Arcen Games

Games => Skyward Collapse => Topic started by: x4000 on August 16, 2013, 10:37:10 AM

Title: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 16, 2013, 10:37:10 AM
Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2013/08/skyward-collapse-1900-beta-release.html

If you've not yet read about the general changes in the 1.4 beta line, now is a good time to do so. It's expected that we'll stay in beta for the new features until we release the 2.0 version of the game in late August, alongside the new Nihon no Mura expansion.  A lot is different in the base game since 1.4, so we want to make sure and give this time to mature before we put this out to everyone.

This one is pretty substantial, and completes the list of implemented features so far for the new expansion.  Thus this release is the first "release candidate," which basically means we're into fine-tuning-only mode until this launches next Wednesday the 21st.

So what's new here?

Woes
There are nine new woes, all specific to things in the expansion.

People have been wanting bandit gods for a while, and one of these provides that.  The bandit gods don't use powers or their creatures, as I think that would be overkill, but it's still cool to see those running around.

Another woe lets you have six gods between your two factions, rather than the usual four, so that's pretty cool.

There are also two new catastrophic woes, which is particularly good because that helps to dilute the relatively small pool of the ones that were there before.

God-Related Creatures
So as Misery has pointed out, some of the Japanese god-related mythos are not things you would really want to inflict on yourself.  We designed those before we really had a good sense of how strong the Japanese faction would be: originally they were going to be kind of weaker, and so you'd need to use these creatures to make up the difference.  As the design evolved, the Japanese became super strong, and thus the designs of these creatures -- which fun and varied -- started falling into "why would I do that to myself" territory.

The solution to this was to go back to one of the earlier design ideas that we started with for the Japanese gods in the first place: having them produce these creatures directly, in addition to you being able to place them at well.  This is only so interesting if the god is producing them out of himself/herself, though, because it gets semi-predictable.  That's one reason why the idea was previously scrapped.

In the new implementation in this version, the creatures from the gods come out of the town centers of the Japanese.  This has important strategic ramifications, because it makes Large Towns a lot more important to the Japanese faction if they don't want to trample their opponents.

Hamlet Stuff
There were a lot of changes made here based again on feedback from Misery (definitely the allstar of feedback for this expansion, followed by nas1m).

Overall the changes in this version have you playing from the entire hamlet-building-queue now, and sometimes having to take some negative points temporarily in order to get a better position later. This is a big improvement in how strategic the Idyll mode plays out.

Also, slums are really becoming more and more of an interesting problem (in a good way, as that is supposed to be their role).  They are a powerful positive force in terms of running out civilians that are blocking you, but then they are really negative in terms of points on some placements later.  Those are tricky, and also encourage playing low in the queue on a combo to place a slums and then replace the slums.

I don't know that the Hamlets mechanic is 100% to where it needs to be, and I imagine it may evolve somewhat over months or years (as with many of the best AI War mechanics, sometimes these things just take time).  But I'm really pleased with where it is now, and think it's really fun.


Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have any version of the game.  When you  launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Misery on August 16, 2013, 11:14:01 AM
Oh geez, even more stuff already...!  And my name on too many things.   I do hope I havent broken anything or caused stuff to randomly burst into flames.

The new woes sound pretty awesome.  And it's good to see that the god units are still usable by the player directly, as despite their wonkyness they can still have uses, even if they're super-situational.  And some are just good all around.  Various ones could still use their costs lowered.


As for the auto-spawn bit, that's an interesting solution to it....  and it fits with the theme.  though I'm thinking it might be a better idea to not have them be EVERY turn, maybe put them on some sort of timer, like every 3 or 4 turns (maybe like how Demonaica's castle timer worked, where it was displayed?  Maybe even point out WHICH unit is coming from which town so the player can prepare if need be).   Every single turn works for the bandits because both factions attack them, and because their bases arent all that hard to pop (and there's not exactly any trouble to the player if you pop ALL of them, aside from that there'll be more red VS blue suddenly).   And even then some of those bandit myth units can be really nasty.    The god units though can be pretty darn hard to kill, depending on which one it is.  And of course some of them do things like corrupt the landscape, like that guy that leaves lakes everywhere.   And the Japanese seem to need more towns in general than the others.... I ended up with about 12 towns on each side in my current game, because in order for the Japanese to have the resources necessary to use all of their various options and myth units to combat bandits and woes they need lots of stuffs.   Even 6 towns though could be too much if they're making giant walking nightmares every turn.    Also the normal myth units may go unused if there's already tons of these big guys running around as it is.     All in all it might be a bit too much chaos in this current implementation.

It also occurs to me that it'd force alot of culture use.

Some units may also be best off having less chance of spawning than others.  Something like a Ho-oh or however it's spelled appearing too often could blow up the world mostly regardless of the player's actions, unless they used some sort of total annihilation type effect.  Not that they shouldnt appear at all though, that wouldnt be too interesting, heh. 

That's initial thoughts on that.   I dont have time to give it a try right now though;  I'll have a full go at it later tonight and see what happens!

Also the changes to the Hamlet stuffs sound pretty great!  Do you guys intend on adding more bits to this mechanic in later expansions as well?  It's a very interesting mechanic with lots of depth, I think it's one of the best additions to the game thus far.


....and release candidate already?    Bah, somehow it's the middle of August already, isnt it....

Whole thing is coming along great so far though, one way or another.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 16, 2013, 12:09:12 PM
Oh geez, even more stuff already...!  And my name on too many things.   I do hope I havent broken anything or caused stuff to randomly burst into flames.

All of those things have my and often Josh's names on them implicitly, too.  None of that stuff was done blindly, so it's all stuff we approved of and thought was a good idea, too.  You shouldn't worry!

The new woes sound pretty awesome.  And it's good to see that the god units are still usable by the player directly, as despite their wonkyness they can still have uses, even if they're super-situational.  And some are just good all around.  Various ones could still use their costs lowered.

