Arcen Games

Games => The Last Federation => Topic started by: x4000 on November 12, 2014, 01:57:33 PM

Title: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 12, 2014, 01:57:33 PM
Original: http://arcengames.com/tlf-version-1-900-tutorial-and-story-touches/

Version 1.900 is final touches in preparation for the launch of version 2.0 and the full release of the expansion this Friday the 14th (just a couple of days from now!).

The big things in this new version are that the tutorials have all been extensively updated for the new modes, and the story segments for the new modes have also been finished.  The tutorials are always one of the last things that we update when we're doing an expansion for a game, because things tend to be evolving during the beta and we learn a lot from what questions people have.  The time has come, however, for all that to finally come together in the actual game.

If you were previously having a hard time getting going in Invasion mode or Betrayal mode, you should be good to go now.  Of course if you still have any questions, please do let us know.  But the new tutorials for those modes go out of their way not just to tell you how to do the things that are unique to those modes, but also to give you some strategy advice.

 

Let us know how things are looking, if you have suggestions or bug reports, etc!

More to come soon. Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the in-game updater, or if you have Steam it will automatically update it for you. To force Steam to download it faster, just restart Steam and it will do so.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 12, 2014, 08:36:34 PM
Wow, it's just about release time already.   Been an interesting beta period, that's for sure.

Here's hoping this ends up doing well.... it'd be nice to see further expansions down the line for this game.

Are you still starting the next game's beta in January?  The 4X one?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 12, 2014, 08:41:02 PM
Thanks Misery!  So far so good in terms of signs this will do well.  It's sold extremely well in beta, for one thing.  We'll see what happens on actual launch.

For Stars Beyond Reach, we'll probably do a very limited private alpha with just a few people we invite in mid-January, and then a larger beta starting in mid-February.  We're looking at a May release for that game; April is pretty well ruled out by now, unfortunately.  That project is still going quite well, but I just need to get this TLF stuff behind me so that I can actually focus on the new project properly, and then we'll really be off to the races. ;)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Aklyon on November 12, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
If I'm not getting things mixed up, isn't Stars the first game Arcen's had time to not rush on at one point or another, or something similarly worded? Hows that been like if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 12, 2014, 09:22:58 PM
Well, it's too early to call "not rushing" until the project is done, eh? ;)

I mean, all our projects are not rushed for at least some portion of them.  And then at some point they become rushed.  I think Bionic Dues was actually not rushed at any point, IIRC, and that was really nice.  Though we did have to get it out without time for proper marketing efforts, so there was that.  But production-wise it wasn't rushed.

Anyway, thus far it's been a great project; my huge frustration has been not getting to work on it as much as I want.  I love TLF, and every time I come back to work on it I just get sucked in for far longer than I mean to.  And the same thing happens on SBR.  So... yeah, I kind of get "caught between two masters," so to speak.  I've been trying to really give TLF some TLC so that it can be nice and stable and happy for a while, and I can just let myself get subsumed in SBR and not have that be a problem.

Anyway, on the actual question you asked me: ask me again in May or June, and hopefully I will have a positive answer for you. ;)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 12, 2014, 10:15:59 PM
Just booted this up, and the tutorials have done their job. I feel the "spark" of growing excitement as I learn the different playbook and tools for Betrayal mode. Wide smile here!

I no longer feel confused because I know what I can and cannot do.  Things are pretty clear.

Well done!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 12, 2014, 10:17:09 PM
Sweeeet! :D

Glad to hear it, and I hope you enjoy!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 12, 2014, 10:21:11 PM
Thanks Misery!  So far so good in terms of signs this will do well.  It's sold extremely well in beta, for one thing.  We'll see what happens on actual launch.

For Stars Beyond Reach, we'll probably do a very limited private alpha with just a few people we invite in mid-January, and then a larger beta starting in mid-February.  We're looking at a May release for that game; April is pretty well ruled out by now, unfortunately.  That project is still going quite well, but I just need to get this TLF stuff behind me so that I can actually focus on the new project properly, and then we'll really be off to the races. ;)

Well you certainly have my usual volunteering for whatever, whenever that all gets going.

Particularly interested in that one, as I love all of the ideas behind the 4X genre, but some of the things that seem to happen with nearly ALL of them just absolutely bug the hell outta me.  Like the loooooooooooooong production times for any unit/tech/thing, or the usual alarmingly stupid AI that plagues much of the genre...

I mean, games like Civ and such are great and all, but still.... those two things, argh.  But yeah, yours sounds interesting from what I read over on the forum section for it.  Though "interesting" is pretty much par for the course from you guys, I think, hah


EDIT:  And I might throw a stats file at you later (maybe).  I meant to test a few specific things yesterday, but Isaac and Five Nights at Freddy's both happened too much last night.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 12, 2014, 10:58:19 PM
Thanks on all counts! :D
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 12, 2014, 11:07:18 PM
I still find the probe scaling to be too hard. Even with "half probes" for the first mission I still find 3 or 4 arcs of fire over the chokepoint, and that doesn't seem fun for the *first* spacefaring mission.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 08:46:57 AM
It's not really a mission that you have to take, though.  And if you watch the patterns, they move as the ships move.  So you fly near to them, and then keep moving through them.

Hmm.  I will have to do an LP showing those, I think.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 09:05:33 AM
It's not really a mission that you have to take, though.  And if you watch the patterns, they move as the ships move.  So you fly near to them, and then keep moving through them.

Hmm.  I will have to do an LP showing those, I think.

That would help more experienced players.  But my larger worry is for newer players who just want to jump in while the iron is still hot after the tutorial.

And when I say 3 or 4 arcs of fire, i mean it forms a diamond like structure. That is at one time, because there  a dozen probes on Betrayal mode hard for mission 1.  Perhaps for a SHUMP expert there is a pattern, but I just see every right angle covered by 3 or 4 overlapping fields of fire. I understand you can wait, but after 50 turns I found no hole large enough for the 2 or 3 turns to get there.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 09:21:31 AM
Hmm, I will have to mull that.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 13, 2014, 09:27:47 AM
  Perhaps for a SHUMP expert there is a pattern, but I just see every right angle covered by 3 or 4 overlapping fields of fire.

No, you're right, they're uncrossable when they do that.   MAYBE in a proper bullet-hell type shmup that might make sense, but the player ship's hitbox in this game is a bloated whale compared to the tiny hitboxes used in those.  Typically the way past... or I guess I should say, the way past without taking *any* hits (if I dont do it bloody perfectly, it bothers me too much) does require a good bit of waiting, when it does that.  Or a good bit of the RNG not being a jerk.  In some cases you can try to go around the other side of the area.... but this takes bloody forever.


