Arcen Games

Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Mánagarmr on August 16, 2012, 04:54:19 AM

Title: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 16, 2012, 04:54:19 AM
Kickstarter page (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts)
The graphics might be a bit wonky so far, but the team looks experienced, and I'm definitely behind their "RTS:s of today SUCK!". There hasn't been a proper RTS to play since the TA/SupCom days (I'm not counting AI:War as an RTS. It's AI:War, a genre on its own). This looks intriguing. Will follow with interest.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: dlcooper on August 16, 2012, 05:27:15 AM
Thanks for the heads up on this one.  Looks very good.  At least they have an experienced team.  You're right, the graphics do look unusual.  Only one other kickstarter I've backed, Xenonauts, but I may have to consider this one.  Definitely will be keeping any eye on this.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zebramatt on August 16, 2012, 05:58:49 AM
The graphics look great!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 16, 2012, 09:41:39 AM
Ermagersh! Awesome! Totally agree with the "there haven't been enough good RTSes lately" (and End of Nations let me down too :( ). Will definitely be picking this up when possible.

Woot, it also has the GFX engine guy and art directer from SC. Top-notch talent right there!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Total Annihilation is my favorite game of all time, so naturally, I am completely stoked about this.

By the way, my friends and I play Spring RTS Total Annihilation all the time, and we're looking for more victims, ahem players.

If anybody loves TA come play with us!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: TechSY730 on August 16, 2012, 10:10:47 AM
Total Annihilation is my favorite game of all time, so naturally, I am completely stoked about this.

By the way, my friends and I play Spring RTS Total Annihilation all the time, and we're looking for more victims, ahem players.

Woa, RTSs based on the Spring engine. It's been a while since I have played any of those. Once my new laptop comes in, I'll have to download it and play around with it again. :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 16, 2012, 10:11:10 AM
I took a look at Spring, but honestly, I prefer SupCom...I dunno why really. Still play that with my friends some times.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 11:16:17 AM
I dislike SupCom and SupCom 2 because they are no longer being supported by the developers.

Both games had so much potential, but were left in a semi-half-baked status because they seemed like a quick money grab.  I've actually lost all respect for Chris Taylor, one of the biggest minds behind Total Annihilation, because he never sticks with ANYTHING he does.

Seriously let's go through the list:

Total Annihilation
TA:K
Dungeon Siege
Dungeon Siege 2
Space Siege
Demigod
Supreme Commander
Supreme Commander 2
King and Castles - a game which he didn't even finish because he went to make Age of Empires Online instead where another developer left off.

All of those games had so much potential but he never sticks with anything he does.

I love Spring RTS and Balanced Annihilation because they're constantly being updated and improved.  The BA devs are working on a patch for Balanced Annihilation called Balanced Annihilation: Revolution, which completely updates all the old TA models made for a 2D engine, making them look unique and beautiful.  It's the small things like that which gives a game longevity.  I wait for this game impatiently, in the hopes that they continue supporting it long after it's created.  It seems like their track record is good so far, with Super Monday Night Combat being the successor to the fairly lackluster first game.  If they're that willing to revamp a mistake and keep supporting it, I have a lot of faith in them.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 16, 2012, 11:49:04 AM
Yeah, I stuck with both FA and SC2 for as long as I could, had tons of fun though the communities are dead =/ Still give FA campaign a spin now and then.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 11:53:38 AM
Well at least this is a new game that doesn't quite ask for a million dollars.

Will drop 20$ if they break the 800k mark.


Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 12:12:13 PM
Dude the Kickstarter started yesterday and they're already at nearly $200,000. 

They're going to reach $800,000 in no time.  I'm most likely going to donate $100, this is the most exciting game prospect I've seen since the rather disappointing Supreme Commander.

I grew up playing Total Annihilation, it was a huge part of my childhood.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 16, 2012, 12:21:16 PM
Just giving the page a good read, it sounds like a really fun game. I haven't played Total Annihilation but I'm pretty excited about what it looks like knowing nothing else. That says a good deal for them I'd say.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 12:21:36 PM
I look forward to giving my 20$ in a short time  :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zebramatt on August 16, 2012, 12:47:29 PM
I don't understand why you would wait. You don't end up contributing anything unless the campaign is successful, so pledging $20 now is exactly the same as pledging $20 when they hit $800 000, which is exactly the same as pledging $20 at any point in the entire life of the campaign...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 12:50:36 PM
Dude the Kickstarter started yesterday and they're already at nearly $200,000. 

They're going to reach $800,000 in no time.
Watching a few kickstarters I've seen enormous initial booms and then a far more gradual increase, followed by a rush at the end. so it may take longer than you think.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 16, 2012, 12:54:46 PM
After having watched the video:

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 16, 2012, 01:08:16 PM
Notice that the "video" is just CGI nonsense. Gameplay visualization means it's rendered in a 3D suite, not by an actual engine with actual gameplay logic. Still it looks pretty impressive, and if they pull this off and the mod-support is not a complete joke like SC1 or SC2 then maybe I will buy it when it is out :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on August 16, 2012, 01:41:10 PM
I'm afraid to pledge anything.. what if the game is buggier than an ant-hill.. like Sword of the Stars II. (Good thing I didn't buy SOTS 2. I might if all problems are fixed)

Think I'mma wait till it's (or if it is) released on Steam.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 01:45:32 PM
I'm afraid to pledge anything.. what if the game is buggier than an ant-hill.. like Sword of the Stars II. (Good thing I didn't buy SOTS 2. I might if all problems are fixed)
You could just pledge $1 or $5 or whatever you're willing to risk :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 01:59:04 PM
I don't understand why you would wait. You don't end up contributing anything unless the campaign is successful, so pledging $20 now is exactly the same as pledging $20 when they hit $800 000, which is exactly the same as pledging $20 at any point in the entire life of the campaign...

No it is not.

If I send it at 800k there is a great likely hood they will make their goal and the money will achieve its full value.

If I send it early, the value of the good is uncertain, since the kickstarter may or may not be a success.

As Keith said, Kickstarters start with a huge rush, peter out toward the middle, then finish strong. I prefer to wait till the finishing stage, so I know exactly what I get.

I am not accusing the company the company of anything bad, but on the other hand, if the kickstarter is to get the game rolling, and the prize I get is to get the game, I will wait till I feel the kickstarter will 100% be a success. Otherwise, I will just wait till it is out and buy it then.


