Author Topic: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)  (Read 1885 times)

Offline Cyborg

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Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« on: January 27, 2017, 09:53:42 PM »
First, the disclaimer. If you clicked on this topic and find yourself getting all upset, just remember you put yourself here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe64p-QzhNE
What "Orwellian" really means - Noah Tavlin
TED talk

So, really checking off all the boxes here. I find myself mournful, looking at the systematic disintegration of healthcare, care for the poor and disabled, the environment, silencing our scientists, and threatening immigrants. Talk of a round up is starting up again, with “sanctuary cities” vowing to block the way. I read and watched the confirmation hearings. I have also been reading and keeping up on who is who and the entire election process. It’s embarrassing.

I know I have said many times, the left and right are not opposites. They are not equal. You cannot make a false equivalence and say, “oh they are equally bad.” And you cannot say, “you are just mad your side lost.” Both of those phrases is to ignore what’s going on and the severe threat to fellow Americans.

If you are not a white male, you lost.

So what do we do now? All I can think of is, reach out to those who think that voting doesn’t matter. Get people to pay attention and realize their responsibility to take a little bit of time out of their lives to check a box on a piece of paper. And not just for themselves, but for their neighbors. To actually give a shit about other people and the planet everybody lives on.

Unfortunately, the damage to the health care system and the environment will result in real fatalities. It’s not a joke, and never was, and I hope that people show up during congressional midterms two years from now and vote.
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 10:14:58 PM »
You forgot to mention wanting to essentially kill any useful functions of the FCC in favor of ISP-lobbied bullshit, and the literally-impossible 'good backdoors' argument that should have stayed dead and buried is apparently back for more.

Its not as big a deal as the enviromental fuckups, the healthcare 'No we don't have a replacement but hug obamacare anyway, we've waited 8 years for this'. or the science thing, but its there.

This is what happens when you give the joke candidate with nothing but money a chance.

Offline Misery

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 11:14:10 PM »
Normally I might be a bit bothered by yet another damn politics topic showing up, but this IS the Arcen forums, where people arent angry and/or made of crazy, so.... feh.  I'll offer my totally useless input.

I, personally, am one of those that didn't bother voting.  A few reasons:

1.  didn't care enough.  And we'll get to why in a moment.

2.  Was REALLY bloody tired of hearing about the whole thing (my mother and stepfather never shut up about it, to the point where I simply leave if they dont stop within 10 minutes of me getting to the house), and politics almost entirely consists of people arguing and whining and NEVER GETTING THINGS DONE.  Throwing my own chainsaw into the giant whirring, screaming mess wouldnt do a damn thing.   Which is also partly because of:

3.  That I see politicians, ALL of them, as inherantly bad.  TO me, it didn't matter worth a flying fart which candidate won.  They were in politics:  That was all I needed to know to hate them both.  Aint exactlyl many good politicians out there, and regardless of who won, it would have led to lots of screaming and whining either way.  Whoever won would A: screw things up, and B: do things that made people really angry.  Happens every bloody time.  Always has, always will.  Even more reason why I get so tired of this crap.  How many times over the last 8 years have I heard "The president screwed THIS up!"?  2351058016627 or so? Somewhere around there.

4.  Given that view on them, I never learned anything more than their names.  And I dont watch the news or anything like that, and if anyone I know threatens to try to talk to me about such things, I hit them with stuff until they learn their damn lesson.  Being that I fortunately have no such knowledge then, there's no point in voting.  I may as well just be flipping a coin.  I cant even exaggerate my lack of knowledge on this one:  I dont even know what left/right are even supposed to mean.  Or the difference between democrat and republican.  I have rather made a point of not knowing these things.  I get more than a little unpleasant if someone tries to educate me.

5.  And one of the biggest reasons for that, is because of watching what politics DOES to people.  Have you ever noticed how an arguement about a political issue goes?  If there are two answers to an important, big, major question, you would assume that the proper way to approach answering it would be to sit down, examine the issue, apply logic, and think it out for yourself, right?  Yeah, that's not how politics work.  I have no bloody clue what "liberal" or "convervative" means, but I HAVE noticed that instead of actually thinking about the issue at hand, people will just look for certain key words that represent one of those two, and if that does not match their chosen side, then they will not say "yes", EVEN IF THEIR NORMAL WAYS OF THINKING WOULD LEAD TO A YES, if those two labels were not present.  It's tribalism at it's absolute worst, and it turns people into a bunch of rather dimwitted apes.  Well, more dimwitted than usual.  I see what effects it has, I watch people act like a bunch of schoolyard brats, I watch them picking SIDES instead of examining individual things... and I want no bloody part of it.   It's toxic.  It's all toxic.



