Arcen Games

Games => Stars Beyond Reach... This World Is Mine => Topic started by: Pyrobow on March 05, 2016, 11:54:26 AM

Title: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Pyrobow on March 05, 2016, 11:54:26 AM
I only ask because everywhere I look it says march 2016 but there is little else on how development is going.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on March 06, 2016, 04:36:55 PM
Sorry about that!  I went in and corrected that to, for now, say June 2016.  Right now we're still reevaluating whether or not the game is possible at all to do in a fun way.  The approach that I was taking was fun but not fun enough to satisfy what we wanted to have happen. 

Right now Keith is going through a number of prototypes with a few very core alpha testers, and if we land on something that seems promising enough then that will be developed out further. 

How long that will take to complete will depend on what the prototype that works is, and so on.  There's also the possibility that we won't find a prototype that is sufficiently fun to pursue.  Which would be an enormous bummer for a whole lot of reasons, and that's putting it mildly.  But we're really trying to make sure that we do this in such a way that it's something we can be proud of, and not something that we just push out as "good enough."
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Pyrobow on March 06, 2016, 07:22:49 PM
Thanks for the info. I really hope you are able to make this game work.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on March 06, 2016, 09:43:39 PM
Sure thing -- and I appreciate it!
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: crazyroosterman on March 06, 2016, 09:45:14 PM
0_0 yikes the idea of you simply not finishing stars never occurred to me still I'm glad keiths on this since he seems to(at least gathering form our last barney) a good idea of what he wants to do no offence but when it was being developed before you kept changing your mind over and over again and now while that's great and if there was more time and funding available I'm sure you'd be able to find a super duper masterpiece eventually but obviously you simply don't.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on March 06, 2016, 09:50:08 PM
I wouldn't say that I was changing my mind over and over again.  That implies going back and forth between the same thing over and over again.  What I was doing was iterating on an initial prototype that had promise, but never really was living up to what I wanted.  Every so often after a certain amount of iterating, I'd drop some major components of the then-current iteration and proceed with a much-revised prototype that then went through many iterations itself. 

I got the general feeling of forward movement and felt like other people had that sense as well (though perhaps that was in my head).  However, it also felt like movement toward my ultimate goal was slowing down toward the end, and I couldn't think of any other major changes that would really get it substantially closer.  And it wasn't close enough.

It's the nature of research and development, when you're doing something new.  At this point we have a bunch of knowledge on what did and didn't work and why, and hopefully Keith can make something out of that plus his own ideas.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: crazyroosterman on March 06, 2016, 10:02:09 PM
I wouldn't say that I was changing my mind over and over again.  That implies going back and forth between the same thing over and over again.  What I was doing was iterating on an initial prototype that had promise, but never really was living up to what I wanted.  Every so often after a certain amount of iterating, I'd drop some major components of the then-current iteration and proceed with a much-revised prototype that then went through many iterations itself. 

I got the general feeling of forward movement and felt like other people had that sense as well (though perhaps that was in my head).  However, it also felt like movement toward my ultimate goal was slowing down toward the end, and I couldn't think of any other major changes that would really get it substantially closer.  And it wasn't close enough.

It's the nature of research and development, when you're doing something new.  At this point we have a bunch of knowledge on what did and didn't work and why, and hopefully Keith can make something out of that plus his own ideas.
fair enough I never really got to bothered about during testing(apart from the occasional worrying) since at the time I was un aware of the financial issue but though I look forward to seeing what Keith does with the game and that it achieves its full potential.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Pumpkin on March 07, 2016, 06:30:55 AM
I got the general feeling of forward movement and felt like other people had that sense as well (though perhaps that was in my head).
It was forward. Well, at least in two heads.

Nha, seriously, being a redshirt of the first days, I can assure you it was moving forward. Forward what, I can't tell :P but it was definitely improving with each step.

with a few very core alpha testers
Whoa. That sounds like a privilege. I wish I'll be an Arcen's "core" something, one day. Debating game mechanism on a project like that should be something! Both daunting and exciting, I guess.

