Author Topic: AI War themed mech...?  (Read 3593 times)

Offline ptarth

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2018, 09:54:01 PM »
Going off of Keith's original thought:
 
Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly throw in full map knowledge as an early perk.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 10:40:50 AM by ptarth »
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2018, 11:28:34 PM »
Going off of Keith's original thought:
 
Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly through in full map knowledge as an early perk.

Oooh, there we go. That might work well.

Offline tombik

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2018, 04:08:54 AM »
Is there a way to make Minibosses compulsory? While ptarth's idea will work well, it may decrease the run time a lot, which is not AIWar like :D

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2018, 12:24:25 PM »
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Maybe we can have some weapons from AI War races too? Spire photon lance, Neinzul drone launcher, Zenith Devourer module? These are just some names/ideas I have but I honestly have no idea what these kind of things would actually do.

I think for the actual mech weapons then we would probably go for something like that, yeah. Just a cool weapon from AI War that seems like it would fit. For example, Spire Photon Lance sounds super cool! Although I haven't actually played much AI War so I'm not sure what that weapon would look like. Any more thoughts on potential weapons would be helpful if anybody has any ideas. 

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Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly through in full map knowledge as an early perk.

Sounds like it could work. This would mean that the player is pretty much trying to take the shortest route possible through to the finish? So, most runs would consist of making a beeline straight to the boss? Is that a good thing...I'm not sure! I suppose the interesting aspect is that because the player will have a full view of the map, they will have to make choices on whether they beeline straight to the boss or make any detours to shops, health upgrade rooms etc. That sounds like it could be interesting.

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Is there a way to make Minibosses compulsory? While ptarth's idea will work well, it may decrease the run time a lot, which is not AIWar like

There's currently not, but Keith could code something in for that, I imagine. Yeah, the issue with the idea might be that most runs will just consist of making a beeline straight to the boss.

Thanks for all the ideas everyone. If this mech is going to work then it needs to be designed by those with AI War knowledge , so I can't really take too much of a part in the discussions at the moment. We definitely seem to be on the right track, though! Thanks! :D 


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2018, 02:25:15 PM »
Going off of Keith's original thought:
 
Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly throw in full map knowledge as an early perk.
Something even more AIW-like, though with a major drawback:

1) You can leave normal (non-boss/miniboss/condemend) rooms without clearing them.
2) Any XP gain is deferred until the room is cleared (if you never clear it, you never get XP for killing that room's monsters).
3) The "every room" penalty in ptarth's idea instead is applied when you clear a room.
4) Give really good perks. Like "MkIV Scout" (reveal all floors) at an early level; multiple marks of "Gravity Turrets" (reduce enemy speed); "Max Armor" (reduce all enemy damage by 80%). MkI Nuke (gives you a consumable that, well, nukes the room, but also adds to the "AIP" penalty like you cleared a room). If you can implement a good photon lance weapon (huge reload time, fixed angle once fired, but is almost unstoppable) that would be a good one for a later level perk.

To summarize: Gaining xp is both very helpful and very dangerous, and you can guerrilla your way through the floors.

The main drawback is that allowing leave-before-clear permits all kinds of cheese. Ducking out mid-fight to regenerate shields, etc.

But, I respectfully submit, that cheesiness would be the most AIW-like thing about it ;)
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2018, 06:21:45 PM »
The main drawback is that allowing leave-before-clear permits all kinds of cheese. Ducking out mid-fight to regenerate shields, etc.

Option 1: Shields only recharge upon entering a new room. (or leaving a cleared room)
Option 2: Enforce permanent no shields
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 06:23:16 PM by Draco18s »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2018, 07:33:34 PM »
(or leaving a cleared room)
Yea, that would handle that.

So we'd have to see how cheesy other uses of the door would be.

For one, I don't think the shot patterns would persist if you left and came back, because only the current room is fully "in memory". Clearing a big storm that way could potentially be fairly cheesy.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2018, 11:20:14 PM »
Hmm. Yeah, that would be a problem.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2018, 04:36:38 AM »
And actually, I think all the enemies would be regenerated as if it were a new room; dead ones not staying dead or in their existing positions, etc.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2018, 12:29:57 PM »
And actually, I think all the enemies would be regenerated as if it were a new room; dead ones not staying dead or in their existing positions, etc.

There's already a way to duck out of a fight right now. If a secret room is adjacent to a room without any special bombables, the door is automatically (and always) open.

Since secret rooms ALWAYS have a warp pad in them, you can warp somewhere else and recharge your shields and warp back.

Here's what resets:
Enemy health
Enemy positions
Bullets

Anything that was killed stays killed.

Offline Endless Rain

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2018, 07:12:35 PM »
I've figured out an idea that makes this concept much more interesting.

The AI Mech's level-up perks buff your enemies, not you.

This causes you to want to avoid XP because leveling makes them stronger, but you have some control over how they become stronger. For example, you could choose between increasing enemy health, damage, or spawn rate when you level up, but you have to pick at least one. It's also similar to AI War's philosophy of "pick the ways you want to get killed".