So, that's a bit of a view from someone that didn't vote, and explaining WHY I didn't vote. 


What I WONT do, fortunately, is jump into either specific side of the possibly inevitable debate that will result in this topic.

And I'll also take a moment to at least say:  Just keep it civil, everyone.  Let's not have that damn gun topic again.  That whole incident was pretty bad, as things on this forum goes.

Online Draco18s

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 01:25:00 AM »
If you are not a white male, you lost.

Even if you are, you lost. You just haven't realized it yet, nor are you going to lose as much as everyone else.

But you still lost.

Just a list of various tidbits:

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2017, 04:21:01 AM »
I'm just trying to get over the irony of this anti-immigration executive order being signed on Holocaust memorial day.

Or the fact that anybody could think that building a wall between the U.S. and Mexico could ever result in a positive outcome with the Berlin wall having been so recently torn down. I'm just amazed.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2017, 03:33:17 PM »
And I'll also take a moment to at least say:  Just keep it civil, everyone.  Let's not have that damn gun topic again.  That whole incident was pretty bad, as things on this forum goes.

I won't rehash the gun topic. I stand by everything I said, however. Continued ignorance is what got us here.

It's tough to get people to care about others. Even someone like Misery, who openly admits to not knowing what is going on and is perfectly content in their bubble, can't be bothered to read about it. Can't be bothered to be literate about the topic. Can't be bothered to take a half hour to go vote.

I wonder, at what point do the Misery-like persons of the world take responsibility? What would have to happen for someone like Misery to care? Because there are tons of folks like that. Most people didn't vote.

One wonders, if the current administration fired up the ovens, but they gave people like Misery a chance to vote first, would folks like Misery vote? What event would have to happen for someone to pay attention?

If you can't care about the poor and the sick, if you can't care about people with disabilities (even though Misery has disclosed and asked us to respect his/her disability on this forum), if you can't care about women and their health, if you can't care about immigrants, what is the breaking point where someone like Misery would care enough?

What makes people care enough?

And some of it I agree with, that partisan blinders prevent people from solving problems. I do believe that the two-party system is broken, and it has turned into a personality cult. And I'm not saying that "the liberals are right" because they're liberals, but rather, I'm addressing the individual topics on their own merits. And when I addressed the gun control topic, I addressed it on its own merits. It just so happens that there is a party out there which makes an awful lot of money on weapons, and whether or not people are dying, it doesn't matter to them. That's not partisan, it's addressing the matter on its own merits, and one side does happen to be wrong.

I would posit the same thing about healthcare. It seems kind of obvious to me, every major country in the world has healthcare for all. Surely, living healthy is something we can all agree on.

I would say the same thing about people with disabilities. Should they be swept away or allowed to die because they cost money? And if that's what's happening now, are people just going to shake their heads and say "oh that's too bad"? Will people just not care because it's not them? Will people just not care because of the extreme apathy and depressing words that Misery wrote? I would say that while a literal oven is not being fired up on the White House lawn, it's being done in a much more clever way. Remove the healthcare, remove the medication and the doctors, what more devious way to remove the "burdens on society" than by taking away what gives them life? They don't need literal ovens. In the modern era, it's much more devious, much more sinister, you can remove a population by Executive Order. And that's what we see happening.

There's nothing partisan about killing your own people. And there's nothing noble about looking the other way.
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2017, 04:16:55 PM »
Saw an interesting thing on the tv downstairs, which if I'm summarizing correctly is 'The executive order is unconstitutional, there is no definition of "sanctuary cities" in law, and does not overrule the federal court order we are following. So we are currently following the law even if we do not deal with this nonsense.'

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2017, 05:47:09 PM »
Quote
There's nothing partisan about killing your own people. And there's nothing noble about looking the other way.
Sorry, but Hillary wasn't an option for me either.

I don't care if she was running against Hitler himself, I wouldn't have voted for her. She was untrustworthy, unqualified, has changed her position on basically every political stance we have a name for, and was facing criminal allegations, which she was never officially cleared for, the Director of the FBI simply said he didn't have enough evidence to try her.