Well, enough child-dreaming. I hope you "core" guys manage to keep it up in these dire times. I'm looking forward to see the result of this work.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on March 07, 2016, 02:57:14 PM
It's mainly a matter of some people that Keith personally knows really well at this point and that he knows are most likely to share his vision to some extent... but also be willing to respectfully stomp it to death if it isn't living up to what he and they would want.  For that sort of thing it's mainly a matter of personal comfort I suppose, and also really not wanting too many people at an early stage.  Honestly I've not even seen it except one passing glance super duper early in that process.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: donblas on March 07, 2016, 02:59:35 PM
Yeah if it graduates to the point us red-shirt "plebs" can test things, please at post here (or the beta forum).

I found the game interesting, but not captivating, last iteration. Optimizing building placement, handling tech tree, and dealing with an ever growing society was fun. Interactions with the other races not so much (felt like solitaire).

I have still have hope it can be made awesome.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on March 07, 2016, 03:03:36 PM
Cheers, we will definitely post here a lot if it's coming into the promising territory.  I'm with you in terms of how I was feeling about it last iteration.  Interesting but not captivating.  Hard to say that about one's own work without emotion, but now I'm two projects away from it so that is easier.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: crazyroosterman on March 07, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
yes please do its really weird for me thinking that a game I tested for so long is changing without having a clue really how.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Jabberwok on April 25, 2016, 01:11:19 AM
Please please please release this game. SR is great, and I'm excited about the raptor game, but every time I see those beautiful hex grid screenshots, a little orgasmic jolt reminds me how amazing this could be.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on April 25, 2016, 08:39:48 AM
Fingers, fingers crossed...  :-[
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Mánagarmr on April 25, 2016, 10:03:53 AM
I'm still fascinated about how this game plays. I'm probably one of few who have not tested it yet ^^
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: eRe4s3r on April 26, 2016, 07:58:07 PM
I'm still fascinated about how this game plays. I'm probably one of few who have not tested it yet ^^

Which allows you to have a proper first impression when/if you become tester ;P
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Mánagarmr on April 28, 2016, 10:03:25 AM
I'm still fascinated about how this game plays. I'm probably one of few who have not tested it yet ^^

Which allows you to have a proper first impression when/if you become tester ;P
I guess that's true. :)
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Wingflier on May 03, 2016, 03:39:30 AM
I saw the exchange in the comments section of Chris' first Release Raptor blog post. That guy was awfully rude so kudos to you for responding to him in such a polite and honest way.

Tbh, I didn't really expect this game to potentially never be released either. It held so much promise for you guys, and the "Let's Play Blogs" from last Winter made it seem like it was coming along so smoothly, even if it did have a few rough edges to iron out.

I guess my question is, what happened? It seems like you guys hit a giant obstacle and it threw the entire project off track. I know one obstacle was the release date, which you were afraid the game wouldn't be polished enough for. But now it sounds like it was more than just a polish problem, it's as if there were certain mechanics that were so problematic they were preventing the game from being enjoyable. Last thing I remember you guys working on before the break was the diplomacy thing, and maybe that's where everything got stuffed up? I had mentioned before in the forums that I've never seen a 4X handle diplomacy in an interesting or satisfactory way, so if that were a major barrier, I guess I would understand.

Anyway, I don't mean to pry I just want to understand why the project went from nearly completed last year to a future of uncertainty today. I say this as a person who never actually got to test the game myself, I think I signed up just days before the next wave of beta keys were about to go out. From what I remember most the beta testers were really enjoying it at the time and I was excited to try it.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Pumpkin on May 03, 2016, 04:06:24 AM
I didn't see the blog's reply before I read your post, Wingflier. I never go back to a blog post to see if there's answers, because there's no "new" tag like in the forum.

I'd like to hear Keith on how he's doing with SBR. If Arcen now has two pipelines, it would be a bit confusing to have two lines of updates/devblog, but I bet it would be interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Misery on May 04, 2016, 11:34:18 PM
I saw the exchange in the comments section of Chris' first Release Raptor blog post. That guy was awfully rude so kudos to you for responding to him in such a polite and honest way.