Hm, one suggestion:  Make it so that the probes have to stay a certain distance away from one another?  I'm not ENTIRELY sure this would work.... what you're essentially trying to do is make a maze of bullets with randomly placed firing locations that move in random directions (and fire very fast bullets, even if they have little range). Right now though it's pretty much like the old version of that mission.  They essentially project a bubble around themselves that the player cannot enter without a high chance of taking hits, which is very similar to the effect of the previous probes, that had the radar bubbles, accomplishing the same thing.   It can be possible to get through based on the directions that their firing points are facing, but with the sheer randomness, and the tendancy for there to be heaps of these things, it can very frequently produce impassible walls.  So then you have to go around looking for some that arent producing that, and that takes time....

It's not that these missions become totally unbeatable or anything.... it's that they take forever and can frustrate. And with the glowing red circles gone, players might have a MUCH harder time now spotting a point where they can approach the overall probe field.  And yeah, I know, you're not really meant to do many of these.... I usually do 2 and leave it at that... but it seems too much for being just the first or second one of these, when on the lower difficulties. New players almost definitely will find this annoying, which can be a problem when it's one of the very first battle missions they undertake after getting the game.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 09:28:19 AM
One thing that I've been mulling in general for Betrayal mode might solve this: and that's not allowing the players to deliver spacefaring tech to races at all.  That shuts off an early avenue for making friends and gaining credit, and I think it would be a very interesting twist on that mode that the Hydral isn't willing to divulge that sort of technology (and thematically that makes perfect sense, and the game would tell you why).

In the regular game mode, you get other combat prior to this, no matter what.  In Invasion mode, everyone is spacefaring from the start anyhow.  That would basically make the spacefaring-tech missions regular-mode-only for the moment.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 13, 2014, 09:33:46 AM
One thing that I've been mulling in general for Betrayal mode might solve this: and that's not allowing the players to deliver spacefaring tech to races at all.  That shuts off an early avenue for making friends and gaining credit, and I think it would be a very interesting twist on that mode that the Hydral isn't willing to divulge that sort of technology (and thematically that makes perfect sense, and the game would tell you why).

In the regular game mode, you get other combat prior to this, no matter what.  In Invasion mode, everyone is spacefaring from the start anyhow.  That would basically make the spacefaring-tech missions regular-mode-only for the moment.

Thoughts?


Hmm, one possible idea for the regular mode:  How about making it so that you essentially can give spacefaring to one race without doing that at all? Like, okay, you get offa the starting planet, and the ones you stole from havent the foggiest idea that you want to actually GIVE that to anyone.... so they havent sent probes out yet.  Once you've given it to someone though, the probes appear at any future ones.

It means that those that find it to be a bit much can at least get one other race spacefaring, giving them someone to work with, and giving them the option to have any particular race not have to deal with a possible large wait time, if it's a race they decide they want ASAP.  And then of course, if they think they can, they can go do a couple more. 



Betrayal mode I dont have enough experience with to advise on.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 09:58:10 AM
One thing that I've been mulling in general for Betrayal mode might solve this: and that's not allowing the players to deliver spacefaring tech to races at all.  That shuts off an early avenue for making friends and gaining credit, and I think it would be a very interesting twist on that mode that the Hydral isn't willing to divulge that sort of technology (and thematically that makes perfect sense, and the game would tell you why).

In the regular game mode, you get other combat prior to this, no matter what.  In Invasion mode, everyone is spacefaring from the start anyhow.  That would basically make the spacefaring-tech missions regular-mode-only for the moment.

Thoughts?

In my current Betrayal mode, I already difficult enough as it is to justify aiding any race for any reason. The stakes are simply too skewed toward ATTACK! As it is, my optimal build for next game may not cause space faring anyway.

Current method to my madness for Betrayal (on hard):

1. Find spacefaring race.
2. Raid their armadas until they are no more.
3. Park my own armadas.
4. Bomb the population until there is no more.
5. Planet falls.

Rinse and repeat. It doesn't even really matter if some takes the planet later, it is a lifeless husk. The only exception is the Thorxians, but I'll kill them last. Following this policy, I wouldn't want to give space tech anyway, since it gives me more time to focus fewer opponents.

My own planet is a huge liability, and early game is my strongest, so I do scorched Earth.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 11:07:51 AM
Saw the new patch notes.

The whole reason I didn't help races was because it simply takes to long. Taking years to get to neutral relations simply is to much risk. But I'll let you know if I still can't brute force on Hard mode with the new changes.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 11:09:43 AM
Sounds good!  And yep, somehow I forgot to mention that 2.0 just went live. ;)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 12:40:51 PM
For 2.0, genocide took 56 solar months. I probably could shave off a few months if I was a perfectionist. No idea if this is the desired length.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 01:05:32 PM
56 solar months, or years?  There are 40 months in a year, so I'm guessing there's no possible way it was just months.  The end year was 3056, is that right?

Anyway, that's a respectable number.  Anywhere in the 30+ range is a good length of game, 90+ is going on way too long and the game starts trying to kill everyone. ;)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 01:21:07 PM
No, months. Year was 3002.

(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/52117710388896710/0DA5D8CB16166D4A4C7815A46DD0BDCFAA7A97F7/)


Last planet, about a month tops from the final wipe.

Pic was for hard/hard.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 01:35:07 PM
Well... that's certainly... different.  Apparently you've found a much more effective strategy than others.  Hmmm, will look at this.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 01:40:42 PM
Actually, we may as well chat about things here.  The basic things that I see as being potential issues are:

1. The other alien races not getting pissed enough at you and attacking you for your deeds.
2. The other aliens not being able to keep up with you manufacturing-wise.  Possibly player manufacturing or resource income levels need a nerf, or the costs of armada improvements need to be increased.
3. The player being able to single-handedly wipe out huge swathes of the enemy armadas with their own flagship.  That's not really something that is intended in general.

One idea that would address both 2 and 3 to some extent would be to make it so that the AI produces armadas faster.  That could get into frustrating stalemates, though.

Another approach would be to increase the cost of player armada upgrades, and to increase the baseline time taken for players doing frontal assaults on enemy planets with their own flagships.

Possibly also to add a stiff influence hit every time you capture a planet, too.

You and the AI are basically playing two different games in most senses, and right now the player economy and abilities are clearly far outclassing the AI ones.  All of a sudden.

Thoughts on the above options?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 01:44:34 PM
Oh, another option is to make it so that the AI races all get some sort of "fear boost" to their space power every time you take a planet.  So losing and retaking a planet is a bigger deal, and in general the more planets you take, the more risky direct combat on your part becomes.  You'd still be able to make what are essentially super-armadas compared to what the AI has, as now, but that would solve a lot of the other problems.  That plus an influence hit on planet capture might be all that is needed, not sure.  Possibly also a temporary "fear-based manufacturing boost" for the other AIs whenever you take a planet, too.

Basically making it so that they react strongly to you taking a planet, and thus everybody suddenly reinforces a bunch.  If you have too much back and forth with planets, that becomes a huge liability fast, and you wind up spiraling into a loss.  If you rush through too many planets really fast, they wind up outclassing you militarily AND hating you as a group, so you need to step back and work on making them fight one another some, and also work on your own techs.

