Author Topic: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat  (Read 8185 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2014, 08:01:18 pm »
Briefly, sorry:

1. Yep, lots of debris.  It provides cover and a way for you to use that to block missiles, which otherwise are un-dodgeable.

2. What are the problems with the debris?  The fact that it slows you down as much as it does getting frustrating, or the shot-blocking?  I'm really asking, it's not rhetorical.

3. Noted on the battles taking too long.  I've had that feeling with a few of them, too.  I'm not sure quite how to solve that just yet, but it is something in the back of my mind to look at.  Are you on Normal difficulty level, or something else?

4. Noted on the solar map.  There's still a lot of blanks I need to fill in there, it's just absolutely a massive amount of text.  Notes on specific things that are unclear are always welcome.  You don't have to go into great detail, but just flagging stuff for us is a big help.  Since I already know how to play, it's easy for me to miss something "obvious," like the fact that you have to fly to a planet to interact with it.
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Offline Misery

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2014, 08:28:00 pm »
Okay, some very quick first impressions, dont have a whole lot of time right now.

Firstly..... whoa.  What happened here.....?   That was sorta my first thought.   This was followed by evil cackling as I realized what the combat had just become.

This is pretty fun, though it might need a difficulty boost.  Or at least that's the impression I get.  Me VS 12 flagships with constellations everywhere and new enemy ships being spawned all over the place was still a fight I won without getting too much into danger as ship health goes, while mostly only using one of the 5 abilities set at the time (the one that pops small ships nearby).  I had increased the "power" level of all of the enemies, though I'm not entirely certain what that does.  You mighta posted elsewhere about that for all I know, but like I said time is very limited at the moment so I cant go reading everything just yet, just giving quick impressions before I forget.

Enemy shots need to stand out a bit more, and it might help if debris stands out a bit more too.  Depending on the background it can be hard to see them.  That being said I didn't have trouble dodging most things.  Actual enemy attack patterns for some ship types might need some changes in order for them to become effective.   Some things already just cant hit me (or can only barely hit), like those fat ships that I suddenly cant remember the name of.  More testing is needed of course.

I dont really get the feeling yet of battles taking too long.... and I imagine they'll be shorter in fights where I actually have allies.... but then I seem to be killing the crap outta most things quickly.

Aint messed with much of the different weapon types yet.  Used the spreadshot, since it fits my preferred playstyle of charging at stuff.  I like this one.

It's gonna be hard for me to give proper feedback overall on the difficulty of everything though; this is too close to a genre that I'm extremely practiced at (shmups of course) and so is automatically going to be easier in most situations.   

Oh, and on the note of debris, I dont see a problem with it.   If there ISNT alot of it, it's pointless, after all.   I didn't run into it much. 

It can be confusing though as to knowing where to go if stuff starts in positions offa my radar screen.


Now, there is one problem that does occur to me:  This isnt what was originally shown off and explained, in your preview video or info sent to sites like RPS or wherever it was.  I think alot of people are going to be rather expecting the RTS-ish stuff from this, and after AI War, that'll be reason for some excitement for some of them.   Now of course I'm talking only about the combat here, the solar stuff I dont think you showed yet.   But I'm just pointing out a current contrast in info before, and what exists now.

That being said this is pretty fun so far, and as I'd said elsewhere (and as everyone else seems to have said) the solar map stuff has incredible potential, so I think you're on your way towards something good.  Here's hoping though that such a drastic change to the combat aspect wont have too many downsides.



That's enough for now, more on this later.

Offline Billick

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2014, 08:29:41 pm »
Briefly, sorry:

1. Yep, lots of debris.  It provides cover and a way for you to use that to block missiles, which otherwise are un-dodgeable.

2. What are the problems with the debris?  The fact that it slows you down as much as it does getting frustrating, or the shot-blocking?  I'm really asking, it's not rhetorical.
I like the concept of the debris, it's just that there's too much of it.  I got in a couple of battles where the majority of the field around the enemy fleet was mostly debris. 

3. Noted on the battles taking too long.  I've had that feeling with a few of them, too.  I'm not sure quite how to solve that just yet, but it is something in the back of my mind to look at.  Are you on Normal difficulty level, or something else?
Normal difficulty, yes.  Some of the battles are okay, some are pretty long.  They also tend to be the ones with excessive debris as well.

