Author Topic: TLF Version 1.900-2.007  (Read 10343 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 09:33:46 AM »
One thing that I've been mulling in general for Betrayal mode might solve this: and that's not allowing the players to deliver spacefaring tech to races at all.  That shuts off an early avenue for making friends and gaining credit, and I think it would be a very interesting twist on that mode that the Hydral isn't willing to divulge that sort of technology (and thematically that makes perfect sense, and the game would tell you why).

In the regular game mode, you get other combat prior to this, no matter what.  In Invasion mode, everyone is spacefaring from the start anyhow.  That would basically make the spacefaring-tech missions regular-mode-only for the moment.

Thoughts?


Hmm, one possible idea for the regular mode:  How about making it so that you essentially can give spacefaring to one race without doing that at all? Like, okay, you get offa the starting planet, and the ones you stole from havent the foggiest idea that you want to actually GIVE that to anyone.... so they havent sent probes out yet.  Once you've given it to someone though, the probes appear at any future ones.

It means that those that find it to be a bit much can at least get one other race spacefaring, giving them someone to work with, and giving them the option to have any particular race not have to deal with a possible large wait time, if it's a race they decide they want ASAP.  And then of course, if they think they can, they can go do a couple more. 



Betrayal mode I dont have enough experience with to advise on.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 09:58:10 AM »
One thing that I've been mulling in general for Betrayal mode might solve this: and that's not allowing the players to deliver spacefaring tech to races at all.  That shuts off an early avenue for making friends and gaining credit, and I think it would be a very interesting twist on that mode that the Hydral isn't willing to divulge that sort of technology (and thematically that makes perfect sense, and the game would tell you why).

In the regular game mode, you get other combat prior to this, no matter what.  In Invasion mode, everyone is spacefaring from the start anyhow.  That would basically make the spacefaring-tech missions regular-mode-only for the moment.

Thoughts?

In my current Betrayal mode, I already difficult enough as it is to justify aiding any race for any reason. The stakes are simply too skewed toward ATTACK! As it is, my optimal build for next game may not cause space faring anyway.

Current method to my madness for Betrayal (on hard):

1. Find spacefaring race.
2. Raid their armadas until they are no more.
3. Park my own armadas.
4. Bomb the population until there is no more.
5. Planet falls.

Rinse and repeat. It doesn't even really matter if some takes the planet later, it is a lifeless husk. The only exception is the Thorxians, but I'll kill them last. Following this policy, I wouldn't want to give space tech anyway, since it gives me more time to focus fewer opponents.

My own planet is a huge liability, and early game is my strongest, so I do scorched Earth.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 10:00:17 AM by chemical_art »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 11:07:51 AM »
Saw the new patch notes.

The whole reason I didn't help races was because it simply takes to long. Taking years to get to neutral relations simply is to much risk. But I'll let you know if I still can't brute force on Hard mode with the new changes.
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Offline x4000

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Re: TLF Version 1.900 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 11:09:43 AM »
Sounds good!  And yep, somehow I forgot to mention that 2.0 just went live. ;)
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 12:40:51 PM »
For 2.0, genocide took 56 solar months. I probably could shave off a few months if I was a perfectionist. No idea if this is the desired length.
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Offline x4000

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 01:05:32 PM »
56 solar months, or years?  There are 40 months in a year, so I'm guessing there's no possible way it was just months.  The end year was 3056, is that right?

Anyway, that's a respectable number.  Anywhere in the 30+ range is a good length of game, 90+ is going on way too long and the game starts trying to kill everyone. ;)
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 01:21:07 PM »
No, months. Year was 3002.




Last planet, about a month tops from the final wipe.

Pic was for hard/hard.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 01:30:13 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline x4000

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2014, 01:35:07 PM »
Well... that's certainly... different.  Apparently you've found a much more effective strategy than others.  Hmmm, will look at this.
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Offline x4000

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2014, 01:40:42 PM »
Actually, we may as well chat about things here.  The basic things that I see as being potential issues are:

1. The other alien races not getting pissed enough at you and attacking you for your deeds.
2. The other aliens not being able to keep up with you manufacturing-wise.  Possibly player manufacturing or resource income levels need a nerf, or the costs of armada improvements need to be increased.
3. The player being able to single-handedly wipe out huge swathes of the enemy armadas with their own flagship.  That's not really something that is intended in general.

