Author Topic: Tips on Paladin?  (Read 606 times)

Offline TheVampire100

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Tips on Paladin?
« on: January 15, 2018, 07:10:08 AM »
I don't get the hang of him. it's mostly the little lunge he does with each attack, that kills it for me. It messes up my movement quite often and I have to keep myself from keeping the button pressed.
The shield also a little akward to use but I slightly get the hang of it. Just recently noticed that  it also can stun enemies.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2018, 11:41:37 AM »
I don't get the hang of him. it's mostly the little lunge he does with each attack, that kills it for me. It messes up my movement quite often and I have to keep myself from keeping the button pressed.
The shield also a little akward to use but I slightly get the hang of it. Just recently noticed that  it also can stun enemies.

Actually, the Paladin's main weapon is currently getting a bit of an overhaul. Maybe the shield too, I'm not sure. So, the Paladin will play a little differently in the next build. Hopefully a lot better.

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2018, 02:03:06 PM »
I think he would work better without a lunge. Actually, almost any weapon that moves the mech in a way can screw him up, but most weapons move it just backwards and even then just slightly.
The lunge on the other hand is a little... too much. Probably because it's on a melee weapon, so you are already really close to the enemy and the extra step might be enough to get you killed (or at least get you hit). If it wasn't for that, I would be fine with the design. But I'm curious what the change might bring.
The shield on the other hand is... kinda two sided in many ways. on one thing it's great if you time it rigth because it eats quite a lot of bullets. That you have to change your aim on the other hand is not so good. This is more relevant if you use a controller, with the mouse it's easier but you cannot change view and not shoot at the same time when you play with a controller.

It's kinda awkward that the Missile Launcher is currently the only thing that is 100% reliable on the Paladin. The warhog has already the spot for the coolest Missile Launcher, so the Missile Launcher of the Paladin does not make me want him to play more.
The Warhoh on the other end is perfect in ever single aspect, I love this slow powerhouse. I love walking straight into patterns and laugh at the miserable attempts to kill me. ALthough the sprite is pretty big which might confuse players about the hitbox size.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2018, 03:06:42 PM »
I don't get the hang of him. it's mostly the little lunge he does with each attack, that kills it for me. It messes up my movement quite often and I have to keep myself from keeping the button pressed.
The shield also a little akward to use but I slightly get the hang of it. Just recently noticed that  it also can stun enemies.

Actually, the Paladin's main weapon is currently getting a bit of an overhaul. Maybe the shield too, I'm not sure. So, the Paladin will play a little differently in the next build. Hopefully a lot better.
just how much of an over haul is this? big enough that I should avoid giving him a ride in till he's over hauled for instance?.
c.r

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2018, 03:39:32 PM »
Quote
I think he would work better without a lunge. Actually, almost any weapon that moves the mech in a way can screw him up, but most weapons move it just backwards and even then just slightly.
The lunge on the other hand is a little... too much. Probably because it's on a melee weapon, so you are already really close to the enemy and the extra step might be enough to get you killed (or at least get you hit). If it wasn't for that, I would be fine with the design. But I'm curious what the change might bring.
The shield on the other hand is... kinda two sided in many ways. on one thing it's great if you time it rigth because it eats quite a lot of bullets. That you have to change your aim on the other hand is not so good. This is more relevant if you use a controller, with the mouse it's easier but you cannot change view and not shoot at the same time when you play with a controller.

I think the lunge will be either removed or toned down on that weapon. I can't actually test the Paladin Shield with a controller at the moment because my controller is broken. I've been meaning to order a new one for a while. Goldenwolf is working on the shield, so I'll see if he can test it with a joypad.

Quote
It's kinda awkward that the Missile Launcher is currently the only thing that is 100% reliable on the Paladin. The warhog has already the spot for the coolest Missile Launcher, so the Missile Launcher of the Paladin does not make me want him to play more.
The Warhoh on the other end is perfect in ever single aspect, I love this slow powerhouse. I love walking straight into patterns and laugh at the miserable attempts to kill me. ALthough the sprite is pretty big which might confuse players about the hitbox size.

The hitbox is a bit bigger on the Warhog. I think the size of the hitbox is scaled to the increased size of the mech.