That sort of flow is more how I'd been playing, and more the idea in general.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 02:08:48 PM
Hmm, we can do the chat here. I'll have to take a step back though explain the "strategic situation" I found myself with though with Betrayal mode in general first.

Let us consider, relative to the player and AI in terms of relative assets.

Player assets:

A very very strong single ship that, if not destroyed, escapes from combat with no lost in resources aside from time.
The ability to more adeptly pursue research...if that is the only thing needed.
A win at all costs attitude, casualties are meaningless if you win. The goal is to not build a healthy happy empire. The goal is to destroy everything.

AI assets:
The ability perform simultaneous actions at once, such as constructing building and researching techs.
Much deeper access to resources to replace armada losses (it seems)
Vastly greater populations and thus the ability to replace them
The ability to band together and cooperate in  a much greater fashion.
Aside from the Hydral, neutral to everyone.
AI learns superweapons and other unique techs.

In summary, the tactical situation is that the hydral starts out with (single flagship) tactical advantage, but the AI will be able to quickly  overwhelm the player diplomatically, economically, and technologically.

The solution, then, is to exterminate them as fast as possible.

So for your points.

It is not 1 or 2. Actually, because of how extreme 1 and 2 are, 3 becomes the tactic of choice. Oh no that's the right word. It is THE tactic, period. Wipe out the armadas ASAP. Keep them dead. It is the only option. If they get to your world, your paltry armadas don't stand a chance. If they get on the ground, your puny population won't stand a chance.

As to your other ideas:

Regarding player armadas. They were troop transports, period. They were no use aside from this. My armadas were already pathetically weak against the enemy. The Boarines I had left alone for 1.5 years, and they got 780ish armada power. The peak of my armada power was like 400.  These upgrades were funded from previous conquests, they would be weaker if I was peaceful. Increasing the player armadas cost will put even more pressure on the player flagship.

Similarly, increase the enemy armada construction speed (and the resources to fund this) would only put me further behind, further increasing the pressure for the flagship to perform.

As far as influence, it already has tanked. From the very start (day 1) , every race who went space faring started attacking me. Further hits are meaningless. It is because they start so low that I felt no lose in murdering everyone.

Increasing baseline time for player flagship attacks is the only thing that would help so far...but that would increase the gaps that could cause the player planet to fall. For example, at the end of my game I just had the Peltians. I simply couldn't kill them fast enough so I finally broke-down and research some nanotubes. During that 6 month period, my 3 fleets of 400 power had dropped to 200 power because a single armada was spawned to defend it while I was gone.

So...to bring this all back around.

My single flagship smashed all the other armadas then I bombed the planet to dust. It was the only logical choice. The other empires will outpace me quickly in every-way, and they all want me dead from day 1. My single flagship would never be as relatively strong then from day 1, so I exploited it.

If you nerf the flagship, you must make peace a reasonable strategic choice, otherwise I will use the ship anyway for it the only real player advantage.

Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 13, 2014, 03:11:24 PM
I don't think the Flagship needs to be nerfed.

Rather, I think in Betrayal Mode, like Invasion mode, all races should start in space, and given them some sort of significant starting armada. Make it enough that if you send your defenders away, everyone else would jump on you. Maybe a temporary 'modification
 of the strength as far as the AIs see it until you conquer your first world that makes them think it much stronger then it is. So, well you only have 3 Amarda to start, they think it something more like 100, so long as all three are still in orbit of your home world. As soon as they get sent away, the AI realizes that they were not made up of copies of your Flagship like they first though, and rather are quite weak.

So they all shift their vaules back down to what they all were to start.

Even thematically would fit in nice. You are a Hydra, the last member of the race that ruled the Solar System. They expect you to have ships powerful enough to do that, until they can learn that you do not.

This makes it so you need to get them, distracted or busy somehow. Rather then a simple just stab everyone in the face. And it also makes it so that once you take a world, you better be ready to fight off the counter attack.



Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: nas1m on November 13, 2014, 03:28:43 PM
I am also against nerfing the player flagship. Being an evil Batman is a big part of the fun for me...
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 03:38:50 PM
I'm not really keen on nerfing things, either.  I prefer to make it exciting on both sides, rather than having it feel like the player is artificially handicapped.

To that end, here are the changes (which are now out): http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.001

Basic summary of it:

1. I did the various things that I was originally contemplating, because I believe they are likely to be important for mid-game balance and in particular to keep runaway early victories from being possible.

2. That said, I buffed the heck out of the players' ability to have and upgrade and use armadas.  It's not that you can't be an awesome batman -- you still can -- but now your armadas are actually thrillingly powerful and it's something where you can definitely be the most powerful race in the solar system... but you still are not more powerful than EVERYBODY.  So you either have time to make friends, now, or else consolidate power more and use your batman powers in addition to that.

3. You also get more armadas from the start (and, realistically, in general), which makes a big difference to your ability to both defend planets and attack planets at the same time.

Thoughts will be welcome.  I find it very hard to replicate your strategy, chemical_art, but that was true when I tried it even prior to this patch.  So I'll be curious to see what you make of it.

The main thing for me is that I'm actually having a lot more fun in this mode from the start, particularly with armadas.  Before it really took a long period of building before I "got to the good part."  Now it starts in the good part, which is fun. :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 03:48:25 PM

Thoughts will be welcome.  I find it very hard to replicate your strategy, chemical_art, but that was true when I tried it even prior to this patch.  So I'll be curious to see what you make of it.

The main thing for me is that I'm actually having a lot more fun in this mode from the start, particularly with armadas.  Before it really took a long period of building before I "got to the good part."  Now it starts in the good part, which is fun. :)

Changes look good. However the most key is a note on diplomacy.

In practice, from day 1, the enemy regularly attacked me. So any penalties to diplomacy are simply meaningless. Without making it so the other races don't at the start attack me, I'm going to attack them anyway. With these changes I'll make it a point rather then inclination to destroy the biggest threats first rather then the weakest. But until a measure is put that makes it so that I both get unique benefits for being friendly and an actual penalty for low relations, the number between -100 and -1000 in practice doesn't seem to matter.

Other notes:

I hope those fear bonuses stack. My last game was shorter then 80 months.   >D

I'll rev up those nukes soon though and let you know how far I can go before the world solar system implodes.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 13, 2014, 04:09:08 PM
Thoughts will be welcome.  I find it very hard to replicate your strategy, chemical_art, but that was true when I tried it even prior to this patch.  So I'll be curious to see what you make of it.

I done the same thing that Chemical_art has done, Although I did it with a Thats so OP combat and a difficulty of Hard, So I really did not think that much of it. Given I basically did the exact same thing. Go in, kill all the attackers, send in my robot well I bomb the population down to nothing.

Granted that was a few version back, so I don't know how all the changes since then have effected what I did that game.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 04:28:58 PM
Haha. :)

The fear bonuses do stack.

And in terms of diplomacy, the races typically won't attack -- much -- if you are a lot stronger than them.  So consolidating your planet, then doing nice things for some of them to make them like you, can win you some points.  Then get them fighting between themselves, and then spread out.

