Author Topic: Player actions need more noticable effect overall  (Read 14032 times)

Offline lifehole

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2014, 02:00:08 pm »
Sure, mick, if you want. I haven't bothered to create mantis tickets since I've been getting enough feedback from the dev here, but I'm sure they probably check mantis just as much if not more, so go ahead.

Offline I-KP

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2014, 02:09:02 pm »
Have any mantis issues been created from the discussion in this thread? I've considered it, but I don't feel comfortable compiling a "consensus" into a ticket (because it feels like I'm speaking for other people). Would it make sense to kinda work out a summary of the of the complaints within the thread itself and post it once enough people have signed off on it?

Although maybe it's really just as simple as "Have the game show how the numbers work, especially in the case of RCI."

It's much easier to talk about the balance of various player activities once that is done first.
I'm not all that familiar with what Mantis is (open source bug tracking tools?) but if that's they way changes are influenced around here then I'm all for it.

I can summarize my view expressed in this thread quite simply, in non-specific terms:-

All numbers need to be transparent. 

In more specific terms, for two examples:-

- I need to know what modifiers are presently influencing a number and in some cases what modifiers /used/ to be influencing it.  (What factors are currently influencing a planet's Economic RCI number and why did said Economy mysteriously improve by 500% over the last four years?) 
- I need to understand the 'worth' of a number and not just its value, e.g., '+50' means nothing to me but '+50%' means everything.  (Does 1,000,000 Science power mean that the Skylaxians are going to be researching tech 250,000 times faster than the Thoraxians on 4?)
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Offline Misery

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2014, 07:38:07 pm »
Have any mantis issues been created from the discussion in this thread? I've considered it, but I don't feel comfortable compiling a "consensus" into a ticket (because it feels like I'm speaking for other people). Would it make sense to kinda work out a summary of the of the complaints within the thread itself and post it once enough people have signed off on it?

Although maybe it's really just as simple as "Have the game show how the numbers work, especially in the case of RCI."

It's much easier to talk about the balance of various player activities once that is done first.


http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=14751   That's the original Mantis ticket for this.

I know the devs dont have much time to be reading the forums lately, so I dunno that they've seen this actual topic here.  Being that this topic has alot of good ideas/thoughts in it related to this though it wouldnt hurt to attach them to the ticket somehow so they're apparent.

Offline lifehole

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2014, 08:08:23 pm »
Whaddya talkin' bout they don't have time to read the forums? x4000 has been doing an amazing job with that, imo.

Offline Misery

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2014, 08:33:45 pm »
Whaddya talkin' bout they don't have time to read the forums? x4000 has been doing an amazing job with that, imo.

He's stated it on numerous occaisions, actually.  Go look up in the "stickied" section for this forum, there's a "PLEASE SUBMIT FEEDBACK TO MANTIS" topic up there, which explains a bit.

PARTICULARLY after release, there's just too much chaos both here and on the Steam forums for the game in question... and the devs are already so busy!  And the thing with forum topics is that some of each topic is direct feedback info, but then there may be a pile of posts that are merely discussions about that, which are often not helpful in a direct way.

Mantis though isnt used for discussions, and is an easy way for them to keep track of feedback and bug reports, so it's definitely the preferred way of doing it.   And it's easy to forget this, too, which I suppose is why he made that topic about it.  Heck, I tend to forget Mantis is there myself half the time during testing, despite just how much testing I've done overall for their games.

Overall it's just alot easier on them for us to try to put direct feedback on Mantis as much as possible instead of just here, where it may be missed.

And heck, this is a BIG game for them.  In my opinion there's been enough chaos as it is just after their last couple of releases... but this one goes waaaaaaayyyyyyyy beyond that.  Normally I like to try to help out over on the Steam forums by constantly answering questions and such right after a release, since I tend to have the free time that most people dont, but THIS one.... I gave up.  There's just too much over there.  Way too much.

I dunno how they're even able to keep up with Mantis as it is.  As always it's impressive that they manage to do all of this stuff.