The idea that in a Democracy, you have to vote against the worst candidate to keep the cogs slicked and the wheels turning is bafflingly idiotic. If there isn't a candidate who you trust and who fairly represents your interests, I dare say you shouldn't vote at all. Not that the non-major party candidates have any chance of winning, but our system is broken, and to make a sweeping generalization that anybody who refuses or isn't interested in participating it is somehow an apathetic or callous person is amusingly disingenuous.

As an example, when the evidence was overwhelming that the Democratic party had unfairly rigged the primaries and conspired against Bernie Sanders over and over again in order that Hillary would win, the director of the party was forced to resign. Even though Hillary won the Democratic nomination, she did not win it fairly, and therefore technically I didn't even recognize her as the nominee.

You can not call yourself the "Democratic Party", and then spit in the face of democracy just so the party gets the candidate it wants, at the expense of the people. If the process had been fair, maybe Hillary would have still won, we'll never know. But whatever you want to say about Trump, at least he won his nomination fair and square, in spite of the struggle of the Republican Party to get somebody else instead.

Again, our system is bought and paid for by big money. Bernie was the only candidate I was willing to vote for, because he was the only candidate that was focused on the real issues, which is our corrupt political and financial system. After he got screwed, I refused to participate in that system, because it was clear that Democracy was not the first priority (nor has it been for a long time).

Honestly, your rant about Misery doing his duty to America really irked me. It seemed like an entire paragraph of virtue signaling, on the Arcen forums no less. You should probably take that somewhere else.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 05:49:01 PM by Wingflier »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2017, 08:20:53 PM »
And I'll also take a moment to at least say:  Just keep it civil, everyone.  Let's not have that damn gun topic again.  That whole incident was pretty bad, as things on this forum goes.

I won't rehash the gun topic. I stand by everything I said, however. Continued ignorance is what got us here.

It's tough to get people to care about others. Even someone like Misery, who openly admits to not knowing what is going on and is perfectly content in their bubble, can't be bothered to read about it. Can't be bothered to be literate about the topic. Can't be bothered to take a half hour to go vote.

I wonder, at what point do the Misery-like persons of the world take responsibility? What would have to happen for someone like Misery to care? Because there are tons of folks like that. Most people didn't vote.

One wonders, if the current administration fired up the ovens, but they gave people like Misery a chance to vote first, would folks like Misery vote? What event would have to happen for someone to pay attention?

If you can't care about the poor and the sick, if you can't care about people with disabilities (even though Misery has disclosed and asked us to respect his/her disability on this forum), if you can't care about women and their health, if you can't care about immigrants, what is the breaking point where someone like Misery would care enough?

What makes people care enough?

And some of it I agree with, that partisan blinders prevent people from solving problems. I do believe that the two-party system is broken, and it has turned into a personality cult. And I'm not saying that "the liberals are right" because they're liberals, but rather, I'm addressing the individual topics on their own merits. And when I addressed the gun control topic, I addressed it on its own merits. It just so happens that there is a party out there which makes an awful lot of money on weapons, and whether or not people are dying, it doesn't matter to them. That's not partisan, it's addressing the matter on its own merits, and one side does happen to be wrong.

I would posit the same thing about healthcare. It seems kind of obvious to me, every major country in the world has healthcare for all. Surely, living healthy is something we can all agree on.

I would say the same thing about people with disabilities. Should they be swept away or allowed to die because they cost money? And if that's what's happening now, are people just going to shake their heads and say "oh that's too bad"? Will people just not care because it's not them? Will people just not care because of the extreme apathy and depressing words that Misery wrote? I would say that while a literal oven is not being fired up on the White House lawn, it's being done in a much more clever way. Remove the healthcare, remove the medication and the doctors, what more devious way to remove the "burdens on society" than by taking away what gives them life? They don't need literal ovens. In the modern era, it's much more devious, much more sinister, you can remove a population by Executive Order. And that's what we see happening.

There's nothing partisan about killing your own people. And there's nothing noble about looking the other way.


It's not a matter of not caring.  It's a matter of having the very, very rare view of someone looking in from the outside.