Tbh, I didn't really expect this game to potentially never be released either. It held so much promise for you guys, and the "Let's Play Blogs" from last Winter made it seem like it was coming along so smoothly, even if it did have a few rough edges to iron out.

I guess my question is, what happened? It seems like you guys hit a giant obstacle and it threw the entire project off track. I know one obstacle was the release date, which you were afraid the game wouldn't be polished enough for. But now it sounds like it was more than just a polish problem, it's as if there were certain mechanics that were so problematic they were preventing the game from being enjoyable. Last thing I remember you guys working on before the break was the diplomacy thing, and maybe that's where everything got stuffed up? I had mentioned before in the forums that I've never seen a 4X handle diplomacy in an interesting or satisfactory way, so if that were a major barrier, I guess I would understand.

Anyway, I don't mean to pry I just want to understand why the project went from nearly completed last year to a future of uncertainty today. I say this as a person who never actually got to test the game myself, I think I signed up just days before the next wave of beta keys were about to go out. From what I remember most the beta testers were really enjoying it at the time and I was excited to try it.

I certainly cant speak for the devs, but.... to me, it wasn't so much the release date, it's moreso that the gameplay just.... wasn't working out.

It's very hard to explain, but it reminds me of TLF's original combat model.   When it was RTS-ish space fights, instead of the turn-based shmup thing it later became.  On paper, the RTS bit sounded bloody perfect.  But in the end, it just... didn't... work.  I still remember doing a long ranty post about my impressions of that during development.

With that game, of course, the combat model was later changed (twice).  And it worked out really well in the end.  I seem to recall that being tried with Stars Beyond Reach, but the new stuff STILL just didn't work.  And it was kinda hard to fully grasp why that was (and I'm having trouble remembering the details).

I'd really, really like to see the project to succeed.  So many 4X games always seem so interesting to me, but then they get a lot of things wrong and... I dunno, they don't end up being what I'd hoped.  But a 4X from Arcen, now THAT could be different.   Was the same way with the RTS genre for me, a lot of the games in that genre seriously never seem to be about strategy but moreso about micro and clicking fast.  And then I found AI War, and THAT did the trick and is one I keep coming back to.

So it's certainly a bit frustrating to see what's happening with this game.  I'm hoping it works out in the end, I think there's a lot of potential here.   

I will say one thing though:  Kudos to Chris & Keith for NOT releasing it in that state.  Many other developers would have just done it ANYWAY (even if it wasn't cost reasons pushing them to do so).  As opposed to making sure that it's fun first.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on May 05, 2016, 09:47:40 AM
There's a further discussion here as of this morning: http://arcengames.com/announcing-in-case-of-emergency-release-raptor/#comment-2389

Quote from: gnodab
You know, I never thought I’d say it, but maybe Early Access/an open beta would benefit SBR?
As much as I liked SR and am looking forward to Raptor, I can’t help but feel they are mere distractions, while we wait for SBR. I wasn’t this excited for a game in a long time. Maybe your perception of the game is just so tainted by burning out on it that you exaggerate its flaws and getting a lot of outside perspectives could recalibrate your own? Or maybe I am just unwilling to accept that the stars are beyond reach? :(

Me: Cheers — it’s a possibility. The main thing is that the game has never been in a finished, “able to really play all the way through” state. We’ve had the military and citybuilding aspects there, but getting in fun and engaging trade and politics or whatnot for non-military interactions has never passed the prototype stage. Each version of that we did was always underwhelming enough that people just kept staying military.

There’s a lot about the game I love, but I’m not the one to work on it anymore. If Keith feels like he can make it work, then we’ll go ahead with it. If not… then perhaps there’s someone else who might want to take up the mantle of this particular game, we’ll see. Either way, though I’ve contributed a lot to this game (as have a lot of other people), I can’t think of anything more to add to it at this point from my perspective. Someone else would look at it a different way, I’m sure.