One idea that would address both 2 and 3 to some extent would be to make it so that the AI produces armadas faster.  That could get into frustrating stalemates, though.

Another approach would be to increase the cost of player armada upgrades, and to increase the baseline time taken for players doing frontal assaults on enemy planets with their own flagships.

Possibly also to add a stiff influence hit every time you capture a planet, too.

You and the AI are basically playing two different games in most senses, and right now the player economy and abilities are clearly far outclassing the AI ones.  All of a sudden.

Thoughts on the above options?
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Offline x4000

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 01:44:34 PM »
Oh, another option is to make it so that the AI races all get some sort of "fear boost" to their space power every time you take a planet.  So losing and retaking a planet is a bigger deal, and in general the more planets you take, the more risky direct combat on your part becomes.  You'd still be able to make what are essentially super-armadas compared to what the AI has, as now, but that would solve a lot of the other problems.  That plus an influence hit on planet capture might be all that is needed, not sure.  Possibly also a temporary "fear-based manufacturing boost" for the other AIs whenever you take a planet, too.

Basically making it so that they react strongly to you taking a planet, and thus everybody suddenly reinforces a bunch.  If you have too much back and forth with planets, that becomes a huge liability fast, and you wind up spiraling into a loss.  If you rush through too many planets really fast, they wind up outclassing you militarily AND hating you as a group, so you need to step back and work on making them fight one another some, and also work on your own techs.

That sort of flow is more how I'd been playing, and more the idea in general.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2014, 02:08:48 PM »
Hmm, we can do the chat here. I'll have to take a step back though explain the "strategic situation" I found myself with though with Betrayal mode in general first.

Let us consider, relative to the player and AI in terms of relative assets.

Player assets:

A very very strong single ship that, if not destroyed, escapes from combat with no lost in resources aside from time.
The ability to more adeptly pursue research...if that is the only thing needed.
A win at all costs attitude, casualties are meaningless if you win. The goal is to not build a healthy happy empire. The goal is to destroy everything.

AI assets:
The ability perform simultaneous actions at once, such as constructing building and researching techs.
Much deeper access to resources to replace armada losses (it seems)
Vastly greater populations and thus the ability to replace them
The ability to band together and cooperate in  a much greater fashion.
Aside from the Hydral, neutral to everyone.
AI learns superweapons and other unique techs.

In summary, the tactical situation is that the hydral starts out with (single flagship) tactical advantage, but the AI will be able to quickly  overwhelm the player diplomatically, economically, and technologically.

The solution, then, is to exterminate them as fast as possible.

So for your points.

It is not 1 or 2. Actually, because of how extreme 1 and 2 are, 3 becomes the tactic of choice. Oh no that's the right word. It is THE tactic, period. Wipe out the armadas ASAP. Keep them dead. It is the only option. If they get to your world, your paltry armadas don't stand a chance. If they get on the ground, your puny population won't stand a chance.

As to your other ideas:

Regarding player armadas. They were troop transports, period. They were no use aside from this. My armadas were already pathetically weak against the enemy. The Boarines I had left alone for 1.5 years, and they got 780ish armada power. The peak of my armada power was like 400.  These upgrades were funded from previous conquests, they would be weaker if I was peaceful. Increasing the player armadas cost will put even more pressure on the player flagship.

Similarly, increase the enemy armada construction speed (and the resources to fund this) would only put me further behind, further increasing the pressure for the flagship to perform.

As far as influence, it already has tanked. From the very start (day 1) , every race who went space faring started attacking me. Further hits are meaningless. It is because they start so low that I felt no lose in murdering everyone.

Increasing baseline time for player flagship attacks is the only thing that would help so far...but that would increase the gaps that could cause the player planet to fall. For example, at the end of my game I just had the Peltians. I simply couldn't kill them fast enough so I finally broke-down and research some nanotubes. During that 6 month period, my 3 fleets of 400 power had dropped to 200 power because a single armada was spawned to defend it while I was gone.