I'm a dunderhead and don't know things.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on August 16, 2012, 02:03:08 PM
If it's not funded will I get back my money?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 02:06:18 PM
If it's not funded will I get back my money?
If it's not funded your money never leaves your account.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 02:18:29 PM
Oh...didn't know that.

Welp, erase all that earlier now known to be known nonsense.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 16, 2012, 03:08:29 PM
mod-support is not a complete joke like SC1 or SC2 then maybe I will buy it when it is out :)
SC2 maybe... SC1? How was the mod support a joke?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on August 16, 2012, 03:21:57 PM
Looks good...but we haven't had a good RTS in a long time...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on August 16, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Well, if the finished game takes its visual cues from TF2 the way the teaser video does, it might fix something that always bugged me about TA: a fantastic, polished, challenging game that lacked any sort of personality.

Ah, so my emotionless robot race defeated this other emotionless robot race. Fantastic.

This video actually reminds me a bit of a short story by Del Rey, where a race of robots exploded across the galaxy, propelled by fury, anger, and a very real hatred toward humanity. Their goal was to completely extinguish every trace of humans off the face of the universe. They colonized worlds, launched warships, multiplied by the trillions. Along the way, they subjugated alien races, but instead of reducing them to slaves or whatever, they ended up dramatically improving the lives of everyone they came in contact with, sharing technology and providing a common space for culture and peace to spread. This was fine, but it was of secondary concern to the robots, who merely wanted to eradicate their hated enemy.

In the end it turned out the humans both created the robots to seek and kill other humans, and then the dopes actually extinguished themselves. They were never a threat, and the robots were only carrying out their mechanical and emotional programming. The king robot is presented with evidence of this, and he just destroys it because it would undermine all the awesome good that their war-that-never-started was still bringing to the galaxy.

I love old robot and rocket stories from the 60s and 70s.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 16, 2012, 05:07:07 PM
mod-support is not a complete joke like SC1 or SC2 then maybe I will buy it when it is out :)
SC2 maybe... SC1? How was the mod support a joke?

The things that mattered were hard-coded... which is why you know of so many large SC1 mods ;p (Of which there aren't any...) although I guess you could script some things with lua, but you couldn't teach the AI to use these new things, so it was pointless. Worse, you couldn't fix the brain-dead unit AI ;/

SC2 fixed the unit AI with the awesome flow based movement, but had no real mod support... in the end, neither game drew in any large mod maker and so these games are dead.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Coppermantis on August 16, 2012, 06:14:23 PM
The most recent update to SC2 a few weeks ago helped the modding community quite a bit. Now custom games and mods are much more prominently displayed as an option and it's easier to get in games.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 16, 2012, 06:22:06 PM
Sadly most large mods are dead by now
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 01:50:29 AM
There were actually quite a few "large mods" for SC1. BlackOps being the most popular one with their improved commanders, balance changes and loads of new units. But some things were out of modding scope, which was annoying, to say the least. I didn't play much online though, only 10-20 games perhaps. Otherwise I played with friends.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 17, 2012, 02:01:52 AM
Yeah my comment on SC1 was mainly aiming at... that despite community demands (or requests) Gas Powered games never gave a damn AT ALL and then threw out FA which not only broke the balance entirely but made modding even more a pain in the backside. But worse maybe, added units for which the AI was so terribly that their own unit AI broke their OWN UNITS. And let's not even get me started on Dungeon Siege 3... shudder ;/ So yeah, having anyone from GPG included in that kickstart makes me doubt the game even reaches completion, and if it does, it's probably gonna be some consolized mess like Dungeon Siege 3.

And imo as Generals showed, a modable RTS is the core requirement for it being a success. Unless you are Blizzard and can call upon endless hordes of zombie "it's from blizzard we ought to buy it" customers....

Nevermind, I am just using mods for so long my definition of "large" is completely-game-changing and Black ops is not exactly all that different from native.. commanders and few new units.. but when it comes down to it, the games core problems are un-fixed (because unfixable)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 02:10:27 AM
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to massively disagree with FA breaking balance. It did everything but. The community literally cried in joy over turtling finally being murderered with a shotgun. FA made several really good changes to the game, including an engine update that made it run almost twice as good on older systems, waaaay better UI and nerfed those stupid T4 units.

A regular match in SupCom prior to FA would involve building 6 million mass fabs and corresponding power and rush experimentals. GG. That sucked. Badly.

As for the AI, don't make me laugh. The stock AI really is terrible :P Thank god for after market mod AIs ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 17, 2012, 04:44:21 AM
Get stealth field.

Get a nuke.

Watch enemy cry.

It worked 25% of the time but was worth the attempt.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 05:22:42 AM
Get stealth field.

Get a nuke.

Watch enemy cry.

It worked 25% of the time but was worth the attempt.
Do that in FA and you'll find yourself under a metric ton of T1 bots and tanks before you can even spell "stealth field".

The only map I've managed outnuke an opponent (usually you're dead LONG before you finish the nuke, since your opponent sunk all those resources you sunk into your nuke into actual offense) was on "Four Corners", an semi-small map with four islands on it. I added a 15 minute no-rush timer (you can't leave your island) and perfected my economy until I could have a nuke up by 10 minutes and launch it seconds after the no-rush timer was out.

Fun, but useless. I was instantly obliterated by the other two players. Did get one guy to do "O_o" though.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 17, 2012, 05:24:11 AM
Get stealth field.

Get a nuke.

Watch enemy cry.

It worked 25% of the time but was worth the attempt.
Do that in FA and you'll find yourself under a metric ton of T1 bots and tanks before you can even spell "stealth field".

Should have clarified it was a late game strategy.


You certainly don't try it anything short of late game
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 05:27:16 AM
Should have clarified it was a late game strategy.


You certainly don't try it anything short of late game
Ah yes. Late game strategies varied widely with the situation. Tankspam only works so far :P A favourite of mine was to try and push offense so much that I threated the enemy commander and push him out of his "safe zone" and then pinpoint him with Strat-bombers. Always awesome to hear "Nnnnnoooooooo!!!" over voice chat as the bomber-fleet sails above his base undisputed :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 17, 2012, 05:31:10 AM
Should have clarified it was a late game strategy.


You certainly don't try it anything short of late game
Ah yes. Late game strategies varied widely with the situation. Tankspam only works so far :P A favourite of mine was to try and push offense so much that I threated the enemy commander and push him out of his "safe zone" and then pinpoint him with Strat-bombers. Always awesome to hear "Nnnnnoooooooo!!!" over voice chat as the bomber-fleet sails above his base undisputed :P

Ah strat bombers.