Great!  And yeah, we're still adjusting the costs there, no worries. :)

As for the auto-spawn bit, that's an interesting solution to it....  and it fits with the theme.  though I'm thinking it might be a better idea to not have them be EVERY turn, maybe put them on some sort of timer, like every 3 or 4 turns (maybe like how Demonaica's castle timer worked, where it was displayed?  Maybe even point out WHICH unit is coming from which town so the player can prepare if need be).   Every single turn works for the bandits because both factions attack them, and because their bases arent all that hard to pop (and there's not exactly any trouble to the player if you pop ALL of them, aside from that there'll be more red VS blue suddenly).   And even then some of those bandit myth units can be really nasty.    The god units though can be pretty darn hard to kill, depending on which one it is.  And of course some of them do things like corrupt the landscape, like that guy that leaves lakes everywhere.   And the Japanese seem to need more towns in general than the others.... I ended up with about 12 towns on each side in my current game, because in order for the Japanese to have the resources necessary to use all of their various options and myth units to combat bandits and woes they need lots of stuffs.   Even 6 towns though could be too much if they're making giant walking nightmares every turn.    Also the normal myth units may go unused if there's already tons of these big guys running around as it is.     All in all it might be a bit too much chaos in this current implementation.

We'll see, I suppose.  A timer can certainly be added if that seems like the case, although I'm not keen on showing which unit is coming next (not much room for that, and I'd rather not precalculate it as the current gods on the map affect this, etc).  At the moment this does indeed work in favor of the bandits, however it also really works in favor of the Japanese as well, which is a problem -- so the Japanese kind of take the place of the bandits as the chief aggressors!  It's very interesting actually, from what I've played of it.  But if the feedback is that it's too much once folks are playing with it in their games, I can certainly tone that down.

Some units may also be best off having less chance of spawning than others.  Something like a Ho-oh or however it's spelled appearing too often could blow up the world mostly regardless of the player's actions, unless they used some sort of total annihilation type effect.  Not that they shouldnt appear at all though, that wouldnt be too interesting, heh.

Well, making sure you can clear those fast would be good, heh.  I might need to adjust their ability, not sure.  But they actually could be useful because they can cut off a Japanese town from its enemies, which if you think about it would solve a lot of the aggression problems!

Also the changes to the Hamlet stuffs sound pretty great!  Do you guys intend on adding more bits to this mechanic in later expansions as well?  It's a very interesting mechanic with lots of depth, I think it's one of the best additions to the game thus far.

Thank you, glad to hear it. :)  In terms of the hamlets mechanic being extended... it's certainly a possibility, though I don't know what that would be exactly.  At this point.  Right now we've basically made it as complete as possible.  But the way this is set up, we certainly could extend that in future expansions.  You'd have to have this expansion for the hamlet-related goodies from any future expansion to work, though.  Normally I try to avoid cross-requirements like that in expansions, but in that case the hamlet stuff just wouldn't activate if you had expansion 2 but not expansion 1 or whatever.

....and release candidate already?    Bah, somehow it's the middle of August already, isnt it....

Whole thing is coming along great so far though, one way or another.

Thanks again for the kind words, and yeah time is flying! :)
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 16, 2013, 12:51:05 PM
Wow. A honorable mention *in the blogpost*...
I feel like a very special person now. Thanks ;D!

I will definitely dig into the release candidate sometime this weekend - and keep it focused on the hamlets.
Misery has the myth units and cost stuff covered just fine I think :P.

Cheers for another successful expansion!
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 16, 2013, 12:56:52 PM
Wow. A honorable mention *in the blogpost*...
I feel like a very special person now. Thanks ;D!

You guys have been really my prime source of feedback, so you definitely deserve it!

I will definitely dig into the release candidate sometime this weekend - and keep it focused on the hamlets.
Misery has the myth units and cost stuff covered just fine I think :P.

Cheers for another successful expansion!

Cheers, I appreciate it! :)
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 16, 2013, 01:02:16 PM
A question that just occurred to me (being the addict I am):
Will there be fresh achievements in the expansion (you have listed none in the other thread) ;D?
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 16, 2013, 01:05:44 PM
Not at this time, but we probably will go back and add them later.  To be honest, we're really scrambling to get ready for PAX prime, where we're supposed to be showing Bionic, which isn't ready for that quite yet. ;)
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 16, 2013, 02:28:40 PM
Not at this time, but we probably will go back and add them later.  To be honest, we're really scrambling to get ready for PAX prime, where we're supposed to be showing Bionic, which isn't ready for that quite yet. ;)
Now this definitely does have priority over some petty achievements ;).
Get it on!
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Misery on August 17, 2013, 08:42:03 AM
Okay, more feedback for this most recent update!


Firstly, large towns, these are pretty useful!  Almost too useful.  One thing I ran into with the Japanese in partiuclar:  massive resource bloating.  I have TWO active towns with them, one being a big one, after letting two others fall, and I didn't have more than 3 active at once at any point.   I've been using Komainus, which cost diamond, and a couple of the tokens that cost jewelery.   AND I used the Greek god token that gives 1/3rd of the stash to them.   I still have 187 diamonds.  .....that's alot of diamonds.  Not to mention that the large town is spitting out huge amounts of currency for no apparent reason.   Have lots of incense and clay as well (lots of space + artist).

On top of that, there hasnt been a whole lot of reason at all to use much in the way of military units for these guys.  Granted, they've sorta been that way from the start, where you dont use nearly as many production buildings lest they become overwhelming, but still, it does lead to loads of excess resources.  The stream of myth units from the cities furthers this.   Some of those are difficult indeed to get rid of, like the Tanuki, who pretty much requires myth units summoned JUST to fight it.   Ended up using Super Smite to stomp those things a few times already, and I'm not that far into the second age yet.  The Japanese often also do not have to dedicate any space to moon/sun buildings, depending on which gods appeared for them and how useful or not those units are.... and even then, if there are useful ones, they're bound to pop outta the cities sooner rather than later, so there's not much reason to use them.    The only other reason is to drop one of those gong guys, which are useful but pretty situational. 