4. Noted on the solar map.  There's still a lot of blanks I need to fill in there, it's just absolutely a massive amount of text.  Notes on specific things that are unclear are always welcome.  You don't have to go into great detail, but just flagging stuff for us is a big help.  Since I already know how to play, it's easy for me to miss something "obvious," like the fact that you have to fly to a planet to interact with it.
I figured there was a lot to be added.  It's mostly not knowing what all the numbers mean.

Offline x4000

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2014, 08:38:09 pm »
Brief notes:

1. Billick, understood on the debris.  Misery: from just playing in combat practice, I don't think you'll get a good sense on the amount of it.  For now I'm not going to change anything there, I'm just waiting to see how things go.

2. Misery, if you're playing with low power level enemies, it's hard to say on the difficulty.  That said, on Normal I tend to find myself in a fight for my life in a lot of scenarios, while not having any trouble with others.  It's supposed to vary in difficulty based on what kind of scenario you're in, really, versus just always being super hard all the time.  Glad you're enjoying it, and obviously I'm not remotely claiming balance is close to perfect.  I'm just kind of stating what the overall expectations are.  It may be that on hard difficulty in particular the player power just needs to flat-out be toned down some.  Or health and shields, not sure.  I may need to also just go ahead and add a Misery difficulty, to be frank -- the current Normal mode does me pretty well, so having it jump from that to something you find challenging would be pretty crazy.  I will go ahead and make a note of that, actually.

3. You're thinking of Claymores not being able to hit you.  Those are mainly balanced to go after smaller ships.  I have made a change that should help them hit you better, though.  If you find other cases of ships that are too cheesy, let me know, though!

4. Regarding this not being what has been shown off to the press so far, as I noted that's why we try to avoid Kickstarters.  In those scenarios that is what is promised and thus there are fiscal obligations.  Here that's not the case.  The main thing for us is "is it fun," more than anything else at all.  There will likely be some backsplash from this, but I don't think there has been so much press about this thus far that it will really be an issue.  In general the concept most exciting to people seems to be the solar map anyhow, and that hasn't changed.
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Offline Billick

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2014, 08:51:20 pm »
From your comments and Misery's I think it may be only in certain scenarios where the debris gets excessive.  It might be a good idea to leave it for a few days so you can pinpoint the types of maps where it can be a problem. 

Offline Misery

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2014, 09:03:06 pm »
Brief notes:

1. Billick, understood on the debris.  Misery: from just playing in combat practice, I don't think you'll get a good sense on the amount of it.  For now I'm not going to change anything there, I'm just waiting to see how things go.

2. Misery, if you're playing with low power level enemies, it's hard to say on the difficulty.  That said, on Normal I tend to find myself in a fight for my life in a lot of scenarios, while not having any trouble with others.  It's supposed to vary in difficulty based on what kind of scenario you're in, really, versus just always being super hard all the time.  Glad you're enjoying it, and obviously I'm not remotely claiming balance is close to perfect.  I'm just kind of stating what the overall expectations are.  It may be that on hard difficulty in particular the player power just needs to flat-out be toned down some.  Or health and shields, not sure.  I may need to also just go ahead and add a Misery difficulty, to be frank -- the current Normal mode does me pretty well, so having it jump from that to something you find challenging would be pretty crazy.  I will go ahead and make a note of that, actually.

3. You're thinking of Claymores not being able to hit you.  Those are mainly balanced to go after smaller ships.  I have made a change that should help them hit you better, though.  If you find other cases of ships that are too cheesy, let me know, though!

4. Regarding this not being what has been shown off to the press so far, as I noted that's why we try to avoid Kickstarters.  In those scenarios that is what is promised and thus there are fiscal obligations.  Here that's not the case.  The main thing for us is "is it fun," more than anything else at all.  There will likely be some backsplash from this, but I don't think there has been so much press about this thus far that it will really be an issue.  In general the concept most exciting to people seems to be the solar map anyhow, and that hasn't changed.

Yeah, I wasnt sure just what the power level was, so I set it high up, at 90 currently for all enemies.   That's higher than it was, but I can still kill everything, though I use abilities a good bit more often when it's high like that, so that's a good thing.  It's even more fun when using those.  It's satisfying to use one and see that yeah, I used it at a good time and it just had this big effect.

The mission type is.... er.... "kill everything with constellations everywhere", I forget what it was actually called, haha.  Breaking through the constellations is satisfying to do.  Very entertaining, lots of chaos.

