Arcen Games

Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Wingflier on February 05, 2016, 06:17:06 PM

Title: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 05, 2016, 06:17:06 PM
I know this forum has a lot of fans of the XCOM games, so I was wondering about the popular consensus on the critically acclaimed next title in the series.

What it has going for it are amazing reviews, updated graphics, and new mechanics.

What it has going against it is are some significant release bugs, the $60 price tag, and the pre-release $20 DLC, which seems to have become more and more common for big companies.

So friends, tell us what you think.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 05, 2016, 06:32:02 PM
I love it so far.

Some performance woes that should really not be there, but it's not unplayable at least, and hopefully they get resolved soon.

A lot of people bitching about missions having a turn-limit, but I think the game is better for it.

I don't have a problem with the whole DLC thing in AAA games. When game prices don't adjust to inflation, that's what companies have to do basically.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 05, 2016, 07:18:53 PM
Quote
A lot of people bitching about missions having a turn-limit, but I think the game is better for it.
I didn't know about this until you mentioned it, but that's really nifty! One of the things I hate the most about the XCOM games is how dragged out the missions can become. And since it never punished you for being ridiculously cautious, it could sometimes take ages for even the most mundane missions.

What's the outcome of exceeding the turn limit?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 05, 2016, 07:25:57 PM
Quote
A lot of people bitching about missions having a turn-limit, but I think the game is better for it.
I didn't know about this until you mentioned it, but that's really nifty! One of the things I hate the most about the XCOM games is how dragged out the missions can become. And since it never punished you for being ridiculously cautious, it could sometimes take ages for even the most mundane missions.

What's the outcome of exceeding the turn limit?

One mission appeared to be a forced extraction, so you basically didn't do what you set out to do and have to go home a failure.

I had a rescue VIP mission where I believe the VIP was just going to go away if you took too long, but you would STILL have to make it to the extraction point on your own if you wanted to get out alive. (I ended up killing the VIP well before the time limit, whoops!).

It seems in either case you basically lose you mission reward, but it's not like your squad bites it, but who knows if some harder missions may be that way (I'm not too far yet).

The time limits are tight, but not excessively so. People make it sound like you have to sprint toward the objective w/o abandon getting gunned down in the process. I didn't find it to be that way at all. You basically just can't waste turns doing nothing (crawl->overwatch->crawl->repeat).

Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 05, 2016, 08:15:58 PM
yea this game looks pretty great sadly I don't think my laptop could possibly run I remember trying out xcom 1 when it was on a free weekend and it couldn't even load properly sadness on my part.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 05, 2016, 08:21:28 PM
Heard a lot about shitty performance, but otherwise it's pretty much universally praised. I know I'm betraying my XCOM-fanboyism but I haven't actually bought it yet. I'm not THAT interested in this reboot that I have to get it on release. I'll get it when there's economic space, a sale or when I actually feel like being kicked in the teeth by RNG. ^^
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 05, 2016, 08:29:46 PM
Heard a lot about shitty performance, but otherwise it's pretty much universally praised. I know I'm betraying my XCOM-fanboyism but I haven't actually bought it yet. I'm not THAT interested in this reboot that I have to get it on release. I'll get it when there's economic space, a sale or when I actually feel like being kicked in the teeth by RNG. ^^
its not that shitty a performer its just the norm for my laptop anything that's full 3d while also designed to look tends to make my laptop angry and kill it normally I wouldn't care(I normally prefer 2d art styled games any way) but xcom 2 has surprised me by actually looking really fun and better than its predecessor.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 05, 2016, 09:15:30 PM
Well, I've heard of people with beefy gaming rigs having the game chug along. That's what I meant ^^
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 05, 2016, 09:25:57 PM
Well, I've heard of people with beefy gaming rigs having the game chug along. That's what I meant ^^
well in my case games like that just don't work if it was just a case of fps id play it any way although if people are having issues like that with good pcs then it may be time for the xcom 2 to invest in some optimisation.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 05, 2016, 09:52:46 PM
I recently did a mission that had a ton of turn animation glitches (where it hangs for a long time before showing the animation). It is unfortunate and I hope they solve these quickly.

It's a bit odd because it was running much better for me this morning.

XCOM had them now and again but it seems much worse here.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 06, 2016, 01:27:30 AM
No! Don't talk about it, don't spoiler it!
 I cannot play it right now because of my dumb download limit! For some idiotic reason my internet privider thougth NOW would be the best time to replace all old lines/wires and replace them with something new. However, this takes awefully long and until it's done i have only shitty internet. On multiple days int he wek I don't get any internet at all and it pisses me off!
Now I cannot play XCOM on the release day and this drives me crazy!
GODDAMMIT!!!
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 06, 2016, 07:11:01 AM
From what I've heard the issue is firaxis added in an absurd level of AA (MSAA 8x) that no one will reasonably run well yet, so the answer is to tone down your antialiasing and then tinker with other things.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 06, 2016, 01:05:20 PM
From what I've heard the issue is firaxis added in an absurd level of AA (MSAA 8x) that no one will reasonably run well yet, so the answer is to tone down your antialiasing and then tinker with other things.

That helps but it's really only part of the problem.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 06, 2016, 01:13:53 PM
I'm principally against spending $60 on a game, unless it's some kind of bundle or RTS for which I want to support the developer. So as exciting as it has been talking about XCOM 2 and watching people play it, I figured I may not be able to enjoy it myself for another year or more.

My best friend got me a copy out of nowhere, it shocked the hell out of me, and so I'm installing it now. I'm so excited to play.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 06, 2016, 04:09:40 PM
From what I've heard the issue is firaxis added in an absurd level of AA (MSAA 8x) that no one will reasonably run well yet, so the answer is to tone down your antialiasing and then tinker with other things.

That helps but it's really only part of the problem.
Well I dunno what to say then, unless you could help with when it sometimes freezes the animations before showing all the damage at once (it always happens with kill zone for example). I've been having very few problems running with the low settings I decided on.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 06, 2016, 04:49:46 PM
I'll wait until no more add-ons are released and it pops up at a good discount or in a bundle.
If that means waiting for XCOM 3, so be it. I'm not going to pay big money for something that launches with DLC.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 07, 2016, 02:55:55 AM
Finall installed and played. God, this was aweful!
not the game, the waiting time.
I'm not very far into the game but currently I like it.
I like that the game makes a lot references to the first game however, this is a double-edged sword. people who didn't play the first one won't get all the references and nods but old players will like how the first game is integrated into the second.
Also, I have a theory but this might not be true (again, I'm not deep into the game.
The ending of the first war was probably part of the simulations that you experienced while being captured from the aliens. The war happened but the end, where you won, never did. You were captured before and the aliens just suggested you that you've won in order to keep you under control.
Maybe the whole game was the simulation? That you play the game over and over again, winning (and failing) were part of it, you had to repeat the war simulation so the aliens can leech your war tactics.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 07, 2016, 02:13:03 PM
I've decided to have a go at the original xcom (since it'll actually work on my laptop) would it be worth xenonauts(the spiritual successor)  instead/as well as the original?.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 07, 2016, 02:22:30 PM
Oh lord, please do not attempt to play the original. It was legendary but now is very dated.

Xenonauts is a wonderful spiritual successor, and one of my top 5 games of all time. It's also on sale and was never very expensive to begin with. If you're at all a fan of the series, you'll love it.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 07, 2016, 04:24:19 PM
If you really want to play the original though, at least go with OpenXcom instead. Its at least more likely to work without a lot of effort involved in fixing it through xcomutils.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 07, 2016, 04:41:10 PM
Oh lord, please do not attempt to play the original. It was legendary but now is very dated.

Xenonauts is a wonderful spiritual successor, and one of my top 5 games of all time. It's also on sale and was never very expensive to begin with. If you're at all a fan of the series, you'll love it.
I haven't played any of the xcoms before that sounds like a good place to start though thanks.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 07, 2016, 06:37:44 PM
Good lord, I tried the first mission (after the tutorial mission, which is completely scripted and removes player choice) on normal (veteran) difficulty, and got absolutely stomped.

This is coming from a person with probably around 100 hours spread across games in the XCOM franchise (though to be fair I've never actually beaten any of them).

In XCOM 2, they just do not pull any punches. You're already getting mind controlled in the first mission, and oh by the way did we mention zombies?

I absolutely love how brutal they've made it. I may have to swallow my pride and play it on "easy" for the first playthrough. Beginner in XCOM is like "Impossible" difficulty in most other games.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 07, 2016, 06:50:14 PM
Good lord, I tried the first mission (after the tutorial mission, which is completely scripted and removes player choice) on normal (veteran) difficulty, and got absolutely stomped.

This is coming from a person with probably around 100 hours spread across games in the XCOM franchise (though to be fair I've never actually beaten any of them).

In XCOM 2, they just do not pull any punches. You're already getting mind controlled in the first mission, and oh by the way did we mention zombies?

I absolutely love how brutal they've made it. I may have to swallow my pride and play it on "easy" for the first playthrough. Beginner in XCOM is like "Impossible" difficulty in most other games.
Which one do you mean? The one wit the energy thing? Or the one where you find the ADVENT stun soldiers (I think it was the one where you have to protect some transmitter or something like that)?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 07, 2016, 06:55:50 PM
Good lord, I tried the first mission (after the tutorial mission, which is completely scripted and removes player choice) on normal (veteran) difficulty, and got absolutely stomped.

This is coming from a person with probably around 100 hours spread across games in the XCOM franchise (though to be fair I've never actually beaten any of them).

In XCOM 2, they just do not pull any punches. You're already getting mind controlled in the first mission, and oh by the way did we mention zombies?

I absolutely love how brutal they've made it. I may have to swallow my pride and play it on "easy" for the first playthrough. Beginner in XCOM is like "Impossible" difficulty in most other games.

Just wait, once you have gotten the tactics down on what they throw at you, they will have brand new bullshit around the corner.

Yeah, that first mission is tough since you don't have a lot of tools at that point. Ironically it seems easier if you don't do the tutorial.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 07, 2016, 08:12:04 PM
I've decided to have a go at the original xcom (since it'll actually work on my laptop) would it be worth xenonauts(the spiritual successor)  instead/as well as the original?.
I definitely recommend Xenonauts instead. The original is absolutely a great game, but it has not aged well. The interface is super clunky, there's pitfalls in research and it's overall extremely clunky to play.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 07, 2016, 08:44:24 PM
Yeah, the original game isn't very intuitive to use. It is a really good game but the controls are aweful and some gameplay features aren't nice to use (like collecting every single item per hand in missions otherwise it's lost).
Xenonauts did at least a good job in discarding the most annoying parts of the game while still maintaining the core gameplay.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Cyborg on February 07, 2016, 09:00:11 PM
I probably won't get this game. I heard they implemented some time or turn limits on the missions. Part of the problem with the original was the insane random number generator for the chance to hit. Don't know that I want to do that now that the game is forcing limits.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 07, 2016, 09:23:35 PM
Yeah, there are turn limits but I don't feel forced in any way. There are already mods that deactivate the turn timer btw.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 07, 2016, 11:00:17 PM
 may I ask how that extreme that random number generator for this game is? I just did the first mission of xeno earlier and it didn't seem to obnoxious kind of at the level at which I'm willing to cope with really.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 07, 2016, 11:37:53 PM
may I ask how that extreme that random number generator for this game is? I just did the first mission of xeno earlier and it didn't seem to obnoxious kind of at the level at which I'm willing to cope with really.

I don't really know what this question means. The RNG just works based on the percentage given. No different than rolling a 100 sided die and comparing it to a percent.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 08, 2016, 12:02:11 AM
may I ask how that extreme that random number generator for this game is? I just did the first mission of xeno earlier and it didn't seem to obnoxious kind of at the level at which I'm willing to cope with really.
It seems random, like Mick says. Sometimes you get screwed, but your soldiers are meant to die, it's all part of the game. Even if you lose an entire squad, you can still win the greater campaign. You can also retreat if things start to get too hairy.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 08, 2016, 01:49:44 AM
You can also retreat if things start to get too hairy.
This. Is important. Not so much if you reload too often (me), but for people actually doing things ironman, its not EU. Theres only a couple missions where the evac point is already set, for the rest you can and are allowed to run away from fights. Just make sure you bring all your soldiers gear with you if possible, otherwise you'll lose it.

