A beginner's impressions

[keith.lamothe]

Just D/L'd the game and figured I'd toss in my own opinions.

Uh oh, the AI will get jealous

Now I have logs.  I assume they'll be useful somewhere.

Useful when you need to figure out what happened to your server while you were in that boss tower.

Oh, those logs.  Yea, used in building stuff.

* So I get past the acidic water and have no clue what I'm supposed to do in the next screen.  My 'platforms' don't sit in the air, apparently, so it's not like I'm supposed to use these for step-stones.

Platforms float

* The Dungeon map is going to take some serious getting used to, after goofing around in the atriums and living rooms.  I still haven't figured out how to get at that first warp gate that I saw.

The Dungeon map is probably as good as it can get, it's gone through a ton of revision.  Procedural worlds with a bunch of separate chunks with no firm spatial correlation aren't very mappable   But in general folks have been able to figure it out, and I don't think there was much angst about it at PAX East even with folks playing with a 15 minute timer in the midst of a slavering swarm of game-related humanoids people watching.

* Is it necessary to pop in/out of the warp gates to activate them?  Kind of annoying.

Got a laugh out of that, that's like the 4th total rework of how to interact with the warp system, and was just implemented last night   This is less annoying/problematic than the previous iterations.

Now, I know I'm gonna die, but getting jammed like that is horribly annoying.

At least no Raid Engines were involved.

Excellent!  I'm now playing a game of Lemmings!

You've figured it out!  Yea, can't run out of those guys.

* What would really be nice is if I could duplicate platforms in my inventory.  I find I use one set for traveling with lights and another for combat.  Being able to have platforms on both would be really handy.

Not pre-1.0, and if I had my way never, but I know Chris wants it too.  The problem implementation-wise is that it's basically implementing "symbolic links" in the inventory system (your action bar is just one row in your inventory, quite literally).  I've got enough experience with those in filesystems to not want to be responsible for maintaining such a thing.

* Is there a way to see information/chunk map without having to be in the chunk?

No, the chunks are either on disk (if you've been there) or don't even exist yet (if you haven't).

* Meh, there's no way to heal up without killing an enemy?  Baaaah.

Bwahahaha.

* One of the things it mentions is to get tier 2 spells, and that critters won't be immune to more than one element.  Then again, I just faced that yellow glob with a red heart that was 99% immune to air and fire.  Hmmmm.

Rule #2: Games Lie.

But yea, it should say that almost nothing has more than 1 resistance.

* So exploring, I go for a boss tower mission.  I'm exploring the little settlement/sheds/whathaveyou outside and I find some chests.  I pop them and these colored lights fly out and come to me... but I get no notification of what I just received.  What was that?

A known bug, it's like #3 or #4 on my list right now.

Map creation seems a bit screwy, IE: how do you get out of the attached image?  I had to abandon the character.  Also, do you really need all those cardboard boxes?  Yikes.

How did you get down there?  I thought it took powerslide or something like that.

All in all, an interesting game, just minor things at this point I'd say.  I intend to keep messing around with the trial a bit but nice game.

Glad you're enjoying it   Hopefully it will do well and keep growing in insane and unfriendly ways like AI War

[Wanderer]

Got a laugh out of that, that's like the 4th total rework of how to interact with the warp system, and was just implemented last night   This is less annoying/problematic than the previous iterations.

LOL, figures.  What about E to activate, THEN E to enter?

Not pre-1.0, and if I had my way never, but I know Chris wants it too.  The problem implementation-wise is that it's basically implementing "symbolic links" in the inventory system (your action bar is just one row in your inventory, quite literally).  I've got enough experience with those in filesystems to not want to be responsible for maintaining such a thing.

Considering I now have something like 280 platforms, how about splitting them to 140/140 instead of trying to do replication?

No, the chunks are either on disk (if you've been there) or don't even exist yet (if you haven't).

I meant the ones I'd been to.  Still need to go back and explain a few things to those bats...

* So exploring, I go for a boss tower mission.  I'm exploring the little settlement/sheds/whathaveyou outside and I find some chests.  I pop them and these colored lights fly out and come to me... but I get no notification of what I just received.  What was that?

A known bug, it's like #3 or #4 on my list right now.

Ah, so, nothing now?  Stop blowing up random bits in the scenery I guess?

How did you get down there?  I thought it took powerslide or something like that.

Carefully?  I crouched and walked, kinda, and popped down.  Figured I'd be able to crate my way up or something but no beuno.  I wanted that treasure!  I've not made that mistake again... but still, annoying to get cut off like that on either side of it.

[Wanderer]

One other thing, is there a way to lock the mouse onto the screen?  I run dual monitors and in the middle of heated fights I keep clicking off the edge and dropping the game to minimized in full-screen mode because I use the edges for highest accuracy of targetting.

