Author Topic: Chapmen Removal  (Read 2295 times)

Offline Mick

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Chapmen Removal
« on: May 07, 2013, 02:27:38 PM »
I noticed you plan to remove chapmen in the next update. The reasons you lay out make a lot of sense.

I have to ask though, what is to prevent me from being all my red resources next to the blue town, and vice verca - thus providing convenient targets for the military to attack, while still providing resources until they convert to the other team?

Offline x4000

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 02:28:51 PM »
We are not done yet with the changes -- stay tuned. :)

The chapman removal is not the most severe change in some senses, although it is one of the two biggeset.
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Offline Mick

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 02:30:28 PM »
I can't help myself. I seek to exploit your game even when I'm not playing it.

Offline x4000

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 02:32:08 PM »
Oh, it's a great thing.  And the reason for these changes is how exploity people have been with the basic economy in some circumstances.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 02:33:02 PM »
I kinda saw this coming.  Economic strangulation through military action is fun but the player can kill the econ just as easily by not having enough producers/chapman.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 02:36:41 PM »
Yep.  Next part:

* The distinction between "town buildings" and "resource buildings" has been completely removed.  Thus you now must place all of your buildings, period, within the two rings around a town.
** This makes for more opportunity cost with building placement, and keeps the towns more visually compact (and easier to target -- no hiding a rice field way off in the middle of nowhere, etc).
** This is also less confusing for new players to learn, as an added bonus, but honestly this is more about preventing exploits at a more experienced level of play.
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Offline Mick

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 02:46:55 PM »
I like this, I always wondered what the real incentive was to make more than one town, and now you will have to if you want to expand your economy.

It also makes it easier to find spots to place other towns, since they can't clash with resource buildings.

Will military units require that the entire 'supply-chain' be within that town's borders, or still only the finished goods? I think it would be cool if traders could have the purpose of expanding resource distribution between towns instead of just magically producing random goods out of thin air.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 02:49:31 PM »
So each town gets 24 usable tiles.  That's pretty much forcing a lot of choices and multiple towns (can no longer place all buildings in one town).  Talk about needing to specialize?

Side note (something to consider maybe?), a 3 ring radius would give 48 usable tile spaces ((7*7)-1)) and would allow larger single TC games :)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline madcow

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 02:53:23 PM »
Thank god. This is a great change. Will make things much less confusing. Also managing the chapman traffic jams I was getting was a pain.  Apparently plopping down a dozen chapman for one village was counter productive, who knew.

Offline x4000

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2013, 02:54:18 PM »
Quote
Will military units require that the entire 'supply-chain' be within that town's borders, or still only the finished goods? I think it would be cool if traders could have the purpose of expanding resource distribution between towns instead of just magically producing random goods out of thin air.

Nope, that's not changing, and really can't, because of all the direct actions that require resources.  Having to decide which town it takes the resources from is awkward as heck.  At any rate, so the finished goods distinction and so forth is staying.

Quote
So each town gets 24 usable tiles.  That's pretty much forcing a lot of choices and multiple towns (can no longer place all buildings in one town).  Talk about needing to specialize?

You bet, I'm super happy about this.  Originally we were going with one ring of just 9, but we shifted it to 2 rings because that's just too small.  But 24 has demonstrably been waaay too large without the resource buildings having to be in there.  This hits a pretty happy medium.  This is supposed to be a game about a countryside of towns, not cities or sprawling strip mining, heh.  The way that the games were looking was really far from what the goals had been envisioned for it...
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Offline Mick

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2013, 02:57:07 PM »
Honestly, I'd advocate for only allowing ONE ring of buildings! Really force you to choose, and having a town getting taken over can cripple a supply chain.

Offline x4000

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2013, 02:59:06 PM »
Honestly, I'd advocate for only allowing ONE ring of buildings! Really force you to choose, and having a town getting taken over can cripple a supply chain.

It sounds on paper like that would work, and it's what I originally wanted, but it isn't even possible to build military units that way -- too many buildings needed!  Two rings is still slightly generous even with the recent changes, but it's in a good range.
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Offline Mick

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2013, 03:03:21 PM »
It sounds on paper like that would work, and it's what I originally wanted, but it isn't even possible to build military units that way -- too many buildings needed!  Two rings is still slightly generous even with the recent changes, but it's in a good range.

Hmm, what about something in the middle? The first town is a "capital" with two rings, but all the new towns only get a single ring.

Really stresses the importance of keeping that initial town for your faction, allows military units to be built (but on the outer towns you'd really only be able to support a few types) and provides a good 'base' for generating the needed resources on other towns.

Offline x4000

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2013, 03:06:14 PM »
If you do the math, it still doesn't work.  Just to build a barracks with any real function, you need (presuming resources like pig farms are elsewhere): a butcher, a smithy, and a barracks.  That's 1/3 of your tile cap right there.  If you need something else specialized like a smelter for steel, or a brewery for ale, then forget about it.  And so on.  Literally this is what we started with, but it was intensely uncomfortable as a way to play even to me.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Chapmen Removal
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2013, 03:06:18 PM »
You bet, I'm super happy about this.  Originally we were going with one ring of just 9, but we shifted it to 2 rings because that's just too small.  But 24 has demonstrably been waaay too large without the resource buildings having to be in there.  This hits a pretty happy medium.  This is supposed to be a game about a countryside of towns, not cities or sprawling strip mining, heh.  The way that the games were looking was really far from what the goals had been envisioned for it...
Funny how I seem to find ways to play your games in "unintended" ways ;)


@Mick: One ring gives you 8 usable tiles.  Marauders, for example, take a minimum of 5 buildings to produce.  They need more than that to produce one every turn.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.