Part of it is an effect of the fact that I'm autistic:  I'm less affected by tribalism than most, because how can one that naturally avoids others like the plague ever become part of such a tribe?  So I dont get sucked in so easily.  From that point of view, I can see what it's doing to people, and the simple fact that politics is *always* toxic.  Even just watching my own parents... I have great respect for them, and they taught me many things as I was growing up, but I'm ashamed to see them when they're in political mode.  The things they say about people..... ugh.  It's a truly nasty tranformation, and it's nearly universal when it comes to politics.  That tribalism again.  "If you're not with us, you're against us".  I see it so much, and I not only refuse to dive into the pit of gibbering hyenas, I refuse to BE one of those hyenas.

I didn't vote because even without looking stuff up, I already knew that no good would come of it.  If the other candidate had won, people would still be flipping the    hell out.  It'd still be gloom and doom:  It's just that the sources would be different.  But they'd be there, one way or another.  I'll have no part of it.  Something that Wingflier said up above is "Hillary wasnt an option for me either".  That's how I *always* see it... again, I recognize the nature of what's happening.   There is no "lesser evil" to choose from. There's only different TYPES.

As a rule, despite my admitted misanthropy, I do tend to care about people as a rule.  But politics doesnt help anyone.   There are times when it might SEEM to, but when you really look hard enough, you see that it's doing just as much damage.  No matter which way I might choose in such matters, it will hurt someone.  Misanthropic I may be, but I refuse to hurt others.  Knowing there is no GOOD choice, I simply make NO choice.  The hyenas can fight amongst themselves.

I'll say though that I know a BIT more than I will usually admit to.  You cant sit around your overly political family, who complain about things at the damn screen non-stop and never shut up unless I rant at them enough, and not hear at least SOME things.  But I didn't memorize details:  I simply heard enough to see the negativity on both sides, and negativity is something I sure as hell understand. The details dont matter to me.  So.... yeah.  No good option. 

If someone really wants to do some good:  Go volunteer.  Help the poor.  Or help those around you that are in need.  Even just a small gesture can brighten someone's life.   And I've learned over the years that THIS is what I can do for people.  As an example, it's part of why I do what I do around here.  I just dont speak of things in this manner very often... cant be breaking my own wall of dark negativity, after all.


I'll also say something here too, and I wouldnt admit this in damn near any other forum I go to: In relation to two groups that are very under fire right now, I understand well both the problems that the disabled face, and the problems that the LGBT group face.  I have my own issues in both.  I"m technically disabled, and I have my own gender issues.  So in a case like that, yeah.... I know everyone there is hurting. I dont need to look THOSE up.  And I do care, because how could I not? But again, to choose one option is only to then hurt a DIFFERENT group that I DONT know about, yet is no less important.  So, again, I choose no option, and simply do things directly in situations around me.  I can help people out that I meet from both groups in my own ways, when capable.  Even I can at least managed that.

....I really typed that stuff out, didn't I?  I may edit some of that when the caffiene wears off.  Or not, maybe in this place that'd be silly and unnecessary.


But whatever.  I think you get the gist of what I'm saying here overall.  You certainly dont have to agree with me, and that's absolutely fine.  But I can at least explain myself a bit.  Anyone that's been here knows I explain stuff alot.  Very lengthy explanations indeed.


Also I'm glad to see that this hasnt devolved into a screaming mess.  EVERY other forum I've been to, even the autism one, this would have degraded into a shrieking ball of flaming stupid within three posts.  It's a freaking tragedy to watch. 

Offline z99-_

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2017, 08:42:45 PM »
Misery for president 2020.

"There is no good choice, no lesser evil to choose from. So just choose me! Uhh, but I guess that would still be choosing someone, wouldn't it? Hmm, this is confusing ... what were we talking about again?"

Offline Misery

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2017, 08:50:53 PM »
My thoughts have always been that we could just put a small poodle or something in charge.  Would get better results that way.

Offline z99-_

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2017, 08:58:54 PM »
A cat would get the same results as now, but it would be far more enjoyable to watch.

Except it would probably insist on napping on the nuclear launch button ... but AIWC and SR have taught me to associate pain with fun, so I guess that wouldn't be too bad.

Offline wwwhhattt

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2017, 09:57:43 PM »
On getting people to vote:

In Scotland the percentage of people voting in UK elections had decreased from 75% in 1992 to 63% in 2010 (the low point being 60% in 2005).