Also, you can extend the timers, delay the timers while you're in stealth (in exchange for slightly shorter timers), or just remove them entirely. All three are available mod options.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 08, 2016, 02:26:34 AM
So I had a grenadier get hit by a sectoid's psychic attack and panic. She ran into distant cover, took a snap shot at the sectoid, and killed it with a critical hit.

Sometimes the RNG just works, you know?


I'm finding that the missions themselves are easier, but the geoscape is harder. I'm currently playing on commander difficulty, and most missions have been easier for me than playing EW on hard. The ones that aren't though, those absolutely wreck me. I'm not playing on ironman so I'll save-scum total squad wipes though.

As for the mission timer, I like it a lot. The game would be too easy I feel if I could just slowly crawl forward in Overwatch like in EW. The timer makes it a lot more tense and exciting; I had a VIP mission that I got out on the very last possible turn. Reinforcements came in and were camping the evac zone, had to cut through them as hastily as I could. There was a great moment where one of my rangers took out the last trooper with her sword and roped out right afterwards, I like to imagine that she reached down and sliced him up as she was ascending into the Skyranger.


The geoscape though, that's a whole different piece of work. I thought I could get away with putting off the blacksite mission until I had some good equipment, but now the Avatar Project is two steps from completion. Lesson learned, get Radio ASAP. Also get the Advanced Warfare Center or whatever it is early on. The way health/armor works now means that soldiers get wounded far more often. That really screwed me over when my high-ranking troops are out of the action for nineteen(!) days. Probably contributed to my delay on the blacksite, as I wanted my full A-team to be ready when I took it on.

I love how much stronger everything feels. Mutons and Sectoids are scary now. Codexes are straight up murder machines but they're so satisfying to kill. (Recently figured out that you can kill enemies by making them fall to their deaths when I grenaded a Codex on a rooftop and it fell down two stories). I'm terrified to see what new things the aliens will reveal at every corner.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 08, 2016, 03:11:24 AM
What I hate the most about XCOM 2 are the loading times. Everythign else is finde but the loading times seem too high. Esspecially when you just coem back from a mission to your HQ. Why does it load so long? I would except this from the missions, but the loading times of the missions are faster.
I don't seem to be the only one, that has this problem, Nerf Now even dedicated a whole comic strip to this problem right after the game came out: http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1743
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 08, 2016, 06:35:34 AM
Wait, there's  a turn limit on ALL missions now? Not sure I'm a fan of that.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 08, 2016, 07:43:37 AM
Wait, there's  a turn limit on ALL missions now? Not sure I'm a fan of that.
No one seems to, whenever you ask someone what he does not like about XCOM 2, you will most likely get "The turn limit on missions".
This was introduced to counter the very popular overwatch exploit in the first game. Players set everyone on Overwatch after each move and when someone finally found the aliens, they got shot by all the soldiers on overwatch to death, making  alot of fights trivial before they even began. The turn limit shall now speed up the gameplay, so they won't turtle in a chokepoint and wait for the aliens to come.

Here are two mods, that might interest you:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616857663
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616964599

The first increases the amount of turns you have in each mission (about 4 turns more at hand), so you still have a limit but don't have to rush so fast.
The second disables timers entirely except some story related missions and some special mission type where they are needed. Bot mods will still allow you to play the game normaly and with achievments on.
There is also one mod that tweaks the game that turns count only down while you are visble to the enemy, so as long as you stay hidden, no time passes.
I have none of the mods installes, so I cannot confirm if they are reliable.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 08, 2016, 08:00:58 AM
The turn limit remove while concealed sounds clever. Although the concealement mechanic is just a tad bit contrived. But whatever, I'll probably not get XCOM2 anytime soon so I'll have time to look over my options. ^^ Thanks for the links though.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 08, 2016, 12:53:03 PM
There is not a turn limit on all missions. In fact, the harder missions in the game have no turn limit at all.

The ones that are there are really not much of an issue. One type is a limit to complete an objective (hack a thing, destroy a thing), so you get infinite time after that objective is complete. In both cases, you can complete the objective remotely (specialist can hack from a huge distance, destroy objectives can simply be shot at with always 100% hit rate). Honestly, I don't know how people are having trouble with these.

The other type is less common and is more difficult, that's where you have to extract a VIP. You get a longer turn limit but you have to extract and leave within it. However, in these mission you do not have to kill all the aliens, once you get to the extraction point you finish.

These are part of the more or less 'standard' mission pool. The real challenges come from the blacksites, which have no timer at all (at least I haven't seen one yet).
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 08, 2016, 01:31:34 PM
There is not a turn limit on all missions. In fact, the harder missions in the game have no turn limit at all.

The ones that are there are really not much of an issue. One type is a limit to complete an objective (hack a thing, destroy a thing), so you get infinite time after that objective is complete. In both cases, you can complete the objective remotely (specialist can hack from a huge distance, destroy objectives can simply be shot at with always 100% hit rate). Honestly, I don't know how people are having trouble with these.

The other type is less common and is more difficult, that's where you have to extract a VIP. You get a longer turn limit but you have to extract and leave within it. However, in these mission you do not have to kill all the aliens, once you get to the extraction point you finish.

These are part of the more or less 'standard' mission pool. The real challenges come from the blacksites, which have no timer at all (at least I haven't seen one yet).
Now I'm getting conflicting messages. You're saying some missions are not limited, while
No one seems to, whenever you ask someone what he does not like about XCOM 2, you will most likely get "The turn limit on missions".
This was introduced to counter the very popular overwatch exploit in the first game. Players set everyone on Overwatch after each move and when someone finally found the aliens, they got shot by all the soldiers on overwatch to death, making  alot of fights trivial before they even began. The turn limit shall now speed up the gameplay, so they won't turtle in a chokepoint and wait for the aliens to come.
says they all are.

Wut?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 08, 2016, 01:43:08 PM
It's simple, anyone saying that all missions have a turn limit is either misinformed or lying.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 08, 2016, 02:17:02 PM
Some have timers, and some do not.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 08, 2016, 02:43:00 PM
It's simple, anyone saying that all missions have a turn limit is either misinformed or lying.
Gotcha. Then it's similar to how XCOMEU was then and I didn't mind that much.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on February 08, 2016, 04:16:36 PM
So... seems that the general consensus on this one is positive?  As opposed to yet another game that's dumbed down and screwed up or filled with microtransactions?

Granted, that timed-missions thing sounds kinda irritating... but other than that it sounds pretty good from what's being said here.

I need to go and actually finish the first game though (not the original, I mean Enemy Unknown and the expansion).  Aint played that in awhile, not really for any specific reason...
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 08, 2016, 04:21:43 PM
may I ask how that extreme that random number generator for this game is? I just did the first mission of xeno earlier and it didn't seem to obnoxious kind of at the level at which I'm willing to cope with really.
It seems random, like Mick says. Sometimes you get screwed, but your soldiers are meant to die, it's all part of the game. Even if you lose an entire squad, you can still win the greater campaigin. You can also retreat if things start to get too hairy.
I'm not entirely sure what I meant by that my self I guess that just a product of it being past midnight what I meant to ask was how much can you alter the rng on things like hit chance I've seen more video of that game since yesterday though so I think I'm satisfied there.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 08, 2016, 04:42:16 PM
It's interesting, because I find the turn limits to be my favorite ADDITION to the game, as compared to either XCOM:EU or Xenonauts.

Once again, before there was just no reason not to play as cautiously as possible, slowly leap-frogging from cover to cover in a grueling process that could sometimes take 10-15 minutes before you even encountered the first enemy. Even after you defeated the first squad of enemies, it could be another 10-15 minutes before you found the next squad. It just wasn't fun, but the game was balanced around the idea that you were doing that, especially on the harder difficulties, so the slow, slogging pace of the game was the norm.

With the turn-limits and the new conceal mechanics, it takes a fraction of the time to get into the action (by necessity), but the game is balanced around this, so you're less likely to get trolled in the process.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on February 08, 2016, 04:53:40 PM
It's interesting, because I find the turn limits to be my favorite ADDITION to the game, as compared to either XCOM:EU or Xenonauts.

Once again, before there was just no reason not to play as cautiously as possible, slowly leap-frogging from cover to cover in a grueling process that could sometimes take 10-15 minutes before you even encountered the first enemy. Even after you defeated the first squad of enemies, it could be another 10-15 minutes before you found the next squad. It just wasn't fun, but the game was balanced around the idea that you were doing that, especially on the harder difficulties, so the slow, slogging pace of the game was the norm.

With the turn-limits and the new conceal mechanics, it takes a fraction of the time to get into the action (by necessity), but the game is balanced around this, so you're less likely to get trolled in the process.

I'm curious, how exactly did they balance the game around it?

In the first game I always found that the slow approach was the ONLY approach, because aggressive movement just got you killed instantly by unseen RNG deathrays to the face.  You either took it cautiously, or you lost.

Did they do something so that that ISNT the case now?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 08, 2016, 04:58:16 PM
In XCOM:EW the idea was that taking a speedy approach to a mission would get you more MELD.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 08, 2016, 05:08:02 PM
It's interesting, because I find the turn limits to be my favorite ADDITION to the game, as compared to either XCOM:EU or Xenonauts.

Once again, before there was just no reason not to play as cautiously as possible, slowly leap-frogging from cover to cover in a grueling process that could sometimes take 10-15 minutes before you even encountered the first enemy. Even after you defeated the first squad of enemies, it could be another 10-15 minutes before you found the next squad. It just wasn't fun, but the game was balanced around the idea that you were doing that, especially on the harder difficulties, so the slow, slogging pace of the game was the norm.

With the turn-limits and the new conceal mechanics, it takes a fraction of the time to get into the action (by necessity), but the game is balanced around this, so you're less likely to get trolled in the process.

I'm curious, how exactly did they balance the game around it?

In the first game I always found that the slow approach was the ONLY approach, because aggressive movement just got you killed instantly by unseen RNG deathrays to the face.  You either took it cautiously, or you lost.

Did they do something so that that ISNT the case now?

Concealment allows you to start the mission with much more aggressive movement. It means that the first enemies seen won't 'activate' until you reveal yourself. While concealed there is really no reason to do the crawl/overwatch strategy.

Rangers with scout talents are able to stay concealed after the reveal (as long as they didn't attack). They also get an option to re-conceal. I find this invaluable because it allows you to scout out where the next group is, and activate them on your terms (instead of stumbling into them using your last movement point).

XCOM1 didn't have these tools, so crawling forward at turtle pace was the best option. I enjoyed XCOM1 more when I used mecs, because I would basically use them as brute force scouts who would rush forward and take all the hits while the rest of my team setup.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 08, 2016, 08:00:14 PM
MECs could also punch aliens in the face effectively. Worked better than the flamethrower did too.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 08, 2016, 08:26:53 PM
I like the weapon attachment system in this game. A big improvment to the previous game.
The weapon collection of the last game were about three different weapon tiers (that were just stronger, so you had no reason to keep the older ones) and the different weapon types were tied to the soldier classes anyway.
While the weapon types are still tied to the soldier class, the attachment system gives you at least some amount of control how to build the soldier. Also, Instakill attachments are cool  >D
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 08, 2016, 09:54:28 PM
may I ask how well balanced psionics are in this game? funnily enough I haven't seen any footage of those at all.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 08, 2016, 09:59:12 PM
may I ask how well balanced psionics are in this game? funnily enough I haven't seen any footage of those at all.
Psi Operative video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjE_JSqLt0Y)
With enough time you can pick up every one of those skill on one psi wizard. Or two. Or (if you somehow had time for it) three! (or x, where x is how long you bother waiting because you modded the avatar project to be very slow or not there) They can also wear a WAR suit and use a plasma rifle, which means you have an armored psionic soldier with a rocket launcher and a grenade at minimum. (EXO suit and rifle for lower tech levels)
At maximum, you have a psi statuses-immune, fire/poison/acid/explosions-immune armored psionic soldier, with a plasma rifle, grenade and a blaster launcher. Who can survive a single lethal hit automatically (once per mission), and keeps the soldiers near him free of psi effects as well. The Psi-op can also do armor-ignoring damage, mind control a single enemy permanently, stall an enemy for a turn by putting them in a damage-proof bubble (or protect an ally in said bubble) and give someone else an extra action.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 08, 2016, 10:59:45 PM
I haven't got my hands on Psionics myself so far (the new resource management system takes some time to learn. It took some time until i realized that you have to collect the montlhly fundings yourself this time instant of getting them instantly added to your balance) but I kinda find the Sectoids too op.
They were kind of forgetable in EU but got a small comeback in EW when they introduced Mechtoids (Sectoids inside a Mech) who can get a powerful PSI Shield from their allied Sectoids.
In XCOM 2 however Sectoids got a big buff, maybe too big. They can panic soldiers, they can control them, they can irritate them, so they loose movement range and aiming power, they have (compared to other early enemies at this point) tons of HP and to make it worse, they can raise already dead people (enemies as well as your own soldiers) as PSI zombies (who act exactly liek the zombies from the same game except they won't burst into a scary alien spider thing).
In my opinion this is WAY too much for a single enemy. Especially since this is an early game enemy that appears in the first missions (the first was in my second mission I played).
Of course you can resist almost any of it as long as your soldiers have enough willpower (which they won't have so early in the game) or you enough mindshields (which you won't have because resources).
At least, when you killt he Sectoid, you will end all ill effects he caused and unlike the first game you can instantly use the mind washed soldier again in the turn you saved him. In the first game you had to wait another turn, leaving him in a particular unsafe spot.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 09, 2016, 12:21:50 AM
The sectoids generally don't do anything threatening on their first turn though. They either make a psi-zombie (which has no ranged attack), or they mindspin someone with a chance to panic them. They also take extra damage from melee attacks. All of their psi-abilities can be cancelled out with a flashbang grenade. (the latter also applies to codex. If you aren't gonig to kill a codex that turn, flashbang it before it becomes a bigger threat)