Now, there IS one big problem that occurs to me:  there doesnt seem to be a way to like, look around the battlefield and such.   I'm guessing that as a rule this isnt supposed to just be me running around shooting everything that exists.... I'm thinking some battles are more going to be "Well, ok, I should go pop this target over here, but leave this other one alone for such and such reason" based on what's going on when there are various allies/factions/whatever. Which should be very interesting in the context of the solar map stuff.  But it's hard to do that if I can only see around my ship, or the somewhat vague info from the minimap.

Offline x4000

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2014, 09:12:22 pm »
From your comments and Misery's I think it may be only in certain scenarios where the debris gets excessive.  It might be a good idea to leave it for a few days so you can pinpoint the types of maps where it can be a problem.

Makes good sense.

Yeah, I wasnt sure just what the power level was, so I set it high up, at 90 currently for all enemies.   That's higher than it was, but I can still kill everything, though I use abilities a good bit more often when it's high like that, so that's a good thing.  It's even more fun when using those.  It's satisfying to use one and see that yeah, I used it at a good time and it just had this big effect.

Oh lord, that is extremely high, yes.  So it's definitely not that you were playing something "too easy."  Well, the new difficulty level is in there for you now!

Now, there IS one big problem that occurs to me:  there doesnt seem to be a way to like, look around the battlefield and such.   I'm guessing that as a rule this isnt supposed to just be me running around shooting everything that exists.... I'm thinking some battles are more going to be "Well, ok, I should go pop this target over here, but leave this other one alone for such and such reason" based on what's going on when there are various allies/factions/whatever. Which should be very interesting in the context of the solar map stuff.  But it's hard to do that if I can only see around my ship, or the somewhat vague info from the minimap.

The lack of info is intentional, making it so that you have to explore around.  If you're out where there are a ton of constellations, there's not much in the way of secondary objectives.  It's typically when you are close to planets or outposts where there are targets of opportunity, and you might spend your time specifically hunting them up.  Honestly it is hard to get a feel for that from the combat practice.

Insofar as the main goals go, it's typically "kill all the enemies" or "find the specific thing to kill" or "kill all the enemies for as long as X is doing its work" or "avoid all the enemies and get to the marker" or something along those lines.  So the vague-ish minimap isn't really a problem with any of those things.  The rest of it is all a matter of taking the time to explore, and risk more damage as you do so.  In the context of the game it makes more sense, because in combat practice there is literally no point to the secondary objectives -- you can't win a battle from them, and they don't actually DO anything since there is no solar map for them to do anything to.  So that's really taking them out of context, literally.
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Offline Misery

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2014, 09:25:45 pm »
From your comments and Misery's I think it may be only in certain scenarios where the debris gets excessive.  It might be a good idea to leave it for a few days so you can pinpoint the types of maps where it can be a problem.

Makes good sense.

Yeah, I wasnt sure just what the power level was, so I set it high up, at 90 currently for all enemies.   That's higher than it was, but I can still kill everything, though I use abilities a good bit more often when it's high like that, so that's a good thing.  It's even more fun when using those.  It's satisfying to use one and see that yeah, I used it at a good time and it just had this big effect.

Oh lord, that is extremely high, yes.  So it's definitely not that you were playing something "too easy."  Well, the new difficulty level is in there for you now!

Now, there IS one big problem that occurs to me:  there doesnt seem to be a way to like, look around the battlefield and such.   I'm guessing that as a rule this isnt supposed to just be me running around shooting everything that exists.... I'm thinking some battles are more going to be "Well, ok, I should go pop this target over here, but leave this other one alone for such and such reason" based on what's going on when there are various allies/factions/whatever. Which should be very interesting in the context of the solar map stuff.  But it's hard to do that if I can only see around my ship, or the somewhat vague info from the minimap.

The lack of info is intentional, making it so that you have to explore around.  If you're out where there are a ton of constellations, there's not much in the way of secondary objectives.  It's typically when you are close to planets or outposts where there are targets of opportunity, and you might spend your time specifically hunting them up.  Honestly it is hard to get a feel for that from the combat practice.

Insofar as the main goals go, it's typically "kill all the enemies" or "find the specific thing to kill" or "kill all the enemies for as long as X is doing its work" or "avoid all the enemies and get to the marker" or something along those lines.  So the vague-ish minimap isn't really a problem with any of those things.  The rest of it is all a matter of taking the time to explore, and risk more damage as you do so.  In the context of the game it makes more sense, because in combat practice there is literally no point to the secondary objectives -- you can't win a battle from them, and they don't actually DO anything since there is no solar map for them to do anything to.  So that's really taking them out of context, literally.