Fun to take advantage of sam's lack of aoe and send in two dozen for that one suicidal raid to cripple the base / commander.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 05:35:43 AM
Ah strat bombers.

Fun to take advantage of sam's lack of aoe and send in two dozen for that one suicidal raid to cripple the base / commander.
Yep. Aside from Tactical Missile Launchers, those are my favourite units. TMLs are my favourite due to the absolute sense of RAAAAAAGE that comes from your opponent when you precision strike his freshly upgraded T2 Mass Extractors and he realizes he forgot his TM-defenses.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 06:06:55 AM
Nevermind, I am just using mods for so long my definition of "large" is completely-game-changing and Black ops is not exactly all that different from native.. commanders and few new units.. but when it comes down to it, the games core problems are un-fixed (because unfixable)
Ah, then no, there were no large mods for it. There was one called "Phantom" something that introduced an entire new game mode, but that's probably the biggest I know of it terms of changes.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 07:32:44 AM
I've been following this "Revamp" mod for SupCom 2, which basically rebalances things a bit and adds the original SupCom 1 units and buildings to the game.  There's an early beta out right now, but it's pretty poorly balanced from my experience, it basically just unlocks all of the SC1 units as a "tier" in each category (Air, Land, Structure, etc.).  The way the SC1 units act though is completely faithful to the original game.  It looks like it's pretty far off from completion, but it may worth be checking out in the future.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/revamp-mod

As a person raised on Total Annihilation, the problem I had with SupCom 1 was that the design was so schizophrenic.  In FA there were 4 races, but no race really felt unique or consistent.  It seemed like they made a large group of units designed for each race, then shuffled them all and distributed them randomly among the 4 factions.  The only place you really saw each race's unique feel was in the T4 units...ironically the least-used units in the game.

SC2 was a lot better in my opinion, though a bit oversimplified. It could have been great, but Chris stopped supporting it the same way he does for all his games.

If you guys loved Supreme Commander 1 you should really come try Balanced Annihilation in Spring RTS.  Total Annihilation and SupCom 1 have a lot in common (Supreme Commander was supposed to be the "spiritual successor" to Total Annihilation after all), so you'll find yourself at home with many of the same playstyles and strategies as before.  The only key differences I can think of is that there are two races instead of four (though I like to think the two races are much more well defined), there are no "Sub-Commanders" (I never understood the point of these anyway), and there are 3 techs of units instead of 4.

You've still got a Commander, metal (mass) extractors, energy collectors, geothermal powerplants, tiers of units, metal makers, engineers, etc. 

The Tactical Nukes still exist, though they've taken a bit of a different flavor than before.  Core gets Tactical Nukes while Arm gets EMP Launchers, which disable everything in a small area for 60 seconds.  The range of the EMP launcher is 50% larger than the Tactical Nuke, which makes it better in many situations and keeps you safer while using it.

One thing I like a lot more about Balanced Annihilation than SC1 is that the Tier 1 units stay useful all game long.  Obviously they're never as useful as they are in the early to mid-game, but even lategame if you have enough of them (and use them correctly) they can be really powerful.  One of the additions I hated most about SupCom was shields.  Even in FA, I felt like they just made the game into a turtlefest because they could basically repel a weaker attack indefinitely, forcing you to tech up every game to even make a dent in your opponent.  BA has shields, but they're really expensive and they only block Kinetic weapons.  This means they're good against long-range artillery and some ground units (like Tanks), but they won't block missiles, lasers, bombs, or Nukes; in other words, they aren't the end-all defense and they don't completely negate lower-tier attacks.

So anyway, if you loved Supreme Commander and haven't given Balanced Annihilation a try, I would highly recommend it.  In my opinion it's the best ground-based RTS on the market today.  It's very critical thinking and grand-strategy based, while still managing to keep the importance of micromanagement to only a moderate amount (compared to a game like Starcraft for example).  All of the map content is made by the community so you'll never run out of different battlefields to play on, and the mod is being constantly updated and balanced by the developers.  It can also support up to 16 players at a time and has a consistent number of people who play it.

edit:  I forgot to say that because of the different economy and unit mechanics, the action starts a lot faster in TA, and stays exciting for most of the game.  This obviously depends on the players (there's nothing FORCING you to fight after all), but in general, the games seem to be a lot more involved.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 07:37:40 AM
Sub-Commanders were rarely ever used since the resources spent into building them far outweighed their benefit (and your opponent again sinking said resources into offense) so the only time they made sense to build was when you were winning...when you should sink more resources into offesnse to solidify your lead...yeah...they made no sense.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 17, 2012, 10:09:51 AM
Did I ever mention I do not play RTS games online? Like... ever? So that is where my opinions come from ;p No idea what is balanced or not, but I do know that building a hundred heavy helicopters and sending them straight at the AI bot never failed to win the match....

And I also like to turtle.. if the game offers a dozen defense techs it is imho balance breaking when that all becomes useless (as happened in FA)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 17, 2012, 10:11:00 AM
Did I ever mention I do not play RTS games online? Like... ever? So that is where my opinions come from ;p No idea what is balanced or not, but I do know that building a hundred heavy helicopters and sending them straight at the AI bot never failed to win the match....

And I also like to turtle.. if the game offers a dozen defense techs it is imho balance breaking when that all becomes useless (as happened in FA)
Well yeah, I don't know of many RTS games where that doesn't work :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 12:10:33 PM
Since I have only played RTSs competitively with friends and sometimes online, I've been forced out of the turtle mindset and now I loathe it. It makes for a long, boring and uninteresting game. Mainly because of the above mentioned heavy copter tactic. Build tons of defenses, build tons of powerful units, win. Yay...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 17, 2012, 12:15:15 PM
Since I have only played RTSs competitively with friends and sometimes online, I've beenforced out of the turtle minset  and now I loathe it. It makes for a long, boring and uninteresting game. Mainly because of the above mentioned heavy copter tactic. Build tons of defenses, build tons of powerful units, win. Yay...
Some people like to play RTS, but some of us actually just want to play Sim City and then lob very large explosive rocks at the barbarians outside our impenetrable walls.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 17, 2012, 12:18:06 PM
Since I have only played RTSs competitively with friends and sometimes online, I've beenforced out of the turtle minset  and now I loathe it. It makes for a long, boring and uninteresting game. Mainly because of the above mentioned heavy copter tactic. Build tons of defenses, build tons of powerful units, win. Yay...
Some people like to play RTS, but some of us actually just want to play Sim City and then lob very large explosive rocks at the barbarians outside our impenetrable walls.