Oh, also:  Komainus can be placed on top of town centers to stop things spawning there.   Wether that's intentional or not, I'm not sure.

That reminds me also:  Levelling up production buildings, there seems to be quite a large boost from level 1 to 2, yet very minimal boosts for the next two levels.  If I'm looking at the numbers correctly, that is.   Kept meaning to mention this one.


Hamlets, the changes to these are good.  The only remaining problem is that it can be much, much too easy to keep replacing the same tile over and over for huge amounts of culture, since a citizen will never generate there, only on the adjacent ones.   This also makes slums pretty easy to deal with because you never have to leave them in place.   Those have also become rare?  I get the feeling that's not supposed to be the case, but I"ve hardly seen any, and I've been placing plenty of hamlet buildings all over the place.   If it wasnt for the ease of replacing a tile over and over though, the increased citizen count would be upping the challenge properly, I think that particular change was a good idea.   Also, arent slums supposed to auto-generate somehow?   I'm not too clear on that bit whatsoever, but Iv'e never seen it happen.


That's all for now!
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 17, 2013, 08:55:09 AM
In terms of replacing a tile in hamlets, you are not referring to the same tile type, right? Hmm. Maybe what I need to introduce there is a new "worker" citizen type that goes on top of all new tiles placed for something like 3 turns. That could have lots of interesting ramifications.

Regarding large towns, possibly those need to become one-per-faction, I dunno. Thoughts?

Regarding resource building upgrades, I wonder if that's not too much in the first place. Hmm.  Removing those and making town specialization always be on might be good. Or maybe just removing town specialization, since it really seems to confuse people, infant that exciting, and really gets negated by large cities anyhow. So, final thought is to remove town specialization but keep upgrades. Thoughts?

Regarding the specific upgrade amounts, I'll have to take a look at the multipliers and see.

Regarding the military from the Japanese, I see what you mean and that is unfortunate. I wonder if perhaps the town centers of the OTHER faction should generate those creatures based on the Japanese god. Though those would mess with balance. So maybe it's special monster caves that pop up that have bandits of these popping out. I like that last one better. That way these guys are in play, and strengthen the bandits so that the Japanese have more to deal with threat-wise to them... but so does the other faction. That might unbalance things even more, in a good way.

Thoughts? Lots of rumination a here, at this point.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Misery on August 17, 2013, 10:20:47 AM
In terms of replacing a tile in hamlets, you are not referring to the same tile type, right? Hmm. Maybe what I need to introduce there is a new "worker" citizen type that goes on top of all new tiles placed for something like 3 turns. That could have lots of interesting ramifications.

That sounds like a good idea;  particularly if you then have other tiles that can then clear those guys off.  The player could still "combo" like that then, but it'd take more work and more use of surrounding tiles to use that big-scoring tile again.

Quote
Regarding large towns, possibly those need to become one-per-faction, I dunno. Thoughts?

Not sure on this one;  with the current system even just one of them produces these effects.  If you undo the specialization though that at least would drop things a good bit, or at least I'm guessing it would.  However, without the specialization the benefit of large towns becomes unclear.  They might be riskier at that point instead of helpful, being easier to destroy since it's 2 cities worth of buildings but all in very close proximity and harder to defend.

Quote
Regarding resource building upgrades, I wonder if that's not too much in the first place. Hmm.  Removing those and making town specialization always be on might be good. Or maybe just removing town specialization, since it really seems to confuse people, infant that exciting, and really gets negated by large cities anyhow. So, final thought is to remove town specialization but keep upgrades. Thoughts?

That does make more sense to me.   It is a little odd that putting a new resource producer of some type makes all of the others of that type in the same town better;  and when you're doing this with multiple things in one town it's not really "specializing" anyway, heh.   The currency usage is definitely more interesting, or at least I think so anyway, others might disagree.  The only problem of course will be the piles of necessary tweaks that might have to go with this since things seem balanced towards the current system, and that bit with the large towns.



Quote
Regarding the military from the Japanese, I see what you mean and that is unfortunate. I wonder if perhaps the town centers of the OTHER faction should generate those creatures based on the Japanese god. Though those would mess with balance. So maybe it's special monster caves that pop up that have bandits of these popping out. I like that last one better. That way these guys are in play, and strengthen the bandits so that the Japanese have more to deal with threat-wise to them... but so does the other faction. That might unbalance things even more, in a good way.

Thoughts? Lots of rumination a here, at this point.

That one doesnt make sense to me, and I'm guessing that it wouldnt make too much sense to most players.  One of the basics that players learn right away is that you've got these gods that appear, and while their powers and passives have the potential to screw you up pretty bad, they are still strong effects with a variety of uses and you'll be wanting them to deal with the later game threats, as well as to get points.  So there's risk, but much power and potential as well, and difficult but rewarding/satisfying choices to be made.   But if the Japanese gods are putting out strong things elsewhere other than in their own faction areas randomly, these concepts kinda fall apart.  Suddenly you've got this god that may as well just be some bandit god (and also may as well just be killed off ASAP) since it's just actively helping the other groups (and that goes against some concepts as well), and you've got this faction that is then missing this key basic element, and choices/options, that the others have. Particularly if the player decides to bypass the threat by trying to kill off the related god.   On top of that, with these units being what they are, having them pop out of somewhat random spots might be a bit much;  the bandit units arent quite as strong, but they can still be a huge threat just based on that small fact, and are quite strong.  At the very least having the god units come out of cities for the Japanese means that the player knows where they're coming from, even if that often doesnt help as much.   The other way also just sounds rather frustrating.

I dunno what to suggest on this one.   The nature of the units themselves makes it hard to think of a good solution that also provides that usefulness (and set of options) and risk to the player while not seeming strange and arbitrary.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 17, 2013, 11:07:00 AM
Regarding the military from the Japanese, I see what you mean and that is unfortunate. I wonder if perhaps the town centers of the OTHER faction should generate those creatures based on the Japanese god. Though those would mess with balance. So maybe it's special monster caves that pop up that have bandits of these popping out. I like that last one better. That way these guys are in play, and strengthen the bandits so that the Japanese have more to deal with threat-wise to them... but so does the other faction. That might unbalance things even more, in a good way.