You basically have three forces to work with: races vs races; your flagship vs anyone; your armadas vs anyone.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 13, 2014, 05:17:10 PM
I just did a quick run though on the easiest setting on Betryal mode, it took me about 62 months or so to win.

I am sure that I could trim it down a bit, as I did a bit more research then I needed, and I needed less population then I thought to take over the Galaxy. My longest break was getting the seed population I needed to attack. Once that was done, it was orbital bombs, tactical support and every armada in orbit above the planet and a very quick victory.

Order you go in really matters, with the Thoralaxians going first and the Burlists second and starting with the Acutians, made the later part fairly quick.

Now, this was on Easy, so I can accept it. When i got more time, I am going to try again on normal or hard and see what I can pull out.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 05:35:00 PM
4 planets down in 14 months. Things are really heating up.

(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/52117710393951572/AFFE0054A3B9D6B83C9D5CA44922085C9117E040//)

The gloves should be coming off. I'm excited.

Predicted order of conquest is dark blue, light blue, purple, orange.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 05:41:21 PM
Extra bit: The AI is trying!

(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/52117710394060370/3CD18AAF488BA00C59A9306D47B4FD0D464A4230/)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 06:43:43 PM
Good lord, you two are wizards!  ;)

I tried like 3 times today and could not remotely replicate that sort of thing.

Seems like it is sort of putting up more of a fight now, but not like it is taking a more appropriate amount of time (kind of the opposite, really). Any ideas on ways to thwart yourself? Since I can't do that strategy effectively for some reason, I'm guessing at a remove. I really expected I had you with those last changes, for instance. But now you're even faster!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 07:15:41 PM
Good lord, you two are wizards!  ;)

I tried like 3 times today and could not remotely replicate that sort of thing.

Seems like it is sort of putting up more of a fight now, but not like it is taking a more appropriate amount of time (kind of the opposite, really). Any ideas on ways to thwart yourself? Since I can't do that strategy effectively for some reason, I'm guessing at a remove. I really expected I had you with those last changes, for instance. But now you're even faster!

I'm going to have to think a little while, because they are no easy solutions.

I mean there ARE solutions, like splitting technologies for ground troops between offense and defense. And offense techs come in mid game...but that doesn't really make sense in a space game (If you can travel between planets and secure orbit, you can conquer fixed defenses)
I suppose you COULD remove Orbital bombardment...but for the same reason, if you have engines that use controlled nuclear energy, you certainly learned how to use them with less control for weapons.

In the larger sense, as long as you have the concept of a super flagship being fun, the whole strategy phase is bonkers. It is impossible to balance both owning planets and a super flagship. One has to be more important.

The in-game description says attacking armadas on your own is suicidal...that has to be brought back somehow...I have an idea...let me flesh it out...
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
The solution I brainstormed was that what if...Betrayal mode didn't start right after the Hydra were wiped out...what if Betrayal mode happened after all the races were spacefaring...and had an uneasy truce.

The last Hydra was found in a coma years after the event, awakened, and then took over a planet. Did not wipe it out, just became a dictator. It has all the benefits and weakness of the race in terms of technology (everything else fairly irrelevant).

So...in short you become a Hive Queen...or a King of Birds.

The reasoning for all of this:

1. With the game starting in mid game, these early blitzkriegs are simply not effective. It is very easy to bomb 50M to dust, harder to bomb 500M, but almost impossible to bomb 5000M on your own.
2. With mid techs, there is a relativistic parity between player flagship and enemy, without the player necessarily being "hurt".
3. It allows a much more unique gameplay due to having access to unique technologies.


The biggest negative:

1. It would take a lot of work, worthy of yet another sequel :(


A "shortcut" would be to just have the game start at the mid game phase of the technology tree, with appropriate population levels.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 07:54:26 PM
23.8 solar months of genocide.

This will go two ways:

1) Many skirmishes to wear down the enemy fleets.
2)Play defense and intercept the enemy fleets before the troop transports follow. Sooner or later they will run out of ships...no more then 80 months from now.

Either doesn't sound fun, I do consider this a win.

Also attached save at end:

(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/52117710396138525/093952E7F7823881D12CB334806614C640AC6708/)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 08:29:36 PM
Okay, what you say makes a ton of sense.  I've thought about it a lot, and I think a tamer version of your suggestions might work.  We'll see: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.002

It certainly should be about impossible for you to pull off exactly what you were doing before, at least.  Also, this is now a situation where you'll immediately need to play defense, I'd expect, and focus on making a friend or two to go do some attacks for you.

By having some friends like that, you can avoid situations where you need to beat your head against a wall just to fully claim your win (as in the save you just posted).  The alternative, hopefully, is that you have no friends and everyone kills you, leading to a clear loss.  OR you patiently become militarily supreme, then slaughter everyone else.  Either way works for me, frankly. ;)

Hopefully this leads to more diversity of strategies here.  And really, still doing quite a bit of diplomacy is something that is supposed to be important in this game.  If you leave it at 7v1 indefinitely, it's supposed to crush you.

Anyway, fingers crossed that this feels better!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 08:37:16 PM
To your changes I just say:

"Hmmm"

Actually the first thing I say really is:

"I wish I tested this LAST week"

I'm sorry!


But anyway, the pirate plus the +10 year start changes are legitimate changes to curb my violence. I can't argue with these, or bypass them. Population is still a serious concern, and tech might be, but one problem at a time....I will legitamately have to play nice from the start...give me time and we will see what happens.


Anyway, we have certainly changed things from this morning about discussing spacefaring tech!  But I'll try playing nice...for once.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.001 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 13, 2014, 08:38:13 PM
I don't know what tech you have, but a bit of planet improvement (Get them all to about 5 or so) helps a LOT. Your population growth rate basically doubles. (Mine went from +0.5 to +1.0. +1.5 after I researched the pop techs.)

It does not take that much to take the Andors down, that 4.3 B power seems to act more like .43 B when it comes to them. A bit of prep work rather then right out attack, and you could take that world a lot quicker then just a flat out attack.

As for how to fix it, I think there is a fairly easy way, less then Chemical put out.

First of all, start all races space faring. The Alliances with each other sounds like a good idea too.

Give each race (save your own) a lot of starting population and Armadas, and a I mean a lot. They should start in the 30s range for Armadas and the low billions on population.

Make each race see your Armadas well they are at your 'home' world, appear to be worth the same as 20(or maybe more) of theirs until you take your first planet. This is to make certain that the entire galaxy does not attack you right away until you take over another world.

Perfect ingame justification. They know how powerful Hydra ships are. They think your fleets really are that strong until they see them in action against a world. The Spy probes reports the results to everyone when you take the first world, so they know that they were greatly overestimating you.

What this means is, you have a lot of work to do, either blowing up massive fleets (add some sort of counter attack option maybe?) Or getting sides to hate each other and fight each other. Then you can walk in and clean up.