My dad did that with Tiberium Sun for five years. He just got never get enough defending against the rabble from his high hill of death.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 12:46:27 PM
Also I just learned I should never post one my smart phone on the move. Makes for horrible spelling.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 12:48:12 PM
The great thing about Balanced Annihilation is that it boasts both offensive and defensive playstyles.

Like SupCom, every map is covered in resource spots, which an offensive player can use to expand quickly, and gain a huge economic advantage over his opponent.  However, expanding so quickly means that he doesn't have time to defend all his resources (In TA, metal extractors die in a couple shots from anything), so his "base" is very vulnerable once his opponent can start using air or guerilla-style raids to destroy his economy.

Likewise, the defensive player doesn't expand out as much, making his initial income much lower, but his base is much more compact and defensible.  As he upgrades his few resource nodes to the next Tier, he begins to make the same kind of money the aggressive player made, but in a much safer, more defensible way.

In other words, the aggressive player has a certain window of opportunity to destroy his defensive opponent before his economic advantage runs out.  The defensive player has to survive the aggressive player's onslaught until they can upgrade their base (and their defenses) enough to become an offensive threat themselves.

In a 1v1, a defensive player will usually lose to an aggressive player, but in 2v2s defensive strategies really shine because your aggressive partner can keep the enemy busy long enough for you to start getting weapons of mass destruction and finish the game in style.

Quote
Did I ever mention I do not play RTS games online? Like... ever? So that is where my opinions come from ;p No idea what is balanced or not, but I do know that building a hundred heavy helicopters and sending them straight at the AI bot never failed to win the match....
The mass air unit spam may work in SupCom, SupCom 2, or any other RTS, but it won't work in Balanced Annihilation.

There are two types of unique Anti-Air defense that I've never heard of in any other game:

(http://www.balancedannihilation.org/wp-content/modinfo/ba760/armflak.png)
1. The Flak Cannon - This is an expensive, medium-ranged, powerful anti-air battery, but what makes it so strong is that it does full damage in a large aoe.  This basically means that the enemy's incredible strength in numbers is mitigated by a huge amount.  You can still do a lot of damage with a huge air force, but it will eventually get torn to shreds by the Flak Cannons, which aren't concerned about number.

(http://www.balancedannihilation.org/wp-content/modinfo/ba760/mercury.png)
2. The Mercury Anti-Air Missile - This is an even more expensive, huge-range, anti-air missile.  If an air threat is detected by radar, it will shoot its giant, deadly accurate, and high-powered missile halfway across the map to take out enemy aircraft in a large aoe.  This can be used to create areas of "Restricted Airspace" around your base for lingering threats, or soften up a heavy bomber attack before it gets in range of your Flaks.

Of course there are also other types of air defenses that are cheaper and more single-target focused as well, but these are the two specifically that prevent a player from just winning by a huge air attack, in a manner that I haven't seen accomplished in other RTS games.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 12:50:37 PM
The air spam wouldn't work in a proper FA game either. Against the AI, pretty much ANYTHING works because it's brain dead.

As for Balanced Annihilation, it sounds pretty much exactly like FA. Which is a good thing, because FA is the only RTS game I can touch without screaming loudly.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 12:52:50 PM
I forgot, were there Flaks in FA?  I know in SupCom 2 there aren't, much to my disappointment.  Air spam in SC2 is a very viable strategy.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on August 17, 2012, 12:54:17 PM
Air spam in SC2 is a very viable strategy.
Almost anything is viable in SC2. It's all about how fast you can smack the buttons (like headshotting in CS)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 12:59:34 PM
No I mean Supreme Commander 2, not Starcraft 2.  Though pressing buttons random buttons fast won't do you much good in either, I assure you :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 01:55:03 PM
I forgot, were there Flaks in FA?  I know in SupCom 2 there aren't, much to my disappointment.  Air spam in SC2 is a very viable strategy.
There were T1, T2, T3 air defences in FA. With the proper balance mods, the T3 Flaks were absolutely lethal to anything in the air, aside from heavy gunships, and even them had to be a bunch to survive. Unless you happened to be Seraphim. Their T3 AA absolutely sucked. They compensated with having an absolutely ridiculus T3 mobile AA in their T3 sub when surfaced.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on August 17, 2012, 02:32:56 PM
How's the AI in Balanced Annihilation? I don't play multiplayer versus in strategy games, partly because I have RSI in both arms and take a lot of breaks, and partly because I don't have the spare time to get to a competitive level.

Sideline: http://www.shonner.com/ta/tacomputerai.htm

"MAKE THE AI PLAY MORE AGGRESSIVE IN TOTAL ANNIHILATION"

It's an interesting article on editing the AI file for TA. I know Wingflier indicts the developer for abanonding his game, but from my POV he left it a heck of a lot more open than a lot of other games I've played. From what I understand, players really took the game and ran with it, creating dozens of new units. Are there any articles on how this guy specifically has a record of creating, then abandoning his games? Or is he just like any other developer, moving onto the next project once he finishes the first one?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 04:26:32 PM
Chris Taylor, though he likes to take credit for it, was not the project lead for Total Annihilation.  In fact, from talking with one of the people that worked with him, many of the people in company actually shot down some of his ideas, or ignored some of his design advice.

I think this is incredibly obvious by the fact that Supreme Commander turned out to be a very disappointing successor to Total Annihilation, and different in many ways; the same way Diablo 3 turned out to be disappointing game compared to its predecessors.  The great minds behind the project, who really understood how and why it worked, are gone.

I don't think we can give Taylor complete credit for Total Annihilation, because he was simply a part of the team, whatever he would have you believe.

In the games since then that he has become the project leader:

Dungeon Siege 1 & 2
Space Siege...
Demigod
Supreme Commander 1 & 2

Well, I'll let you decide.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 17, 2012, 04:29:58 PM
The reason why I don't like Spring RTS engine much (or any other RTS apart from SupCom 2) is that they have a great open platform, but totally broken ass pathfinding. No flow dynamics in formations (no formation pathing at all) and so what happens is what I call the "wall of fire" problem..