Thoughts? Lots of rumination a here, at this point.

That one doesnt make sense to me, and I'm guessing that it wouldnt make too much sense to most players.  One of the basics that players learn right away is that you've got these gods that appear, and while their powers and passives have the potential to screw you up pretty bad, they are still strong effects with a variety of uses and you'll be wanting them to deal with the later game threats, as well as to get points.  So there's risk, but much power and potential as well, and difficult but rewarding/satisfying choices to be made.   But if the Japanese gods are putting out strong things elsewhere other than in their own faction areas randomly, these concepts kinda fall apart.  Suddenly you've got this god that may as well just be some bandit god (and also may as well just be killed off ASAP) since it's just actively helping the other groups (and that goes against some concepts as well), and you've got this faction that is then missing this key basic element, and choices/options, that the others have. Particularly if the player decides to bypass the threat by trying to kill off the related god.   On top of that, with these units being what they are, having them pop out of somewhat random spots might be a bit much;  the bandit units arent quite as strong, but they can still be a huge threat just based on that small fact, and are quite strong.  At the very least having the god units come out of cities for the Japanese means that the player knows where they're coming from, even if that often doesnt help as much.   The other way also just sounds rather frustrating.

I dunno what to suggest on this one.   The nature of the units themselves makes it hard to think of a good solution that also provides that usefulness (and set of options) and risk to the player while not seeming strange and arbitrary.

Ok, so how about having the Japanese town centres generate mythological beasts, but spend resources to do so? I think the cost for generating Myths in this way should be a fraction (1/2?) of the cost for placing them normally, possibly minus the soul imprint.

This fixes the problem of the Japanese amassing vast piles of incense and diamonds (because those are being spent whether you want it or not), while also giving the Japanese a unique drawback (you can't necessarily place the Myths you want when and where you want them, because Kagu-tsuchi has already spent all of your incense on producing fire-breathing killer chickens) and a unique advantage (discount mythical beasts).
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 17, 2013, 11:37:40 AM
Time to earn my spurs ;D.

In terms of replacing a tile in hamlets, you are not referring to the same tile type, right? Hmm. Maybe what I need to introduce there is a new "worker" citizen type that goes on top of all new tiles placed for something like 3 turns. That could have lots of interesting ramifications.
This sounds like a good addition. See below for more initial feedback on Hamlet Idyll Mode.

Regarding large towns, possibly those need to become one-per-faction, I dunno. Thoughts?
If removing town specializations (see below), I would be okay with not limiting them. If need be the baseline culture cost could simply raised or e.g. be doubled with every additional large town after the first.

Regarding resource building upgrades, I wonder if that's not too much in the first place. Hmm.  Removing those and making town specialization always be on might be good. Or maybe just removing town specialization, since it really seems to confuse people, infant that exciting, and really gets negated by large cities anyhow. So, final thought is to remove town specialization but keep upgrades. Thoughts?
I vote for removing town specializations now that large towns are available as this will likely also reign in exponential resource generation by large towns described by Misery earlier (which would definitely be a problem - I did not yet try large towns myself).

I see one problem with removing specializations, however :-\: It will either make the higher difficulties of basegame only games significantly easier (if compensating for the lost ability by removing the respective cost increase) or harder (if not doing so) as large towns will not be available in such games. Either way it will take something away from the experience, which I would regret for those not getting the expansion.

Regarding the military from the Japanese, I see what you mean and that is unfortunate. I wonder if perhaps the town centers of the OTHER faction should generate those creatures based on the Japanese god. Though those would mess with balance. So maybe it's special monster caves that pop up that have bandits of these popping out. I like that last one better. That way these guys are in play, and strengthen the bandits so that the Japanese have more to deal with threat-wise to them... but so does the other faction. That might unbalance things even more, in a good way.
Letting them spawn at enemy town centers sounds like a really bad idea to me. Solving the problem by adding a new kind of (indestructible?) Monster Cave spawning them every (other?) turn, however, is a really elegant solution for a number of problems imho:
- It will threaten the Japanese faction as well, thus encouraging the player to build military units which will further counter the reported resource bloat of the Japanese faction
- It will encourage the manual placement of such creatures by the Japanese faction to counter their bandit siblings, something that went overboard with their free spawing in 1.900 apparently, again providing some use for those Japanese resources.
- It makes the Japanese struggle with their own pantheon which seems to be in line with what I heard about it so far lorewise (in terms of them being unpredictable, free roaming, etc.)
   
EDIT:
Ah dammit. I just occurred to me that this would lead to really weird situations, e.g. a given Japanese god killing of its own spawn/minions turned Bandit. This just doesn't feel right...

What about this:
Define a nemesis for each Japanese god out of the implemented Japanese pantheon and let the nemesis' minions spawn in the monster caves, i.e. each God available to the player would lorewise be locked in some kind of petty feud with its nemesis - If doable I think this would be very interesting :D!   


On Hamlet Idyll Mode:
I just finished (won) my first game on Hard roughly 30 turns early. I would really like this if I had pulled off some ingenious strategy, but the pity is - I have not  :-\. Don't get me wrong: I had fun along the way, but I feel a little cheap. All I did was hovering over the items of my queue, hunting for the biggest available culture increase proposed by the overlay (or a neutral location that would not cost me culture in the worst case) and placing the respective tile. That was all.

Maybe I was just lucky, but I fear that the overlay indicating the change in culture is a little too helpful to be fun in the long run, but instead trivializes the process of building a hamlet somewhat. If I had been "encouraged" to learn the properties of the various hamlet tiles to be able to place them reasonably - that would have  been another story. The way my game played out the tiles could as well have been all of the same type - it did not matter, the overlay told me where to place the tile via the culture change. There was no reason for me to check what I was actually placing...