The threat early game is not the sectoid unless you intend to play on legend where they apparently have extra hp from the start, its focusing on them instead of ADVENT. Kill the officers/stun lancers/troopers first before they kill/KO your team, let the sectoid waste it turn. Then kill it.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 09, 2016, 12:45:07 AM
In XCOM 2 however Sectoids got a big buff, maybe too big. They can panic soldiers, they can control them, they can irritate them, so they loose movement range and aiming power, they have (compared to other early enemies at this point) tons of HP and to make it worse, they can raise already dead people (enemies as well as your own soldiers) as PSI zombies (who act exactly liek the zombies from the same game except they won't burst into a scary alien spider thing).
In my opinion this is WAY too much for a single enemy.

Get later in the game, and you'll wish every group was 5-6 Sectoids instead.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 09, 2016, 08:12:06 AM
Sectoids are tough in the first few missions you see them in, but they're trivial after that. Seriously, one of my favorite enemies to face. They almost never attack with anything that deals damage, and the worst they can do is mind control, which is rare, can be resisted, and can be undone by killing the sectoid.

Fought an Archon today. Shen says something about them not really being much better than what her father faced. I was about to ask what she meant, but then I decided to look it up myself and found that they come from Floaters. That's really something.

Supposedly Mimic beacons are really good, but I haven't had much success with them. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 09, 2016, 11:32:46 AM
Sectoids are tough in the first few missions you see them in, but they're trivial after that. Seriously, one of my favorite enemies to face. They almost never attack with anything that deals damage, and the worst they can do is mind control, which is rare, can be resisted, and can be undone by killing the sectoid.

Fought an Archon today. Shen says something about them not really being much better than what her father faced. I was about to ask what she meant, but then I decided to look it up myself and found that they come from Floaters. That's really something.

Supposedly Mimic beacons are really good, but I haven't had much success with them. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong.
yea there appearance was changed so that the populace wouldn't freak the hell out every time they saw them out and about doing their business.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 09, 2016, 12:14:46 PM
Supposedly Mimic beacons are really good, but I haven't had much success with them. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

They are basically "make the enemy skip their next turn" if you use them right. Put them behind high cover, but where all the bad guys can see them.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Draco18s on February 09, 2016, 02:30:09 PM
I don't have the game, but this came through a group chat this morning, thought I'd share

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/12657778_1103960719637998_1477855126481002071_o.jpg)

Only a 65% chance to hit?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 09, 2016, 02:45:17 PM

Only a 65% chance to hit?

I have zero problem with this.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 09, 2016, 03:19:42 PM
That picture (probably quite intentionally) hides the soldier's status bar. There are various negative status effects which lower an ally or enemy unit's chance to hit, such as disoriented, poisoned, etc.

In a normal situation, at that range, and having flanked the enemy, the hit chance would be 85% or higher.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on February 09, 2016, 03:25:13 PM
I don't have the game, but this came through a group chat this morning, thought I'd share

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/12657778_1103960719637998_1477855126481002071_o.jpg)

Only a 65% chance to hit?

This was one of my big problems with the original and honestly most of the reason why I eventually lost interest; the hit percentages usually just didn't make any sense.  It ends up being "fake difficulty" more than anything else, not to mention REALLY unintuitive.  It almost makes the game just feel like there was alot of laziness involved in making it.  ....or too much obsession on graphics, not enough on making things work.

I'd almost forgotten about that problem actually.  Hm.  Gonna rethink the possible purchase on this one as it's likely STUFFED with that issue.  Hard to say.  Maybe time to watch some playthrough vids before buying.


That picture (probably quite intentionally) hides the soldier's status bar. There are various negative status effects which lower an ally or enemy unit's chance to hit, such as disoriented, poisoned, etc.

In a normal situation, at that range, and having flanked the enemy, the hit chance would be 85% or higher.

It still doesnt make any sense though.  The gun is right up the thing's nose;  the only way to miss, logically, would be if the bullets blinked out of existence just before leaving the gun.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 09, 2016, 03:32:53 PM
It's a turn based tactical game, so lots of things are an abstraction. It's not like the alien would just stand there starting down the barrel of the gun waiting for the dude to line up his shot.

And with such a low percentage shot, it's extremely likely the soldier has a debuff that harms his aim percent.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 09, 2016, 04:00:21 PM
Also he should've brought a sword with him :P
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 09, 2016, 04:09:48 PM
Never bring a gun to a sword fight.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Draco18s on February 09, 2016, 04:27:57 PM
That picture (probably quite intentionally) hides the soldier's status bar. There are various negative status effects which lower an ally or enemy unit's chance to hit, such as disoriented, poisoned, etc.

Oh, I'm sure it was tweaked somehow. I was just amused by it (and it came through without any original context). Even 85% would look wrong at that distance, though.  :p
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 09, 2016, 04:56:34 PM
That picture (probably quite intentionally) hides the soldier's status bar. There are various negative status effects which lower an ally or enemy unit's chance to hit, such as disoriented, poisoned, etc.

Oh, I'm sure it was tweaked somehow. I was just amused by it (and it came through without any original context). Even 85% would look wrong at that distance, though.  :p
to be fair realistically speaking that would be a very awkward range to be using an assault rifle in fact if xcom had realistic weapon recoil the hit chance there would be really low probably.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 09, 2016, 05:29:41 PM
Take into account that the screen in question is simply the tactical view, where as Mick stated, all angles and ranges are simply an abstraction for the likelihood of actually making or missing a shot. When the player actually decides to attack, it switches to a little cinematic cutscene, where the soldier actually raises the weapon from a lowered position, and at that point the alien enemy isn't just standing there with a gun in his face as there is an attempt to dodge.

Keep in mind that assault rifles can still miss at close ranges, and as rooster stated, a range too close can actually make hitting the target more difficult. This is one of the reasons the M-16, which had been the mainstay rifle of the U.S. military since Vietnam was swapped out en masse for the shorter barreled M4 during Desert Storm and other operations in the middle east. The M-16, though more accurate at long ranges, was unwieldy for close combat and room clearing. Shotguns obviously are even better for this, and when used at close distances in XCOM2, the hit chance approaches 100% (if not actually 100%).
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 09, 2016, 06:17:49 PM
At point blank range I have most of the time 100% hit chance (with shotguns however).
I know that a lot of people have a problem with the hit chance in the XCOM series but seriously, it is a strategy game with a strong RNG system and this is widely known. I bet most this people wouldn't hit a trash can with a ball of paper if the can would be right in front of them.
I'm also not a fan of 100% secure systems, I always need a small chance that something may go bad just for the thrill of surprise. This may go both ways, I had aliens that stood right behind my soldiers (flanked) and couldn't hit them.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Draco18s on February 09, 2016, 06:43:34 PM
Oh sure, I'm not a fan of 100% success either.
The stealth game I'm working on right now uses a cumulative gaussian distribution for its probability curve. Even with a +3 net bonus over the enemies, that's only ~97%

(For reference, +3 is the base bonus given for sneaking about, so the ai won't recognize you as an intruder if you do end up in their line of sight briefly. Checks are made every couple of seconds, so being "evenly matched" has a high bias towards the player. As soon as you are doing something suspicious though, there's a bonus on the other side).
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on February 09, 2016, 07:14:42 PM
After some video watching, that concealment mechanic looks muuuuuuch better than the "slowverwatch" from the first game.  Though the timer thing looks a tad obnoxious.  But not having to stop and wait every 2 steps looks pretty good.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 09, 2016, 07:21:53 PM
Timer is easily modded up/down/around/away.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 09, 2016, 07:46:58 PM
Oh sure, I'm not a fan of 100% success either.
The stealth game I'm working on right now uses a cumulative gaussian distribution for its probability curve. Even with a +3 net bonus over the enemies, that's only ~97%

(For reference, +3 is the base bonus given for sneaking about, so the ai won't recognize you as an intruder if you do end up in their line of sight briefly. Checks are made every couple of seconds, so being "evenly matched" has a high bias towards the player. As soon as you are doing something suspicious though, there's a bonus on the other side).
your making a stealth game? I'm actually kind of interested in that.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Draco18s on February 09, 2016, 08:17:21 PM
Mm. Bare beginnings still. Lot of Shadowrun and DeuxEx influence.

Mobile currently, but I could dig up some screen shots later.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 12, 2016, 10:07:29 AM
Holy cow, this game is so brutally difficult and I love it.

On the 4th mission of Normal difficulty (Ironman), it puts me up against *THIS*.

(http://i.imgur.com/N97tynN.jpg)

Only by incredible luck and some clever strategy was I able to make it out of that one without losing anybody, but holy god.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 12, 2016, 10:40:16 AM
23 enemies on the fourth mission? What kind of mission was this? oO
I never had so many enemies and I'm further into the game than you.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 12, 2016, 11:01:18 AM
23 enemies on the fourth mission? What kind of mission was this? oO
I never had so many enemies and I'm further into the game than you.

Black site missions have a lot more dudes in them. Kind of odd to do it four missions in (you can put it off quite a while to become stronger) but it looks like it ended well anyway.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 12, 2016, 05:44:48 PM
I assume the XCOM sniper went into a martial trance.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 12, 2016, 06:52:34 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/UGT24IX.jpg) (http://imgur.com/JZN06BI)

This was awesome.

I started the ambush with a rocket launcher that hit all of them, killing two codexes and one clone with the overwatch. Flashbanged the rest. My ranger then killed everything else in one go thanks to Reaper. A Chryssalid unburrowed and tried to attack her after that, but she took off half its health on its turn with bladestorm allowing another one of my troops to take it out.

That ranger then took out three chryssalids by the psi gate, again in one turn thanks to Reaper. Since she killed the last one, she was entitled to another attack, which she made with her shotgun against the gatekeeper. The hair trigger then activated and gave her another free shot. The gatekeeper then hit most of my squad (Except for the ranger, who I'm convinced by now is immortal) with an AOE attack, but thankfully I have the medic ability that heals the whole team, so that was no biggie.

The abilities like Reaper and Killzone that let you take more shots than you otherwise would are amazing. I had a specialist take three shots against one enemy in overwatch, sadly he didn't kill it because Dodge is BS.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 12, 2016, 07:01:37 PM
The abilities like Reaper and Killzone that let you take more shots than you otherwise would are amazing. I had a specialist take three shots against one enemy in overwatch, sadly he didn't kill it because Dodge is BS.
Yea, that's the AI's ultimate counter to any human ability: BullShot!

There was one time in XCOM:EU where a chryssalid ran up to a tile directly adjacent to my highest level soldier, who was a machine gunner. He had a 99% chance to hit. With a machine gun. At point blank range. As the greatest veteran of the war. And he missed. Didn't hit the thing with a single point of damage.