You see, when you order 2 formations attack via move-attack each other only the first units fire and then stop which leaves the units behind those first ones in a bit of a problem, now they have to path AROUND the first line creating a wall of units that fires.. and then STOPS and finally, the units first stopped are now dead which means there is a huge hole and because a tight formation always wins in this case, the best tactic is to never attack if forces are even. Which is of course, totally stupid.

In reality, what I described is of course how a good broken pathfinding works, a totally broken pathfinding makes the units in row 2 stop entierly because no path resolves for the units in the center of a group. As you can tell, I don't much like games with broken pathfinding ;) And supcom2 has the best. The absolute, completely, best pathfinding of any RTS ever made. And this is why I am actually a bit miffed supcom2 received so little mod support. Because that game is revolutionary in some ways, but it dies off without any POINT because GPG dropped it like a wet sack of rice (and the pathing feature with that)

Sidenote: It is a while since I tried Spring RTS, so should this issue have changed I'd like to know...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 07:01:59 PM
The reason why I don't like Spring RTS engine much (or any other RTS apart from SupCom 2) is that they have a great open platform, but totally broken ass pathfinding. No flow dynamics in formations (no formation pathing at all) and so what happens is what I call the "wall of fire" problem..

You see, when you order 2 formations attack via move-attack each other only the first units fire and then stop which leaves the units behind those first ones in a bit of a problem, now they have to path AROUND the first line creating a wall of units that fires.. and then STOPS and finally, the units first stopped are now dead which means there is a huge hole and because a tight formation always wins in this case, the best tactic is to never attack if forces are even. Which is of course, totally stupid.

In reality, what I described is of course how a good broken pathfinding works, a totally broken pathfinding makes the units in row 2 stop entierly because no path resolves for the units in the center of a group. As you can tell, I don't much like games with broken pathfinding ;) And supcom2 has the best. The absolute, completely, best pathfinding of any RTS ever made. And this is why I am actually a bit miffed supcom2 received so little mod support. Because that game is revolutionary in some ways, but it dies off without any POINT because GPG dropped it like a wet sack of rice (and the pathing feature with that)

Sidenote: It is a while since I tried Spring RTS, so should this issue have changed I'd like to know...
Well there's a few things I want to address here.

1. Total Annihilation is not like your typical RTS, you don't have to tell your units to "ATTACK" something.  When an enemy comes in range, they automatically fire, unless they have the "hold fire" option toggled.  So in order for your units to fire at the enemy, all they have to do is be in range of the enemy.  Now there is a small bit of micromanagement involved by putting your fastest, closest range units in the front, and your slower, longer-range ones in the back, but that doesn't seem unreasonable at all.  Once again "blobbing" is a bad design mechanic.

In Balanced Annihilation, you don't even have to physically see the enemy in order to fire at them!  Units will shoot at radar blips if they are in range.

In other words, perhaps you didn't understand the way combat works in BA.  You don't select your blob, press move-attack, then forget about them.  You need to have at least a moderate amount of micromanagement (nothing major, just making sure every unit is in range, and the fragile units are in the back), which isn't a problem since the game automatically takes care of most of the macromanagement aspect for you.  One of the things I've always loved about TA, is that unlike other strategies games (*COUGH* Starcraft), Total Annihilation WANTS you to be in the battle.  It makes base management easy, and makes battle micromanagement complex enough that you need to be there to succeed, but simple enough that it's not overwhelming. 

2. Supreme Commander 2's pathfinding was nice, but a bit unrealistic.  (For anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about, here's the video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bovlsENv1g4).  If your units are moving through each other, it makes sense that they move out of the way and stay in formation; but it is absolutely ridiculous and stupid that 2 formations of enemy units make a perfect hole for each other to move through, as if they've both agreed to politely let the other pass (while killing each other). 

Secondly, SC2's formation system was very linear.  The game made the formations for you and you couldn't change them.  You couldn't choose whether the units move at group move or individual speed, so everything is ALWAYS in formation and ALWAYS moving at group speed.  Can you imagine if AI War played like this?  This was especially troubling when you have fast, mobile units grouped with Colossal, Experimental Units which move at the speed of molasses.  The other big problem was that all the units had to be ordered to a specific location.  This always really bothered me.

Spring RTS is the ONLY RTS engine that allows you to make your own quick and simple formations with the drag of a button.  I swear to God, this system is so simple and intuitive, I can't believe nobody else has thought of it or used it.  Simply by selecting your squad, and drawing a line on the screen, you choose how your formation ends up when you reach your location.  With this command, you can easily make walls, Blitzkriegs, search patrols, squares, delta formations, or any formation you want instantly.  I'll take this over the unrealistic "Flow Pathfinding" any day.

Here are some examples:
(http://i.imgur.com/Fh3Ji.jpg)
-----------
(http://i.imgur.com/VKjIJ.jpg)
-----------
(http://i.imgur.com/Mh7of.jpg)
-----------
(http://i.imgur.com/TmFX2.jpg)
-----------
(http://i.imgur.com/GCudw.jpg)
-----------
(http://i.imgur.com/EtKWu.jpg)
-----------

Now tell me THAT isn't cool.  By the way, all the red drawing and lettered markers you saw were done IN-GAME.  That's their in-game whiteboard system, which makes it easy to communicate and plan strategies with allies - another unique feature that no other RTS game has.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 17, 2012, 09:40:19 PM
Never knew those features even existed.. which just goes to show.. that what Spring RTS really needs is a proper tutorial  :o

But your point is true yet it the issue remains, try the same thing with 2 groups of 100 units ;) And move them over a land mass that is narrow.. have fun ;) 0 prediction of paths means units block themselves and each other, it looks *exactly* like the "bad" example in the flowfield trailer ;) (worse maybe, some units take alternative routes, I've seen this more than once.. maybe they fixed it by now.. but I am too lazy to try this now.. setting spring rts up, and that they don't ship a proper "lobby" with it and then finding the AI's that work with this or that mod always annoys the heck out of me. I want a package! ^^

And yeah, I always play AI War with "everyone move the same speed" until enemy combat.. I actually HATE that this feature was removed as a proper toggle in the GUI, because it is the button I most often used, and now I always have to slug through that terrible context menu. (yeah, now thats a random complaint huh ,p)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 09:54:12 PM
100 vs. 100 unit battles generally aren't that common in Total Annihilation.  Units are generally more expensive/cost effective than that, and they scale up.  Add this to power of many AoE defenses and weapons, and having that strategy really goes to waste.