Removing the overlay in regular games might be over the top, though, as here the placing of hamlet buildings is only a side quest. For Hamlet Idyll Mode, though, removing it would drastically improve the game imho.

EDIT2:
It just occured to me that the issues I describe above might turn to be non-existent if the playing area had been smaller and/or the amount of culture I had to accumulate higher. I am not sure, though. Maybe tweak the size and numbers and disable the overlay in higher difficulties only?


PS:
I totally forgot to mention:
The new woes (especially the catastrophic ones) sound awesome!
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 17, 2013, 11:53:14 AM
Regarding the military from the Japanese, I see what you mean and that is unfortunate. I wonder if perhaps the town centers of the OTHER faction should generate those creatures based on the Japanese god. Though those would mess with balance. So maybe it's special monster caves that pop up that have bandits of these popping out. I like that last one better. That way these guys are in play, and strengthen the bandits so that the Japanese have more to deal with threat-wise to them... but so does the other faction. That might unbalance things even more, in a good way.

Thoughts? Lots of rumination a here, at this point.

That one doesnt make sense to me, and I'm guessing that it wouldnt make too much sense to most players.  One of the basics that players learn right away is that you've got these gods that appear, and while their powers and passives have the potential to screw you up pretty bad, they are still strong effects with a variety of uses and you'll be wanting them to deal with the later game threats, as well as to get points.  So there's risk, but much power and potential as well, and difficult but rewarding/satisfying choices to be made.   But if the Japanese gods are putting out strong things elsewhere other than in their own faction areas randomly, these concepts kinda fall apart.  Suddenly you've got this god that may as well just be some bandit god (and also may as well just be killed off ASAP) since it's just actively helping the other groups (and that goes against some concepts as well), and you've got this faction that is then missing this key basic element, and choices/options, that the others have. Particularly if the player decides to bypass the threat by trying to kill off the related god.   On top of that, with these units being what they are, having them pop out of somewhat random spots might be a bit much;  the bandit units arent quite as strong, but they can still be a huge threat just based on that small fact, and are quite strong.  At the very least having the god units come out of cities for the Japanese means that the player knows where they're coming from, even if that often doesnt help as much.   The other way also just sounds rather frustrating.

I dunno what to suggest on this one.   The nature of the units themselves makes it hard to think of a good solution that also provides that usefulness (and set of options) and risk to the player while not seeming strange and arbitrary.

Ok, so how about having the Japanese town centres generate mythological beasts, but spend resources to do so? I think the cost for generating Myths in this way should be a fraction (1/2?) of the cost for placing them normally, possibly minus the soul imprint.

This fixes the problem of the Japanese amassing vast piles of incense and diamonds (because those are being spent whether you want it or not), while also giving the Japanese a unique drawback (you can't necessarily place the Myths you want when and where you want them, because Kagu-tsuchi has already spent all of your incense on producing fire-breathing killer chickens) and a unique advantage (discount mythical beasts).
I like this idea as well - in case my proposal turns out to be over the top ;D.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 17, 2013, 12:51:19 PM
Downloading the Nihon No Mura expansion now, looking forward to trying out Hamlets and seeing what the Japanese faction is like.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 17, 2013, 02:10:38 PM
I just won Hamlet Idyll on Torment difficulty, with 17 turns to spare, by mindlessly placing whichever building would net me the highest score. I think something is wrong.

In more detail:

At a first glance, it looks like the optimum strategy is to divide the map in half, pile all the nobles and banks and temples in one half and all the peasants and peasant workplaces in the other. I might be right about this, I might be wrong, but if I were going to try playing smart, that's what I'd do.

It's difficult to assess how much the spawning characters (peasants, nobles, etcetera) are harming my score, because the game doesn't display how much score you WOULD get if they weren't in the way. It would be nice if the game would display this, ideally greyed-out or struck through, at least during the beta-testing phase so we can work out how much effect they're having.

Several times, without planning to do so, I found myself in the position of placing in the same space repeatedly, because there was a group of buildings - usually Noble housing - surrounding one square, making that square intensely lucrative for temples, banks, and more nobility. The proposed "builder" would fix this, but again, I'd like to be able to see the score cost incurred by these.

Despite the stack of five buildings, it seems difficult and pointless to plan ahead. For one thing, if you place a building at the static, low-scoring end of the queue in the hope of getting a combo from something at the high-scoring end of the queue, it had better be a bloody good combo because not only do you get fewer points for what you just placed, you've just cheated yourself out of an extra pile of points when the building you intend to place next moves along the queue into a lower-scoring box. It almost feels like the scores scale the wrong way along the queue!

Let's think about this. If the scores didn't scale with queue position, would there be any tactical reason to play from one end of the queue or the other? Answer: No. Wherever you play from, you get one replacement building, and the only building you lose from the queue is the one you played. This was rather different when buildings would fall off the end of the queue every turn: There, you could potentially be in a position where the building about to fall off the queue was something you needed, so you'd play it straight away rather than lose it. With points scaling down as building options get older, you'd have an incentive to play things quickly, before they get stale and eventually vanish.

If the scores scaled the other way with queue position, so they'd move to the high-scoring end, which tile would you preferentially play? You'd still aim for the highest scorer wherever possible, in order to bump the others up in score. However, you'd actually have more reason to plan ahead - with the two spaces at the high-scoring end of the queue being your preferred choice, you'd be able to see in advance which buildings you were going to want to place next.

As things stand, you're preferentially playing the newest tile, which means the building you're going to want to place next turn is the one that hasn't arrived yet. You can't plan ahead -  or you can, but you're planning for tiles you haven't seen yet, and taking a big risk in doing so. I don't think it pays off.