I lost something that day.

(which is why humans have the meta-ultimate-counter: reload!)
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 12, 2016, 07:35:19 PM
There was one time in XCOM:EU where a chryssalid ran up to a tile directly adjacent to my highest level soldier, who was a machine gunner. He had a 99% chance to hit. With a machine gun. At point blank range. As the greatest veteran of the war. And he missed. Didn't hit the thing with a single point of damage.
I missed two >90% hits yesterday. At that point I was feeling like my soldiers deserved to die if they were failing that badly. I know that 90% is no guarantee, but it sure *feels* like one.

I've been save-scumming a shameful amount, largely because it's my first playthrough and I want to see it to the end if possible. Plus I like approaching the tactical gameplay like a puzzle, trying different methods until something works. Losing a single guy is usually tolerable, but squadwipes or certain irreplaceable soldiers I'll reload for.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 12, 2016, 07:46:12 PM
I missed two >90% hits yesterday. At that point I was feeling like my soldiers deserved to die if they were failing that badly. I know that 90% is no guarantee, but it sure *feels* like one.
I prefer the determinism of something like Bionic Dues, but in general I'm ok with my guys missing even well-set-up shots.

But I would like tools/weapons/perk-choices/research-choices/whatever that let me better prepare for the contingency of a missed shot, and to be able to bend without breaking. If I'm commanding a company and only have one guy covering a spot, and he's got a bolt-action rifle then I deserve what I get if he misses (no matter how incredibly awesome a shot he is).

But if I've got a squad of six guys (so putting one guy on something is one sixth my total resources), and a dude with a fully automatic cannon at point blank range, I expect him to do something other than get turned into worm food because of one coin flip. Alternatively, if they're going to roll me a critical failure that hard, then give me the amusement of having said cannon blow up in the guy's face. Because the probability is similar. Bonus points if the explosion AOE takes out the chryssalid anyway.

I'd like to not savescum so much, but when so much is riding on individual rng rolls, it's my only natural defense mechanism :)

Perhaps the grenades and shotguns and whatever else address this; I haven't played this game yet.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 12, 2016, 07:53:14 PM
There was one time in XCOM:EU where a chryssalid ran up to a tile directly adjacent to my highest level soldier, who was a machine gunner. He had a 99% chance to hit. With a machine gun. At point blank range. As the greatest veteran of the war. And he missed. Didn't hit the thing with a single point of damage.
I missed two >90% hits yesterday. At that point I was feeling like my soldiers deserved to die if they were failing that badly. I know that 90% is no guarantee, but it sure *feels* like one.

I've been save-scumming a shameful amount, largely because it's my first playthrough and I want to see it to the end if possible. Plus I like approaching the tactical gameplay like a puzzle, trying different methods until something works. Losing a single guy is usually tolerable, but squadwipes or certain irreplaceable soldiers I'll reload for.
1 to be fair in real life hitting something skilled in melee  at point blank before it when for you would probably fail I think the better question would be why didn't he shoot it as it was running at him
 but still that definitely stings at least it wasn't to the magic of anti wall rounds that just accrued in my current xenonauts game
2 I usually only do that (at least I try to save scummings a bit of a bad habit for me) at the start of a mission and then use it if something super bullshity happened.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 07:56:50 PM
[I prefer the determinism of something like Bionic Dues

Yeah, same here.

Though, to be fair, something like BD tends to stuff everything ELSE with RNG to make up for it...
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 12, 2016, 08:00:41 PM
Though, to be fair, something like BD tends to stuff everything ELSE with RNG to make up for it...
Very true. AIW can be even nastier.

I just prefer situations where the giant steaming piles form the terrain, and you can see them coming and adapt (either your strategy, to win, or your expectations, to enjoy losing), versus "everything was going great until your guy forgot which end to point at the alien" situations :)
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 12, 2016, 08:09:38 PM
I prefer the determinism of something like Bionic Dues, but in general I'm ok with my guys missing even well-set-up shots.

But I would like tools/weapons/perk-choices/research-choices/whatever that let me better prepare for the contingency of a missed shot, and to be able to bend without breaking. If I'm commanding a company and only have one guy covering a spot, and he's got a bolt-action rifle then I deserve what I get if he misses (no matter how incredibly awesome a shot he is).

But if I've got a squad of six guys (so putting one guy on something is one sixth my total resources), and a dude with a fully automatic cannon at point blank range, I expect him to do something other than get turned into worm food because of one coin flip. Alternatively, if they're going to roll me a critical failure that hard, then give me the amusement of having said cannon blow up in the guy's face. Because the probability is similar. Bonus points if the explosion AOE takes out the chryssalid anyway.

I'd like to not savescum so much, but when so much is riding on individual rng rolls, it's my only natural defense mechanism :)

Perhaps the grenades and shotguns and whatever else address this; I haven't played this game yet.

That's what I like about XCOM 2, as it does indeed address this by providing ways to guarantee some kind of damage. The new grenadiers make explosives and heavy AOE weapons much more available, which will always do damage. Specialists can do pretty significant, 100% full damage via combat protocol* . Stocks on your weapons can add 1-2 damage even when you miss. Combine this with a repeater and you have a chance to instantly kill any enemy on a missed shot (heard this even works on final bosses, though I haven't gotten that far yet).

Generally these are best saved for finishing off low-health enemies, for when you absolutely need that guy dead and don't want to risk someone screwing up their effort at taking out the last few bars of health. Using them to remove overwatch or suppression is also a good option.

*without upgrades, this is 4-5 guaranteed damage vs. Robots, 2 vs. biological. I think it gets somewhere near eight to ten vs. robotic when you get advanced Gremlins.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 12, 2016, 08:16:18 PM
That's what I like about XCOM 2, as it does indeed address this by providing ways to guarantee some kind of damage.
Excellent! Definitely looking forward to playing this when I get time.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 12, 2016, 08:20:19 PM
There is an item that grants you at least 1 damage even if you miss. Perfect to finish off aliens that have only 1 hp left. There is no way you could screw this up.

I had a faceless (if this is the name in the english version) who attacked one of my soldiers. he killed the soldier and the nearby stun lance with the same AoE attack. Bonus points, this was on the upper floor, so he destroyed this as well and crashed down two floors, getting 4 damage for falling. I laughed really hard about this even if I lost one of my soldiers.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 12, 2016, 08:31:55 PM
I had a faceless (if this is the name in the english version) who attacked one of my soldiers. he killed the soldier and the nearby stun lance with the same AoE attack. Bonus points, this was on the upper floor, so he destroyed this as well and crashed down two floors, getting 4 damage for falling. I laughed really hard about this even if I lost one of my soldiers.
I remember when I found falling damage. A codex teleported to the top of a 2-story building so I lobbed a grenade at it. It broke the floor and caused the codex to fall all the way to the ground, killing it in one go. I'm glad I got that pleasant surprise instead of seeing it in action on my guys.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 12, 2016, 08:34:36 PM
Sounds like the terrain deformation is a lot better in this one too.

Brings back memories of the original, where I translated "stop the aliens from terrorizing City X" to "rocket launchers for everyone, leave a huge glass crater in the middle of City X".
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 12, 2016, 08:58:32 PM
Sounds like the terrain deformation is a lot better in this one too.

Brings back memories of the original, where I translated "stop the aliens from terrorizing City X" to "rocket launchers for everyone, leave a huge glass crater in the middle of City X".
If you give everyone an EXO suit (or a WAR suit), then everyone can, infact, have a rocket launcher, unlike in EU. So if you really need to blow up the map, 5 war suit grenadiers with the right perks and a medic in warden armor means at least 15 explosives from the grenadiers alone (1 x2 grenades, 1 rocket each), plus 6 extra grenades if you didn't give them other items instead, and a medkit in the medic's second item slot.

The downside is that you don't have any swordsmen or snipers in that squad (without increasing the squadsize via .ini edit), and your one medic needs to not get killed/panicked/mindcontrolled.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 12, 2016, 09:05:03 PM
Sounds like the terrain deformation is a lot better in this one too.

Brings back memories of the original, where I translated "stop the aliens from terrorizing City X" to "rocket launchers for everyone, leave a huge glass crater in the middle of City X".
If you give everyone an EXO suit (or a WAR suit), then everyone can, infact, have a rocket launcher, unlike in EU. So if you really need to blow up the map, 5 war suit grenadiers with the right perks and a medic in warden armor means at least 15 explosives from the grenadiers alone (1 x2 grenades, 1 rocket each), plus 6 extra grenades if you didn't give them other items instead, and a medkit in the medic's second item slot.

The downside is that you don't have any swordsmen or snipers in that squad (without increasing the squadsize via .ini edit), and your one medic needs to not get killed/panicked/mindcontrolled.
that sounds absolutely hilarious.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Draco18s on February 13, 2016, 03:29:55 PM
[I prefer the determinism of something like Bionic Dues
Yeah, same here.

"Me too."
I prefer combat to be more predictable.  I don't mind an element of chance, but this feels too swingy.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 13, 2016, 03:33:28 PM
I prefer combat to be more predictable.  I don't mind an element of chance, but this feels too swingy.
It does sound like you can make build choices for predictable damage, though. In theory, that's enough for me.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 14, 2016, 02:47:22 AM
Generally speaking, I enjoy the fact that the XCOM games, this being no exception, mirror reality in that most attacks are percentage driven, based on the situation.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the time that chance is still 100%, like a shotgun at close range or a sniper against a target out in the open. Sometimes you just have to manufacture your "luck", either by blowing out the enemy's cover, or with the aforementioned weapon upgrades and guaranteed damage mechanics the game has to offer.

Either way, there is still an aspect of luck, and in that way it mirrors reality. I believe the game is designed in such a way that you are expected to lose a squad member every few missions, and/or to have occasional mission failures. It wouldn't be much fun if there were no chance of failure. Trust me, I tried playing on Easy and it got boring fast.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 14, 2016, 10:43:22 AM
Now that people have played it:

I played a lot of XCOM:EU/EW, later tried The Long War, and found that I couldn't play the vanilla games any more because that mod just made everything so much better.

Can I still have fun with XCOM2 or would it be better for me to wait for the DLCs to be done and the modders to get to work?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 14, 2016, 04:25:48 PM
I never played Long War but XCOM 2 is a lot more complex than the first game. There are more different mission types, weapons can be customized with different moduls to your fitting, there are different ammunition and grenade types (something I found in XCOM EU lacking), more different aliens. However, the weapon collection itself does again not seem very big but this can somewhat be excused because you can fit them with modules to personalize them. Thereare soem cool modules like "does always damage, even when missing" or "has a small chance for instakill".
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 14, 2016, 06:17:37 PM
I played Long War, which was a great mod,  and I would say that XCOM 2 is still leaps and bounds superior. Not only in the game mechanics themselves, but in the pacing of the battles and the campaign, which really moves itself right along in a very impressive way. Long War was intentionally... Well long. And there's no problem with that, but the game could often get bogged down with grinding or intensely difficult missions that took incredible amounts of caution and time.

XCOM 2, more than any other reboot of the original series, really refines the formula. It keeps what makes it great, it removes most of the pointless baggage.

Some diehard purists may be put off by this, but it seems like most people have been very happy with how the formula was redefined. If for no other reason than creating a sequel which was just more of the same would have been somewhat silly.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 14, 2016, 07:31:43 PM
Thereare soem cool modules like "does always damage, even when missing" or "has a small chance for instakill".

Those combo well together because the insta-kill can proc off the guaranteed damage. If you use poison ammo rounds, each poison damage will also proc an insta-kill roll.

Insta-kills are extremely helpful against end-game aliens that have like a billion hit points.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 14, 2016, 08:51:30 PM
I played Long War, which was a great mod,  and I would say that XCOM 2 is still leaps and bounds superior. Not only in the game mechanics themselves, but in the pacing of the battles and the campaign, which really moves itself right along in a very impressive way. Long War was intentionally... Well long. And there's no problem with that, but the game could often get bogged down with grinding or intensely difficult missions that took incredible amounts of caution and time.

XCOM 2, more than any other reboot of the original series, really refines the formula. It keeps what makes it great, it removes most of the pointless baggage.