Add in a 'Boss' at each world that appears in each fight (and something that disables them, be it mission, building or tech) and it will take time to get anywhere in a Betrayal mode.

It certainly changes the pacing of Betrayal mode, but in the end, I think it would feel like a real Betrayal mode. Your not knocking down people that just started to get to space. Rather you walking in after they are already built up, and removing them.

The end result of this, means when you take your first planet. You better be ready, because the rest of the races will realize what you are up to, and exactly how strong you are when you do.

EDIT:

Well the new version sneaked out well I was typing this. Even more mild then I suggested, but it is starting to move that way. I give the changes  a play later and see how they do.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 08:47:03 PM
First response:

HOLY...COW

Yes, these new time settings are simply...wow.

Nothing like dying because you decided to engage in combat yourself.

I wont say I didn't deserve this, but still it hurt.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 13, 2014, 08:55:30 PM
As a follow up:

The increased time for space combat is no fun.

There is little fun in defending your planet, and suffering 25% losses while defending yourself, then losing another 75% of the fleet from the lag time because the same race attacks again.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 13, 2014, 09:09:03 PM
As a follow up:

The increased time for space combat is no fun.

There is little fun in defending your planet, and suffering 25% losses while defending yourself, then losing another 75% of the fleet from the lag time because the same race attacks again.

That is one thing that should be tweaked.

Mainly because it makes no logical sense that well you were there fighting. The ships attacking, somehow destroyed the same ships you protected in the battle, durring the battle, without being in the battle at all.

I think the only reasonable way it can be taken is, when in a combat, if other ships show up to attack your planet over the time you are fighting they just join the combat when they get there.

Or they can't attack you until the combat time is over.

Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 13, 2014, 09:17:58 PM
Okay, the timing stuff has been backed out: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.003

I'm off for tonight, but if more changes are needed tomorrow then I'm thinking that it might be in the order of larger starting armadas for the other races, them being reluctant to attack you until you take a planet, and perhaps larger population bases starting out.  Not sure.  Hopefully we don't have to go that far, though, but we'll see.

Thanks!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: nas1m on November 14, 2014, 05:05:38 AM
This sounds like a bucketload of really good changes :D.
I am looking forward to trying them out this week.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 06:06:21 AM
Did some brainstorming over the night:

The goal is to use your attack time increases, Chris, but to make them more defined and appropriate.  Also, to find a reason as to why attacking on your own would cause this time increase, but not on defense or with other armadas.

The concept I came up with was supplies. The idea is that attacking by yourself would cause you, as dictator, to consume time to find supplies to engage in combat. This would be a flat time fee. It would only occur on solitary offensive combat, because with armadas they already have invisible supply chains (similarly with defense). As you take more planets and fear rises, supplies become even more difficult to find. Optionally, there could be Hydra only technology to lower the fee. Further optionally, any race with neutral or above influence would reduce this fee as well.

The concept would never brought it up in Federation mode, because the player is a mercenary and thus has numerous contacts for supply.

The fee could start small, like half a month, but would stack with each level of fear. This would give me freedom to do early raids, but make it impossible to raid everyone.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 14, 2014, 08:27:14 AM
I'll step in and point out one possible problem:

The bit about "time on solar map per tactical combat turns" being increased could turn into an absolute mess on higher difficulties.

On Misery, fights can take awhile.  But not for any exploity reason: They'll take awhile (no, seriously, they can take a TON of turns)  because of the extreme amount of dodging required, combined with the much higher health of enemies, and lower damage that you do.  And the tendancy for allied ships to melt really fast.  "Harder" can be similar.

That'll warp the difficulty of the solar map stuff, when the player involved (myself being an example) didn't want the solar map difficulty to be any higher than selected.  The two ARE supposed to be seperate, after all...
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 08:48:29 AM
I'll step in and point out one possible problem:

The bit about "time on solar map per tactical combat turns" being increased could turn into an absolute mess on higher difficulties.

On Misery, fights can take awhile.  But not for any exploity reason: They'll take awhile (no, seriously, they can take a TON of turns)  because of the extreme amount of dodging required, combined with the much higher health of enemies, and lower damage that you do.  And the tendancy for allied ships to melt really fast.  "Harder" can be similar.

That'll warp the difficulty of the solar map stuff, when the player involved (myself being an example) didn't want the solar map difficulty to be any higher than selected.  The two ARE supposed to be seperate, after all...

A couple things:

I would be fine with combat having a maximium length of time in regards to the solar map. Meaning after so many turns the impact of solar map time is capped.

However, while the two modes have separate difficulties, their difficulty does intertwine. There IS a strategic impact of having a flagship that can crush everything. Just as there is a strategic impact if my ship struggles on basic fights.

But for the reasons you described, I want the additional "costs" of time for Betrayed mode to be fixed. A % based impact over the course of the battle simply is too variable.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 14, 2014, 08:51:01 AM
Hmm, all good points, both of you.

I am thinking that possibly the reaction of the AI to when you raid their fleets directly needs to be... more... in some way.  If there's still a balance problem.  Rather than making it take a cost in turns, as Misery points out, possibly it freaks out other races and causes a boom in production in betrayal mode, or something.

Right now I'm not certain if there is a problem or not, as it depends on whether you guys are still able to cheese things (I sure am not, but I never was in the first place, so I have no way of judging).

Note: the extra costs to time taken in battle have been removed as of 2.002, so that's already not really a factor.  They're back to how they were at 2.0.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 08:59:54 AM
Hmm, all good points, both of you.

I am thinking that possibly the reaction of the AI to when you raid their fleets directly needs to be... more... in some way.  If there's still a balance problem.  Rather than making it take a cost in turns, as Misery points out, possibly it freaks out other races and causes a boom in production in betrayal mode, or something.

I would am fine with invasions causing a boom in production, but not for raids. Many other races raid with little consequence and I wonder how the hydra is different if as long as it doesn't follow up with invasion.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 14, 2014, 09:02:45 AM
Hmm, all good points, both of you.

I am thinking that possibly the reaction of the AI to when you raid their fleets directly needs to be... more... in some way.  If there's still a balance problem.  Rather than making it take a cost in turns, as Misery points out, possibly it freaks out other races and causes a boom in production in betrayal mode, or something.

Right now I'm not certain if there is a problem or not, as it depends on whether you guys are still able to cheese things (I sure am not, but I never was in the first place, so I have no way of judging).

Note: the extra costs to time taken in battle have been removed as of 2.002, so that's already not really a factor.  They're back to how they were at 2.0.

I rather like Chemical_arts ideas of allies in Betrayal mode at the start to fix that.

You attack someone, their Allies goes and attack you. Amount the Ally responds depends on the damage you do and how 'unhurt' and 'safe' they are at the time. Wander in an blow up a single ship, you get a token response back.

