Author Topic: New version .811 now out! (Improved TBS Controls, Solar Map Balance, etc)  (Read 2067 times)

Offline Teal_Blue

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If the number of opponents in a mission (or perhaps a percentage of missions? say 70 percent of them?) were reduced, to say, less than half a dozen or less and the mission length (of most missions) was reduced to a single month (and the remaining missions reduced to two or three months for the largest missions), then perhaps the combats would be quicker and less drawn out, and the solar map progress would be much less, and perhaps easier to deal with? (and we wouldn't have to have a 'leave dispatch mission' button at all?)

With everything that is happening on the solar map, it would be nice to interact with it,
-Teal

« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 04:36:18 AM by Teal_Blue »

Offline Cinth

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Yeah, the idea is about finding a good point to break through.... but that just doesnt work when the game starts you directly in front of a gravity turret while you get simultaneously sniped and bombarded with missiles (which do *alot* of damage at this difficulty).  The proper idea would be that you approach these formations from a distance, not start out within the group, which doesnt actually make any sense from a logical standpoint.  In addition, it's rarely JUST the turrets.  Chances are there's flagships nearby blasting at you and creating ships as well.
Buzzed and posting  8)
Take it with a grain of salt

I kinda have a direction of thought with this, bear with.  In absence of enemy ships, the turret constellation needs at least one angle you can approach from.  From that angle you can draw out the enemy flagships.  It gives you an area to start from (at least one).  Aside from the spawning issue (need to keep that separate here since that should be easy to fix), making sure there are options for cracking the defense is the thing.  It is the angle of attack of a weapon to bust a hole in the defenses.  When looking at the deployment of the constellations, can you at least see how you would attempt to attack?  Or is it simply the deployment?  It is two different issues (IMO).  One, you need enough space to be able to evade alpha strikes on battle start.  Two, have realistic windows to approach and do your thing.  Both are pretty big at any difficulty.  I think I've had issue with 2 here recently (one isn't a problem on norm).  Some of the mission set-ups don't make sense (defense missions with enemy ship spawned on top of turrets). 

===Opinion follows===

How you should spawn into a battle should be dependent on the type of battle you are engaged in.  Attacking something?  Outside, looking in.  On the defense?  Inside, looking for weaknesses to exploit.  I think right now all missions are set up pretty much the same way, player spawns just outside, looking in.

Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Cinth

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Maybe if a major event is about to occur an option to leave the despatch mission should become available. I found reading all the info that happens during a despatch mission very difficult as the text scrolls so quickly.
There is a cancel dispatch button there on the screen.  You can also pause the action with "space bar".  I found most of what passed by to be forgettable. :)

why have the dispatch missions cost anything at all? Was it that they would be 'farmed' for BP if not? It seems a simple log, that says you have already done this mission, it is not available for xx would be simpler and avoid the whole time is passing too much problem.

perhaps that would work?
-Teal

I don't that's it at all.  Even in real life, you can only do one significant task at a time.  This is kinda represented ingame by the time cost.  It is an opportunity cost that should be inescapable.  You can only do so much with your time.  :)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Histidine

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As I understood it, the point of dispatch missions is to give you something productive to do instead of just holding down the fast forward key on the solar map until an opportunity to fight arises. That's why they take solar map time.

My view on the problem from testing in .809 (haven't tried newer versions yet) is simply that things take Too Damn Long in general (3-6 months for a battle and 20 months for researching the most basic techs is...)

Offline Cinth

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Smallish battles now are around 1/3 month and I haven't finished a large battle, but it shouldn't be that long (3-6 months).  Time costs were also changed in .811.  I haven't seen anything overly long as far as combat time.  I'd give it ago and see how it stacks up.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

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As I understood it, the point of dispatch missions is to give you something productive to do instead of just holding down the fast forward key on the solar map until an opportunity to fight arises. That's why they take solar map time.

My view on the problem from testing in .809 (haven't tried newer versions yet) is simply that things take Too Damn Long in general (3-6 months for a battle and 20 months for researching the most basic techs is...)

Exactly.

The combat?  THAT has already been fixed.

But the dispatch missions remain a mess.  20 months is the LOWEST cost. I think the highest I've seen is an absurd 700.

But even just 70 or 100 is game-wrecking.

When I did one that was about, 150 I think it was, the map just.... imploded into utter chaos.  The Acutians had 4 outposts and a bazillion armadas, the Andors had been evaporated, the Evucks had exploded, the Thoraxians.... I'm not even sure what happened to them, there had been piles of diseases and disasters everywhere, the balance between races had changed randomly and wildly, a huge number of techs had been researched, pirates had gone berserk and may as well have just been a seperate civilization all their own, and.... it just got even more complicated from there, but you get the idea.  8 squillion events, races entirely destroyed, chaotic wars everywhere.... utter lunacy.