Some diehard purists may be put off by this, but it seems like most people have been very happy with how the formula was redefined. If for no other reason than creating a sequel which was just more of the same would have been somewhat silly.
to be fair purists have probably either just kept playing the original xcom or xenonauts I doubt they would have stuck around after the first remake.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 14, 2016, 09:23:37 PM
To be honest that whole possible-insta-kill and guaranteed-damage business sounds very gamey, gimmicky and immersion-breaking.
But then again, the character customisation and the new guns all look completely ridiculous.

But that's just from seeing pictures. Has immersion been downgraded?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 14, 2016, 09:47:16 PM
What do you refer to, when you say "immersion"?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 14, 2016, 10:11:09 PM
To be honest that whole possible-insta-kill and guaranteed-damage business sounds very gamey, gimmicky and immersion-breaking.
But then again, the character customisation and the new guns all look completely ridiculous.

But that's just from seeing pictures. Has immersion been downgraded?

Hardly. Only a few of the options are silly, like the monocle. Most of them are cool and very befitting a guerrilla resistance force. While the end-game tech is all fancy, it's no more outlandish than what was in the first reboot game. In the early game, with the Resistance Warrior pre-order pack, I was able to make my guys look like something out of the French Resistance during WWII, which was awesome.

In my opinion, the whole resistance theme makes a lot more sense than what was going on in EU, and so I'd actually say that the game is more immersive. Making contact with local resistance forces and being the ones attacking from stealth, taking what you can from the aliens is better than the arbitrary mechanics in EU.

As for the guaranteed damage, also not really. The insta-kills are rare (the absolute best you can get is 15%, and those mods are scarce late-game items) and the guaranteed damage is trivial. Mostly you give it to lower-ranked soldiers whose Aim stats suck so that they're not totally useless and can possibly land the killing blow on an alien and rank up a little faster.

The only really significant damage guarantees are grenades/explosives (which were almost always guaranteed damage in EU anyway), heavy weapons, and an ability for the Grenadier to expend a lot of ammunition in exchange for 100% hit chance.  Those are hardly immersion-breaking.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 14, 2016, 10:25:51 PM
Well, in XCOM:EW/EU all the tech was pretty accessible to imagination. You handled most of the game with ballistic weapons and explosives, followed by direct energy weapons. The aliens had weird plasma weapons and you'd later get them too, but that was pretty much the strangest thing. That, and all the auxiliary equipment, always followed simple patterns that are known in the real world. Obviously within an abstract framework that most games use (I somewhat hate the concept of hit points), but we're so used to that...anyways, in The Long War you can modify your weapons in a number of ways: Accuracy, magazine size, AP ammo and similar things. All reasonable enough. There's also some stranger stuff like boosting damage on beam weapons, or increasing critical hit chance...but it's still something proportional, and fitting to the mental framework of the whole system.

But firearms that are guaranteed to deal damage, or have a situation-independent probability of instantly killing anything from the smallest to the largest foe?
That kind of mathematical black magic really itches. Doubly so if the items in question are a "repeater" and a "stock". The what? How is that supposed to work? Is this the game design way of saying "phug anything resembling coherent world design, have some game mechanics!"? Even discounting the immersion factor, how is this supposed to work out for game mechanics? These bonuses are completely disproportionate to the nature of the weapon, and put immense value on just being able to fire as often as possible.

And I still can't get over the implications of such technology. Why train expert soldiers, why give them a variety of weapons? Why not make weapons with larger ammo pools and higher rates of fire in order to better exploit the insta-kill potential? The projectiles don't have to individually hit or penetrate enemy armour, it'll be sufficient for them to go in the approximate direction of the enemy. It's pointless to have big guns or accurate shooters, so just send out a hundred redshirts in a 19th century line formation and have them spray wildly in any direction the enemy may be in.

Think further! Why have artillery, tanks, cruise missiles and guided bombs? The wars of the future will be fought with clouds of tiny bullet-lets...and stocks. And "repeaters".

Alright, I know it's just a game. But that's silly.

I just had a skim through the XCOM2 wikis, and I can already see that I won't be liking it. Maybe it's for the wrong reasons, but the realistic-ish immersion factor provided by The Long War isn't there, whereas a much more game-y "just because" mindset seems to be more prevalent. Shame.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 14, 2016, 10:53:41 PM
Well, in XCOM:EW/EU all the tech was pretty accessible to imagination. You handled most of the game with ballistic weapons and explosives, followed by direct energy weapons. The aliens had weird plasma weapons and you'd later get them too, but that was pretty much the strangest thing. That, and all the auxiliary equipment, always followed simple patterns that are known in the real world. Obviously within an abstract framework that most games use (I somewhat hate the concept of hit points), but we're so used to that...anyways, in The Long War you can modify your weapons in a number of ways: Accuracy, magazine size, AP ammo and similar things. All reasonable enough. There's also some stranger stuff like boosting damage on beam weapons, or increasing critical hit chance...but it's still something proportional, and fitting to the mental framework of the whole system.

But firearms that are guaranteed to deal damage, or have a situation-independent probability of instantly killing anything from the smallest to the largest foe?
That kind of mathematical black magic really itches. Doubly so if the items in question are a "repeater" and a "stock". The what? How is that supposed to work? Is this the game design way of saying "phug anything resembling coherent world design, have some game mechanics!"? Even discounting the immersion factor, how is this supposed to work out for game mechanics? These bonuses are completely disproportionate to the nature of the weapon, and put immense value on just being able to fire as often as possible.

And I still can't get over the implications of such technology. Why train expert soldiers, why give them a variety of weapons? Why not make weapons with larger ammo pools and higher rates of fire in order to better exploit the insta-kill potential? The projectiles don't have to individually hit or penetrate enemy armour, it'll be sufficient for them to go in the approximate direction of the enemy. It's pointless to have big guns or accurate shooters, so just send out a hundred redshirts in a 19th century line formation and have them spray wildly in any direction the enemy may be in.

Think further! Why have artillery, tanks, cruise missiles and guided bombs? The wars of the future will be fought with clouds of tiny bullet-lets...and stocks. And "repeaters".

Alright, I know it's just a game. But that's silly.

I just had a skim through the XCOM2 wikis, and I can already see that I won't be liking it. Maybe it's for the wrong reasons, but the realistic-ish immersion factor provided by The Long War isn't there, whereas a much more game-y "just because" mindset seems to be more prevalent. Shame.

Well, you do you, I guess. I understand the weird disconnect between the names of mods and their function, like how a stock adds damage on a miss, but that doesn't affect immersion for me at all. In terms of the actual mechanics, I don't see how a chance to insta-kill is any less immersive than a critical hit. You got a good shot off and damaged something that destroyed the enemy in a single shot.

I mean, things in XCOM have always been way more durable than they should be, what with the hit points you mentioned hating. You shoot a guy point blank, he's not going to just stand there and take it, he's going to die. In one shot. As far as I can tell without knowing the devs' intent, that's what the insta-kill represents. Get a good shot off and hit a real tank in its ammunition load and it could easily be rendered combat-innefective, lose its crew, or otherwise be destroyed in one hit. The weird stuff like insta-kill being triggered by poison's DoT is indeed strange, but that is a very specific and fringe case.

The modded stocks could be explained that they make the weapon easier to handle, improving the soldier's ability to hit in ways that inflict superficial wounds even when they fail to hit in a way that does "significant" damage. In this sense it's the inverse of the dodge mechanic.

As for why we don't just give everyone these things, it's because we can't. XCOM doesn't have a hundred redshirts to throw at the enemy. Sending that many rookies at any mission would probably be a lot more effective than the kill-teams we have, but that's impossible. Like I said, this is why I think XCOM 2 is more immersive than EU/EW. In the new game our limitations make sense, but in the first one, when we're allegedly an organization backed by the UN or whatever, we should be able to do as you say and drown them in bodies. And that game didn't even have the mods you say wreck the immersion, which we also don't mass-produce because they're alien technology that we don't have the resources or the knowledge to make, so we have to steal their good gear from them.

The only thing I agree with you about is what the mods literally are. A repeater conferring this chance doesn't make much sense, it would be more logical to be conferred by a soldier ability, a type of ammo, or something else. And maybe stuff like the final bosses being susceptible to these shouldn't be the case from a gameplay perspective, as it's fairly anticlimactic, but I would view that as even more immersion breaking than the current system. It's not uncommon for bosses to be immune to many effects in games, because that would often times allow silly amounts of cheese, but arbitrary immunity to effects doesn't make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 15, 2016, 12:36:59 AM
I agree with most of that. One of the things that never made sense to me about X:EU was how limited your resources were. You're literally the world's last hope. Your income should be in the billions or even trillions, but instead it's in the thousands. The U.S. Military alone has vastly more resources than the fictional XCOM project, which is supposed to be the culmination of the whole world's resources on a last-ditch effort to defeat an alien invasion. The fact that you have to worry about money at all is a little silly, from an immersion standpoint.

The XCOM 2 plot makes a lot more sense, given that in this game every nation has allied with the aliens, forging a "peace agreement", and you are instead a small group of ragtag resistance fighters, using the limited personal resources of rebellious sects. It makes perfect sense that you have no money, you're literally fighting against the world and the aliens now, instead of just the aliens. So it's more immersive in terms of the plot, and it's more immersive in terms of the way the soldiers act and behave. Anyway, a 5% chance to instantly kill an opponent (which is what the weapon mod does) is so hilariously unreliable that it's barely worth mentioning. It's just a nice thing to have every once in awhile when you get lucky.

Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 15, 2016, 12:59:31 AM
15% from a superior repeater on the otherhand, is amazing(ly unreliable) at saving you shots. Its still more reliable than the basic hair trigger mods I have found by the quarter-dozen.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 15, 2016, 01:54:57 AM
Just beat the game, holy shit that final mission... It was pretty intense. The final room would be quite a challenge on its own even if you didn't have to run the long gauntlet to get there.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 15, 2016, 03:04:44 PM
Well, you do you, I guess. I understand the weird disconnect between the names of mods and their function, like how a stock adds damage on a miss, but that doesn't affect immersion for me at all. In terms of the actual mechanics, I don't see how a chance to insta-kill is any less immersive than a critical hit. You got a good shot off and damaged something that destroyed the enemy in a single shot.
It's still iffy because it works with the same probability independently of the nature of the enemy - a flat chance to instantly destroy a rat or a tank. That is silly!
For this reason it also doesn't compare to the crits, because those were always dependant on the nature of the weapon used and the HP and armor stats of the enemy in question.

The modded stocks could be explained that they make the weapon easier to handle, improving the soldier's ability to hit in ways that inflict superficial wounds even when they fail to hit in a way that does "significant" damage. In this sense it's the inverse of the dodge mechanic.
Making it impossible to miss is still mighty strange. So a blind soldier can hit an enemy standing a mile away with a bent matchlock pistol, as long as they use the magic stock? Grah!

Also the new weapons all look stupid. Stuuupid. I want the Carbine, Battle Rifle and Heavy Machine Gun from The Long War, not some chainsaw-style autocannon straight from the hands of Arnie  :(
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 15, 2016, 03:08:08 PM
I think they could address all these concerns by adding a cinematic after the first mission or so:

"
Congratulations, Shrugging Khan, you have successfully Disliked This Game!

Press Alt+F4 to continue to further conquests!
"

:)
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 15, 2016, 03:45:34 PM
Well, you do you, I guess. I understand the weird disconnect between the names of mods and their function, like how a stock adds damage on a miss, but that doesn't affect immersion for me at all. In terms of the actual mechanics, I don't see how a chance to insta-kill is any less immersive than a critical hit. You got a good shot off and damaged something that destroyed the enemy in a single shot.
It's still iffy because it works with the same probability independently of the nature of the enemy - a flat chance to instantly destroy a rat or a tank. That is silly!
For this reason it also doesn't compare to the crits, because those were always dependant on the nature of the weapon used and the HP and armor stats of the enemy in question.

The modded stocks could be explained that they make the weapon easier to handle, improving the soldier's ability to hit in ways that inflict superficial wounds even when they fail to hit in a way that does "significant" damage. In this sense it's the inverse of the dodge mechanic.
Making it impossible to miss is still mighty strange. So a blind soldier can hit an enemy standing a mile away with a bent matchlock pistol, as long as they use the magic stock? Grah!