Quote
just how much of an over haul is this? big enough that I should avoid giving him a ride in till he's over hauled for instance?.

Mainly just the main sword weapon is getting looked at. You can wait for the newer version if you want, it probably doesn't matter much either way. Maybe just ignore the sword weapon.

Thanks for the feedback! :)

Offline Misery

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2018, 11:36:11 PM »
I love walking straight into patterns and laugh at the miserable attempts to kill me.

Anyone saying something like this always gives me the temptation to just make everything worse.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2018, 06:33:52 AM »
I love walking straight into patterns and laugh at the miserable attempts to kill me.

Anyone saying something like this always gives me the temptation to just make everything worse.
Misery: the one thing that makes the Warhog tremble in fear.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2018, 07:08:28 AM »
I love walking straight into patterns and laugh at the miserable attempts to kill me.

Anyone saying something like this always gives me the temptation to just make everything worse.
I immediately regret my words.
The Warhog is actually in a good spot from my point of view. At least on normal, keep in mind, I always talk about normal difficulty when it comes to balancing stuff. This should be the default difficulty and for me normal means, that it's easy to get throug while still maintaining a challegning level. So pretty much to that point,t hat the player still has to play skillfully while not getting frustrated because the game is too hard.
If you find the Warhog too easy, pleas elook on Hard Mode and Misery mode, don't apply your balancing changes all the time on normal as well. As far as easy and Super easy go, I think warhog ight be op there because the additional HP make him so tanky, he can shrug off most damage as long as he gets the double HP bonus on the first level up. But again, i find this okay. On these diffculties you should have a very easy time and don't have to see a gameover screen after two floors.
What teh warhog lacks, is the progress of other mechs. His passive ability does simply not scale that well because at the higher floors the damage migration plays atoo little role when you face Warden and Terminus. These fights tend to go super long and the damage adds up (more so, because he makes it harder to dodge with his slow movement speed and his bigger hitbox). That way I think the whole "Just let them shoot your face and bear it" is justified and not a balance issue. It's at that point where you can take on most normal enemies but get problems with bosses (longer matches, more shoots that are directed at you, too few possibilities to heal yourself during the fight). Mechs have different situations where they shine (rooms with few enemies and slow attack rate) and where they are worse (bosses, enemies with very fast attack rate).
The player has to play around these strengths and weaknesses. But simply adding more diffcult stuff makes it harder for everyone and hard is not always good, challenge is good, hard is just frustrating.

Offline Misery

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2018, 07:10:15 PM »
'Twas merely a bit of a joke, sir.   Mostly.  I'm too lazy to make really big changes like that anyway.  But yes, they aren't needed. Even Normal mode is hard enough... I still sometimes see people play this and watch as they get absolutely shredded by early-game bosses on Normal (or even below).  That being said though, some of the expansion stuff is a little harder to tank now.  Particularly be wary of the golden floor bosses; they tend to have higher damage on their attacks.  2 damage from a bullet isn't much to tank, particularly with armor, but when something is doing 4 or 5 (or in one extremely specific instance, 15, but you'll only get hit by that if you do something amazingly stupid) per shot it can get a bit nastier.  That being said though, some of the bosses in the gold floors are actually getting a bit of a nerf. Not in terms of damage/stats, I mean their patterns.  I may or may not have gone a tad overboard with certain ones.

I do think the Warthog is in a pretty good place as these go.  Not to mention that with the missiles functioning the way they do, while those are very useful in their way they also give the player a lot less defensive options.  If this mech was without it's extra bit of armor, it might be quite underpowered.  I mean, that missile launcher is half of the point of the thing.

I end up using that mech quite a bit myself.  Launcher means that if a small group of enemies is getting too annoying, I can pop them all at once.  And then have no missiles.  Usually I make it a priority to find things that will in some way give me more missiles constantly. 

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tips on Paladin?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2018, 10:20:14 AM »
Okay, so Goldenwolf has completed the latest round of changes to the Paladin, which should improve things. The mech was a bit off, I think. Thanks for the feedback Vampire, very useful. :)

Oh, I'm thinking that the next build will go out on Monday probably, a couple of days before the AuGMENTED launch.