And when did I *start* this?  Near the beginning of the game.  It simply allowed so much time to pass, without my interference, that everything just went uncontrollably berserk.   Doing it later instead of earlier typically leads to even MORE chaos.

Yeah, you can cancel dispatch partway through, but.... that seriously isnt something you should be doing often, because it makes it so that the time you spent is wasted (for the ones that are pre-set costs, that is).

It'll get balanced out well in the end though, I'm sure.

Offline Cyborg

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I just wanted to pop in and give a brief status update on combat. I think it was a good decision to go this route. It's a lot more enjoyable and relaxing to play now. One question, how weak are my guns supposed to be? I'm finding it difficult to kill flagships.
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Offline topper

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As I understood it, the point of dispatch missions is to give you something productive to do instead of just holding down the fast forward key on the solar map until an opportunity to fight arises. That's why they take solar map time.

My view on the problem from testing in .809 (haven't tried newer versions yet) is simply that things take Too Damn Long in general (3-6 months for a battle and 20 months for researching the most basic techs is...)

Not in the alpha yet, but maybe a solution would be to break some of the longer dispatch missions into incremental steps that take shorter amounts of time so that the solar map situation can be re-evaluated:
Research tech X 20%
Research tech X 40%
etc.

Offline x4000

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A few notes:

1. Changes to timing coming.

2. Dispatch missions cost time because, well, that's a huge resource.  The length of time is appropriate, however -- you aren't really supposed to be spending 600 months on something.  However, that's really unclear.  The game will in the next version prevent you from doing that.  And in general will provide you with new ways of getting enough other resources to do those missions faster so that they don't take that long, which is the original intent anyhow.  As your science skill goes up, for instance, or you have a lot of science outposts, that 600 months might fall to 50.

3. Hiring mercenary security guards, scientists, and construction workers is coming.  This will help you expedite the time on those dispatch missions that currently cost so much time -- in another way beyond just getting more outposts or techs, since more options there is important.  And the security guards will provide you a way to defend your outposts.

4. I like the idea a lot about warnings on major events during dispatch missions.  That's coming.

5. The stuff with seeding too close to turrets, etc, is going to be fixed so that doesn't happen.

6. There will be on-screen ring-menu buttons for setting your attack mode so that there won't be so much confusion about what your options even are.

7. The attitude screen is on my hit-list in terms of interfaces I hate, big-time, yeah.  The double dropdowns just don't do it for me.

8. Cyborg, glad you're enjoying combat!  In terms of killing flagships, you have to make sure you're using the right tools for the job.  If you use the gravity lance once their shields are down, for instance, then they pop with pretty much one turn, maybe two max.  If you use something like the minigun, they are so incredibly resistant to that that I don't even know how long it would take.  A long time.

9. There was something else, but I forget what. ;)

I think that was all the main stuff, let me know if I missed anything.
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Offline Cinth

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But the dispatch missions remain a mess.  20 months is the LOWEST cost. I think the highest I've seen is an absurd 700.
Eh?  I jumped into the last game I exploded and checked again.  Assisting with armada construction, harvesting space junk, and mining all had 1 month dispatch time options (up to 40 months, real early in the game).

Quote
But even just 70 or 100 is game-wrecking.

When I did one that was about, 150 I think it was, the map just.... imploded into utter chaos.  The Acutians had 4 outposts and a bazillion armadas, the Andors had been evaporated, the Evucks had exploded, the Thoraxians.... I'm not even sure what happened to them, there had been piles of diseases and disasters everywhere, the balance between races had changed randomly and wildly, a huge number of techs had been researched, pirates had gone berserk and may as well have just been a seperate civilization all their own, and.... it just got even more complicated from there, but you get the idea.  8 squillion events, races entirely destroyed, chaotic wars everywhere.... utter lunacy.

And when did I *start* this?  Near the beginning of the game.  It simply allowed so much time to pass, without my interference, that everything just went uncontrollably berserk.   Doing it later instead of earlier typically leads to even MORE chaos.
Heh, I did this too.  140 months spent on a research mission.  Half the map exploded, the other half imploded.  Absolute hilarity :)  I chalked it up to being a learning experience (lesson being that I can't spend that much time not doing anything).
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Teal_Blue

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As I understood it, the point of dispatch missions is to give you something productive to do instead of just holding down the fast forward key on the solar map until an opportunity to fight arises. That's why they take solar map time.

My view on the problem from testing in .809 (haven't tried newer versions yet) is simply that things take Too Damn Long in general (3-6 months for a battle and 20 months for researching the most basic techs is...)

Exactly.

The combat?  THAT has already been fixed.

But the dispatch missions remain a mess.  20 months is the LOWEST cost. I think the highest I've seen is an absurd 700.

But even just 70 or 100 is game-wrecking.