Also the new weapons all look stupid. Stuuupid. I want the Carbine, Battle Rifle and Heavy Machine Gun from The Long War, not some chainsaw-style autocannon straight from the hands of Arnie  :(
to be fair xcom has always been a little bit silly and not completely realistic(I've never played the long war so I cant comment on that at all) just realistic enough to fit the theme and mechanics (although to a lessor degree) personally I'm just pleased that the developers cared enough about the mechanics to put them first over everything else.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 15, 2016, 03:46:13 PM
You'd think in a world with alien technology they could come up with mods that make more sense. I don't think it's enough of an 'immersion-breaker' for me to make a fuss over it though.

Stock = Homing-Nanites, you'll always at least graze the target
Repeater = Uh, I dunno, adds some psionic wizardry
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 15, 2016, 04:35:53 PM
I think they could address all these concerns by adding a cinematic after the first mission or so:

"
Congratulations, Shrugging Khan, you have successfully Disliked This Game!

Press Alt+F4 to continue to further conquests!
"

:)
Oh yes, and if you actually do quit at that point it immediately opens one window for steam refunds and one for metacritic (or something)  :D

Come on though, I really see it as valid criticism. If game devs just put in things that make no sense and nobody calls it out, it can only ever get worse :P
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 15, 2016, 05:06:11 PM
Come on though, I really see it as valid criticism. If game devs just put in things that make no sense and nobody calls it out, it can only ever get worse :P
Sure, it's silly. And they should try harder on that front next time.

But bear in mind an important principle of engineering: if you're trying to solve a hard problem that's been failed multiple times (e.g. various problems with the user experience in the original XCOM and all of its imitators), stop trying to solve other problems (e.g. plausibility) at the same time.

In other words, I'd rather deal with silly than the bullshot-and-slowverwatch sandwich XCOM's served me in the past. It's still one of my favorite genres, but I've generally only been able to stomach a full game very occasionally.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 15, 2016, 05:51:12 PM
I think this is hair splitting.
For example the hit and miss stuff and with mods, that alöways hit. Hit and miss isn't hardlined like it wasin the first remake. There are grazing shots that are a mix between miss and hit. They don't fully hit the enemy but they still do some damage.

XCOM 2 is in all terms better than its predecessor and just because something does not "fit 100% into the lore or realism" I wouldn't refuse to buy an overall awesome game.
Did I mention that the makers of Long War worked with the development team together?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 15, 2016, 07:57:11 PM
I think this is hair splitting.
For example the hit and miss stuff and with mods, that alöways hit. Hit and miss isn't hardlined like it wasin the first remake. There are grazing shots that are a mix between miss and hit. They don't fully hit the enemy but they still do some damage.

XCOM 2 is in all terms better than its predecessor and just because something does not "fit 100% into the lore or realism" I wouldn't refuse to buy an overall awesome game.
Did I mention that the makers of Long War worked with the development team together?
no you didn't actually btw is long war a mob or an actual expansion? its just the way people keep talking it make sound like more than a mod to me but yes mechanically this game looks very solid to me.
ps before anybody asks no I hadn't actually heard of this long war thing before this thread
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 15, 2016, 09:06:20 PM
It was a mod for the original game that expanded it (a lot). You could say it's an "inofficial expansion".
http://www.nexusmods.com/xcom/mods/88/?
Never played it, though.

I don't know how much they worked on XCOM2 because clearly they weren't lead devs. They released however three mods right at release, one that adds leaders for your team that give squad buffs (but you can have only one leader at the same time in your squad).
Another adds a new alien type. I forogt what the third did but I think it was a new weapon.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 15, 2016, 09:50:41 PM


Making it impossible to miss is still mighty strange. So a blind soldier can hit an enemy standing a mile away with a bent matchlock pistol, as long as they use the magic stock? Grah!

Also the new weapons all look stupid. Stuuupid. I want the Carbine, Battle Rifle and Heavy Machine Gun from The Long War, not some chainsaw-style autocannon straight from the hands of Arnie  :(

That just seems like an exaggeration to me. It's not a "magic" stock, it's taking an already high-class (or alien) weapon and giving it an improvement that lets a trained soldier wield it better. That effect translates into one or two guaranteed damage. In the "fluff" it doesn't actually mean that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could always do 2 damage with it, but the abstraction that is the game represents it as such.

I suppose that's what you're complaining about in the first place but I'm just not sure why, XCOM and any turn-based strategy game will always involve a goodly deal of abstraction.


As for the weapons looking stupid, I only really dislike the magnetic weapons. The Plasma ones are awesome, I think, and all of them feel really good and impactful when they fire. Even the pistols actually feel like they're doing damage rather than the "pew pew pew" ones in EU.

The armor, on the other hand, leaves a lot to be desired. The starting armors look cool, but I'm not too fond of the Warden Armor that makes all my guys look like the main characters in Crysis.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 15, 2016, 10:00:25 PM
It was a mod for the original game that expanded it (a lot). You could say it's an "inofficial expansion".
http://www.nexusmods.com/xcom/mods/88/?
Never played it, though.

I don't know how much they worked on XCOM2 because clearly they weren't lead devs. They released however three mods right at release, one that adds leaders for your team that give squad buffs (but you can have only one leader at the same time in your squad).
Another adds a new alien type. I forogt what the third did but I think it was a new weapon.
thanks that looks like the sort of thing id love if I had xcom also one particular part of the q and a amused me greatly.
Q: I'm fairly new to xcom. What difficulty should I start with?
A: Normal.

Q: I'm an XCOM veteran. What difficulty should I start with?
A: Normal.

Q: But I'm really awesome at --
A: Sorry to interrupt, but just start with Normal. We don't have easy difficulties in this mod that hold your hand while you learn the ropes and we've removed every bit of code we can find that cheats for the player on the lower difficulties. It's going to be hard. The other difficulties are just harder versions of Normal; feel free to move up when you get a handle on all the new mechanics. XD
 
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 15, 2016, 10:05:31 PM
The plasmas in nucom2 are certainly cooler looking, yeah. Instead of little bolts you get a big trail of particles behind the shot.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 15, 2016, 11:11:02 PM
It was a mod for the original game that expanded it (a lot). You could say it's an "inofficial expansion".
http://www.nexusmods.com/xcom/mods/88/?
Never played it, though.

I don't know how much they worked on XCOM2 because clearly they weren't lead devs. They released however three mods right at release, one that adds leaders for your team that give squad buffs (but you can have only one leader at the same time in your squad).
Another adds a new alien type. I forogt what the third did but I think it was a new weapon.
thanks that looks like the sort of thing id love if I had xcom also one particular part of the q and a amused me greatly.
Q: I'm fairly new to xcom. What difficulty should I start with?
A: Normal.

Q: I'm an XCOM veteran. What difficulty should I start with?
A: Normal.

Q: But I'm really awesome at --
A: Sorry to interrupt, but just start with Normal. We don't have easy difficulties in this mod that hold your hand while you learn the ropes and we've removed every bit of code we can find that cheats for the player on the lower difficulties. It's going to be hard. The other difficulties are just harder versions of Normal; feel free to move up when you get a handle on all the new mechanics. XD
I made the mistake, the first time I tried Long War, of starting with the second difficulty (out of 4). I paid so dearly for that decision.

Both XCOM: Long War and Xenonauts are insanely challenging, on any difficulty. I have a running offer for any of my close friends of $50, to anybody who can beat Xenonauts on EASY, save scumming allowed.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 15, 2016, 11:17:54 PM
Some info on The Long War:

The Long War is a mod that adds a great deal of new features, items, abilities, game mechanics, balance changes, fixes and other little tweaks to XCOM:EW.
It is also really, really well made. The design choices they made are excellent. They let you adjust many settings to suit your preferences. It generally feels like they picked up where the devs left the game and polished it to perfection (within the limitations of a very mod-unfriendly game).

For the details I'd just link to the wiki (http://ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Long_War), but it's currently got database problems. Huh.

The Long War is also perfectly happy to punish you for mistakes. It gives you dozens of new tools to use though, so it's not like it's just hard - it's just less forgiving. For both the player and the aliens. And...oh god, I can't really explain it well enough. It's BIG. It's GOOD. It's also somewhat complex. It's definitely not a mod that's easy to get into, if only because of how hard it hits and how many new things and changes it introduces. But it's a far better overall experience than the base XCOM, if you're willing to accept that you may well fail, and be beaten, and have to accept losses very frequently (unless you savescum).
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 15, 2016, 11:37:39 PM
Some info on The Long War:

The Long War is a mod that adds a great deal of new features, items, abilities, game mechanics, balance changes, fixes and other little tweaks to XCOM:EW.
It is also really, really well made. The design choices they made are excellent. They let you adjust many settings to suit your preferences. It generally feels like they picked up where the devs left the game and polished it to perfection (within the limitations of a very mod-unfriendly game).

For the details I'd just link to the wiki (http://ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Long_War), but it's currently got database problems. Huh.

The Long War is also perfectly happy to punish you for mistakes. It gives you dozens of new tools to use though, so it's not like it's just hard - it's just less forgiving. For both the player and the aliens. And...oh god, I can't really explain it well enough. It's BIG. It's GOOD. It's also somewhat complex. It's definitely not a mod that's easy to get into, if only because of how hard it hits and how many new things and changes it introduces. But it's a far better overall experience than the base XCOM, if you're willing to accept that you may well fail, and be beaten, and have to accept losses very frequently (unless you savescum).
sounds like the sort of thing I would play xcom with if it worked on my laptop which I know for a fact it doesn't since I tried it on a free weekend once and it just straight up shat it self and didn't work.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 15, 2016, 11:40:07 PM
Your laptop was defending you.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 16, 2016, 12:12:58 AM
Your laptop was defending you.
I'm going to take it that you didn't particularly like xcom its not like I was really interested in getting it I was just testing it while I had the chance.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 16, 2016, 12:40:10 AM
Oh I enjoyed it immensely. But it involves lots of losing.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 16, 2016, 01:17:30 AM
I remember streaming XCOM EU on the highest difficulty and failing hardly. The viewers laughed their asses off.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 16, 2016, 07:59:28 AM
Both XCOM: Long War and Xenonauts are insanely challenging, on any difficulty. I have a running offer for any of my close friends of $50, to anybody who can beat Xenonauts on EASY, save scumming allowed.
I'm not sure Xenonauts is insanely challenging on normal. Yes, you will lose some soldiers and sometimes you just make bad decisions and leave your squad in the open and wipe. It's up to you if you wanna reload or train a new squad at that point. Both are equally doable. It's only how much effort you yourself wanna put it, and that's what I like. The option to go full hardcore is there, but it's not enforced.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 16, 2016, 08:01:50 AM
I remember streaming XCOM EU on the highest difficulty and failing hardly. The viewers laughed their asses off.
This is streaming in a nutshell. Viewers always laugh their asses off.

Case in point. (https://youtu.be/6olvUdMfHKA?t=4m25s)
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 16, 2016, 11:40:27 AM
Just beat the game, holy shit that final mission... It was pretty intense. The final room would be quite a challenge on its own even if you didn't have to run the long gauntlet to get there.

Spoilers are following

I actually found that mission fairly "ok" , 2 hours OK.. 2 hours and 11 reloads "ok" ;)

So first off I had great fun "beating" xcom 2 on Veteran.

Mission that actually drove me insane? Defend the Avenger. I got it literally like, 2 hours before I started the final mission. The enemies I met there were the highest tier, Gatekeepers, Andromedons etc., and there were a lot of them of "normal" hard stuff (37, I counted!).. now I didn't know that when the mission started, and skulljacked the first codex I encountered, needless to say that was the worst idea I ever had. I still won though, 9 people injured, 3 of them had 1 Hp left, all turrets destroyed. Managed to get the objective thanks to squadsight and a hacked robot...


XCOM 2 was kinda fun to play through. But I also think this game has a severe problem with writing and believability/suspension of disbelief. The first time I saw a terror mission I asked myself "Who exactly am I rescuing here, and Why do they all wear pjyamas and why don't they have guns, and why don't they run away. I've seen many great movies about Guerilla fighters, and the resistance in XCOM2 may very well be the absolute most ineffective collection of sleepwalking asylum inhabitants that ever graced the earth. Heck, they are a danger more to themselves than to others! The world would be better off without them (so actually, you can ignore these missions ... barely any penalty ;p)

What are the resistance and Aliens even *doing* ?
20 years have supposedly gone by since Advent won.. 20 years in which they apparently didn't manage to complete their Avatar project, something they can do easily in less than 3 MONTHS after you start the game. Not just that, but the primary and most precious result of their research just sits in a blacksite facility in the boonies or in a DNA clinic in an advent city protected by (literally looking at the start mission) 5 guys is all they have to protect their most important strategic asset.