Blow up every ship in orbit of a planet? Unless the Ally is under attack, or seriously outgunned, your going to find them send everything after you.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 09:44:53 AM
Trying again at peace:

Point 1. A really big one. Remove friendly options that never exist. It's ok to leave the tooltip for why giving space tech is not allowed, but things like research and space development just add clutter.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.002 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 10:02:34 AM
You have managed to stop my assaults!

It is as I feared would happened if I didn't pursue an immediate blitzkrieg from year 1.

The enemy are stronger, more numerous, and united, and even I cannot hold the line forever.

My map after 47s of solar time doing nothing but playing defense (I routed 3 armadas already)

(http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/52117710409625448/6775438C35DA20B35E25F499873E04878EB50E51/)


and my map if I try to defend


(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/52117710409657133/5E7B3B5B487D904D59CE677399D527DD93D82B50/)


It's as I feared. With my smaller empire, lack of technology, and united enemy against me I simply stand no chance.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.004 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 14, 2014, 10:52:32 AM
For some reason, the forum decided to stop notifying me of additions to this thread.  Sigh.

Anyhow, new version: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.004

Hopefully this will make it so that things are a bit better balanced so that you aren't getting crushed early on in, while still maintaining that you can't go on crazy assaults.  Among other things I took one of the earlier ideas from Eternaly_Lost about the AI overestimating you early on in and thus not rushing to attack you too soon.

In my quick tests, it took between 3 and 8 years for the AI to decide to kill me if I just sat there doing literally nothing.  That should be a decent window of time to accomplish some stuff that prevents the killing in the first place, hopefully. ;)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.004 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 11:23:40 AM
Interesting stuff. What's not fun?

Defending Birds and being hit with assassins before the year is over. I'm trying to play nice, but no one wants to cooperate!

EDIT: ALSO: need to stop playing with the default settings. Getting hit with assassins with no abilities...yuck
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 14, 2014, 12:05:40 PM
Understood on the assassins.  They just don't make sense for that mode in general, fun-wise or mechanics-wise.  The boost to the year 3010 was making them come too early, too.

New version: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.005
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 03:13:05 PM
Helpful option for quality of life:

In Betrayal mode: When ANYTHING attacks your property, any dispatch is interrupted so you can react to it immediately.


Another idea:

When playing pure defense, influence losses are halved. Even your enemy understands you are just trying to stay alive.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 03:33:10 PM
Playing peacefully, I still feel like I'm at a fundamental disadvantage. I need to spend time making friends, but each month I spend making friends is a month I fall behind in technology. It doesn't help I'm already behind. Similarly for planet development. I know I earn credits, but it is not nearly enough to cover the difference for both buildings and technology.

I'm still wondering how I'm supposed to get ahead. Either I put time to aid technology or my economy, but I cannot do both while the other race can. If I do diplomacy, I fall behind in both.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 14, 2014, 04:22:15 PM
You know, speaking of credits, that does give me an idea.

Is it possible that in Betryal mode, your planet could produce a small, but steady stream of credits?

Say, having your robots make something you can use.

Then add in a line of buildings that increases the income rate?

Or is that basically what the Raw Materials are suppose to do for your race? If so, I think you might want to add options to let us colonize the moons above the world you are on.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 14, 2014, 09:25:49 PM
I've tried a second game, but I find myself losing interest for the same reason as the first.

The only thing that makes the player unique is the flagship. This power intentionally is meant to decline over time. However, in Betryal mode the chips seemed lined up that this power is curtailed, and the natrual AI benefits are present from the 3010.


The player really needs either all the planetary  abilities that other races have (the ability to construct builds and research at the same time) or a unique edge to make up for this strategic disadvantage. Being Batman in the tactical side is great but finite, but if playing the strategic game the player needs to either be on the same field or have a unique mechanic. I say this from playing over a dozen grand strategy games.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 15, 2014, 10:49:02 AM
I've tried a third game, but I seem to be unable to get an edge. I don't know how I am supposed to get an advantage. By the time I get one race to neutral relations, the others are ganging up on me.

Anyone have ideas?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 15, 2014, 08:01:46 PM
Very quick question here:

Invasion mode, are you supposed to be able to take out the Obscura by simply using the PlanetCracker on them?  That one seems kinda like a "win button" in that particular mode. 
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 15, 2014, 08:08:45 PM
Very quick question here:

Invasion mode, are you supposed to be able to take out the Obscura by simply using the PlanetCracker on them?  That one seems kinda like a "win button" in that particular mode.

Personally, I don't see any reason why not. Although, are you really able to afford to PlanetCracker them before they take their first new planet?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 15, 2014, 08:27:33 PM
Very quick question here:

Invasion mode, are you supposed to be able to take out the Obscura by simply using the PlanetCracker on them?  That one seems kinda like a "win button" in that particular mode.

Personally, I don't see any reason why not. Although, are you really able to afford to PlanetCracker them before they take their first new planet?

I have no idea.  I"m actually just bringing it up after seeing something about it in the Steam forums, where someone apparantly just did that to win.  It's not an option I'd at all thought of myself.... never really had reason to use it, always forget it's there...  hard to tell if it's something of an exploit or not.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 16, 2014, 03:37:40 PM
I wouldnt consider it an exploit. If the enemy turtles for so long that someone can research a game ending tech and then deploy I think its fine
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Misery on November 16, 2014, 11:30:37 PM
I wouldnt consider it an exploit. If the enemy turtles for so long that someone can research a game ending tech and then deploy I think its fine

That's the thing though:  It's not a tech.  You simply pay the Acutians to do it, and multiple industries of theirs (like, 6 of them) have the option available.  They do not need to research it... they just need a moon, and I've never seen them NOT have one.

All YOU need is credits, which are earned by doing pretty much any action, as opposed to tech research which is an extremely specific action.   That's why I say it might be an exploit. 
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 16, 2014, 11:40:17 PM
I wouldnt consider it an exploit. If the enemy turtles for so long that someone can research a game ending tech and then deploy I think its fine

That's the thing though:  It's not a tech.  You simply pay the Acutians to do it, and multiple industries of theirs (like, 6 of them) have the option available.  They do not need to research it... they just need a moon, and I've never seen them NOT have one.

All YOU need is credits, which are earned by doing pretty much any action, as opposed to tech research which is an extremely specific action.   That's why I say it might be an exploit.

It also costs a fair bit and you need the Acutians to like you enough to do it on your say so.

If you start being able to do so on anything other then say, Easy, yes it a problem.

If it takes a very careful series of steps to do before the Obscura get to their second world (Or Obsucra getting very unluckly in the setup), then not so much.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 17, 2014, 11:38:44 AM
Agreed on the invasion mode stuff with the planetcracker.  It was something I had considered as well, but the odds of the Obscura being still on one planet by the time you are able to afford the planetcracker shouldn't be that high.  There will always be outliers, and right now I'm chalking that up to this.  If that isn't the case and it's actually regularly repeatable, then something else will need to be done for sure, yeah.

Regarding Betrayal mode... hmm.

1. Having it where you can independently research tons of stuff seems like it's troublesome to me.  Both from an interface/clarity standpoint, and a few other areas.