[Terraziel]

* Is it necessary to pop in/out of the warp gates to activate them?  Kind of annoying.

Got a laugh out of that, that's like the 4th total rework of how to interact with the warp system, and was just implemented last night   This is less annoying/problematic than the previous iterations.

I have to say i much preferred the previous system, now it just feels like i'm being forced through a couple of extra screen transitions for no reason. That said rather than reverting completely, because clearly there was a reason for the change even if i can't really figure out what it was, can you at least put back in the ability to use them from just standing in front of them? it was considerably less irritating.

[mrhanman]

I like the way warp gates are done now.  I kept hitting E over them and getting a wall of text, regardless of how many time I chided myself for doing it.  It doesn't necessarily need to drop you into another room, though.  Maybe just magnify the dungeon map and make you invulnerable, or something.

[x4000]

Oh gods, you guys are overwhelming me.  Seriously, I'm not really looking for stream of consciousness criticisms right before release.  A few brief notes:

1. No, there's no way to lock the mouse onto the screen.  As with AI War, and a jillion times people have asked me, it's a limitation of the engine.

2. I don't see any reason not to allow standing in front of a warp gate and then using it, but I don't plan to advertise that.  The screen transition is really fast and makes you "invincible."  And in general is vastly more clear to new players.  But if advanced players want to do it by standing in front of it, I don't see any reason why not.

3. In terms of seeing any sort of map that you currently can't see, that's not possible; it's not in RAM.

4. Looks like Keith nijna'd me on most of this. 


Not that we don't need feedback -- because we do -- but please be kind to my fragile mental state for the next week or so, if it's all the same to folks here.  This is the most incredibly stressful time for me, and we already have tons of stuff lined up that we need to do in the next week, and suggesting large and scary changes to the game at the 11th hour isn't helpful.  Again, not that we don't want the feedback... but mainly what we're looking for is things that are losing you (NOT in the intro mission -- we have plenty of data on that at this point, and chances are if you're complaining about it its either already on our list or you aren't reading tombstones), or things that are just flat out bugs.

Apologies if I sound ornery, but it's late, I have low blood sugar, and I need to go eat apparently.

[Wanderer]

Oh gods, you guys are overwhelming me.  Seriously, I'm not really looking for stream of consciousness criticisms right before release.  A few brief notes:

1. No, there's no way to lock the mouse onto the screen.  As with AI War, and a jillion times people have asked me, it's a limitation of the engine.

2. I don't see any reason not to allow standing in front of a warp gate and then using it, but I don't plan to advertise that.  The screen transition is really fast and makes you "invincible."  And in general is vastly more clear to new players.  But if advanced players want to do it by standing in front of it, I don't see any reason why not.

3. In terms of seeing any sort of map that you currently can't see, that's not possible; it's not in RAM.

4. Looks like Keith nijna'd me on most of this. 

Fair enough, sorry Chris.

Not that we don't need feedback -- because we do -- but please be kind to my fragile mental state for the next week or so, if it's all the same to folks here.  This is the most incredibly stressful time for me, and we already have tons of stuff lined up that we need to do in the next week, and suggesting large and scary changes to the game at the 11th hour isn't helpful.  Again, not that we don't want the feedback... but mainly what we're looking for is things that are losing you (NOT in the intro mission -- we have plenty of data on that at this point, and chances are if you're complaining about it its either already on our list or you aren't reading tombstones), or things that are just flat out bugs.

Apologies if I sound ornery, but it's late, I have low blood sugar, and I need to go eat apparently.

No worries, you don't sound ornery.  STRESSED?  Yes.  But not ornery.    Not sure what, if anything ,was large and scary, but no worries... I ain't da one making the pretty programs. 

Gameplay is pretty straightforward, just minor bits and pieces.  Most of it's pretty solid.  There's some things that are losing me, like I've gotten the same enchantment 3 times with minor variations and it seems like I should be able to combine them or something, but it's fine otherwise.  Any real bugs or whatnot I'm dropping into mantis, so no worries there.  Some of this is just more 'what am I not seeing' or 'I'm doin' it wrong, heeeelllllp... '

Sorry hoss, didn't mean ta freak ya.  It's a fun game.   Dark Souls frustrating in some ways... but I LIKE Dark Souls... 

Edit: If it helps any, I just bought a key.

[x4000]

Cheers, it's really no worry.  And I really don't want to scare folks off from feeling free to give feedback, because that would really be shooting myself in the foot.