I quite like Keith's suggestion of the AI Mech getting free shop items. Combined with leveling up buffing your enemies, it sounds like a fun and balanced playstyle, and very thematically similar to AI war.

Now I'm wondering about mechs based off other games by Arcen. A Skyward Collapse mech that makes enemies fight each other? An A Valley Without Wind 2 mech that is constantly being chased by a slow but invincible boss robot? A Bionic Dues mech that can switch out between four different weapon sets? There are quite a lot of possibilities. (I have no clue what a Tidalis mech would do though.)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 04:25:59 AM »
The AI Mech's level-up perks buff your enemies, not you.
Now that could work!

"How do you want to die today?"

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A Skyward Collapse mech that makes enemies fight each other?
Radically infeasible ;)

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An A Valley Without Wind 2 mech that is constantly being chased by a slow but invincible boss robot?
It could cause a particular entity to spawn at your starting location X seconds after you start. The "chased", "slow", and "invincible" parts are fine. Though I imagine it would make some boss fights impossible due to the precision dodging needed. It's kind of like adding an invincible goomba to a high-difficulty touhou boss fight: quickly goes from "Can be done without getting hit" to "this is flatly impossible", despite the low power of the thing added.

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A Bionic Dues mech that can switch out between four different weapon sets?
Possible, though it'd be a fair bit of interface work to communicate your options in a full-blown way. I suppose it could compromise on 3-4 lines of text on the escape menu telling you the names of the other weapons, and adding a hotkey for switching. But "adding a hotkey" is a bigger deal than in other games because of the need to support controllers.
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Offline Misery

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 12:58:47 PM »
It could cause a particular entity to spawn at your starting location X seconds after you start. The "chased", "slow", and "invincible" parts are fine. Though I imagine it would make some boss fights impossible due to the precision dodging needed. It's kind of like adding an invincible goomba to a high-difficulty touhou boss fight: quickly goes from "Can be done without getting hit" to "this is flatly impossible", despite the low power of the thing added.

This one's viable, actually.  It's even been done before.  Look up "Lord of the Jammed" in Enter the Gungeon.

I had actually had something like this I wanted to include in the game from the very start.  It was going to be an incredibility (so as to keep it optional).  I called it "Evil Otto".  Anyone that knows that name gets a million internet cookies.  The idea was similar to Lord of the Jammed:  Totally invincible, totally unstoppable, goes right through walls, and constantly adds it's own bullets to the mix... the only advantage you have over it is that it's slow.  The difference between Lord of the Jammed and my idea is that I was going to let mine SHOOT through the walls, too, not just walk through them.  The only reason it wasn't included (along with a number of other incredibilities that were on the list Chris had), if I recall, is that some coding issue would have taken too much time to deal with, at a time when we were getting too close to release.   

It's not the easiest thing to design/balance, but it's doable.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 01:01:05 PM by Misery »

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 04:21:46 PM »
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The AI Mech's level-up perks buff your enemies, not you.

That sounds great to me and is also a really unique mech style which would change the game up a lot.

This mech might actually be doable then, I think. The only potential issue might be the room respawning behaviour, although that might actually be workable as is.

The idea of a Spire Photon Lance sounds fine for a secondary weapon. Anybody got any thoughts on a main weapon? Or perhaps even a missile launcher?

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This one's viable, actually.  It's even been done before.  Look up "Lord of the Jammed" in Enter the Gungeon.

I had actually had something like this I wanted to include in the game from the very start.  It was going to be an incredibility (so as to keep it optional).  I called it "Evil Otto".  Anyone that knows that name gets a million internet cookies.  The idea was similar to Lord of the Jammed:  Totally invincible, totally unstoppable, goes right through walls, and constantly adds it's own bullets to the mix... the only advantage you have over it is that it's slow.  The difference between Lord of the Jammed and my idea is that I was going to let mine SHOOT through the walls, too, not just walk through them.  The only reason it wasn't included (along with a number of other incredibilities that were on the list Chris had), if I recall, is that some coding issue would have taken too much time to deal with, at a time when we were getting too close to release.   

It's not the easiest thing to design/balance, but it's doable.

Yeah, I know that reference, but only because think I remember you mentioning it way back -- no cookies for me, then! :) Something like that could work, yeah.


Online TheVampire100

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Re: AI War themed mech...?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 05:22:45 PM »
Anybody got any thoughts on a main weapon? Or perhaps even a missile launcher?
Missile Launcher could be Warhead Launcher instead. If it is possible, enemies not killed by it will be enraged (speed up? attack up?), similiar how Warheads in AI War increase AI Progress. Other alternative, make it similiar to the Paladin missile launcher but visual different and call it Neinzul Drone launcher. It would fit perfectly if the missiles simply would look like insects.
Main weapon... I have actually no clue. We could simply go with the standard minigun even if it sounds bland.