Offline Misery

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2014, 07:09:59 am »
Ok, a bit of an update to this:

The more I mess with the game, the more I'm convinced that this is a really major issue. Alot of getting federations started seems to be luck, based on what the simulation and RNG does. Typically, if a given race has started doing something, or they have some event going that's screwing with the RCI, or whatever, the effects I can have on those things, regardless of method, are so weak/slow that they simply do nothing.

I've restarted the game multiple times, experimenting as I go, and it takes very little time before I reach a point where I've run out of strategic options that will actually DO something, making "wait and see" the only true effective option. Needless to say, this isnt very interesting.

For example, in my current game I decided to work on getting the Evucks and Acutians going into a Federation. At the start I had a few options.... start a trade route, stuff like that. Very quickly, the Evuck planetary situation went bonkers and just started falling apart. There is *nothing* I can do about this. Nowhere in the game is there any action I could take that could make even the slightest dent in the plummeting RCI values, among other things. It doesnt help that they've got a 200-month long negative event going on that I can also do nothing about.

The Acutians are a whole other issue; as they and the Skylaxians do sometimes, they are going out of control with sheer power... and again, I cant do anything to halt them. I have enough influence that I could take hostile actions to slow them down without making them loathe me, but the actions I can take are all pretty weak and will only very briefly slow them down. They simply advance WAY faster than I could do damage. Even with weaker races, this is typically the case.

Political actions tend to be too weak, having minor effects over time. Dispatches tend to be too slow, requiring absurd amounts of time before they really do much; only research and sometimes construction are worth doing. All of the other dispatches seem pretty useless most of the time.   And of course with the political stuff, I cant even do that if I dont have the influence... and if there are no techs to give, and no pirate bases to crush, getting influence is very slow, which further weakens the effectiveness of most political actions, particularly if I've needed to do anything hostile at all, or anything that lowered influence, since those tend to have very heavy penalties.  The super-slow influence gain can make political options worthless, as by the time you can use them, it's much too late for them to be of much help.

And that's just in my current game. Every other game I've started didn't take long at all before I hit this point.  One way or another, the player's options/actions need to DO something more than they currently are.  Situations spiral out of control quickly, but unlike with combat, the player's actions do not grow stronger or more effective as the game progresses.  Only research/building is an exception, but these are nowhere near effective enough simply by themselves, and it's hard to target these at any specific situation to work on it.  That being said, buildings/research ARE actively effective once done.... the numbers on these seem closer to the proper balance overall. Much much closer.  I think this fact is important.  To me it's one of the reasons why the tech/building mechanics are so good:  Because when used, they feel like they have real IMPACT, that you're accomplishing something with them.   But much more is needed than just these.  If other options were brought up to be more in line with these, it'd help ALOT.  THough, of course, some techs/buildings are REALLY powerful, and it's not like political/dispatches all need to be crazy strong, but still, being closer to that type of balance would be very good.


Currently I'm holding off on playing further until something changes... with my lack of patience I very quickly lose interest in any strategy title if a point when there's either too few options or too much "stand around and wait" occurs, and this is currently doing both at once very heavily.  The balance is just too messed up.  Combat is still very interesting, but it's of little use on the solar map itself, aside from dealing with outposts.   I can understand that overpowering things could be a definite issue... it would shorten the playtime of each game, and for a game like this, that'd rather suck.   But it isnt much fun if a good chunk of that playtime is waiting/hoping for something to happen that gives you an opportunity to really DO something.


Of course, if anyone has some overall tips, or thoughts on what I may be doing wrong, by all means, lemme know.  But so much experimenting so far always leads to this same result, even with me trying wildly different tactics each time.  And of course, the core reason I brought this up in the first place remains true, which is that new players seem to be still getting this same impression.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 07:20:04 am by Misery »

Offline lifehole

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2014, 07:47:51 am »
Ok, a bit of an update to this:

The more I mess with the game, the more I'm convinced that this is a really major issue. Alot of getting federations started seems to be luck, based on what the simulation and RNG does. Typically, if a given race has started doing something, or they have some event going that's screwing with the RCI, or whatever, the effects I can have on those things, regardless of method, are so weak/slow that they simply do nothing.