In other words, "The Swarm" isn't really a legitimate tactic in the game.  You can have a small raiding party of...let's say at most 40 Tier 1 units, and do heavy damage (maybe even win the game).  Anything more than that is just being wasteful.  If you can't do it with 40, you can't do it with 100.  This is because units leave corpses in TA, so the more your front line dies, the harder it is for your back line to get through since they're running into the dead husks of your old units. 

For this reason, it's much better to strike effectively in a lightly (or non) defended area with a strike force, than to try and brute force your opponent.  You'll never defeat an experienced opponent that way.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 17, 2012, 10:30:58 PM
But I like the swarm ;P Do you not know? More explosions = good! And I like the huge battles you can have in Sup Com 2... hence I am looking for a mod that does this in the spring rts engine.. any such mod? The TA mod you linked to is way way way too close to TA for my taste. I mean it looks exceptionally ugly and way too small scale.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 18, 2012, 09:14:04 AM
Personally I think huge battles for the sake of huge battles is a bit silly (though I can see why you'd like it).  If each unit in the battle serves its own purpose and is used in an important way, that's fine, but that rarely happens.

Games like Balanced Annihilation and Wargame: European Escalation are my favorite type of Strategy Game because of their emphasis on squad-based tactics and intelligent use of your team.  AI War has this to a lesser extent but most of the battles seem to devolve into "my blob" vs. "your blob" combat, which like you said, may look cool, but doesn't offer a lot of depth or take much personal skill from the user, save what to actually put into your composition.

Even in SupCom 2, you could build 100 units or you could build a Monkeylord.  The problem with games that emphasize massive unit battles (from my experience) is that many of the units just turn out to be cannon fodder for your real weapons (we've been having this discussion in General lately :P).  Obviously in real war, no self-respecting general would sacrifice their own men as cannon fodder for their heaviest weaponry, this only happens in some RTS games.  If every unit on the battlefield didn't have an important purpose, it wouldn't be on the battlefield.

Anyway, I guess the realistic aspect of it for me outweighs the "wow" factor of 2 giant armies clashing together for the sake of clashing together.  Though I have to admit that I haven't played many "historical" RTS games (like the Total War Series), so maybe they offer that sort of thing, I don't know.

I donated $95 to the Planetary Annihilation project.  They just announced that it will be DRM free, and offer Offline/LAN support.  What an amazing company, I can't wait to play.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/289765
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 18, 2012, 02:59:04 PM
Personally I think huge battles for the sake of huge battles is a bit silly (though I can see why you'd like it).  If each unit in the battle serves its own purpose and is used in an important way, that's fine, but that rarely happens.
Which is strange, because you're playing AI war :D
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 18, 2012, 03:01:55 PM
Personally I think huge battles for the sake of huge battles is a bit silly (though I can see why you'd like it).  If each unit in the battle serves its own purpose and is used in an important way, that's fine, but that rarely happens.
Which is strange, because you're playing AI war :D
Yea, he fusses at us for it too ;)

AIW is far less focused on massive-unit-counts than it used to be, though.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 18, 2012, 03:20:05 PM
Well AI War has a few things that no other RTS does (or at least does well) -

The AI (obviously), which is sucky for most other RTS games.
Huge number of configurable settings and minor factions.
80 Planet battles where the enemy has a massive advantage over you.

Besides that I've always liked the concept of space battles, and most other Space RTS games (especially the recent ones) are either really shallow or just flat-out bad.

So I guess what I'm saying is that even though AI War has its flaws, I still think it offers an experience that can't be matched by other games.  I don't think people realize how much better it would be if it wasn't so much about two big blobs smashing into each other indiscriminately, but it's still worth playing in spite of that.

Quote
AIW is far less focused on massive-unit-counts than it used to be, though.
And it's much better for it :D
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 18, 2012, 09:39:15 PM
By the way, allied unit pathing in Balanced Annihilation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDsp6i2Yv8w&feature=player_embedded#!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 18, 2012, 09:51:14 PM
3 stragglers ;)

So they fixed this then? So what mod "Game" to try, and remember, I like epic battles and good AI, not 30 units TA style battles ;P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 18, 2012, 10:32:13 PM
So I guess what I'm saying is that even though AI War has its flaws, I still think it offers an experience that can't be matched by other games.  I don't think people realize how much better it would be if it wasn't so much about two big blobs smashing into each other indiscriminately, but it's still worth playing in spite of that.

Quote
AIW is far less focused on massive-unit-counts than it used to be, though.
And it's much better for it :D
Have you considered doing a "starship only" game? Where you just build Spire stuff, Golems, starships ofc, and any fleetship with a cap <= 20 (the may-as-well-be-starships-but-isn't stuff*)? Should be quite doable now that there are a ton of super-heavy fleetships and a bunch of extra starship types from days of yore.

*glares at Keith and Chris for not adding bonus Starship types
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on August 18, 2012, 11:07:23 PM
Askin' again: is there a single player AI in Balance Annihilation, and is it worth a poop? If so, how's the comp stomp action?

I'm not real optimistic here if the pathfinding ain't great.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 18, 2012, 11:10:23 PM
Obviously in real war, no self-respecting general would sacrifice their own men as cannon fodder for their heaviest weaponry, this only happens in some RTS games.


Rest of your post I mostly agree with, but since you brought up real life it is more common then you think. It isn't quite the "this is a meatshield" like it feels in RTS, but the military evolves surprisingly around having most of the military simply supporting a select few.

For aircraft, weasels (aircraft made to shoot ground to air defenses) and interceptors exist solely to give bombers the best chance to deliver their payload safely. In one form or another, all avenues of the airforce exist to either protect its own bombers or to shoot down enemy bombers except transports.

For ground combat, infantry and mounted infantry is used to suppress and screen for the heavier and more powerful armor, for while the armor is in many ways stronger they are blind. This is a very murky situation, but it is common enough in offense and in defense to bring up.

In naval combat, aside from raiders like submarines and pickets most action involve battle-groups which are eerily like blobs in ai wars. The battlegroup is made so the lighter vessels surround to protect the biggest, most vulnerable, and most destructive ship, the aircraft carrier.