Imagine, for a moment, that the queue only had three tiles in it, but you could see the next two tiles that were going to be added to the queue: greyed-out and unplaceable, but you know you're going to get them next.. Would this encourage more forward planning? Yes, I think so. Now, scaling the scores the other way - highest scores at the static end of the queue - works in a similar way. You WANT to place the tiles at the high-scoring end. The tiles at the low scoring end aren't actually greyed-out, but they might as well be, because you don't WANT to place them yet: they score too low. Would you ever find yourself wanting to place them anyway? Occasionally, maybe to score a combo (maybe placing that noble house first and THEN the temple will score more than doing it the other way around, even bearing in mind the noble will have a higher multiplier if you place it second?); to clear out civilians with a slum; or, when you've painted yourself into a corner and you've got something that's going to give you a negative score no matter where you put it, to get it out of the way before the multiplier racks up.

Am I waffling a bit on a subject I don't know much about? Maybe. I haven't yet made a serious effort to approach Hamlet Idyll with a mind to building combos and getting high scores.


Edit: Also, the Mayor's House never showed up. Can you code this so it has a somewhat higher chance of appearing, but will never be added to the queue if there's already a Mayor's House in play?
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 17, 2013, 04:09:52 PM
An additional comment: In Hamlet Idyll mode, there's no way to change the map layout. If you have a horribly-placed cluster of dead forests or something, you're stuck with it. This could potentially make the game unwinnable, or nearly so, on high difficulties.

I'd like to be able to place new map tiles (fields, forests, etc: everything that can appear naturally in the Hamlet Idyll map, so no blight or anything). It would cost a turn and score no points, and wouldn't move the building queue along, but it could correct a potentially doomed scenario. Certainly not something you want to use every game.

I'd put the menu for map tiles either underneath or above the Help button.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Misery on August 17, 2013, 06:59:36 PM

Ok, so how about having the Japanese town centres generate mythological beasts, but spend resources to do so? I think the cost for generating Myths in this way should be a fraction (1/2?) of the cost for placing them normally, possibly minus the soul imprint.

This fixes the problem of the Japanese amassing vast piles of incense and diamonds (because those are being spent whether you want it or not), while also giving the Japanese a unique drawback (you can't necessarily place the Myths you want when and where you want them, because Kagu-tsuchi has already spent all of your incense on producing fire-breathing killer chickens) and a unique advantage (discount mythical beasts).

While it's not a bad idea, I think it still leads to the same problem, which is the player having little reason to bother keeping the Japanese gods around.   Suddenly they've got more units they probably didn't want.... AND it's costing them resources. Instead of those gods being useful but dangerous, suddenly they're only dangerous.  AND expensive.  The most obvious, risk-free, and viable strategy, to most players, is likely to be simply killing off the related gods ASAP every single time they appear, since at this point they're only offering negatives.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 17, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
I've thought of another reason to reverse which end of the Hamlet queue scores high. With the current setup, when you get a rubbish tile in the top-scoring slot, you can play the second or third slot, and then forget about the bad tile because it'll drop into the low-scoring regions which you never play from.

With the scoring reversed, when a bad tile shows up, you HAVE to deal with it sooner or later, because in five turns time it'll be sitting in your most highly-scoring slot, and if you leave it there and never play it, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 18, 2013, 12:22:40 AM
I've thought of another reason to reverse which end of the Hamlet queue scores high. With the current setup, when you get a rubbish tile in the top-scoring slot, you can play the second or third slot, and then forget about the bad tile because it'll drop into the low-scoring regions which you never play from.

With the scoring reversed, when a bad tile shows up, you HAVE to deal with it sooner or later, because in five turns time it'll be sitting in your most highly-scoring slot, and if you leave it there and never play it, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
I think you make a convincing case here. Seconded.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 18, 2013, 12:28:59 AM

Ok, so how about having the Japanese town centres generate mythological beasts, but spend resources to do so? I think the cost for generating Myths in this way should be a fraction (1/2?) of the cost for placing them normally, possibly minus the soul imprint.

This fixes the problem of the Japanese amassing vast piles of incense and diamonds (because those are being spent whether you want it or not), while also giving the Japanese a unique drawback (you can't necessarily place the Myths you want when and where you want them, because Kagu-tsuchi has already spent all of your incense on producing fire-breathing killer chickens) and a unique advantage (discount mythical beasts).

While it's not a bad idea, I think it still leads to the same problem, which is the player having little reason to bother keeping the Japanese gods around.   Suddenly they've got more units they probably didn't want.... AND it's costing them resources. Instead of those gods being useful but dangerous, suddenly they're only dangerous.  AND expensive.  The most obvious, risk-free, and viable strategy, to most players, is likely to be simply killing off the related gods ASAP every single time they appear, since at this point they're only offering negatives.
You have a point here. I did not think of this  :-\.
But I am curious: How do you like my Nemesis idea from a few posts back? This would solve the issue fairly elegantly, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Misery on August 18, 2013, 02:40:53 AM
Hm, even if there was some sort of enemy boss spawning extra things, I dont think it'd really do anything for the main problem of what in the heck to do with the Japanese gods and their units.  The AI being what it is, the god on the player's side would likely not stay focused on the enemy boss for long, if at all, and the problem with the out of control god-units would still exist;  the safest solution still remains as simply nuking the Japanese god ASAP to put a stop to all of that extra risk; it'd be my usual tactic, at any rate.   Both sides could then simply focus on the boss and his minions.   The chances of the player using Armageddon-style powers would likely rise here as well if unit overload occurs due to even more bandit-style things showing up (due to spamming more units than usual to attack those added foes).

I'm also guessing that it'd be too much to implement as well.  There would be art to do and abilities to program and so on.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 18, 2013, 03:14:58 AM
Hm, even if there was some sort of enemy boss spawning extra things, I dont think it'd really do anything for the main problem of what in the heck to do with the Japanese gods and their units.  The AI being what it is, the god on the player's side would likely not stay focused on the enemy boss for long, if at all, and the problem with the out of control god-units would still exist;  the safest solution still remains as simply nuking the Japanese god ASAP to put a stop to all of that extra risk; it'd be my usual tactic, at any rate.   Both sides could then simply focus on the boss and his minions.   The chances of the player using Armageddon-style powers would likely rise here as well if unit overload occurs due to even more bandit-style things showing up (due to spamming more units than usual to attack those added foes).