2. That said, having a-universally-blandly-bad diplomatic situation at the start of every game is also boring and is what leads to a lot of that "I just don't have enough options early on in" feelings, I think.  With that in mind, tons of enhancements coming next release: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#The_Pendulum_Swings_Back_A_Bit_On_Betrayal_Mode_Balance

3. I really like the idea of a passive credit gain.  I'm going to look at that, too.

4. I love the idea of the influence losses being halved when you are defending your own planets of facilities.  We're working on that, too.

5. Understood on interrupting dispatches to warn you of incoming attacks.  Added to the list also.


Thanks all!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 17, 2014, 04:15:18 PM
2.006 now out!  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.006
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.005 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 17, 2014, 05:27:56 PM
Agreed on the invasion mode stuff with the planetcracker.  It was something I had considered as well, but the odds of the Obscura being still on one planet by the time you are able to afford the planetcracker shouldn't be that high.  There will always be outliers, and right now I'm chalking that up to this.  If that isn't the case and it's actually regularly repeatable, then something else will need to be done for sure, yeah.

Regarding Betrayal mode... hmm.

1. Having it where you can independently research tons of stuff seems like it's troublesome to me.  Both from an interface/clarity standpoint, and a few other areas.

Passive credits helps with this indirectly, so still improved.

2. That said, having a-universally-blandly-bad diplomatic situation at the start of every game is also boring and is what leads to a lot of that "I just don't have enough options early on in" feelings, I think.  With that in mind, tons of enhancements coming next release: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#The_Pendulum_Swings_Back_A_Bit_On_Betrayal_Mode_Balance

A more mature diplomatic situation will help in several ways. The enemy other races will not focus the hydral for several reasons, and lets tactical exploits to happen sooner which is better for the hydra.

3. I really like the idea of a passive credit gain.  I'm going to look at that, too.

This helps with number 1, and provides more immediate incentive to increase population.
4. I love the idea of the influence losses being halved when you are defending your own planets of facilities.  We're working on that, too.

Thank you for this!

5. Understood on interrupting dispatches to warn you of incoming attacks.  Added to the list also.


Thanks all!

Will also add the random friendly race + neutral race helps open many opportunities to exploit. I'm excited.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: x4000 on November 17, 2014, 05:55:38 PM
Awesome! I thought you might like this. :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 17, 2014, 06:01:56 PM
So, I decided to start a new game to try out these changes.

And found my mindless robots have a bit of a different idea what is critical to build.

Acutian Industry Buildings don't really help me along my goal of conquering the Solar System.

Where did they even get the plans for these things?

Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 17, 2014, 06:51:16 PM
Positive relations with some races invokes talk of a federation in betryal mode.

I could be fine with a federations....if the head is hereditary, I'm in charge, and there is no possibly of a recall! But I doubt that is what is meant.


Also was sad I cannot embark in trade...even if there was nothing to my benefit but a passive relations boost I would take it!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 19, 2014, 10:51:31 AM
Positive relations with some races invokes talk of a federation in betryal mode.
I just did a quick sweep through the 298 lines in the loca file with the word "federation" and didn't see any as obviously possible-to-occur in a betrayal game.  Could you give a screenshot or save so I can see what it's saying and in what context?  Thanks :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 19, 2014, 11:06:11 AM
Will do, i think it was part of the evuk (never can spell it right) but ill give you a screenshot tonight
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 19, 2014, 11:23:45 AM
I did find one myself.

Bultist Warlords challenge to a duel on the prime on the first duel mentions that you need to defeat the prime once to get the Bultist to join the Federation.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: chemical_art on November 19, 2014, 09:05:54 PM
I just did a quick sweep through the 298 lines in the loca file with the word "federation" and didn't see any as obviously possible-to-occur in a betrayal game.  Could you give a screenshot or save so I can see what it's saying and in what context?  Thanks :)

As a follow up, it is a graphical issue as part of the race specific political deals. Clicking it results in a blank menu. It is clutter more then anything.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 10:38:32 AM
New version with some changes of note: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.007

Also, thanks for the clarification on the federation stuff, I know what you mean now on the political section.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: nas1m on November 20, 2014, 12:00:27 PM
New version with some changes of note: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.007
Thanks!
Any word from Keith on this (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16567.0.html)?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 12:17:18 PM
It is on his list for the next release.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 01:03:07 PM
I was just wondering now that you can no longer sell resources in betrayal mode is there ever going to be a way you can use your excess resources for something else like the other races can?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 01:09:33 PM
Also another quick question just wondering if you could change it to allow you to sell resources in betrayal mode only if you were playing in you are so OP or easy no higher, so if you just wanted an more easy game I am not sure if this would be hard to do just wondering so the option would be there if you wanted it but only on a low difficulty level.

Edit: or have it as a selectable option in the advanced setup to re enable it, but give you a lower score or disable achievements or something.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 20, 2014, 01:37:58 PM
I did find one myself.

Bultist Warlords challenge to a duel on the prime on the first duel mentions that you need to defeat the prime once to get the Bultist to join the Federation.
For 2.008:

* Fixed a bug where the recently added prediction/result text for duel-prime-warlord about the burlusts now being willing to consider joining the federation was not prevented on invasion or betrayal mode.

Thanks :)

That's the only place I could see the federation mentioned in connection with dueling the prime warlord.  If you find others in 2.008+ please include a screenshot and/or save.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.006 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 20, 2014, 01:41:57 PM
I just did a quick sweep through the 298 lines in the loca file with the word "federation" and didn't see any as obviously possible-to-occur in a betrayal game.  Could you give a screenshot or save so I can see what it's saying and in what context?  Thanks :)

As a follow up, it is a graphical issue as part of the race specific political deals. Clicking it results in a blank menu. It is clutter more then anything.
Ok, for 2.008:

* The "Federation" political-deal-category button on the politics window is now hidden in Betrayal and Invasion mode.

Thanks :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Eternaly_Lost on November 20, 2014, 02:00:23 PM
Also another quick question just wondering if you could change it to allow you to sell resources in betrayal mode only if you were playing in you are so OP or easy no higher, so if you just wanted an more easy game I am not sure if this would be hard to do just wondering so the option would be there if you wanted it but only on a low difficulty level.

Edit: or have it as a selectable option in the advanced setup to re enable it, but give you a lower score or disable achievements or something.

I think it might have been better to lower the credit payout rate, rather then disable selling resources completely in betrayal mode. Maybe even by making it so that you can only sell to other planets rather then the black market, and each planet will only buy what they need and upto a certain limit.

But another use for them certainly would be nice.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:07:42 PM
Also another quick question just wondering if you could change it to allow you to sell resources in betrayal mode only if you were playing in you are so OP or easy no higher, so if you just wanted an more easy game I am not sure if this would be hard to do just wondering so the option would be there if you wanted it but only on a low difficulty level.

Edit: or have it as a selectable option in the advanced setup to re enable it, but give you a lower score or disable achievements or something.