I've restarted the game multiple times, experimenting as I go, and it takes very little time before I reach a point where I've run out of strategic options that will actually DO something, making "wait and see" the only true effective option. Needless to say, this isnt very interesting.

For example, in my current game I decided to work on getting the Evucks and Acutians going into a Federation. At the start I had a few options.... start a trade route, stuff like that. Very quickly, the Evuck planetary situation went bonkers and just started falling apart. There is *nothing* I can do about this. Nowhere in the game is there any action I could take that could make even the slightest dent in the plummeting RCI values, among other things. It doesnt help that they've got a 200-month long negative event going on that I can also do nothing about.

The Acutians are a whole other issue; as they and the Skylaxians do sometimes, they are going out of control with sheer power... and again, I cant do anything to halt them. I have enough influence that I could take hostile actions to slow them down without making them loathe me, but the actions I can take are all pretty weak and will only very briefly slow them down. They simply advance WAY faster than I could do damage. Even with weaker races, this is typically the case.

Political actions tend to be too weak, having minor effects over time. Dispatches tend to be too slow, requiring absurd amounts of time before they really do much; only research and sometimes construction are worth doing. All of the other dispatches seem pretty useless most of the time.   And of course with the political stuff, I cant even do that if I dont have the influence... and if there are no techs to give, and no pirate bases to crush, getting influence is very slow, which further weakens the effectiveness of most political actions, particularly if I've needed to do anything hostile at all, or anything that lowered influence, since those tend to have very heavy penalties.  The super-slow influence gain can make political options worthless, as by the time you can use them, it's much too late for them to be of much help.

And that's just in my current game. Every other game I've started didn't take long at all before I hit this point.  One way or another, the player's options/actions need to DO something more than they currently are.  Situations spiral out of control quickly, but unlike with combat, the player's actions do not grow stronger or more effective as the game progresses.  Only research/building is an exception, but these are nowhere near effective enough simply by themselves, and it's hard to target these at any specific situation to work on it.  That being said, buildings/research ARE actively effective once done.... the numbers on these seem closer to the proper balance overall. Much much closer.  I think this fact is important.  To me it's one of the reasons why the tech/building mechanics are so good:  Because when used, they feel like they have real IMPACT, that you're accomplishing something with them.   But much more is needed than just these.  If other options were brought up to be more in line with these, it'd help ALOT.  THough, of course, some techs/buildings are REALLY powerful, and it's not like political/dispatches all need to be crazy strong, but still, being closer to that type of balance would be very good.


Currently I'm holding off on playing further until something changes... with my lack of patience I very quickly lose interest in any strategy title if a point when there's either too few options or too much "stand around and wait" occurs, and this is currently doing both at once very heavily.  The balance is just too messed up.  Combat is still very interesting, but it's of little use on the solar map itself, aside from dealing with outposts.   I can understand that overpowering things could be a definite issue... it would shorten the playtime of each game, and for a game like this, that'd rather suck.   But it isnt much fun if a good chunk of that playtime is waiting/hoping for something to happen that gives you an opportunity to really DO something.


Of course, if anyone has some overall tips, or thoughts on what I may be doing wrong, by all means, lemme know.  But so much experimenting so far always leads to this same result, even with me trying wildly different tactics each time.  And of course, the core reason I brought this up in the first place remains true, which is that new players seem to be still getting this same impression.

No, no, that about sums it up. I would really just copy+paste this entire post into mantis if it was appropriate, but it's too long/isn't appropriate (maybe it is iunno.) I hope the devs read this, because it really is spot with the issues it raises. The only routes that really feel like they do anything, are, as said, research/construction. And even construction feels very weak.

