Author Topic: Thoraxians got sort-of broken by latest patch (Observer mode observations)  (Read 4547 times)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Thoraxians, as individuals, are much larger and much more dangerous than the other races.  So their population density and growth and such are much lower.

The problem is that growth is apparently everything in this game. Lower pop, means lower production and research. Or doesn't it? The game doesn't say. But It's what I would assume. And if you have lower pop, all population % effects have that much less effect too. So for Thoraxians, all buildings with such effects should be vastly cheaper. To put that in perspective, 4% more something for 1600 people is far better than 4% something for 23 people

Basically, the current game balance does not take lower and higher starting pop into account. Which is why Thoraxians (at least since 1.000) were never any threat. And yes, like Wingflier I really tried to make them strong, and failed.....

But I do not know what specifically makes them weak. There many things hidden in this game. Like how pop affects research and production. And whether there are differences between races or not (certainly not for building costs which is what I checked)

I blame the ability for non-spacefaring races to discover tech. Particularly Skylaxian, even when they become spacefaring in mid-game they come out as already way too strong. Meanwhile Burlusts and Thoraxian don't really grow in tech, infrastructure or armada even if they become spacefaring very early on.

I think one solution is to provide exclusive techs for Burlusts and Thoraxian focusing on benefit early game that feels right for their race: the brutality and warlike nature of Burlusts or the insectoid, parasitic nature of the Thoraxian. Instead of laser pistol and vibroblades, they could use heavy shotgun or corrosive acid spit. They also don't need Universities to develop such things.

Exclusive techs and buildings unique to weak races (Burlusts/Thoraxians) would be 1 solution, maybe. Actually a good idea.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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The problem is that growth is apparently everything in this game. Lower pop, means lower production and research. Or doesn't it? The game doesn't say. But It's what I would assume.
I'm in the construction-rate math right now (figuring out why it's trying to build some things it shouldn't be able to build) and I while I see a lot about tech bonuses, building bonuses, outpost bonuses, compatibility bonuses, and "how much budget did we earmark for this, anyway?" sorts of things, I don't see anything about population. 

I don't know about research, but I don't think it's particularly population-bound there either.  I think the general idea is that either you've got hundreds of millions (or billions) people and labor is not the constraining factor (compared to available equipment, efficiency of equipment, availability of inventive individuals, etc) and adding another billion doesn't increase said capacity, or you've only got a few million and either the game has to nerf your capacity greatly (thus consigning you to more-or-less permanent disadvantage) or just let you build/research like the other guys.

Personally I think it would be better to factor in population to some degree (never was too fond of GalCiv2's approach where population basically only produced money, not industry or whatever, iirc) but as you're pointing out here that would only hammer the Thoraxians harder.  It would need to be highly scaled by the natural growth rate of said race, etc.


Anyway, I don't think the current relationship between pop and industry/research is what's hurting the Thoraxians here.  If anything it's helping them.
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Offline GC13

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Cute, but wrong.
You forgot your "Well isn't that" at the start, and the "it's" right before "wrong".
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Cute, but wrong.
You forgot your "Well isn't that" at the start, and the "it's" right before "wrong".
I've used the phrase so many times that it has been assimilated and restructured.

Besides, I can't communicate the original speaker's tone of voice via text :)
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Offline GC13

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I've used the phrase so many times that it has been assimilated and restructured.

Besides, I can't communicate the original speaker's tone of voice via text :)
Fair enough.  8)
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline eRe4s3r

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The problem is that growth is apparently everything in this game. Lower pop, means lower production and research. Or doesn't it? The game doesn't say. But It's what I would assume.
I'm in the construction-rate math right now (figuring out why it's trying to build some things it shouldn't be able to build) and I while I see a lot about tech bonuses, building bonuses, outpost bonuses, compatibility bonuses, and "how much budget did we earmark for this, anyway?" sorts of things, I don't see anything about population. 

I don't know about research, but I don't think it's particularly population-bound there either.  I think the general idea is that either you've got hundreds of millions (or billions) people and labor is not the constraining factor (compared to available equipment, efficiency of equipment, availability of inventive individuals, etc) and adding another billion doesn't increase said capacity, or you've only got a few million and either the game has to nerf your capacity greatly (thus consigning you to more-or-less permanent disadvantage) or just let you build/research like the other guys.

Personally I think it would be better to factor in population to some degree (never was too fond of GalCiv2's approach where population basically only produced money, not industry or whatever, iirc) but as you're pointing out here that would only hammer the Thoraxians harder.  It would need to be highly scaled by the natural growth rate of said race, etc.


Anyway, I don't think the current relationship between pop and industry/research is what's hurting the Thoraxians here.  If anything it's helping them.

Well as you say, the issue is quite complicated, certainly it is not just fixed by reverting the birth-rate limiter to a more sane value. Although that hurt them badly, it is not the only thing hurting them.

the current patch notes revert the growth = 0 thing back, but the Thoraxians had massive problems even before that change. Something about their build up in the first 3-5 years of gameplay turns them into target dummies, maybe aggressive mood at start, or raids in particular, should not start right from the beginning. And maybe raids should get the Thoraxians technology in return instead. And only start once they are properly built up to deal with the response....

If you have time for it, it would be really nice if you could look what hampers Thoraxians so hard. I have honestly no idea what it could be. It must be a multitude of things interacting because I can spot nothing in observer mode that would explain the "near instant death" of thoraxians. And even helping them BEFORE patch 1.002 resulted in a very weak empire at *best* and not always was it possible to prevent their death even with full player help.

It may seem odd I am so focused on this issue, but it is one of these things that make the game a lot less challenging in the long run as it makes everything so much more predictable.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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maybe aggressive mood at start, or raids in particular, should not start right from the beginning.
There's already a minimum time after becoming spacefaring during which a race cannot start a war.  Possibly that should be longer but at some point that leads to the races are just sort of mysteriously sitting there.


Quote
If you have time for it, it would be really nice if you could look what hampers Thoraxians so hard.
I'd like to know too, but I have very little time to work on the game that isn't going towards whatever's on the top of the list of things Chris has asked me to do for TLF.  If I have more time for the game, that's where it goes.

Anyway, if you bug Chris about it, maybe he'll think it's worth making a priority :)
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Offline GC13

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Perhaps a new feature could be added that any species could build in the asteroid belt: mining outpost. With this, in addition to each species trying to build and hold at least a few outposts in orbit, hopefully wars could be a bit more endemic and less "I'm going to destroy you now."
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline Draco18s

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Also make stations change sides more often rather than just blowing up.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Also make stations change sides more often rather than just blowing up.
More often?

The only time they don't blow up on ownership change is when you capture them (which never blows them up, though Military outposts don't let you use the Capture action).  But if a race takes one the rule is that they blow up 100% of the time.

Changing that to some non-100% chance is a suggestion worth making in mantis :)
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Filed it on Mantis now

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=14415

Please bring suggestions there, and maybe further findings. I do not know what causes the issue. ;p Burlusts are affected too, but I only specifically tested for Thoraxians (sorry, but they were the ones I noticed it most) and since I am an Ender Game fan, I do rather enjoy leading Hive races to victory (alas, i see no way currently to do that with Thoraxians)
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