Author Topic: Augmented Alpha feedback  (Read 9633 times)

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2017, 12:56:00 PM »
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Wires are getting that changed.  In the testing I've been doing over the last few days, I'm finding that they dont work out as well as I'd originally hoped they would, so yeah, a change for them coming.

I added sound effects for the Wire. They seemed pretty good to me, but I didn't test them extensively.

Offline Ventifer

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2017, 08:20:33 PM »
Found a combo that might be overpowered. I got the energy weapon, overwhelming power I think is its name. It takes all enemies health down by half whenever you use it. Well it synergizes with Penumbra's perk where it does double damage with the first hit you do to an enemy. Each room was an instant room clear using this combo. I wasn't sure if the perk was supposed work with that energy weapon.

 It became more risky on the bosses of course without the dodge but oh well.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2017, 07:33:02 PM »
Found a combo that might be overpowered. I got the energy weapon, overwhelming power I think is its name. It takes all enemies health down by half whenever you use it. Well it synergizes with Penumbra's perk where it does double damage with the first hit you do to an enemy. Each room was an instant room clear using this combo. I wasn't sure if the perk was supposed work with that energy weapon.

 It became more risky on the bosses of course without the dodge but oh well.

Interesting combo...it's almost worth not nerfing that because it sounds fun, however it probably is a bit too much. I have a few solutions for that, I think. It would depend on how the First Blood perks are working out. Anybody got any thoughts on those? OP...or fine as is? The bonuses are currently double damage for each perk taken, which stack, so they may be a little OP. I'm not even sure if there should be two versions of that perk. One might be enough.

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2017, 11:17:22 PM »
It would depend on how the First Blood perks are working out. Anybody got any thoughts on those? OP...or fine as is? The bonuses are currently double damage for each perk taken, which stack, so they may be a little OP. I'm not even sure if there should be two versions of that perk. One might be enough.
Wow, those stack the damage? Ouch. I only ever got one at a time. Could getting both give a second boosted strike instead? Otherwise one might really be enough.

As for Decimating Power, I thought it was immune to damage modifications due to being a fixed %. Apparently not. Having it take 49% should prevent the room-wide instakill with one perk but I'm torn as to whether it's right or not to get rid of that specific combo. I don't think it works on bosses, so it's not a "I win" button per say. :-\


And here's a few things I noted lately:

-Penumbra & Roulette mechs: Missing their SprintWindSystem and initial missile refill. Refill doesn't affect Roulette with 5 missiles though.

-Healer enemy: Range too short to be effective. Also, suggestion: Remove huge wave visual effect, leaving only green/blue particles on allies getting healed to reduce visual clutter.

-MediWell consumable: Hurts the Warhog instead of healing. Warhog reduces damage by 1, with a minimum of 1 damage taken, including -1 attacks used for healing purposes. I'm guessing the Hardening Module will have the same problem.

-D18_HourGlass room: Lower door has 3 enemies in your face when you spawn.

-Alpha Ray weapon: Started leaving waves behind (like the Chromatic Array previously) after using range+ circuit. Same issue the Incineration Module used to have? -Bug report save included if needed.

Offline Ventifer

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2017, 03:07:08 AM »
-MediWell consumable: Hurts the Warhog instead of healing. Warhog reduces damage by 1, with a minimum of 1 damage taken, including -1 attacks used for healing purposes. I'm guessing the Hardening Module will have the same problem.

I wondered why my warhog run died in a healing well when I used it. Just assumed I was getting hit by something I couldn't see.

It would depend on how the First Blood perks are working out. Anybody got any thoughts on those? OP...or fine as is? The bonuses are currently double damage for each perk taken, which stack, so they may be a little OP. I'm not even sure if there should be two versions of that perk. One might be enough.

I've never gotten the second version of first blood. Getting it once makes the mech feel really strong. I could see that if you got it again that it would just be an instant kill of most normal enemies if you have any damage boosts. It does fit the theme for the mech though. Maybe have the second one extend the window of double damage from one attack to 3 seconds so that it could a bit more useful on bosses.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2017, 04:45:47 PM »
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Wow, those stack the damage? Ouch. I only ever got one at a time. Could getting both give a second boosted strike instead? Otherwise one might really be enough.

They could but the one perk would have to replace the other, rather than stacking. I'm thinking of just removing the part 2, at the moment. (checks something) Oh, actually Part 2 isn't even on the perk list for the Penumbra at the moment, so I'll just leave it like that.