There's not much more to say than what misery already said. I agree with everything in this post, and it is also the reason I'm not currently playing. Maybe start a mantis tag or something, but if there's something else I want the devs to hear it's miserys post here.  By "something else" I mean they've already done a ton of troubleshooting/bugfixing on my "inspiration" as the patch notes say, which is amazing, and while I don't think I even deserve to be listed as that, it's nice of them. They've been doing a great job, and I think this is the next route to go down imo.

Offline Mick

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2014, 08:00:38 am »
Misery's post sums up why I have lost interest in this game. I find it unfortunate, because I do love concept, the races, the setting, and many of the ideas, but... well ... what Misery said.

I still follow the updates waiting until something is done to address these concerns. I understand such changes won't happen overnight though, as there are still a lot of bug and balance issues to sort through.

Offline Misery

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2014, 08:14:19 am »
Yep, I already stuck all of that into the Mantis ticket for it as a comment.   Again, feel free to leave your own comments there as well.

The good thing overall about this whole issue is that I dont think it'd be all that hard to fix.  It's not the sort of balance issue that's like "Well, THIS thing over here is too strong, this other one is very weak, this bit over here costs too much, this option explodes when you use it".   It's more of a general theme, with alot of things simply being balanced too low.   An overall increase is probably all that's needed.  Though, nerfing the Skylaxians and Acutians a bit might help also, but that's a seperate issue.

Also, the RCI values, fixing those up would help alot.  It'd make more sense to me if, say, 100/-100 were ultra good and ultra bad, respectively, rather than having these values go into the thousands.  Particularly considering the rate at which dispatches affect these.  The various buildings that affect RCI also seem balanced around a 100 or maybe 200 range sort of setup.

Offline lifehole

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2014, 08:53:26 am »
Now that I think about it, if you increased the effectiveness of the players actions, it would make the game shorter, because all they devs did to make it longer is decrease the effects of the players actions.

They need to find a way to increase the length of the game to 30-50 years, without simply turning that game into sit-and-wait or watch-and-grind game.

Offline Mick

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2014, 08:56:21 am »
I don't really have an issue with actions having a long term ROI. I enjoy CK2 (Crusader Kings 2), where building improvements sometimes don't pay for themselves until 50-100 years later, and that's perfectly fine. The difference is I can understand the inputs and outputs as they are presented to me. If a castle town improvement in CK2 had a tooltip like "Gives you more tax income", I would be extremely frustrated because I'd be getting the impression that it was doing NOTHING.

Offline lifehole

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2014, 09:21:45 am »
I don't really have an issue with actions having a long term ROI. I enjoy CK2 (Crusader Kings 2), where building improvements sometimes don't pay for themselves until 50-100 years later, and that's perfectly fine. The difference is I can understand the inputs and outputs as they are presented to me. If a castle town improvement in CK2 had a tooltip like "Gives you more tax income", I would be extremely frustrated because I'd be getting the impression that it was doing NOTHING.

Yeah, there REALLY needs to be more transparency on the games effects. I also play paradox grand strategy games, and they're somewhat similar in the fact they both this game and those games have complex depth/interactions. The problem is that even though the game claims to be open to both depthful experts and casual players it doesn't give any exacts on what is happening, so both casual players and experts suffer.

Offline I-KP

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2014, 09:32:27 am »
I’ve only played this game for about 20 hours so I’m still very much a n00b in grand strategy career terms with TLF, but I do now find myself in a very similar position to Misery & Co. 

By far my biggest frustration with TLF is the opacity of not just my own actions but also the actions of the Races themselves, and for the actions that I do have some seemingly useful numbers for they appear to be absurdly ineffectual.  I too am a child of the Paradox machine – Vicky, CK, EU, HoI etc – so I am very much aware of the concept of the long term investment but by the time any of the long term actions conclude in a typical game of TLF the impact of those actions amounts to almost nothing, largely because several crazy things have exploded out of control^Hinfluence, concluded, and then exploded out of all control^Hinfluence again all within the timeframe of one such long term action.  I end up resigning myself to watching a wild, unpredictable and often illogical simulation playing out on my screen feeling rather powerless to do anything about any of it.  (In fact, I usually end up starting a game of Faster Than Light instead!)