Ok, the exploration idea makes sense well enough then.

I'd say then that probably the biggest problem is some of the visuals;  like the bullets/debris needing to contrast more, that stuff.  It might also be helpful to make the different types of constellation turrets (is that what they're called?) have some way of being differentiated visually.   It's kinda annoying to have to stare at the things for a time to figure out just which one is the obnoxious snot that keeps sniping at me or something like that.   Their presence though makes things very interesting.

As the difficulty goes, an added level is appreciated, heh.  I'll probably do multiple playthroughs of the different difficulties at random, I'll try to remember to specify which I'm doing when giving feedback.

Oh, there was one funky thing;  there was one of those white/green structures that do things when you get close, right, well one of them apparantly summons like 8 billion allied ships in a CPU-exploding burst of sprites.... it's possible that this one might need toning down a bit.  When I found it, it was at the very end of that last fight I did.... so all of these hilariously overran the 1 enemy flagship and half of a constellation that remained.... but even early in the fight, there were so many of them that it probably would have just devastated the enemy side all on it's own, even with 12 flagships and tons of constellation turrets and spawned ships everywhere.   

Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2014, 09:26:07 pm »
Is there some kind of threshold for "kill all hostiles" objectives?

I think there have been a one or two times (not too many) so far where I ended up having to do the old X-Com "dammit, where are those last few guys" exercise. Not quite as bad as the referenced game mind you, but a bit awkward.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2014, 10:14:28 pm »
Okay, little late getting home today, but I noticed there is an update so let's get to it.


Combat changes. If I could describe this, your ship is always in a thrusting behavior, and you're just trying to aim it left and right to navigate the battlefield. While you are flying around, you aim your cannons with the left mouse button and shoot everything that moves.


I don't really think this is like most shmup, if for no other reason than the enemies are somewhere on the map, and you need to go find them. You get a hint with the radar.


First, the positive. This is way better than what you had. You have so much more opportunity here for gamesmanship and playing the game. I liked having multiple factions on the battlefield, although I need more of a sense that they are interacting with me, or that they need my help. I spent some time flying around observing the burlust and robots go at it, but they appeared to be using feather dusters, because nothing ever happened until I decided to open fire.


I do think there needs to be an opportunity to backstab, and be rewarded/punished for backstabbing.


I did have trouble flying around with the direction keys. It seems to be using cardinal directions instead of a smooth rotation. I would prefer the asteroids model.


On the overall gameplay, I'm finding it hard to know what's going on and how my behavior is affecting the grand strategy of things. I still need to put in more playtime to figure it out, but I think there is something greater here that is being lost on the player. You might do well to have some gossip text, maybe some conversation, maybe some neutral pilots in beginner mode that message the player. There's just so much information that I don't know how to angle it. I guess that will come with time, but I feel like you will lose some of your hook if you make this too obscure. Not every player is going to have the ability to figure this out of what you're trying to do. I know that I do, and I know that with some playtime this will be no problem, but I just don't see that in today's generation.


Now the cons are, you really need to fix the jitter. It's making me seasick. I have to close the game now because that's all I can take, visually. My ship just keeps twitching and jittering holy judas priest why..Please fix.









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Offline Misery

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 03:14:16 am »
Hmm.... cant test any further until another patch here.   Certain Missions are super-glitchy.  The ones that I've tried so far all bug out, in particular the "raid pirate freighters".  It just resets and restarts.  Pirate base missions do not end when the base is destroyed.   EDIT:  I said this, but I ended up jumping into the game again ANYWAY.  I can give you this right away:  This game is very enjoyable so far, or I wouldnt so quickly jump back in like that after encountering too many large bugs.   Missions that arent those 2 pirate types seem sorta fine.... Most of them still need work in some form or another, but I'll go into that on Mantis in detail.  It's mostly those 2 that seem broken.

The biggest problem though is the solar map.... there's next to nothing for the player to do early on.  I end up just sitting there holding down the x2 button for most of it.  The only real things to do are the pirate missions, both of which are glitched.   Specifically, there's only pirate missions as far as "friendly actions" go with any race at start.  There's not much to do to gain influence; most political actions seem to only give +1 or +2, which is very little. 

Or at least, it SEEMS like there's not much to do, anyway.  The tutorial-ish bits are alot better than they were before, but there's still alot of info missing, which is probably why I dont really know what to do with most of the political options and such.  I must apply more science!