So you see my point is this. The story in XCOM 2 makes no sense. If they need humans to produce Soylent Green why the hell would they build up the cities and establish a neat and underhanded solution to finding right and matching candidates? The Aliens had won, Xcom was dismantled, and in 20 years they rebuild the cities from the ground up, construct DNA clinics that cure you from all disease and chip all humans in the cities? (but also check whether you are a match for the Solyent Green program)?

Talk about least effective Alien Invaders in the history of Alien invaders. They needed 20 years just to establish a bureaucracy that even failed doing it's primary "thing" since the ending of XCOM 2 spells out something that makes even less sense, (it links to XCOM TFTD)
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 16, 2016, 12:36:16 PM
*words*
Welcome to AAA games, where story is most of the time dumb for heroic and "cinematic" reasons.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 16, 2016, 01:15:38 PM
*words*
Welcome to AAA games, where story is most of the time dumb for heroic and "cinematic" reasons.

Seems to me this has more to do with Firaxis. Civ Beyond Earth is also such a shallow weirdly incoherent and half-assed thing that just sits there mocking you with it's inconsistent writing. I'd even say Beyond Earth and XCOM 2 were written by the same person. That is totally strange to say, but it feels that way. Weirdly dumbed down, shallow like puddle and .. not well thought out.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 16, 2016, 01:18:14 PM
*words*
Welcome to AAA games, where story is most of the time dumb for heroic and "cinematic" reasons.

Seems to me this has more to do with Firaxis. Civ Beyond Earth is also such a shallow weirdly incoherent and half-assed thing that just sits there mocking you with it's inconsistent writing. I'd even say Beyond Earth and XCOM 2 were written by the same person. That is totally strange to say, but it feels that way. Weirdly dumbed down, shallow like puddle and .. not well thought out.

Just how I like it. I loathe when game writers take their lore too seriously.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Shrugging Khan on February 16, 2016, 01:55:02 PM
Just how I like it. I loathe when game writers take their lore too seriously.
Which ones do that?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 16, 2016, 03:21:36 PM
*words*
Welcome to AAA games, where story is most of the time dumb for heroic and "cinematic" reasons.

Seems to me this has more to do with Firaxis. Civ Beyond Earth is also such a shallow weirdly incoherent and half-assed thing that just sits there mocking you with it's inconsistent writing. I'd even say Beyond Earth and XCOM 2 were written by the same person. That is totally strange to say, but it feels that way. Weirdly dumbed down, shallow like puddle and .. not well thought out.

Just how I like it. I loathe when game writers take their lore too seriously.

In one way you are right. Because XCOM2 does not list a lead writer in the credits. ^^ Which means they didn't just not take it serious, they literally hired NOBODY who writes for a living to work on this (or they all refused to be listed, hah)
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 16, 2016, 03:50:53 PM
Or the lead writer had another role and wanted the credit for that one instead only?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mick on February 16, 2016, 03:55:27 PM
I should clarify, I really have no problem with good stories in games, but they have to be games I'm playing for that specific purpose. Like an adventure game or an RPG. Strategy games, I care about the mechanics first, the story is just a coat of paint.

If a game like XCOM was more focused on story than the strategy mechanics, that would annoy me.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 16, 2016, 03:57:23 PM
Or the lead writer had another role and wanted the credit for that one instead only?
Because names never recur in credits :)

They may just not have organized the work in such a way as to have some particular person who was "the lead writer".
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on February 17, 2016, 01:36:03 AM
I should clarify, I really have no problem with good stories in games, but they have to be games I'm playing for that specific purpose. Like an adventure game or an RPG. Strategy games, I care about the mechanics first, the story is just a coat of paint.

If a game like XCOM was more focused on story than the strategy mechanics, that would annoy me.

Yeah, same here.

Too many times these days games focus WAY too much on story (and worse, on cutscenes), and the gameplay comes out bad as a result.  I get so tired of it happening.  I cant remember the last time I found one like that that had alot of story in it and didn't just annoy me.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 17, 2016, 06:00:14 AM
I should clarify, I really have no problem with good stories in games, but they have to be games I'm playing for that specific purpose. Like an adventure game or an RPG. Strategy games, I care about the mechanics first, the story is just a coat of paint.

If a game like XCOM was more focused on story than the strategy mechanics, that would annoy me.

Yeah, same here.

Too many times these days games focus WAY too much on story (and worse, on cutscenes), and the gameplay comes out bad as a result.  I get so tired of it happening.  I cant remember the last time I found one like that that had alot of story in it and didn't just annoy me.
Oh, I could name one. Firewatch. The story is so well made and integrated into the game, that you don't get annpyed. It tells he story also in a unique way that does not interrupt the gameplay.
There aren't many cutscenes and the few that are, are rather small. However, it's a talkative game, every five minutes the radio that you carry starts talking to you. You can anytime select an answer with a special system, not interrupting whatever you are currently doing. However, on some occasions you have only limited time to answer.
The game plays really well with the interacion between player and the never seen NPC who you talk to. You can report every single thing you find, even if it's not important to your goal. On one occasopn your partner even comments that you "talk a little too much".

Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 17, 2016, 05:00:44 PM
I should clarify, I really have no problem with good stories in games, but they have to be games I'm playing for that specific purpose. Like an adventure game or an RPG. Strategy games, I care about the mechanics first, the story is just a coat of paint.

If a game like XCOM was more focused on story than the strategy mechanics, that would annoy me.

Yeah, same here.

Too many times these days games focus WAY too much on story (and worse, on cutscenes), and the gameplay comes out bad as a result.  I get so tired of it happening.  I cant remember the last time I found one like that that had alot of story in it and didn't just annoy me.
Oh, I could name one. Firewatch. The story is so well made and integrated into the game, that you don't get annpyed. It tells he story also in a unique way that does not interrupt the gameplay.
There aren't many cutscenes and the few that are, are rather small. However, it's a talkative game, every five minutes the radio that you carry starts talking to you. You can anytime select an answer with a special system, not interrupting whatever you are currently doing. However, on some occasions you have only limited time to answer.
The game plays really well with the interacion between player and the never seen NPC who you talk to. You can report every single thing you find, even if it's not important to your goal. On one occasopn your partner even comments that you "talk a little too much".
meh I prefer reading books to playing video games story wise mainly because they don't have to compromise anything among other things.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 17, 2016, 06:22:25 PM
I like both. And soem games I prefer without a lot of story (or story at all) like puzzle games. I couldn't imagine Triple Town with any sort of story.
And when i read, I read mostly horror stories. And horror games are focusing too a lot on the story, so it's even somehow.

Back to XCOM, foudn today my first Muton Berserker. Wow, they look totally different from the first game. Also the new floater variant (Archon). Only one thing to say:
Orbital Laser!
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 17, 2016, 07:16:52 PM
Some poeple might not appreciate sharpshooters in xcom2 for one reason or another.
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/499141817007079627/5189DF57ABC247C9A8172CCF1F0CC98412FF4C21/)
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 19, 2016, 02:50:27 PM
Some poeple might not appreciate sharpshooters in xcom2 for one reason or another.
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/499141817007079627/5189DF57ABC247C9A8172CCF1F0CC98412FF4C21/)
Man XCOM 2 will spoil you with that Sniper. After using that, then going back to Long War or Xenonauts, you'll have delusions of grandeur about what their actually capable of in the former games.

My love affair with XCOM 2 has rekindled my interest in both Long War and Xenonauts, which I still never beat (not for lack of trying). This sequence of events has led to me playing to the games in a cycle. Since I only play on Ironman mode (I enjoy it a lot more), I'll make it as far as I can in the XCOM 2 campaign, lose, switch to Xenonauts, get as far as I can, lose, switch to Long War, etc. rinse and repeat.

I'm assuming I'll beat XCOM2 first, because it seems the easiest of the 3 on "Normal". But man, I love all the games, they're all special in their own unique way:

XCOM2 - Definitely has the most streamlined and Arcade feel. The turn timers force you to do something quickly, the Conceal mechanic is a godsend, and the graphics and mechanics are the most streamlined of the 3. Also gives you the most feedback in terms of how you're doing in any given campaign, and holds your hand the most.

Long War - A tactician's wet dream. 8 classes all with 10 upgrades, and 3 choices per upgrade. This not including the 8 MEC classes, the SHIVS, or the "psionic" upgrades for the soldiers. All the possible combinations would probably be somewhere in the billions. Gameplay is starkly different from XCOM2. Where in the sequel, the start of the mission is a chance to cover ground as quickly as possible, in XCOM2 I've found that the best thing to do at the start of a mission is to TEAM OVERWATCH for about 10 turns. Usually something will eventually walk into your party, igniting all your overwatches, and giving you a significant tactical advantage. This first alien encounter usually leads to many other nearby alien encounters, giving you the opportunity to fight the opponent on your turf.

I will admit, sloverwatch is an incredibly stupid mechanic, but reading this thread helped me see the value in it. Perhaps once you get into the MEC upgrades you can afford to play more aggressively, but in Long War, early on, one misstep into a horde of enemy aliens can spell your doom (so it's not worth it).

Xenonauts - Is definitely the most open-ended of the 3. This is for players that don't like having their hand held. The game gives you very minimal advice past the early text box here and there. There are no defined classes, and every element of the game can be tweaked by the player in degrees. In addition, the cover mechanics are a lot more flimsy and difficult to use, so your soldiers tend to be in great danger at all times. This is a game of extreme precision, where every tiny hex on the map matters to a massive degree, and the "2 turn" move mechanic of the aforementioned games is replaced with a much more complex "Time Units" meter, that can be brutally difficult to use. No Sloverwatch here boys. The aliens don't roam in patrols, and they seem to "hack" (aka have global map vision and always know where you are), so they will almost always make the best move possible relative to your actions. This means that you can't 'overwatch' forever, because walking into your team would be suicide. Sooner or later you have to venture into enemy territory, at your own peril...
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 19, 2016, 03:08:21 PM
I had fairly good luck with snipers in xenonauts as well though. (but only in the early game since it crashed often, and now that it was properly released and non-crashy I still haven't gotten around to finishing it...)

You certainly can make XCOM2 harder easily though. Theres an improved ai mod (which I'm not interested in with my current setup, but it does make the aliens less...expected), or mods like IESS+ (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=625780621) that I am using cause things like 9 troopers and an officer fighting you on the first mission (on Commander this time) when you only have 6 rookies for (or 4 rookies I suppose if you didn't increase your squadsize, but only crazy people on ironman would do that with this mod), and they all can attack you during their turn, not just a few of them. Or how about some additional dark events (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=626109271) to make things tougher on you to decide what to counter? Viper rounds could be annoying, extra faceless maybe, but what about a podful of sectopods?
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 19, 2016, 04:49:18 PM
I didn't mean to imply that XCOM 2 was EASY, only that it was the easiest of the 3 (which really isn't saying much). I am still playing Normal after all. If I wanted to make it harder I'd just up the difficulty.

If anything XCOM 2 is the 'easiest' because its mechanics make the most sense (which is expected given that it's now a 3rd generation reboot). You're not forced into sloverwatch like in EU and the AI doesn't blatantly cheat as in Xenonauts.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 19, 2016, 05:07:53 PM
the ai in xenonauts cheats? hu I hadn't noticed still though that's cool are vehicles a thing in the newer xcoms by the way? I don't think they are but I'm probably wrong.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Coppermantis on February 19, 2016, 05:25:26 PM
I had fairly good luck with snipers in xenonauts as well though. (but only in the early game since it crashed often, and now that it was properly released and non-crashy I still haven't gotten around to finishing it...)

You certainly can make XCOM2 harder easily though. Theres an improved ai mod (which I'm not interested in with my current setup, but it does make the aliens less...expected), or mods like IESS+ (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=625780621) that I am using cause things like 9 troopers and an officer fighting you on the first mission (on Commander this time) when you only have 6 rookies for (or 4 rookies I suppose if you didn't increase your squadsize, but only crazy people on ironman would do that with this mod), and they all can attack you during their turn, not just a few of them. Or how about some additional dark events (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=626109271) to make things tougher on you to decide what to counter? Viper rounds could be annoying, extra faceless maybe, but what about a podful of sectopods?