So...to bring this all back around.

My single flagship smashed all the other armadas then I bombed the planet to dust. It was the only logical choice. The other empires will outpace me quickly in every-way, and they all want me dead from day 1. My single flagship would never be as relatively strong then from day 1, so I exploited it.

If you nerf the flagship, you must make peace a reasonable strategic choice, otherwise I will use the ship anyway for it the only real player advantage.

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Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2014, 03:11:24 PM »
I don't think the Flagship needs to be nerfed.

Rather, I think in Betrayal Mode, like Invasion mode, all races should start in space, and given them some sort of significant starting armada. Make it enough that if you send your defenders away, everyone else would jump on you. Maybe a temporary 'modification
 of the strength as far as the AIs see it until you conquer your first world that makes them think it much stronger then it is. So, well you only have 3 Amarda to start, they think it something more like 100, so long as all three are still in orbit of your home world. As soon as they get sent away, the AI realizes that they were not made up of copies of your Flagship like they first though, and rather are quite weak.

So they all shift their vaules back down to what they all were to start.

Even thematically would fit in nice. You are a Hydra, the last member of the race that ruled the Solar System. They expect you to have ships powerful enough to do that, until they can learn that you do not.

This makes it so you need to get them, distracted or busy somehow. Rather then a simple just stab everyone in the face. And it also makes it so that once you take a world, you better be ready to fight off the counter attack.




Offline nas1m

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2014, 03:28:43 PM »
I am also against nerfing the player flagship. Being an evil Batman is a big part of the fun for me...
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Offline x4000

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2014, 03:38:50 PM »
I'm not really keen on nerfing things, either.  I prefer to make it exciting on both sides, rather than having it feel like the player is artificially handicapped.

To that end, here are the changes (which are now out): http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-2.0_Release_Notes#Version_2.001

Basic summary of it:

1. I did the various things that I was originally contemplating, because I believe they are likely to be important for mid-game balance and in particular to keep runaway early victories from being possible.

2. That said, I buffed the heck out of the players' ability to have and upgrade and use armadas.  It's not that you can't be an awesome batman -- you still can -- but now your armadas are actually thrillingly powerful and it's something where you can definitely be the most powerful race in the solar system... but you still are not more powerful than EVERYBODY.  So you either have time to make friends, now, or else consolidate power more and use your batman powers in addition to that.

3. You also get more armadas from the start (and, realistically, in general), which makes a big difference to your ability to both defend planets and attack planets at the same time.

Thoughts will be welcome.  I find it very hard to replicate your strategy, chemical_art, but that was true when I tried it even prior to this patch.  So I'll be curious to see what you make of it.

The main thing for me is that I'm actually having a lot more fun in this mode from the start, particularly with armadas.  Before it really took a long period of building before I "got to the good part."  Now it starts in the good part, which is fun. :)
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: TLF Version 1.900-2.000 (Tutorial And Story Touches)
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2014, 03:48:25 PM »

Thoughts will be welcome.  I find it very hard to replicate your strategy, chemical_art, but that was true when I tried it even prior to this patch.  So I'll be curious to see what you make of it.

The main thing for me is that I'm actually having a lot more fun in this mode from the start, particularly with armadas.  Before it really took a long period of building before I "got to the good part."  Now it starts in the good part, which is fun. :)

Changes look good. However the most key is a note on diplomacy.

In practice, from day 1, the enemy regularly attacked me. So any penalties to diplomacy are simply meaningless. Without making it so the other races don't at the start attack me, I'm going to attack them anyway. With these changes I'll make it a point rather then inclination to destroy the biggest threats first rather then the weakest. But until a measure is put that makes it so that I both get unique benefits for being friendly and an actual penalty for low relations, the number between -100 and -1000 in practice doesn't seem to matter.

Other notes:

I hope those fear bonuses stack. My last game was shorter then 80 months.   >D

I'll rev up those nukes soon though and let you know how far I can go before the world solar system implodes.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 03:52:22 PM by chemical_art »
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