Also the planet inventories are confusing.  Cant tell what any of the stuff does.  Also makes trade routes confusing... if I've got one giving microbes to another in exchange for helium, well.... I've not the foggiest idea what this actually accomplishes.

There's some of the political stuff available, but the vast majority of it seems to have no purpose that early on, aside from telling them "focus on the environment" or things like that.  For example, I have no idea what moon colonization does.  The one and only other option that I can think of a purpose for is the "increase your armadas!" one, but that one is glitched and doesnt work.  Some options seem to need.   EDIT:  Getting a bit of a better idea as I go along, sort of, but most options remain confusing.

Also noticing that allies seem pathetically weak, so far their flagships do pretty much nothing.  The enemy farts out about 10 zillion ships of various sorts, but allied flagships dont seem to do this hardly at all, which ends up meaning that I have to do absolutely everything.

Again though, that's in the pirate missions.  Havent done non-pirate ones yet.

....and the minigun, that's a really awful weapon.  It cannot defeat things like interceptors whatsoever, because it's not going to hit them.  I end up using my own summoned fleets as well as things like nukes to kill most things since that gun just cant do it. Pretty useless. It's all still doable, but very annoying.  The best change would probably be to speed up it's projectiles dramatically.  At least 2.5x faster than they are now, probably 3x faster, though keeping the same range.  A direct fire weapon like that simply isnt of any use if it's projectiles are that slow;  that shot speed makes alot of sense for something like the spread gun, but not the minigun.



With bugs fixed though and a couple of balance issues dealt with though, this should be pretty darn good even in it's current unfinished state.


One question I have though:  Enemy flagships, can they simply create as many fleets as they want?  As best I can tell, they do not run out.  A good strategy in some situations would seem to be to allow some of the fleets to be created, and get them to come to me so I can pop them before then going after the enemy flagship, which would now be reduced in strength due to being low on fleet summons.  Doesnt seem to work though.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:02:54 am by Misery »

Offline PokerChen

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 04:45:47 am »
Hmmm.. you've just "given" spaceflight to a single race, and your species have been killing manned spaceflight right up until that point,  so where do those pirates come from? Did they also steal tech from the new generation of spacefarers?

 = = =
Chris, I'll have to trust that decision to change from RTS to Shooter - had I tested the old battle model, I probably would've said to segregate it more like Starsector does by splitting all RTS functions onto a minimap layer and keeping the main battle interface strictly single-ship control (rather than axe it).

As long as the AI for friends and enemies behave reasonably believable in the end product, then I'm fine with the change.

Offline Misery

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 06:55:15 am »
Hmmm.. you've just "given" spaceflight to a single race, and your species have been killing manned spaceflight right up until that point,  so where do those pirates come from? Did they also steal tech from the new generation of spacefarers?

 = = =
Chris, I'll have to trust that decision to change from RTS to Shooter - had I tested the old battle model, I probably would've said to segregate it more like Starsector does by splitting all RTS functions onto a minimap layer and keeping the main battle interface strictly single-ship control (rather than axe it).

As long as the AI for friends and enemies behave reasonably believable in the end product, then I'm fine with the change.


The pirates seem to be from the spacefaring races only as best I can tell.... like some of the population split off from the others completely to become space jerks.

Which explains why having a particular race send you on a mission that involves pirates in any way may actually lead to you fighting some of that same race in that mission (along with others).

Offline x4000

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 10:31:46 am »
1. Noted on the sniper turrets.

2. Straggler guys should automatically chase you down, unless it's a flagship.

3. For the jitter, do you have a way of reproing?

4. Noted on there not being enough to do on the solar map early on.

5. Noted on the minigun speed.

6. All fleets have a fixed number of squadrons in them.  We'll have to look and see what is up with why the allied ones are spawning so few there.

7. Yes, all pirates are from spacefaring races only.

8. Other things also noted, and to come in upcoming patches.  Rushing around, sorry for the brevity here. ;)
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Offline Cinth

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Re: New Alpha Round For The Last Federation, Heavily Revised Combat
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 10:40:15 am »
5. Noted on the minigun speed.

I haven't had much issue getting the minigun to work (it's been the weapon of choice for me right now).

The biggest problem for me (and Misery pointed it out) are the interceptors.  They are small enough to fly between shots in the stream.  Usually I just fly away from them so they follow me directly (line up and catch mah bullets plz!!).
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