To conclude, while it is not the sometimes portrayed rts strategy of a meat shield, even in military today generals willingly put cheaper, more common assets to protect the more valuable, higher firepower assets.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 18, 2012, 11:18:41 PM
In naval combat, aside from raiders like submarines and pickets most action involve battle-groups which are eerily like blobs in ai wars. The battlegroup is made so the lighter vessels surround to protect the biggest, most vulnerable, and most destructive ship, the aircraft carrier.
I really have no idea, just curious: when's the last time a naval combat action got to the stage of two battlegroups getting into shipboard cannon (not guided-missile) range of each other?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 18, 2012, 11:23:33 PM
In naval combat, aside from raiders like submarines and pickets most action involve battle-groups which are eerily like blobs in ai wars. The battlegroup is made so the lighter vessels surround to protect the biggest, most vulnerable, and most destructive ship, the aircraft carrier.
I really have no idea, just curious: when's the last time a naval combat action got to the stage of two battlegroups getting into shipboard cannon (not guided-missile) range of each other?

I think it was World War II, USA vs. Japan. Battleships and cruisers giving broadsides in the middle of the night around some channels between islands...can't remember which island though. Not a true battlegroup though. Most gun battles had carriers out of action for some reason.

I've always been in the boat (I never apologize for puns) that guided missiles are just the technological leap forward in gun ranges. Aircraft however are sneakier, faster, more cheaper as a whole (100's of aircraft instead of two dozen ships), and more flexible so  they are used via carriers instead of just cruiser wars.

[My dad's a sailor, can you tell?]
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 18, 2012, 11:43:22 PM
Quote
For aircraft, weasels (aircraft made to shoot ground to air defenses) and interceptors exist solely to give bombers the best chance to deliver their payload safely. In one form or another, all avenues of the airforce exist to either protect its own bombers or to shoot down enemy bombers except transports.
I think this is a very oversimplified view of air combat.  For one thing, the term "Bomber" is quite nebulous in today's aircraft world.  The F-15 is technically considered a Fighter Jet, but it can carry quite an explosive payload lethal to ground targets as well.  The Stealth Fighter can carry a nuclear missile on-board and be immune to most radar detection.

Even the pure Fighter roles can be dangerous to ground targets.  In other words, Anti-Aircraft Jets do not exist just for the sake of destroying enemy bombers.  That is one of their roles yes, but not all of them.  Controlling the airspace above a battleground is extremely important for survey and reconnaissance information.  As they say, knowing is half the battle.  Fighters keep the air clear so that the recon aircraft and drones can gather information about hostile threats and future targets.  This is just as, or more important than the role of protecting Bombers, because Bombers won't know which target to strike if they don't have any intel.

Also, all military aircraft used today are multi-million dollar machines.  I hesitate to say that any of it is designed as cannon-fodder.

Quote
For ground combat, infantry and mounted infantry is used to suppress and screen for the heavier and more powerful armor, for while the armor is in many ways stronger they are blind. This is a very murky situation, but it is common enough in offense and in defense to bring up.
Infantry can sometimes be used for reconnaissance for a tank yes, but this can be done with binoculars and high-tech gadgetry, not by having to be on top of the enemy.  Tanks are actually designed to soak up fire for the infantry in order to give them cover, they are not a back-line weapons like artillery.  In other words, I don't see how the introduction of the Tank to the battlefield suddenly makes infantry into cannon fodder.

Quote
I really have no idea, just curious: when's the last time a naval combat action got to the stage of two battlegroups getting into shipboard cannon (not guided-missile) range of each other?
Well the last Battleship was decommissioned what like, 20 years ago?  If that tells you anything.

I can't speak for how naval combat worked in the olden days, though I would assume that protecting the Aircraft Carrier at all costs was the priority.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 19, 2012, 07:21:36 AM
Quote
For aircraft, weasels (aircraft made to shoot ground to air defenses) and interceptors exist solely to give bombers the best chance to deliver their payload safely. In one form or another, all avenues of the airforce exist to either protect its own bombers or to shoot down enemy bombers except transports.
I think this is a very oversimplified view of air combat.  For one thing, the term "Bomber" is quite nebulous in today's aircraft world.  The F-15 is technically considered a Fighter Jet, but it can carry quite an explosive payload lethal to ground targets as well.  The Stealth Fighter can carry a nuclear missile on-board and be immune to most radar detection.

Even the pure Fighter roles can be dangerous to ground targets.  In other words, Anti-Aircraft Jets do not exist just for the sake of destroying enemy bombers.  That is one of their roles yes, but not all of them.  Controlling the airspace above a battleground is extremely important for survey and reconnaissance information.  As they say, knowing is half the battle.  Fighters keep the air clear so that the recon aircraft and drones can gather information about hostile threats and future targets.  This is just as, or more important than the role of protecting Bombers, because Bombers won't know which target to strike if they don't have any intel.

Also, all military aircraft used today are multi-million dollar machines.  I hesitate to say that any of it is designed as cannon-fodder.

I specifically said in the end they are not used as cannon fodder, but the goal of cannon fodder is to protect the most valuable units, and that goal is still done today. Whether it is recon, interdiction, ground defense suppression, or resupply the goal is to get an aircraft of some sort to deliver its payload. All bombers do this, but all bombers don't have to be just a bomber. All aircraft are multimillion, but the best bombers are a billion, and thus while the goal may be for cannon fodder operationally you might have a few dozen fighters / multirole fighters, dedicated bombers are much fewer (dozen or less), so every effort is made to protect them.

Quote
For ground combat, infantry and mounted infantry is used to suppress and screen for the heavier and more powerful armor, for while the armor is in many ways stronger they are blind. This is a very murky situation, but it is common enough in offense and in defense to bring up.
Infantry can sometimes be used for reconnaissance for a tank yes, but this can be done with binoculars and high-tech gadgetry, not by having to be on top of the enemy.  Tanks are actually designed to soak up fire for the infantry in order to give them cover, they are not a back-line weapons like artillery.  In other words, I don't see how the introduction of the Tank to the battlefield suddenly makes infantry into cannon fodder.

Again, I did not say they were directly cannon fodder. However, much more numerous friendly infantry is used to counter enemy infantry when needed to protect armor in urban settings. Friendly infantry have to be on top of enemy infantry if not to eliminate but to at least suppress them in urban combat, which is were dismounted infantry is strongest. Binoculars and such help with recon, but infantry is best as a suppression tool for other infantry on the ground. Having binocluars won't slow enemy infantry. Modern infantry can destroy modern armor. The American "Javelin" strikes from the top of a tank's armor, and can defeat any tank today in most environments. The Russian mainstay RPG, the RPG-29, is strong enough to damage the frontal armor of a British Challenger, and is feared by the American Abrams. It's newer one the RPG - 32 is said to defeat the reactive armor, which puts it among the Javelin as able to puncture any armor. To conclude, infantry can defeat main battle tanks , so other infantry counter it since it is easier to bring sufficient numbers of infantry then it is to bring sufficient numbers of armor if possible. Which is why I also said above its so murky, because while modern infantry can modern armor tactics are designed to be mobile to prevent this as well, and in open combat the main battle tank is still king.