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As for Decimating Power, I thought it was immune to damage modifications due to being a fixed %. Apparently not. Having it take 49% should prevent the room-wide instakill with one perk but I'm torn as to whether it's right or not to get rid of that specific combo. I don't think it works on bosses, so it's not a "I win" button per say. :-\

Not sure, either. Setting the power to 49% is the solution I would use, though, probably. I'll leave this one until we get more feedback perhaps.

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-Penumbra & Roulette mechs: Missing their SprintWindSystem and initial missile refill. Refill doesn't affect Roulette with 5 missiles though.

Good spot, fixed!

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-Healer enemy: Range too short to be effective. Also, suggestion: Remove huge wave visual effect, leaving only green/blue particles on allies getting healed to reduce visual clutter.

Hmm, I have actually buffed these slightly, but the buff is that the healing effect stays on the enemies for a bit longer rather than the range being boosted. Seems a shame to remove the particle, especially since it gives you a visual indicator of the range of the enemy. I'll probably leave this for the time being, since I've just introduced a new category for these type of buffer enemies. So, the rooms that you see them in now are going to be more tailored to the enemy, which might change how effective they are quite a bit. If there are still problems with them after the next build, then we can look into some more drastic changes.

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-MediWell consumable: Hurts the Warhog instead of healing. Warhog reduces damage by 1, with a minimum of 1 damage taken, including -1 attacks used for healing purposes. I'm guessing the Hardening Module will have the same problem.

Good spot, I've redid how those wells work now. The energy well was also bugged actually, it was recharging energy no matter where you were standing.

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-Alpha Ray weapon: Started leaving waves behind (like the Chromatic Array previously) after using range+ circuit. Same issue the Incineration Module used to have? -Bug report save included if needed.

Sort of fixed this. Boosting range in SR is a bit of a nightmare which causes screwy issues. It only really works on simple systems without bullet patterns, which is why I've tried to only allow the main weapons to get a range boost, but even then that makes things a bit restrictive on what main weapons you can create. We might just have to remove all the range boosters at some point, there's only 2 or 3 range boosting items in the game at the moment, and two of those are mysterious circuits, and that whole aspect needs a overhaul, anyway. In any case, the shots will just die on those weapons now without hanging around. You also can't boost them with range boosters, though.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 04:47:56 PM by Pepisolo »

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2017, 12:35:54 PM »
-Paladin mech: Lay on hands consumable, to make it reusable could you give one to the player when entering a new floor as a pickable on the ground?

-Out To Lunch perk: This one feels worth it now. Used it in quite a few runs lately for safety, even if it was at the price of XP/loot loss. It's nice to have an alternative to the on-hit perks of that level too.

-Phantom Blade & Ceremonial Blade: Problem with range+ circuit, same as Alpha Ray. (Starting to wonder if those range+ buffs are worth the trouble.)

-Eraser Blade: Can cancel bullets and destroy bombables? Seems unnecessarily OP. Bullet cancelling is already very powerful by itself.

-Blood Shard Refiner: Is it ever worth taking? 30 seconds seems so short, especially when permanent life leech upgrades are available (although at a lower magnitude).

-Effect floor panels: How are you supposed to know what they do before stepping on them (or even after in some cases)? Apart from using F3, I don't see how you could. I think there needs to be at least a way to tell which ones are good and which ones are bad just by looking at them. Icons on the panels themselves perhaps? A bit crude but effective.

-Getting gold floors but with regular enemies (and shopkeepers). Bug report save attached if needed.

-Since the expansion is getting close to its Beta, shouldn't there be an announcement on the Steam forums soon to keep players outside of the official forums in the loop? I wouldn't want the expansion to suffer a stealth release like the base game did.


That's all I got, unfortunately. I can't seem to do much in the way of gathering useful feedback on the current test version.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2017, 03:17:06 PM »
-Effect floor panels: How are you supposed to know what they do before stepping on them (or even after in some cases)? Apart from using F3, I don't see how you could. I think there needs to be at least a way to tell which ones are good and which ones are bad just by looking at them. Icons on the panels themselves perhaps? A bit crude but effective.

There's supposed to be different art for all of them.
Problem is, I think we're missing at least two variants. And I don't think the animation/combinatorics are set up yet (custom code).

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2017, 08:39:16 PM »
I can't fix anything at the moment, but I can respond to a few things.

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-Paladin mech: Lay on hands consumable, to make it reusable could you give one to the player when entering a new floor as a pickable on the ground?

I had considered that, but I wasn't too happy with that solution. It seems a little on the janky side.

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Out To Lunch perk: This one feels worth it now. Used it in quite a few runs lately for safety, even if it was at the price of XP/loot loss. It's nice to have an alternative to the on-hit perks of that level too.