The problem with Early Access is that once we do that sort of thing, we’ve taken your money and are committed to it. So we can’t go “oh, nevermind, that actually was a bad idea and we’ll stop development now to avoid bleeding money while we finish something unsatisfactory.” We just have to instead rush it out as fast as possible to get it to a state that we can call done, to cut our losses while at the same time hopefully minimizing fallout in our reputation with you. You’ve seen other developers do this, and it’s not because they are bad people — it’s the situation they put themselves in, accidentally. I don’t want to put myself in that situation.

Quote
elevator music

There were a couple of other posts on there, too, so feel free to scroll up in that comment chain, which is all about SBR.

I'd like to hear Keith on how he's doing with SBR. If Arcen now has two pipelines, it would be a bit confusing to have two lines of updates/devblog, but I bet it would be interesting nonetheless.

We will probably have two or three lines of devblog coming up before too long.  The Starward Rogue crew of Freaking Volunteers(tm) (Misery included) will likely be writing some stuff about the work they're doing there.  Keith is not the long public writing sort, so we'll see on that.  I've had periodic updates from him, basically every time something major changes or a model fails or succeeds.

Right now there's basically two more subsystems to be coded out, and if they work then the project probably goes ahead, and if not then the project probably gets iced.  Or turned over to someone else if someone else has ideas that I like the sound of, and we can come to some sort of arrangement.  I agree that I don't want to see this project die.  But I'd rather us all have fond wistful memories of what it could have been rather than a putrid stink of "oh gosh that's what it was and it was not good."

In terms of Keith, he's currently out of the office on family matters (all good things), and so won't be around much at all for... a few weeks at least, I'd guess, but it's hard to say exactly.

I saw the exchange in the comments section of Chris' first Release Raptor blog post. That guy was awfully rude so kudos to you for responding to him in such a polite and honest way.

I appreciate it.  That was a frustrating comment, yeah.

Tbh, I didn't really expect this game to potentially never be released either. It held so much promise for you guys, and the "Let's Play Blogs" from last Winter made it seem like it was coming along so smoothly, even if it did have a few rough edges to iron out.

I guess my question is, what happened? It seems like you guys hit a giant obstacle and it threw the entire project off track. I know one obstacle was the release date, which you were afraid the game wouldn't be polished enough for. But now it sounds like it was more than just a polish problem, it's as if there were certain mechanics that were so problematic they were preventing the game from being enjoyable. Last thing I remember you guys working on before the break was the diplomacy thing, and maybe that's where everything got stuffed up? I had mentioned before in the forums that I've never seen a 4X handle diplomacy in an interesting or satisfactory way, so if that were a major barrier, I guess I would understand.

You pretty much nailed it right there.  I think that the citybuilding and combat came a long way since Misery looked at it last (so far as I know), and I was pretty happy with that in the main.  Even so, there were some unintuitive things about it that bugged me with the combat in particular.

The diplomacy and so forth was really the big sticking point, and just kept dragging out.  I thought that I'd figured out a solution to that back in the time period of those blog posts, and I was really pleased with how that bit was shaping up.  I felt like it needed more meat on its bones to not be so repetitive, but that otherwise it was creating a feeling of a living world.

Turns out that was... sort of true.  Even with a lot of content, there was still a ton of stuff happening ALL THE TIME.  And each turn it was like "I have to read these 12 new messages, ugh."  That surprised me.  Not that other people had that reaction, but that I personally did.  The information overload of stuff I had to wade through in order to make it feel thematic really just didn't work for me.  Being ABLE to dig into that sort of thing is great, and I love that about Dwarf Fortress, but the way this design panned out it made you HAVE to do that.  Blah.

Anyway, I don't mean to pry I just want to understand why the project went from nearly completed last year to a future of uncertainty today. I say this as a person who never actually got to test the game myself, I think I signed up just days before the next wave of beta keys were about to go out. From what I remember most the beta testers were really enjoying it at the time and I was excited to try it.