Main scary stuff on my end is taking some of the comments out of context, for instance not knowing if you were going to want to get into a debate about the sources of healing or the way in which the mechanics of wooden platforms were introduced, etc.  At this point those are both things we have a ton of as-empirical-data-as-possible on, and I just need to be able to keep a pin in some gameplay elements and ignore them while the elements that are actually more of a problem for more people are addressed in short order.

Plus having some folks suddenly complaining about the brand new warp mechanics that we just implemented based on what I felt was very solid player advice about why the new way is better than the old one, was not exactly the good news I was hoping for.  But still, having the "you can stand inside it or outside it" solution should appease all parties, I think, so that's easy and hopefully placates all camps.

Anyway, don't mind me, I'm just looking at my to-do list and kind of flipping out a bit; and then every email or forum post aimed my way, especially if it's long and filled with suggestions, just adds to that at the moment.  Give me another week or two and I won't feel that way anymore, but right now Shipping Is A Feature, Too (har, har) and I'm mostly looking to clean up what is there as well as... let's see... finish the art for the 99 achievements Keith added today, finish the list of tweaks we learned about from PAX East, add elite versions of basically every monster, add 8ish new monsters, redo the mouse cursor, improve the supply depot mission with those four kinds of crates instead of 1, add stealth indicators for stealth mode, and add ideally another 15-20 new spells.  And much better gamepad support, oh yeah.  Most of that to come between now and the end of Tuesday if we're to hit our deadline with any grace.

So... yeah.  That's why I'm a wee bit stressed.   It's a doable schedule, which is the craziest part, but not if I take any time off, get distracted talking to people, etc.  So fair warning to everyone: I'm going to try to be as un-chatty as possible for the next little while, to make sure I can get all this stuff done.  I'll see you on the other side.

[Wanderer]

No, I had no intent on trying to debate with a lead dev a week before launch trying to introduce scope creep.  I'm just not that cruel... particulary when my own recent big project just had that go down and I nearly strangled the business for it... XD

Just was throwing my two cents in, I got it eventually and it wasn't so long I was frustrated, no biggie.

See ya on the other side Chris.  I'll go annoy Keith about AI War or something in the meanwhile...

Ooooooooooh, KEEEEEEIIIIITTTTTHHHHH.......  about those MRS's you recently modified.... *swaps forums*

[Penumbra]

... finish the art for the 99 achievements Keith added today, finish the list of tweaks we learned about from PAX East, add elite versions of basically every monster, add 8ish new monsters, redo the mouse cursor, improve the supply depot mission with those four kinds of crates instead of 1, add stealth indicators for stealth mode, and add ideally another 15-20 new spells.  And much better gamepad support, oh yeah.

 

Best of luck!

Just to jump on the bandwagon of trying to wring an insane amount of work out of you guys in almost no time at all, but is the "extra inventory slot key bindings" on your short list? 

P.S. Just to be sure, I mean this with tongue firmly in cheek. You guys have a great product here, and it keeps getting better! I know this is your livelihood, and profit is the goal, but it really feels like you are just making a game for me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way, too. There is a personal touch you add that just can't be beat.

[Coppermantis]

I feel your guys' pain, I've made mods for Source Engine games for a while and it's a horrible feeling when you have a near-finished product and someone finds a load of issues. Especially this close to release, must be really stressful. I'm happy to hear that you got positive feedback at PAX East though.

[zebramatt]

Maybe this business of not knowing where platforms can and can't be placed could be solved relatively trivially with a opt-out message or similar.

If there IS such a business, I mean.

[jonasan]

This is completely beyond the scope of 1.0 i'm sure and i wont ramble for your sake but it strikes me with all the talk of acclimatising players in the early game, and that famous 'people don't read' quote, that one possible way to try and communicate the combat style and gameplay mechanics in the intro mission would be to have you start with the company of an AI controlled glyph bearer who has obviously been around the world before and is fairly adept at dealing with monsters, using platforms, navigating buildings to stash rooms etc...

too much to do now i know, and this is no small suggestion, sorry if its one more crazy idea... just seems to be one way in which the concepts people are missing could be really well demonstrated.

any enough out of me... you don't have time for endless reading i'm sure ... best of luck, and fabulous game guys!

[x4000]

Cheers guys, all good.  I appreciate all the kind words, and would write more, but... you know.

On the "players don't read" thing, two brief thoughts:

1. I don't really care if they don't read if they figure it out intuitively.

2. If they don't read and don't figure it out intuitively, then the game should kill their character and have a handy place for them to do that reading they skipped the first time.  So that after a death (or two max) in the same place, they actually bother to read that tombstone and then have that "ohhh" sort of moment.

That's my philosophy for now, anyhow!

[keith.lamothe]

2. If they don't read and don't figure it out intuitively, then the game should kill their character

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!