Nice! Glad to hear that.

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-Phantom Blade & Ceremonial Blade: Problem with range+ circuit, same as Alpha Ray. (Starting to wonder if those range+ buffs are worth the trouble.)

Yeah, they're probably not worth the trouble. I might just remove the few range boosting effects in the game. There are currently only 2 or 3-ish, I think.

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-Eraser Blade: Can cancel bullets and destroy bombables? Seems unnecessarily OP. Bullet cancelling is already very powerful by itself.

I'll remove the destroying bombables effect, then. Sounds a bit too much, yeah.

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Blood Shard Refiner: Is it ever worth taking? 30 seconds seems so short, especially when permanent life leech upgrades are available (although at a lower magnitude).

Yeah, I was going to have a bunch of effects like this, a set of different shards, but I can actually only do one replacement in the engine currently, so I've kind of gone off the idea for the most part.  I'll probably convert that to something that gives you +1 health with each shard collected (or something like that), which was an idea Misery had.

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-Effect floor panels: How are you supposed to know what they do before stepping on them (or even after in some cases)? Apart from using F3, I don't see how you could. I think there needs to be at least a way to tell which ones are good and which ones are bad just by looking at them. Icons on the panels themselves perhaps? A bit crude but effective.

Yeah, these are completely borked at the moment. Sorry about that. I actually had to go into the engine code myself to start fixing those up -- desperate times call for desperate measures! -- and Goldenwolf is currently working on the aesthetics of those. So, they should be sorted soon...hopefully!

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-Getting gold floors but with regular enemies (and shopkeepers). Bug report save attached if needed.

Unfortunately, I believe this is because you are using a save game. I probably forgot to mention this in the alpha notes, but if you save a game and reload, the enemy pool switches back to the base game enemies. A Keith style fix is necessary for this, so for the moment we'll just have to test without creating save games.

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-Since the expansion is getting close to its Beta, shouldn't there be an announcement on the Steam forums soon to keep players outside of the official forums in the loop? I wouldn't want the expansion to suffer a stealth release like the base game did.

Probably, yeah. I can post something, but I don't think I can make an official announcement. I might just post something on there, or I'll write something up for Chris to turn into a proper announcement.

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That's all I got, unfortunately. I can't seem to do much in the way of gathering useful feedback on the current test version.

Yeah, sorry about that. It was probably a bad call of mine to wait for Misery's update before pushing out a new build (I should have enquired with Misery on an updated time estimate or something), however, since a bunch of work is almost complete we might as well wait a little more before pushing the next one now...hopefully we won't have to wait too long. On my end, most of my work has been on SFX and those bug fixes, plus a few engine tweaks. There were a few things that weren't actually seeding too, I think. The Sentry and The Reanimator boss.  With a bit of luck we may even have the new tile aesthetics for the next build. Thanks for your patience.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2017, 08:47:28 PM »
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There's supposed to be different art for all of them.
Problem is, I think we're missing at least two variants. And I don't think the animation/combinatorics are set up yet (custom code).

We should be able to set up the aesthetics of those without needing any extra engine work from Keith or Chris, I did manage to tweak a few things myself, though...somehow! New art will be needed from Blue for a few of them, though, yeah. Speaking of which, one other task I've done is that I've written up the art request, for the most part, for Blue. So, progress is being made...we're slowly getting to the finish line. Phew!

Indeed, after Misery's next update, that's going to be the expansion pretty much complete aside from needing the new art and some engine work from Keith, plus a Beta period, of course. Oh, and a bunch more rooms, but that's it...I think!

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2017, 09:56:23 PM »
Yeah, I was going to have a bunch of effects like this, a set of different shards, but I can actually only do one replacement in the engine currently, so I've kind of gone off the idea for the most part.  I'll probably convert that to something that gives you +1 health with each shard collected (or something like that), which was an idea Misery had.
Oh, like an alternative source of healing? That's pretty cool. I was gonna suggest that the shards could trigger a frenzy, but I think I like the healing option more. More of a game changer that way.

Unfortunately, I believe this is because you are using a save game. I probably forgot to mention this in the alpha notes, but if you save a game and reload, the enemy pool switches back to the base game enemies. A Keith style fix is necessary for this, so for the moment we'll just have to test without creating save games.
So that's what happened. Thanks for solving that mystery for me, I was really confused as to why it was doing that. :)

Indeed, after Misery's next update, that's going to be the expansion pretty much complete aside from needing the new art and some engine work from Keith, plus a Beta period, of course. Oh, and a bunch more rooms, but that's it...I think!
Talk about exciting! An entire expansion for SR. >D

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2017, 02:58:27 PM »
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Yeah, they're probably not worth the trouble. I might just remove the few range boosting effects in the game. There are currently only 2 or 3-ish, I think.