I think a lot of the testers were enjoying what it could be, and what it almost was.  The problem was, I was hitting a brick wall that was kind of fatal.  I think the testers were being more forgiving than they otherwise would because they had faith I would overcome that wall.  I tried a number of things for months, and it just was not a wall I could get past.

Keith and I have very different approaches to the same concept, and so back in February after Starward Rogue came out he moved on to a heavy reworking of SBR.  He basically gutted the entire game and started over from scratch in terms of mechanics, simply keeping the graphics but making all the things even mean completely different things.  What the game was before and what it is now are radically different to the point that it would be like saying Settlers is the same as Civilization.  The premise is the same in the main, yeah, but how you go about everything is different.

His earliest designs were based on ideas from Colonization, whereas I was drawing more from SimCity and Civilization.  He quickly found out that wasn't working out so hot, though, so he's gone through some complete revisions of his complete revisions.  Originally he was only going to spend about a month and a half to find out for sure if this was a viable product he could make, but instead it's been three.  A few more weeks after he's back around, and there will be the do-or-die point, given that this is already 2x over budget in the yet-again-rework phase.

And from there, if that happens... I don't know.  A couple of weeks ago he was still really undecided, but basically was giving it 50/50 odds of going either way.

I will say one thing though:  Kudos to Chris & Keith for NOT releasing it in that state.  Many other developers would have just done it ANYWAY (even if it wasn't cost reasons pushing them to do so).  As opposed to making sure that it's fun first.

I do appreciate it, thanks for that.  If Keith can't make this work, then I hope to find someone else who can in some way.  I'd ultimately rather have some form of game result from this and be a fun thing, and maybe start to recoup at least some of the $420k+ I spent on this, than just mothball it forever.  But I also can't just fling more and more money at this forever, and from a personal stance I'm out of ideas on this particular game.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: crazyroosterman on May 05, 2016, 05:37:41 PM
lots o' stuff
1 if it does end up coming to that stars gets to a point were its open for testers again I think it would be fascinating to see how its changed

2 what is this rude comment that keeps getting referred to? I Most Certainly Have looked in the dev blogs and I cant find anything that even remotely references stars unless it was deleted of course

3 in the worst case scenario that this game is simply never finished what's going to happen to the lore that was planned for it? will it be injected in to a future title?.

Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on May 05, 2016, 07:09:30 PM
1 if it does end up coming to that stars gets to a point were its open for testers again I think it would be fascinating to see how its changed

For sure.  Even I haven't seen it in over a month!  Ptarth and a few others know now, I think, but I'm not sure who all.

2 what is this rude comment that keeps getting referred to? I Most Certainly Have looked in the dev blogs and I cant find anything that even remotely references stars unless it was deleted of course

Not a big thing. Just someone's response to the raptor game announcement basically being "why don't you finish SBR first" in kind of a rude-sounding wording.

3 in the worst case scenario that this game is simply never finished what's going to happen to the lore that was planned for it? will it be injected in to a future title?.

That will be considered canonical either way.  Of course you have no idea what it is, but it's super cool.  So... we'll work it into some other games somehow or other.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: crazyroosterman on May 05, 2016, 07:16:46 PM
1 if it does end up coming to that stars gets to a point were its open for testers again I think it would be fascinating to see how its changed

For sure.  Even I haven't seen it in over a month!  Ptarth and a few others know now, I think, but I'm not sure who all.

2 what is this rude comment that keeps getting referred to? I Most Certainly Have looked in the dev blogs and I cant find anything that even remotely references stars unless it was deleted of course

Not a big thing. Just someone's response to the raptor game announcement basically being "why don't you finish SBR first" in kind of a rude-sounding wording.

3 in the worst case scenario that this game is simply never finished what's going to happen to the lore that was planned for it? will it be injected in to a future title?.

That will be considered canonical either way.  Of course you have no idea what it is, but it's super cool.  So... we'll work it into some other games somehow or other.
1 doesn't surprise ptarth seems to know everything.