When I did one that was about, 150 I think it was, the map just.... imploded into utter chaos.  The Acutians had 4 outposts and a bazillion armadas, the Andors had been evaporated, the Evucks had exploded, the Thoraxians.... I'm not even sure what happened to them, there had been piles of diseases and disasters everywhere, the balance between races had changed randomly and wildly, a huge number of techs had been researched, pirates had gone berserk and may as well have just been a seperate civilization all their own, and.... it just got even more complicated from there, but you get the idea.  8 squillion events, races entirely destroyed, chaotic wars everywhere.... utter lunacy.

And when did I *start* this?  Near the beginning of the game.  It simply allowed so much time to pass, without my interference, that everything just went uncontrollably berserk.   Doing it later instead of earlier typically leads to even MORE chaos.

Yeah, you can cancel dispatch partway through, but.... that seriously isnt something you should be doing often, because it makes it so that the time you spent is wasted (for the ones that are pre-set costs, that is).

It'll get balanced out well in the end though, I'm sure.

If this is a 'thoughtful and reflective' strategic game, then why the 'explosion' of events? Shouldn't this be slowed way down? I mean if you want to get 'realistic' and we can only do one thing at a time, kind of stuff, well... some of these things we won't be able to influence, no matter how much time we have. It just seems a crazy waste to have all these months roll by and suddenly everything is completely different than before the mission. I guess I'll have to wait and see, but sitting on the sidelines listening to all this is really disheartening, makes me think everything is really messed up.

-Teal

Offline x4000

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As I understood it, the point of dispatch missions is to give you something productive to do instead of just holding down the fast forward key on the solar map until an opportunity to fight arises. That's why they take solar map time.

My view on the problem from testing in .809 (haven't tried newer versions yet) is simply that things take Too Damn Long in general (3-6 months for a battle and 20 months for researching the most basic techs is...)

Exactly.

The combat?  THAT has already been fixed.

But the dispatch missions remain a mess.  20 months is the LOWEST cost. I think the highest I've seen is an absurd 700.

But even just 70 or 100 is game-wrecking.

When I did one that was about, 150 I think it was, the map just.... imploded into utter chaos.  The Acutians had 4 outposts and a bazillion armadas, the Andors had been evaporated, the Evucks had exploded, the Thoraxians.... I'm not even sure what happened to them, there had been piles of diseases and disasters everywhere, the balance between races had changed randomly and wildly, a huge number of techs had been researched, pirates had gone berserk and may as well have just been a seperate civilization all their own, and.... it just got even more complicated from there, but you get the idea.  8 squillion events, races entirely destroyed, chaotic wars everywhere.... utter lunacy.

And when did I *start* this?  Near the beginning of the game.  It simply allowed so much time to pass, without my interference, that everything just went uncontrollably berserk.   Doing it later instead of earlier typically leads to even MORE chaos.

Yeah, you can cancel dispatch partway through, but.... that seriously isnt something you should be doing often, because it makes it so that the time you spent is wasted (for the ones that are pre-set costs, that is).

It'll get balanced out well in the end though, I'm sure.

If this is a 'thoughtful and reflective' strategic game, then why the 'explosion' of events? Shouldn't this be slowed way down? I mean if you want to get 'realistic' and we can only do one thing at a time, kind of stuff, well... some of these things we won't be able to influence, no matter how much time we have. It just seems a crazy waste to have all these months roll by and suddenly everything is completely different than before the mission. I guess I'll have to wait and see, but sitting on the sidelines listening to all this is really disheartening, makes me think everything is really messed up.

-Teal

One month is 20 seconds of game time.  So doing 70 months of dispatch is basically like sitting around doing absolutely nothing in a strategy game for 23 minutes.  It may be that we still need to tune this downwards some, but a 70 month contract won't even be something you're allowed to take in the next version.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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So doing 70 months of dispatch is basically like sitting around doing absolutely nothing in a strategy game for 23 minutes.
So kind of like refleeting? ;)
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Offline x4000

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So doing 70 months of dispatch is basically like sitting around doing absolutely nothing in a strategy game for 23 minutes.
So kind of like refleeting? ;)

More or less, yeah. :)

In this case we're making it so that new players can't accidentally shoot themselves in the foot, though, and experienced players can't just grind the clock to get an "optimal" result through personal-annoyance-to-the-player, heh.

Having the mercenary scientists and so forth is something I'm really excited about, as that's something I've been wanting to do in some fashion (for thematic reasons), and it just makes so much sense for this particular mechanic (dispatch missions) in terms of solving several problems while keeping the balance there.
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Sorry for the outburst, i told myself i wasn't going to do that this time, anyway, i think i just don't really know how things are playing out. Later when the game is done and i play it will be different.

 I'm just listening to the back and forth too much. So Thanks for the note, sorry to get all freaked out. Too much drama sometimes i'm afraid. Anyway, thanks and hope to see some vids of how things play after the game is smoothed out a bit.

-Teal