So, I removed the range boosting from the Railgun module and Destiny pickup -- and I think that's it unless I'm  missing something? (checks more) Of course, the mysterious circuits. I've just removed those two items. It's not a great loss, I don't think, given that the whole mysterious circuit stuff needs a big overhaul anyway. I think that's it now.

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I'll remove the destroying bombables effect, then. Sounds a bit too much, yeah.

Sorted.

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I'll probably convert that to something that gives you +1 health with each shard collected (or something like that), which was an idea Misery had.
I converted this item to a perk instead. It seemed more fitting there now that it wasn't a blood shard. I've added it to the Orbital perk tier. Extra Health Shard Refiner...I could do with a better name, though.

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Talk about exciting! An entire expansion for SR. >D

Yep! Not too much more work to do now. Phew!

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2017, 06:38:54 PM »
While experimenting with lower difficulties yesterday, I noticed a few things:

-Alpha mech: Using the wrong Keyprentice perk in its selection. (50% instead of +5 version)
Missing its healthgains multiplier for lower difficulties.
Starting HP at lower difficulties is weird. Instead of the standard double HP on easy and quadruple on very easy, it's double+1 and sextuple? Very weird.

-Paladin mech: Weird starting HP on lower difficulties for him too. Double+2 on easy and quadruple+6 on very easy.

-Penumbra mech: Multiplying max health (x3 on easy, x5 on very easy) on lower difficulties unlike all the other mechs. Changing it to adding max health instead would keep the mech more forgiving on lower difficulties without making the glass cannon aspect irrelevant after a single HP upgrade. I recommend keeping the same starting HP as now with +2 on easy and +4 on very easy.
Also missing its healthgains multiplier for lower difficulties.

-Trickshot (energy): Quite awesome when it works, but the shot tend to get cancelled too easily.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2017, 09:08:03 PM »
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-Alpha mech: Using the wrong Keyprentice perk in its selection. (50% instead of +5 version)

I've switched all the key perks to be of the + type rather than the % type for the latest build. The percentage ones weren't really working for me and I didn't want a mix of both, so all mechs should be using both versions now, so having the wrong one on there won't matter anymore...I think! Things should be good now, you can either get Keyprentice or Keymaster. +5 or +10 keys.

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Missing its healthgains multiplier for lower difficulties.

Fixed, thanks.

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Starting HP at lower difficulties is weird. Instead of the standard double HP on easy and quadruple on very easy, it's double+1 and sextuple? Very weird.

Yeah, I must've set those wrong...or something! Fixed. Oh, I've also removed any health decreases on Hard and Misery modes for mechs. I really don't think those are necessary. The extra difficulty is coming from a variety of other sources, the changes to HP don't really mean much, and they make things a bit inconsistent, like how many Sacrifice item rooms those mechs can grab. Seems like an overcomplication to me.

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-Paladin mech: Weird starting HP on lower difficulties for him too. Double+2 on easy and quadruple+6 on very easy.

Also fixed! :)

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Penumbra mech: Multiplying max health (x3 on easy, x5 on very easy) on lower difficulties unlike all the other mechs. Changing it to adding max health instead would keep the mech more forgiving on lower difficulties without making the glass cannon aspect irrelevant after a single HP upgrade. I recommend keeping the same starting HP as now with +2 on easy and +4 on very easy.
Also missing its healthgains multiplier for lower difficulties.

Switched to +2 and + 4 for the health. Fixed the HealthGain thing, too.

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-Trickshot (energy): Quite awesome when it works, but the shot tend to get cancelled too easily.

Do you mean via other shots, or by walls? If walls, then the richochet code is inconsistent, which is unfortunately something we probably can't fix. I've tried tweaking the wall_collision_reduction and stuff to improve that as much as possible, but there's only so much that can be done.

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Augmented Alpha feedback
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2017, 10:01:55 PM »
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-Trickshot (energy): Quite awesome when it works, but the shot tend to get cancelled too easily.

Do you mean via other shots, or by walls? If walls, then the richochet code is inconsistent, which is unfortunately something we probably can't fix. I've tried tweaking the wall_collision_reduction and stuff to improve that as much as possible, but there's only so much that can be done.
I was afraid that might be the case. The shots tend to immediately go splat when thrown at certain angles against walls and it gets expensive really fast energy-wise. If only the shot could be made immune to cancelling until its time was up. But I don't think you can do that, right?