I think it might have been better to lower the credit payout rate, rather then disable selling resources completely in betrayal mode. Maybe even by making it so that you can only sell to other planets rather then the black market, and each planet will only buy what they need and upto a certain limit.

But another use for them certainly would be nice.

I agree its a shame because a few did not like it it was removed, and I mean no offense to them or anyone, but it was nice to have the option to sell them if you wanted or not all it takes is a little self control to decide if you want to sell them or not and removing it totally in my option was not a good idea but I may be alone on this.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:15:42 PM
Also another quick question just wondering if you could change it to allow you to sell resources in betrayal mode only if you were playing in you are so OP or easy no higher, so if you just wanted an more easy game I am not sure if this would be hard to do just wondering so the option would be there if you wanted it but only on a low difficulty level.

Edit: or have it as a selectable option in the advanced setup to re enable it, but give you a lower score or disable achievements or something.

I think it might have been better to lower the credit payout rate, rather then disable selling resources completely in betrayal mode. Maybe even by making it so that you can only sell to other planets rather then the black market, and each planet will only buy what they need and upto a certain limit.

But another use for them certainly would be nice.

I agree its a shame because a few did not like it it was removed, and I mean no offense to them or anyone, but it was nice to have the option to sell them if you wanted or not all it takes is a little self control to decide if you want to sell them or not and removing it totally in my option was not a good idea but I may be alone on this.

Or only let you sell so many every in game solar year I know some call it "exploitable" but have the option to do it if you want would have been nice even if it lowed your score or disabled achievements as a selectable option in the set up lobby or you can only sell resources on you are so overpowered or easy only.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 02:19:38 PM
Okay, onto Keith's todo list: "Instead of making it so that you can’t sell resources in betrayal mode, please make it so that the going rate for resources is 1000x lower than it normally would be"
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:21:05 PM
Okay, onto Keith's todo list: "Instead of making it so that you can’t sell resources in betrayal mode, please make it so that the going rate for resources is 1000x lower than it normally would be"

Sounds good to me! I think its a fare trade off.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 02:21:40 PM
Sweet. :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:33:13 PM
If I am doing my math right that would be 5cr for every 10,000 units right?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 02:34:37 PM
I would have to check, but that sounds about right.  Given the volume of different resources you gain per planet per month, it has to be pretty darn small or else you'll just roll the AIs in the late game in particular.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:36:08 PM
I would have to check, but that sounds about right.  Given the volume of different resources you gain per planet per month, it has to be pretty darn small or else you'll just roll the AIs in the late game in particular.

True I understand that, as if you had a lot of planets it could really add up as you could get thousands of one type of resources each month.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 02:37:21 PM
Yep -- seem ok?
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:39:34 PM
Yep -- seem ok?

I guess its pretty small if you wanted to go higher maybe make it so you only get 50cr or 25cr or so for every 10,000 units you sell but I guess it could still add up even at 50cr or 20cr for every 10,000 units or so.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 02:40:36 PM
Let's take it in increments, I guess -- how about we go with 200x instead of 1000x for now, and we'll see what happens. :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
Let's take it in increments, I guess -- how about we go with 200x instead of 1000x for now, and we'll see what happens. :)

True and lets see what others thank as well, thanks for your time on this issue as well :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 02:41:43 PM
You bet!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:43:24 PM
Also 25CR for every 10,000 seems good to me or like you said by 200x.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 20, 2014, 02:44:51 PM
Hopefully it is in the ballpark, at least. :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Fleet Unity on November 20, 2014, 02:48:08 PM
Hopefully it is in the ballpark, at least. :)

True and after its tested out in game to see if it balanced, only time will tell and what others think as well!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: chemical_art on November 21, 2014, 01:38:35 PM
Current changes to Armada strength are not intuitive. I engaged an armada twice with is starting with 600 power. Knocking it down to around 50% strength I withdraw. Fleet loses 75 power. Engage again, whittle to 50% strength, withdraw, fleet loses 50 power.*

The math is confusing...it would be better if explained.

*Betrayal mode
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: nas1m on November 28, 2014, 07:34:40 AM
Hopefully it is in the ballpark, at least. :)
Could you push the queued changes for 2.008 today?
I am kinda waiting for this "stop dispatching if somebody is attacked" toggle ;D...

PS:
Just in case it is trivial it might be reasonable to omit the Federationist Andor party from Betrayal and Invasion games.
Currently it has an empty menu if present in the game...

Also: I just found out that gifting raw resources to races can be exploited for any number of positive influence with races at the current exchange rate.
Just in case you want to nerf this.

And finally: I think there was a change discussed to allow selling of raw resources again in Betrayal games at a greatly discounted price.
Do you still plan to add this?

After that I am happy until the SBR beta starts ;D.

Cheers!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on November 30, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Cheers, changes coming on Monday or Tuesday, as Keith gets time for the last few things.  Thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: nas1m on December 01, 2014, 06:17:31 AM
Cheers, changes coming on Monday or Tuesday, as Keith gets time for the last few things.  Thanks for your patience!
Sounds good.
No worries, I figured out on my own that there has been thanksgiving weekend going on over in the US.
I hope you all got some quality time with your families :)!
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on December 01, 2014, 10:02:16 AM
We definitely did -- a great break for all of us.  I should have mentioned that on the forums, given the international nature of the group here (which I absolutely love).  So anyhow, yeah, it was a 3-day work week this past week.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: Misery on December 02, 2014, 07:02:07 AM
We definitely did -- a great break for all of us.  I should have mentioned that on the forums, given the international nature of the group here (which I absolutely love).  So anyhow, yeah, it was a 3-day work week this past week.

That sounds like it was probably a good bit of relief, after all of the stuff leading up to the release of the expansion, and you guys working on the new game at the same time...  Really, I dunno how you guys manage what you do without getting overly stressed out. 

As Thanksgiving goes I actually kinda slept through it myself, haha.  That'll be made up for with way too many gatherings over December though.

Here's hoping in advance that everyone who celebrates at all during this holiday month has a good time and good experience overall. 


I forgot what else I was going to say.
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on December 02, 2014, 08:53:44 AM
We all really love the work itself, which really helps.  It's the deadlines and the money that lead to stress.  Though I think we all like seeing things come together quickly, so we all tend to move quickly for no other reason than we can't wait to see the result, too.  The deadlines thing mainly comes when we are crunched for something that just really isn't feasible without lots of pain (in one form or another) because of money woes.  And the money side of things mostly comes down to either having to unfavorably shorten schedules, or lay off staff, neither of which is good.  And of course the fear of losing even more than that.

But anyhow, yes, it was quite a nice break. :)

And the release is coming out this morning!  Keith was actually done with it yesterday morning, but I've been so caught up in various business housekeeping things that I didn't have time to push it out.  Thanks for the patience. :)
Title: Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.007
Post by: x4000 on December 02, 2014, 09:40:53 AM
It's out now!  http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16616.0.html