I want to trust the simulation but, you see, I can’t because I frequently see mad things like 1,000,000 Science power drop by ~250,000 points at the loss of one Outpost when earlier on in the game that same single Outpost only added 25 to that Race’s Science output.  I know why this happens, mathematically, but thematically and logically stuff like this makes no sense at all.  Grand strategy games rely on the player buying into the plausibility of the events that are likely to happen but TLF’s parade of one bonkers event compounding the next does little to help the player immerse themselves into the simulation.

I am falling out of love with TLF.  I’m very much in love with the concept but the game mechanics themselves are leaving me increasingly cold.  This makes me a rather sad Peltian.  /QvQ\  <-- Look at my sad Peltian eyes.

I don’t think I’ll be firing the game up again until I read a patch note that states that all of the numbers in the game now have meaning instead of just value, i.e., “+50 Economy” means absolutely nothing to me but “+0.05% Economy / month” means everything, and that every action that a Race takes, no matter how bonkers (and I see an awful lot of bonkers actions), has an explainable and accessible audit trail. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 09:34:53 am by I-KP »
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Offline lifehole

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2014, 09:50:42 am »
I’ve only played this game for about 20 hours so I’m still very much a n00b in grand strategy career terms with TLF, but I do now find myself in a very similar position to Misery & Co. 

By far my biggest frustration with TLF is the opacity of not just my own actions but also the actions of the Races themselves, and for the actions that I do have some seemingly useful numbers for they appear to be absurdly ineffectual.  I too am a child of the Paradox machine – Vicky, CK, EU, HoI etc – so I am very much aware of the concept of the long term investment but by the time any of the long term actions conclude in a typical game of TLF the impact of those actions amounts to almost nothing, largely because several crazy things have exploded out of control^Hinfluence, concluded, and then exploded out of all control^Hinfluence again all within the timeframe of one such long term action.  I end up resigning myself to watching a wild, unpredictable and often illogical simulation playing out on my screen feeling rather powerless to do anything about any of it.  (In fact, I usually end up starting a game of Faster Than Light instead!)

I want to trust the simulation but, you see, I can’t because I frequently see mad things like 1,000,000 Science power drop by ~250,000 points at the loss of one Outpost when earlier on in the game that same single Outpost only added 25 to that Race’s Science output.  I know why this happens, mathematically, but thematically and logically stuff like this makes no sense at all.  Grand strategy games rely on the player buying into the plausibility of the events that are likely to happen but TLF’s parade of one bonkers event compounding the next does little to help the player immerse themselves into the simulation.

I am falling out of love with TLF.  I’m very much in love with the concept but the game mechanics themselves are leaving me increasingly cold.  This makes me a rather sad Peltian.  /QvQ\  <-- Look at my sad Peltian eyes.

I don’t think I’ll be firing the game up again until I read a patch note that states that all of the numbers in the game now have meaning instead of just value, i.e., “+50 Economy” means absolutely nothing to me but “+0.05% Economy / month” means everything, and that every action that a Race takes, no matter how bonkers (and I see an awful lot of bonkers actions), has an explainable and accessible audit trail.

Yep. Pretty much this. You guys are saying it much better than I could ever put it, but I kinda agree with everything here. Maybe only paradox is capable of performing the grand strategy formula we're asking for. I don't know. I just hope (and I have not lost any hope at all, infact if anything the past week has had me gain hope) that they will fix these problems. We need plausibility in the simulation, and clear descriptions on the interactions of both the player, and the AI.

It's a wish I hope to see fufilled by this game, but I don't know if this game will ever reach that point if arcen keeps up the rate of game releases it has now.

Offline casualsax

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Re: Player actions need more noticable effect overall
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2014, 09:59:31 am »
There is another balance option, besides buffing all of the player actions.  And that is toning down the wild swings the game takes.  If instead of a race declaring war on a neutral race and wiping them out in a solar month or two, if the escalation and then eventual war was more gradual, it would give us more time to alter the universe.

 

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