there.  There may be a few snags here and there (gifting resources is one thing I hadn't thought of), so definitely don't hesitate to bring those up as you get time with the new system.  If there are snags we definitely want to smooth those over, but since we haven't finished explaining the new system I figure there are going to be a lot of percieved snags that actually we already thought of and just haven't implemented or written out yet. :)
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Offline LayZboy

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 12:50:20 PM »
And if you wish to share spells with them that you have crafted that are awesome (but you have two awesome ones and only need one), you can now do that (whereas before you couldn't), too.

Yeah you could because they'd have all the resources needed to make the spell right away.

Offline x4000

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 12:52:16 PM »
And if you wish to share spells with them that you have crafted that are awesome (but you have two awesome ones and only need one), you can now do that (whereas before you couldn't), too.

Yeah you could because they'd have all the resources needed to make the spell right away.

Well, sort of.  If you figure the spell was just a matter of the spell and not the spell + enchants.  But anyhow, under the new system spells are unique anyhow, so trading is more useful than it would have been under the old system.  But now we're splitting hairs. ;)
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Offline LayZboy

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 01:01:11 PM »
As I only play this game with MouldyK, my shield type typically depended on what type of weapon he was going for on each Continent, be it Earth or Water or Fire, as I would not have to hunt the gems needed to make it. This was our way of "helping each other" along with doing missions one of us might need the resources for each other.

Now we can't share resources I must hunt them myself, and so must he if the role is reversed. How am I supposed to help and be helped now we mus collect everything our selfs? I might as well not bother with multi-player anymore.

Offline x4000

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 01:03:30 PM »
See, this is exactly why I was not inviting questions.  The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.  You make a shield, he makes a fire spell.  Nothing different there, unless you and he are not playing at the same time or in the same place.  And in that case you can each choose to seek out complementary spells independently of one another just as easily now as you could before.
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Offline LayZboy

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 01:16:02 PM »
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 01:16:39 PM »
See, this is exactly why I was not inviting questions.
In words, no, but posting it in a public place will get questions, and I assume you knew that when you did it ;)
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Offline tigersfan

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 01:37:47 PM »
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

Gathering resources really isn't going to be all that different than it is now. We are considering some better resource trading options, but beyond that, I'm not sure there's much need for more.

If there is after everyone has played the new version, then we'll make the appropriate changes.

Offline Brise Bonbons

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 02:03:22 PM »
Thanks for pointing out the ability to trade spells Chris, I knew there was something I was missing in the new system... :)

It is comforting to know my group is not the only one that made a point of splitting up when playing MP. Much like AI War, I think of AVWW as more a game where multiple players play along side each other with very tightly interwoven strategic goals, but don't always necessarily visit the same areas at the same time. So obviously to my play style, the removal of the settlement stash feels like a nerf. I think that's fine, just pointing out where my selfish interests lie.

I think trading spell gems certainly offers a workaround, but it does remove some agency and choice from the player who is reliant on the "crafter" to supply them with spells. That is an interesting dynamic in itself, evoking some of the reliance on crafters that oldschool MMORPGs had. It also means that if me and one friend are spelunking and find a gem vein, but the other 3 players are off rescuing a survivor, that vein is only going 40% as far as it was in the old system. It seems like spell trading will be a big component, now that I think about it. I wonder if there will be more incentive for players to trade spells in the interest of specializing builds?

I'm not saying I have a great solution, here, or that one is even required. I agree the personal stockpile will make more intuitive sense for many players. I think there will be some emergent tensions that seem interesting. And of course, it is hard to say yet how things will shake out with spells coming from missions. The friends who don't like to explore caves are very goal driven and tend to gravitate towards missions; perhaps I'll be the one begging them for spells!

We will leave more feedback once we play 1.04, of course. Looking forward to testing all the new stuff!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 02:09:11 PM by Brise Bonbons »

Offline x4000

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 02:37:46 PM »
It will definitely be a different dynamic, and something that we'll need to explore through playtesting to understand fully.  I think that, in general, the new system is far better than the old and a lot more intuitive to grasp without needing a lot of extra explanations.  The fact that the old system let each players spend a copy of each picked up item was so unclear that Gamespot or somesuch claimed there was ninja loot stealing in the game (though that was never the case).

All that said, I don't claim the new system is perfect; and once things are in player hands we can do some extra additions, etc, to shore up anything that is needed.  Right now there are so many things changing all at once that the final balance is hard to succinctly explain, to be honest.

The other thing that was really kind of wrong with the old system was that it so very much encouraged "separate but on the same server" type of gameplay.  The new system is neutral on that point: if you adventure together, you all get all the rewards.  If you adventure apart, you each get whatever rewards you individually pursue.  That seems better to me than something that inherently rewards players for fragmenting themselves as much as possible, since each one of them that collects something is really collecting n number of copies of that thing where n is the number of possible players.

That did mean you were being actively punished for actually adventuring with your friends on the same chunks with you, though that was never our intent.  And this release solves that, at the very least.
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Offline nanostrike

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 02:42:34 PM »
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

This is what kinda gets my attention.  If you have to be in the same place at the same time as someone to get any benefit and otherwise have to go scavenge by yourself...you're basically playing single player if you're not following someone 100% of the time.

Offline x4000

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2012, 02:46:23 PM »
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

This is what kinda gets my attention.  If you have to be in the same place at the same time as someone to get any benefit and otherwise have to go scavenge by yourself...you're basically playing single player if you're not following someone 100% of the time.

Not true.  As they tier up the world and complete events, your tier also goes up.  Not the tier of your spells... but your actual character improves, etc.
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Offline MouldyK

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2012, 02:50:31 PM »
That did mean you were being actively punished for actually adventuring with your friends on the same chunks with you, though that was never our intent.  And this release solves that, at the very least.

You are still punished as long as the "Enemies Double In Power" is still there as it means that if you both wanna collect, you have to fight harder enemies unless you are both actively shooting at the same thing. Unless the key is to play Multiplayer on 1 difficulty lower than you would single player.



Not true.  As they tier up the world and complete events, your tier also goes up.  Not the tier of your spells... but your actual character improves, etc.

So players get stronger per tier now? Or what aspects do they improve?

Offline LayZboy

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Re: A Concern Re: Removal of Settlement Stockpile in 1.04
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2012, 02:51:18 PM »
The system is the same: you both go to a stash and find X resource, and you both pick up a copy of it that goes in your own personal stockpiles.

So, basically I still have to go there and collect it myself. Almost as if I was playing single-player?

This is what kinda gets my attention.  If you have to be in the same place at the same time as someone to get any benefit and otherwise have to go scavenge by yourself...you're basically playing single player if you're not following someone 100% of the time.

Not true.  As they tier up the world and complete events, your tier also goes up.  Not the tier of your spells... but your actual character improves, etc.

That makes it sound even worse than single-player if I'm honest.