I'm also guessing that it'd be too much to implement as well.  There would be art to do and abilities to program and so on.
Ah no, you got me wrong :). What I meant was this:
- Remove the automatic spawning of myth units belonging to the Japanese gods from Japanese Town centers
- Spawn a new kind of monster cave instead.
- Let the Monster Caves spawn myth units belonging to some other Japanese deity (which is not present on the board) at a reasonable rate 

So, no boss at all ;). The basic idea is to motivate the player to summon myth units to handle the extra threat coming from the monster caves, while still providing some reason lorewise why the Japanese side should tackle Japanese myth units (which makes much more sense if these are not the same units that can be summoned directly, very weird)...
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 18, 2013, 03:48:11 AM
Here's another thought:

Why not simply follow the path you selected for the Japanese gods to it's logical conclusion?

You chose to make them so that they are able and supposed to actively rampage the countryside.
The problem we have, as I see it, is that we have a truckload of really bonkers Japanese myth units which lead to a lot of fun on the board but which the player is not inclined to inflict on himself as they will make things substantially harder. Additionally these units are (as of 1.900) so expensive that the player is further warded from using them.

My proposal is this:
Remove the ability to place god related myth units for the Japanese faction altogether!
Instead, let the Japanese gods spawn them on their own accord in a certain radius of their position.
If they are supposed to spread trouble - let them do it right ;).
If spawning a creature every turn turns out to be too tough this can easily be toned down by increasing the time between spawns and/or randomizing it within certain bounds - similar to what is done with the Woes.

TL;DR: Make the Japanese gods into mobile Woes :).

Possible consequences include some resources (moonstone, sunstone) being neglected by the Japanese faction and a certain incentive to kill off the Japanese gods if possible.
Both issues are neglectible/solvable in my opinion.
The resources may either be put to use by adjusting the costs of the remaining myth units and tokens or to work toward culture based victory (which takes a lot of sunstone I hear).

Or the Japanese gods could demand some upkeep in terms of moonstone/sunstone and turn hostile against their own faction for some time if being denied the resources. *That* might turn out to be an interesting mechanic!

Killing them off should be easy to make troublesome, either by adjusting the gods stats if needed or e.g. by assigning a point penalty to their death. Killing them using Super Smite would be okay in my book as the player would have to work somewhat toward culture to achieve this. Maybe make it more expansive if used to purge a god if needed (I think somebody proposed context sensitive costs for this in the past).

So...
Thoughts :D?     
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Misery on August 18, 2013, 05:36:50 AM
With the way some of the unit abilities are, I cant think of many ideas that dont lead to "kill the Japanese god ASAP every single game" which still doesnt seem quite right to me.   Not to mention that the Japanese faction currently feels like it has a much lower amount of options for dealing with situations;  they seem to almost entirely rely on Shinigami to survive nasty situations, since they dont have any of the mega-powers that the other two have with their god tokens.   Oh sure, they have other myth tokens of their own, but Shinigami is the only "big" one for dealing with major woes and other huge situations.     Which, in the current version, I end up firing off even more often, because the moment something like a Tanuki appears, the Japanese army is screwed.   Or I end up dropping Komainus on the town centers over and over again. 


The gods running around randomly farting out monstes would probably end up being a bit of the same problem:  save big "nuke" powers and use them over and over again to stem the flow, probably dedicating a large portion of the other side's resources to moon/sun stones for this exact purpose, and then nuke the god ASAP to stop it, because a "super monster cave" that runs around like a crazed maniac is possibly a bit much.   Particularly since other myth units often cannot hold a candle to some of the god-units, particularly in large numbers (particuarly once they level up, but some are terribly dangerous even at level 1), and human units are basically worthless against them.    Though.... as a completely seperate thought aside from this situation, maybe add something like a slower ally camp that can spawn things like this (like, not every turn, but every few turns, and maybe certain units such as Hou-ou might be restricted from appearing there) that just appears as an added effect (probably age of gods only), as this concept is actually not a bad one, I just dont think it fixes the main god-unit situation.


To me, the original idea was the best one:  Where the new units pretty much are just god tokens in unit form, with the same potential big risk VS potential big/useful effect, except that they then stay on the board as a mobile unit.  But the effects of many of them ended up being mostly risk, with little or even no benefit, for a number of reasons.

In many cases, I think simply switching up some of the effects a bit would fix this.  The Tanuki for example;  have it not affect the army that summoned it, and perhaps make it's effect temporary even (like, lasting 5 turns on any given unit or something) but then increase the range to 3 or 4.  It would be effective against enemy human units, and still risky, having a chance to go on a bit of a rampage depending on what happens (particularly since melee units would be worthless against it).  Something like Hou-ou would be similar; that one doesnt work out well for the specific reason that it chooses a faction randomly;  you cant be sure which side you're helping.  If it worked JUST on the faction that summoned it, it'd be helpful because of the guaranteed power boost.... but still quite risky as the army could get really out of control (and you still wouldnt know which exact unit it would target until you used it).    Other units like Nue actually ARE decent.... but their cost just doesnt add up.  Nue is useful for his simple ability of being able to launch across the map in one turn, BUT, he costs so much (and isnt THAT powerful in terms of health/damage) that his cost rendered him unusable. There's a good number of them that fall into that category beyond just Nue.  Basan (though he's a bit situational, mostly usable just on the bamboo map), that creepy tree thing, Kitsune (though it's effect is kinda weak) and various others. Those guys could be good with cost changes, and in some cases a bit of stat changes.  And some of them simply have abilities that dont really make sense as to how they could be used;  Kodama, Enenra, Hihi, Tengu, and all of Suijinsama's units all fall into this category.  They're all either total negative, or so ridiculously situational that they just have no use.

Perhaps working up entirely new mechanics isnt the answer, but some simple tweaks might do instead.  Granted, since these are currently a bit of a mess it's a whole pile of tweaks, but I dont think that it'd be a matter of like, complete recoding or outright replacement.   