2 really? I thought it was blatantly obvious why but I guess some people are just silly

3 awesome!.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: ptarth on May 08, 2016, 02:23:44 AM
Writing documents for public consumption is a time consuming process that requires delicacy, effort, and skill. It's a lot like teaching, business presentations, and public speaking all combined into one. Internal construction documents and discussions, on the other hand, are not for the faint of heart. Not because they are wrong, bad, or unclean, but because they require time, effort, context, and knowledge to understand. Lacking any of those, for whatever reason (good, bad, ill-will, running low on time, typos, etc), leads to misunderstandings, and those misunderstandings can lead to... a belief that rhinoceroses mounted on a tortoise are supporting the world, instead of elephants, as is proper. Due to this, I haven't commented yet on any of the SBR threads, however, I suppose now is warranted due to my name being called three times. However, I warn you, you won't like what I have to say for various reasons.

With that as a caveat, the following is my bulleted list summary of SBR v2016:


Please form a lynch mob for SBR to the right. The SR lynch mob is formed on the left, and I'd hate to get the two mixed up. :P
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on May 09, 2016, 09:35:48 AM
Well, that certainly has ME hopeful. :)
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: ElOhTeeBee on May 09, 2016, 10:22:42 AM
Neat. Good news hopefully incoming.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Pumpkin on May 10, 2016, 02:54:36 AM
Does that mean SBR is pulling itself out of the freezing trap?
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on May 10, 2016, 08:38:10 AM
Does that mean SBR is pulling itself out of the freezing trap?

For the most part that is ultimately going to be Keith's decision.  At any rate, he and I both have to agree we want to go forward with it, and I'm not going to say yes unless he wants to first.  It has to meet the bar set by the designer if it's to have any heart and soul in it.  Last I heard he was giving it 50/50 odds, which is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: tbrass on May 13, 2016, 04:00:05 AM
High hopes, Chris. I know this has been a real challenge for you & Keith. (not to mention the whole arcen-family).

As an aside, thank you for sharing your struggles with SBR & the impact it had on you, personally and professionally.
The human tendency is to obfuscate the difficulties we face, and the business modus operandi is to obfuscate the sausage making.
And as long as I have followed you, you have bucked both of these trends. Kudos, and thank you!

Your radical honesty reminded me of the CV of failure that made the rounds a few weeks back. Princeton prof,
incredibly accomplished, sought to remind his students that everyone fails some of the time and wrote up
a CV of the accolades and opportunities he didn't achieve:
https://www.princeton.edu/~joha/Johannes_Haushofer_CV_of_Failures.pdf

I'm excited to (maybe) begin testing SBR again at some point & hope that Keith's coin flip turns out positive.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on May 16, 2016, 10:38:11 AM
Cheers, I appreciate it.  And that's CV of Failures is absolutely awesome.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Jabberwok on July 27, 2016, 08:24:40 PM
I haven't played it, of course, but from the screenshots, SBR seems to be the best-looking game you guys have made. [Starward Rogue also seemed to be a step in the right direction, visually.] And a hex-based 4X strategy game just feels like it would really play to Arcen's strengths. I hope you guys are able to release it.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Matruchus on August 29, 2016, 03:36:40 AM
Its a long time since there was an update on this so I'm wondering if this game is going to happen? I'm thrilled about the upcoming Ai War 2 but still would love to see this too. Still my most wanted game from 2015 and 2016 8)
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: wwwhhattt on August 29, 2016, 06:12:52 AM
From what I understand (which might be totally wrong) someone is still working on it, but nobody knows when/if it will be finished.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on August 29, 2016, 09:01:54 AM
Keith has been working on this, but at the moment it's going to be on hold for AI War 2.  It's not ideal, but the other is closer to done in some respects.  Conceptually with AI War 2 we have a model that works (AI War 1), and that's already a huge leap ahead of this one. ;)
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: Steelpoint on August 29, 2016, 09:13:16 AM
I've been quite interested in this game for a very long time, way back when it was first announced. Either way I'm confident it'll come out eventually, with my only perpetual disappointment being there being no Human faction, but I say that for any game.