Ohhhhhh, that multiple-Sectopod one looks good. Will definitely play with that one next game.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 19, 2016, 05:31:19 PM
the ai in xenonauts cheats? hu I hadn't noticed still though that's cool are vehicles a thing in the newer xcoms by the way? I don't think they are but I'm probably wrong.
Perhaps it's just in the "Unofficial Community Edition" mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=524885857&searchtext=) I'm playing. But the AI in that game (Xenonauts) is on par with AI War level cheating. Which is to say, it's really damn good and the intentional unfairness is there to equalize the fact that it's playing against a human being. I honestly have no problem with it, it's just blatantly obvious that it doesn't play by the same rules.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 19, 2016, 05:46:17 PM
the ai in xenonauts cheats? hu I hadn't noticed still though that's cool are vehicles a thing in the newer xcoms by the way? I don't think they are but I'm probably wrong.
Perhaps it's just in the "Unofficial Community Edition" mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=524885857&searchtext=) I'm playing. But the AI in that game (Xenonauts) is on par with AI War level cheating. Which is to say, it's really damn good and the intentional unfairness is there to equalize the fact that it's playing against a human being. I honestly have no problem with it, it's just blatantly obvious that it doesn't play by the same rules.
?....I never said I had anything against its just well yea I never noticed it as you said probably just because I'm not using the community edition and I won't in till I fail horribly I succeed if adopt the community edition now itll mess that save up probably.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 19, 2016, 06:05:51 PM
I lost, Avatar got finished. Have to restart now, because it was Ironman. I had some nasty missions with Andromedons.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Wingflier on February 19, 2016, 07:00:10 PM
Glad I'm not the only ironman player in here. There's nothing quite like the feeling of that mission that goes to hell fast or 15 hours down the drain.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on February 19, 2016, 08:34:43 PM
Normally I'd do something like ironman in these sorts of games, but... not with the RNG having such a strong presence. 
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 19, 2016, 08:55:00 PM
Glad I'm not the only ironman player in here. There's nothing quite like the feeling of that mission that goes to hell fast or 15 hours down the drain.
speaking of which I don't think its in xenonauts? although its probably in the community version I imagine?.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 19, 2016, 08:58:09 PM
speaking of which I don't think its in xenonauts? although its probably in the community version I imagine?.

Ironman? Yeah, that's in both vanilla and community.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Aklyon on February 19, 2016, 09:13:31 PM
I lost, Avatar got finished. Have to restart now, because it was Ironman. I had some nasty missions with Andromedons.
Andromedons are lovely MC targets. They can make holes in walls for you for free, tank damage (and do so for at least two turns instead of one, sectopods not counted), and shoot back! And also are hackable for even more damage-sponge, assuming you don't just kill it afterwards and that it attracts more attention than your team.

They're a pain to have to fight though, at least at first.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 19, 2016, 09:17:44 PM
speaking of which I don't think its in xenonauts? although its probably in the community version I imagine?.

Ironman? Yeah, that's in both vanilla and community.
hu guess I must have missed it will have to remember to turn them on in my next run thanks.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: chemical_art on March 01, 2016, 03:00:15 PM
... "rocket launchers for everyone,...".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZQdaEFa_60
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2016, 03:03:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZQdaEFa_60

Upgrade "AK-47s" to "Heavy Bolters" and we're in business.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 24, 2017, 01:29:37 AM
Time to use my necromancer skills on this thread.

For thise who didn't notice, XCOM 2 got a nice new expansion called "War of the Chosen".
It's similiar to Enemy Within that it changes the entre game so much, that they have to keep it as seperate starting option for players.
This thing adds even more than Enemy Within and that expansion was already crazy.

I ry not to spil that much and just talk about the general gameplay features, that were added. Apart from new aliens, weapons, items and missions, the main focus are the three new bosses, the Chosen.
These aliens can appear on any mission and make your life miserable. You can kill them like any other enemy but they will then teleport out instead of actually dying. The key part of the game is to find the hideout of each of these bosses and finish it off there.

To do this you get support from three new NPC factions. You have to make contact to these factions, estabelish a good connection with them and they allow you to support on covert actions. Covert actions are non-playable missions (like in Enemy Within), whre you send out soldiers for a specific time and they will eventually return with a result. If they are successful, you get loot, progress, xp, you name it. Your soldiers can even get stats from doing these missions. However, they can get hurt, ambushed or even captured on these missions. the last one is really bad for you because captured soldiers get now tortured from the Chosen in order to learn the location of the Avenger (your base). You can rescue the soldiers in a special new mission type that involves stealth.

Additionaly to covert actions, each of the three factions give you access to new classes (or more specific, they give you one of their own soldiers). The special classes can choose from multiple skills.

While we're at skills, these are also new. The typical two branches are still there but with a new building, the training center, you can now branch out to a third path with randomized skills for each soldier. and you can even get skills from BOTH skill trees at once. Soldiers get now skill points for kills, these can be used to buy skills that you didn't choose by level ups or you can choose fromt he third branch that is randomly generated for each soldier. Additionally you also have "XCOM" skill points that are shared with each soldier.l These can be obtained from good strategic moments in battles like flanking an enemy or getting a good shot from an ambush. Defeating Chosen (even in the mission where you cannot kill them for good) also gives a good amount of these.

Now the features don't end here. A new enemy faction was added too. The Lost. These are your typical horror zombies that were exposed to alien radiation for 20 years. They are mindless, they are undead and they are very hostile towards anything. This includes the aliens as well, on missions were you fight both Lost and aliens, the Lost will alsso attack the aliens.
The Lost are drawn by loud noises (reminds of the L4D zombies a lot) and you can use grenades to lure them in specific regions, for an example in enemy clusters. keep in midn that the Lost will still attack you if they can.
The Lost don't have many HP, most of the time 2-4, in some stronger cases about 5-8. You can almost always one-shot them. But they come in big numbers, it's not rare to suddenly fave 20 of them at once. To counter this, each kill on a Lost will net you another free action to use. Cue for heroic zombie survival fights. In many missions with Lost it's impossible to beat them, they are too many, you have to evacuate after you finished the objective. The Lost add a nice variation to the mix bu can also annoy he hell out of you in missions where you really don't want them. *cough* Chosen shows up.

Except that, XCOM 2 is still XCOM 2, the main objective is still the same, the plot device is still the same with some variations here and there to fill in the Chosen.

A nice and welcome change are in the retaliation missions. There is now a variation to the standard version where the civilians are brought together at a safe spot and protected by resistance soldiers who ge their own turn an can attack and kill aliens for you. This makes these missions a lot easier and not so chaotic as they used to be. The aliens will in this variation however ignore your troops mostly and attack the civilians if they can to make up for that change. This includes aliens that you engaged already and are two steps away from one of your soldiers.


A last note, XCOM 2 has now daily challenges. These single player missions can be played for points in a daily leaderboard. It's a common thing in other types of games but I didn't expect in XCOM2.

And whiel we're at XCOM, he maker of XCOM has started a new game which will come out 2018. It's XCOM. With horror. It is, fromt he concept, XCOM Enemy Unknown but the twist is that enemies are procedurely generated on your behaviour and your playstyle. they adapt towards your stretegy, if you use a specific type of weapon often in missions, you will face enemies that are resistent towards it.
To make it even more crazy, the game will feature huge bosses with multiple attack patterns and you have to shoot of limbs in Dead Space Style to remove attacks from the boss and kill it off.
The premise of the game is that after a global virus broke out and infected wildlife and humans, the survivors settled in big megacities to be safe. The virus mutated its hosts and gave them properties of every specimen it had infected. The result are creatures with grotesque limbs made from different species. It looks very promising.
https://phoenixpoint.info/
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 24, 2017, 07:11:17 AM
I actually backed Phoenix Point, outstepping my usual kickstarter-like hesitance. I'm hoping it'll be good. It looks creative and promising. Like what XCOM 3 should've been. If you've ever read the XCOM 3 (Apocalypse) design documents, that game sounds *AMAZING* But time and money constraints forced them to scrap most of the cool mechanics.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 24, 2017, 12:42:37 PM
I'm quite excited for this game, not only because it's XCOM bu because it's a horror XCOM with grotesque monsters that could come from "The Thing".
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Misery on September 26, 2017, 04:37:56 AM
I'd forgotten this game existed.

After all the earlier conversation was over and done with and considered, I thought... okay, I'll pick it up, this might be pretty darned good.   Then I forgot about it.  I hate it when I do that.  Though, it's better than buying something and THEN forgetting about it.

Looking at this new expansion though, one thing stands out:  Holy freaking hell that is a PRICEY expansion.   Seriously, that's really expensive.  Not something that would stop me from getting it, but I'm usually suspicious of something where the price is somehow abnormally high.  Still I might go and pick the whole thing up.  As annoying as the first game could be, there was no denying the quality of it.  Aside from RNG overload at times the only true problem was that there was no way in hell my laptop could run it.


This new game you linked to also sounds very interesting.  I love the idea of these procedural monsters here, if they could pull that off well it could get very interesting.  I'm a bit suspicious of the bit where "OMG PRE-ORDER" seems to be 75% of that blasted site though.  Though I tend not to mind pre-order stuff when early access comes with it.  But that's generally the only exception.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 26, 2017, 08:03:51 AM
This new game you linked to also sounds very interesting.  I love the idea of these procedural monsters here, if they could pull that off well it could get very interesting.  I'm a bit suspicious of the bit where "OMG PRE-ORDER" seems to be 75% of that blasted site though.  Though I tend not to mind pre-order stuff when early access comes with it.  But that's generally the only exception.
Phoenix Point is *waaay* off though. They don't expect to be done even by 2018 if I remember correctly. So you might just wanna shove that into the "I'll check it when it's released" bucket.
Title: Re: XCOM 2
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 26, 2017, 01:25:27 PM
It's funny that you mention the same complain that literally everyone mentioned during the pre-order phase: The price.
People told the developers that it would be unreasonable to charge this much fo an dlc/expansion.
Even for me it was really high, EW costed 30$ at release.
But after playing the expansion I think the price is fair. No cheap but fair. What you get is not simply additional content for the main game. Liek in EW you get an entire new side campaign on top of the main campaign of the game.
I just defeated the first Chosen and I put already many hours into the game. 2 more to go and while I don't expect the same amount of time for them anymore (my soldiers are all farmed up) I still expect some good amount of fun from this.

Especially the attack on the Chosen hideout is amazing. It's like a reversal base attack (people from the original X-COM will remember this). And don't get me started on the Chosen boss fight. Let me jsut say, this took me some time to win and I still lost a SPARK in the fight.

Of course I can udnerstand why people hestitate to buy it. it costs the same as the main game and with that much money you expect the same amount of gameplay. Do you get this? Hard to say, really, it's hard to meassure this because game time is tied to the main campaign as well, it just streteches it. In terms of enemies, there are many new, not as many as in the base game but still more than you typically would expect.
I think however the real kicker for this game are the factions and the new ability system, where soldiers can finally learn all the abilites from their class, not only what they've cosen during level up. This changes the entire way how you play XCOM. And the possibilities are amazing.
I may still have set teh price around 30$ (like EW) but this is just a personal choice and I think Firaxis nows better what expenses the had and how much money they have to expect to get back.

In terms of optimization: This is a problem I can udnerstand. Literally everyone complained that XCOM2 runs like a potato on a high end pc. It surprisingly runs on my old pc, not very fast but it runs good enough to enjoy this. That being said, War of the Chosen is way better optimized. The loading time between missions has been shorted dramatically (this was for many people one of the biggest issues, between each mission you had to wait 5 minutes until the screen loaded, not it's around 1 minute at best, probably fatser with better specs).
Does not mean that t will run now on your laptop. It probably won't because if you don't have the specs for it, you don't have them. But if it just run slow, it might run now faster.

Also, the specs are the main reason why I'm not pre-ordering Phoenix Point (as much as I wanted to). I have to wait until they tell what the specs for it ware. They mentioned they want it to run on lower end pcs but that being said, if it is as well optimized as XCOM2 it will cause only trouble. So I wait for early access at least and look what other people say about it.