In 2014 there was the independence referendum with 84%* (No: 56%. Yes: 44%), and in the 2015 election the turnout rose to 71% (almost the same as 1997), with 4 of the top 5 constituencies for turnout being in Scotland (and the only 2 to have over 80%). 2015 was also the first election since 1979 that Scotland's turnout was higher than the UK average.

In the independence referendum there were only 2 areas with less than 80% turnout. Both were areas with high unemployment and low life expectancy, and both voted for independence.

In the 2005 UK election the results in Scotland were:

Labour: 41
Liberal Democrats: 11
Scottish Nationalists: 6
Convervatives: 1

In 2010

Labour: 41
Liberal Democrats: 11
Scottish Nationalists: 6
Convervatives: 1

And in 2015:

Scottish Nationalists: 56
Labour: 1
Liberal Democrats: 1
Convervatives: 1


Clearly the referendum was hugely important, but then so was the EU referendum which only got a 72% turnout. I think the main reasons are that the independence campaign was largely based on plans (specifically, increased welfare and getting rid of nuclear weapons) that the 3 major UK parties were against to varying degrees, and so people who would normally feel that voting was pointless actually had something to vote for rather that against.

As you can see from the changes between 2010 and 2015 it also disrupted the tribalism Misery criticizes (it used to be said that you voted for whatever monkey wore Labour's badge). This is probably partly because 2010 ended with a Conservative-Liberal coalition (also a major reason why the Liberals did so badly), so the SNP looked more likely to get into power, but I can't imagine that that alone would account for such a dramatic change.

From what I saw of the US election (only from polls and Democrats, I don't know any republicans) it looked like Clinton wasn't offering anything beyond lesser evil status beyond smoothly continuing a form of politics that normal people have less and less use for. Trump didn't do so well either (judging from the polls they both did as well as you'd expect from a losing nominee), so I guess neither of them had anything different (from the past) to say.

Hope this helps, but I don't know US politics well enough to apply stuff. I might edit it later if it's too aimless and unreadable.


*Fun fact, the last time there was a higher turnout was before men who didn't own property and any women at all had the right to vote.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 10:04:56 PM by wwwhhattt »

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2017, 10:36:31 PM »
I didn't vote because even without looking stuff up, I already knew that no good would come of it. 

 ??? What? Even without researching, you have the answers?

If the other candidate had won, people would still be flipping the    hell out.  It'd still be gloom and doom:  It's just that the sources would be different.  But they'd be there, one way or another.  I'll have no part of it.  Something that Wingflier said up above is "Hillary wasnt an option for me either".  That's how I *always* see it... again, I recognize the nature of what's happening.   There is no "lesser evil" to choose from. There's only different TYPES.

I have Wingflier on ignore, ever since the conspiracy theory thread. It's my opinion that he is nuts. But for a moment, I'll take a look at his post.

I don't care if she was running against Hitler himself, I wouldn't have voted for her.
:o
Oh yes, back on ignore.

Well, I do think you have challenges Misery that might prevent you from being able to do the math. I'm not blaming Trump on you personally, although collectively I do blame it on folks that can't be bothered to learn. I would be able to take what you're saying a little bit more credibly if you had some kind of fact-based opinion (although you keep repeating that you didn't research anything), but what you're saying is, either possible universe would be bad so it's best not to participate. Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

I fundamentally can't understand head-in-sand realities. It's hard for me to understand the notion that not learning, not bothering to be educated, is somehow a valuable pursuit. I don't know what to say to that. I think you are around the same age I am, I don't have any hopes of convincing you that caring about others and learning about the world is valuable if you haven't come around to that by this point. I will say that not everyone has the ability and the luxury of being safe and secure in their bubble as you do. Some people suffer a very real reality where living is at stake, it's not a wash, both possible universes are not equal, and they need a little bit more from their neighbors. They need you to show up every two years. Even if you don't think you are needed, you are. But it's your choice to ignore that call.

It's been pretty incredible to see the very idea of facts being questioned. Our very scientists are being muzzled. The idea that ignorance is somehow valuable and noble, that it's a legitimate pursuit. I do volunteer in my community. I'm an active participant in the process.

I'm hoping that in midterms, in two years, we will have people who care about others show up.
 
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2017, 12:30:42 AM »
It'd be interesting to see what would happen if each candidate got X funding each from some sort of election dept and no more, but then we'd probably just see more bullshit like pulling the floor out from bernie because of not being able to throw money and news at the people either boring, terrible, or suspicious enough to run for political office.