I guess this is probably the best suggestion I have, since I really do think the original concept for these units was a very good idea;  it just came out very wonky in it's original execution.


That's my thoughts anyway.  Wether or not they're USEFUL thoughts is another matter  :P
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 18, 2013, 06:27:55 AM
I really can't think of an answer for this one. The Japanese god-specific Myths are frequently the kind of thing you'd never want to place, because they cause chaos, and that makes it harder to win the game. We then changed things so they're produced automatically, but this causes even more chaos and you desperately want to get rid of the god that's causing them to spawn. The only answer I can see is to make the Japanese Myth units less disruptive so there's more of an incentive to play them, but this could remove a lot of their character and general coolness.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 18, 2013, 08:17:04 AM
I really can't think of an answer for this one. The Japanese god-specific Myths are frequently the kind of thing you'd never want to place, because they cause chaos, and that makes it harder to win the game. We then changed things so they're produced automatically, but this causes even more chaos and you desperately want to get rid of the god that's causing them to spawn. The only answer I can see is to make the Japanese Myth units less disruptive so there's more of an incentive to play them, but this could remove a lot of their character and general coolness.
Raising the number of points granted by playing them significantly might well achieve what we want - it works for the more inconvenient God tokens of the other factions after all: You play them to accumulate score.
The downside of this is that we would likely have to increase cooldowns significantly as well to prevent the score gates from becoming irrelevant, thus taking a bit of uniqueness from the Japanese faction (read: more frequent god tokens/myth units).

But if we hit the sweet spot here - that may be the easiest and least disruptive solution to the problem that we yet discussed... 

Perhaps working up entirely new mechanics isnt the answer, but some simple tweaks might do instead.  Granted, since these are currently a bit of a mess it's a whole pile of tweaks, but I dont think that it'd be a matter of like, complete recoding or outright replacement.   
To my demise, you are probably right here :-\. I still like the other ideas we played with, though ;)...
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 19, 2013, 09:11:55 AM
Whew, okay.  Thanks for all the notes folks -- this was hard to internalize, but I have thread and I think I have a plan of action that you'll like.  Lots of points well taken here.

There were a couple of questions that I noticed that were based on misconceptions, or things that I just think are not a good idea for past playtesting reasons; in particular:

1. FYI, the hamlet civilians don't affect score, they just block where you can place new buildings.

2. In the past we had no overlays for the tiles in terms of the points given by hamlets, but that was incredibly difficult.  And let's be honest: if we took that away, we'd just be making players do lots of un-fun math.  The actual choices of where to place tiles for an immediate gain should be just as easy as it is now.  But the choices on how to delay gratification should be more interesting.  It's like leaving open a column for a long piece in tetris, etc.  I think a lot of the other suggestions here will probably completely handle this.

3. In terms of the god mythos, I think the simplest thing is a reworking of many of their abilities, or at least a tuning.  I will look into that.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 19, 2013, 10:03:00 AM
1. FYI, the hamlet civilians don't affect score, they just block where you can place new buildings.

I think there might have been some miscommunication here. I know the civilians don't affect score. However, I can't see what score I'd be getting from placing in the tile occupied by the civilian. For example, if I have a temple to place, and there's a nice little ring of noble houses, the middle square could be worth around a thousand points. However, if there's a civilian in that space, I can't see the "+1000" display over that tile, so I don't realise that the civilian is cheating me out of a massive score boost.

If I could see that, I'd be able to give you much better feedback on how much of an effect the civilians are having, and whether or not I benefit significantly from taking efforts to remove them.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: nas1m on August 19, 2013, 10:05:52 AM
Whew, okay.  Thanks for all the notes folks -- this was hard to internalize, but I have thread and I think I have a plan of action that you'll like.  Lots of points well taken here.

There were a couple of questions that I noticed that were based on misconceptions, or things that I just think are not a good idea for past playtesting reasons; in particular:

1. FYI, the hamlet civilians don't affect score, they just block where you can place new buildings.

2. In the past we had no overlays for the tiles in terms of the points given by hamlets, but that was incredibly difficult.  And let's be honest: if we took that away, we'd just be making players do lots of un-fun math.  The actual choices of where to place tiles for an immediate gain should be just as easy as it is now.  But the choices on how to delay gratification should be more interesting.  It's like leaving open a column for a long piece in tetris, etc.  I think a lot of the other suggestions here will probably completely handle this.

3. In terms of the god mythos, I think the simplest thing is a reworking of many of their abilities, or at least a tuning.  I will look into that.
Sounds good to me :)...
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 19, 2013, 10:21:20 AM
1. FYI, the hamlet civilians don't affect score, they just block where you can place new buildings.

I think there might have been some miscommunication here. I know the civilians don't affect score. However, I can't see what score I'd be getting from placing in the tile occupied by the civilian. For example, if I have a temple to place, and there's a nice little ring of noble houses, the middle square could be worth around a thousand points. However, if there's a civilian in that space, I can't see the "+1000" display over that tile, so I don't realise that the civilian is cheating me out of a massive score boost.

If I could see that, I'd be able to give you much better feedback on how much of an effect the civilians are having, and whether or not I benefit significantly from taking efforts to remove them.

AHA!  Very good idea, thanks for clarifying. :)
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 19, 2013, 10:44:08 AM
That's alright. Mantising it now, along with the idea to reverse the score brackets in the queue.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 19, 2013, 10:46:49 AM
That's alright. Mantising it now, along with the idea to reverse the score brackets in the queue.

Both are already done, no need to mantis!  Check out the release notes, sorry. :)
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: Valtiel on August 19, 2013, 10:50:48 AM
Rats.

You're too quick.
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 19, 2013, 10:51:36 AM
 :P
Title: Re: Skyward Collapse 1.900 Beta "Release Candidate 1" Released!
Post by: x4000 on August 19, 2013, 02:53:58 PM
New one!  http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13718.0.html