What I find more surprising is the statement above that AI War 2/Remaster/Insert Title is more ahead of Stars Beyond Reach, even if just conceptually.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on August 29, 2016, 09:23:47 AM
What I find more surprising is the statement above that AI War 2/Remaster/Insert Title is more ahead of Stars Beyond Reach, even if just conceptually.

The reason there is that we've had to reinvent SBR so many times that we keep burning it to the ground and building it back up.  Like the town of Berk: "It's been here for seven generations, but every single building is new."

We've been struggling to find the core fun gameplay loop in SBR, and that's why it has taken so long.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 29, 2016, 09:51:03 AM
What I find more surprising is the statement above that AI War 2/Remaster/Insert Title is more ahead of Stars Beyond Reach, even if just conceptually.

The reason there is that we've had to reinvent SBR so many times that we keep burning it to the ground and building it back up.  Like the town of Berk: "It's been here for seven generations, but every single building is new."

We've been struggling to find the core fun gameplay loop in SBR, and that's why it has taken so long.

If SBR is on hold aka "dead" anyway, then why not just release what you got here on the forum to get some proper feedback and conceptual discussion going? As long as you are prepared for us to rip it apart that is. (We got plenty of 4x fanatics here, me included)

I feel like if you let this slink behind AI War 2 it will never release, and that would be a huge shame.

Doubt you would go for it, but it is worth a try to ask...
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on August 29, 2016, 10:01:37 AM
You're assuming that we want feedback right now, which we do not.  ;D

1. If we were to solicit feedback on a game that we don't have any intention of working on anytime soon, then we either ignore your feedback or get sucked into long discussions that have literally no point in the short-term but which eat up valuable man-hours.

2. If we were to solicit feedback and actually intend to do something based on it, then that wouldn't be delaying SBR at all, that would just be plunging ahead. ;)

3. In general that also assumes that the game is in a feedback-ready state, which it is presently not.  Keith has been working with a few forum folks (ptarth is one) to build a completely new game in the bombed-out shell of what mine was.  In order for you to make meaningful feedback, there has to be a certain amount of clarity and content there.  He's been developing out some bits that seem promising, but they are not ready to be shown in general yet.

4. In a very broad sense, we need to focus in order to get things done.  So having in-depth discussions (or even reading in-depth discussions) of a game we're not working on is a big distraction from a game we are working on.

5. I am pretty sure that SBR will see its day in the sun, but either way that won't be affected by AI War 2.  I don't think about time quite like you seem to imply.  The distance from a project doesn't affect the likelihood of my doing it.  Perhaps this is a bad example considering how poorly Shattered Haven was recieved, but that was a game I spent almost a year on in 2008 (before AI War 1), and then came back and happily finished in 2013.  I would rather have a good version of SBR in 2017, 2018 or even 2019 rather than a half-baked version in 2016.

6. Either way there is no real incentive for me to just throw it away completely, because I have an enormous financial investment in it.  I don't wish to mess with the quality of that game for short-term gains in exchange for long-term quality or whatever, though.
Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: ptarth on August 29, 2016, 10:26:11 AM
Many of us here on the forum have a problem-solving focus, which means that if we see something wrong/inefficient/not quite right, we want to fix it (Go team!). However, in this case, it isn't isolated mechanisms need adjustment, it is that entire systems, and everything they impact, are being swapped out. This leads to problems in communication, because the bandwidth to discuss these problems is huge and problems in parsing as that volume of incoming and outgoing communication has to be parsed. To extend the analogy, we have a massive 2 core processor (that doesn't hyperthread) and a 2400 baud modem. Hooking this bad boy up to wikipedia and trying to download it all, sounds like a great idea, but...

Title: Re: Is there an exact release date yet?
Post by: x4000 on August 29, 2016, 12:09:37 PM
That is an extremely apt analogy. :)