Quote
I really have no idea, just curious: when's the last time a naval combat action got to the stage of two battlegroups getting into shipboard cannon (not guided-missile) range of each other?
Well the last Battleship was decommissioned what like, 20 years ago?  If that tells you anything.

I can't speak for how naval combat worked in the olden days, though I would assume that protecting the Aircraft Carrier at all costs was the priority.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 19, 2012, 07:24:56 AM
That is all nice and well, but can someone actually tell me a decent Sprint RTS mod/game with a proper AI and a proper lobby (with links?) that is not TA Balanced and NOT TA AT ALL... because if I wanted to play TA, I would do that (have the original and all bonus units ever released...)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on August 19, 2012, 07:50:30 AM
Also, any question invovling battle groups is skewed. The last time true battle-groups clashed were in WWII iirc.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on August 19, 2012, 11:42:21 AM
My question is, do the planets actually get blown up? Will there be a planetcracker?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 19, 2012, 02:54:50 PM
That is all nice and well, but can someone actually tell me a decent Sprint RTS mod/game with a proper AI and a proper lobby (with links?) that is not TA Balanced and NOT TA AT ALL... because if I wanted to play TA, I would do that (have the original and all bonus units ever released...)
Evolution RTS looks like the only decent non-TA spring rts from what I can tell. I would have tried it, but i don't really wanna bother with *another* distribution platform (Desura).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 19, 2012, 05:29:00 PM
Eh Desura is kinda handy for easily downloading mods and updating them though....

LOL so my first experience with evolution RTS....

1) Starting bot match was confusing as hell, but OK, it worked.. so 1 bot match..

2) Oh, it is exactly like sup-com.. builds 2 metal and 8 gens

3) Huh, why can I only build 1 unit (engineers) in the factory...
4) HUH? why can I only build 1 defense building despite having economy...

Or basically.. HUUUUUUH? I don't get this mod.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Volatar on August 19, 2012, 07:56:07 PM
I am looking for the same kind of game that you are eRe4s3r, so please keep reporting back what you find.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 19, 2012, 07:58:27 PM
Yeah my looking already ended as far as Sprint rts goes ^^ I remembered what a pain in the backside the lobby system was.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 19, 2012, 08:07:32 PM
this (http://store.steampowered.com/app/208460/) is a possibility....
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Volatar on August 19, 2012, 08:09:54 PM
this (http://store.steampowered.com/app/208460/) is a possibility....

Wrong way bro. We want LARGER scale, not less.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 19, 2012, 08:25:53 PM
this (http://store.steampowered.com/app/208460/) is a possibility....

Wrong way bro. We want LARGER scale, not less.
Yeah, well the RTS genre is painfully underpopulated ::) The last major non-silly release of an RTS was arguably Forged Alliance/C&C4/SupCom 2 (depending on which you're anti-fanboyed vs), and the only real prospects that are upcoming is maybemaybemaybe C&C Generals 2, as well as Planetary Annihilation (ofc). Spring is around but that's a bunch of TA clones and then some lame original works, and... yeah. Lemme do some googling...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on August 20, 2012, 12:00:33 PM
this (http://store.steampowered.com/app/208460/) is a possibility....

Wrong way bro. We want LARGER scale, not less.
Yeah, well the RTS genre is painfully underpopulated ::) The last major non-silly release of an RTS was arguably Forged Alliance/C&C4/SupCom 2 (depending on which you're anti-fanboyed vs), and the only real prospects that are upcoming is maybemaybemaybe C&C Generals 2, as well as Planetary Annihilation (ofc). Spring is around but that's a bunch of TA clones and then some lame original works, and... yeah. Lemme do some googling...
The RTS genre is underpopulated because most RTS games are unbalanced.

All RTS games made by Electronic Arse are retardedly unbalanced. The "good guys" are always overpowered and the "bad guys" are just bad.. literally. Perfect examples of this are the Battle For Middle-Earth games (Gondor and Rohan) and C&C Generals (USA).

Sins of a Solar Empire (dunno bout Rebellion) is a bit unbalanced.

I think Wh40k DoW2 was unbalanced too not sure.

Rome Total War (Roman Legionaries or something like that) was retardedly unbalanced too. If you saw your enemy playing Rome you could as well save time and quit the game.

Heroes of Might and Magic III was unbalanced (Angels rock, Devils suck {again good guys>bad guys[otherwise I loved this game]}). The best units were Arch Angels>Titans>Black Dragons/Ancient Behemoths.. and everything else compared to these units were bad.

And then what balanced RTS games we have.... um.. Starcraft 1 and 2? LOL. If I remember right Heroes of Might and Magic IV was quite balanced too. Oh and Civilizations II was balanced! I still have that game.. in fact I'm looking at the cd case right now. How balanced is the newest Civilization? I tried the demo but I didn't like the fact that it DOESN'T HAVE A WORLD MAP?!?! LOL.. the only world map I could get was a MOD I would have to manually download and install. But maybe I could overcome that if the game itself is good.

AI War is quite balanced too but it's not famous. AI War does have some obviously useless ships that should be simply buffed without any polls (Anti-Starship Arachnid, Infiltrator, Deflector Drone, NYCommando, Grenade Launcher).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on August 21, 2012, 03:42:10 PM
I wouldn't call C&C4 a serious release, but thats a whole 'nother argument.

C&C Generals 2, as far as recent news goes, is not going to be much of a serious thing, unless the most recent video is about EA's F2P C&C idea and not the actual Generals 2 with less title.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 30, 2012, 09:29:57 AM
By the way, Planetary Annihilation was successfully funded yesterday. Now we're headed for the stretch goals.


Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on August 30, 2012, 09:39:56 AM
Also, TotlaBiscuit had an interview with the PA guys.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 30, 2012, 09:47:57 AM
It's looking like we'll easily make at least one or two stretch goals. If I had money I'd be giving them it right now, so I can play this game as soon as possible... I'm pretty excited about blowing up my friend's planets... and also giving my friends, who love level design, the level editor to make galaxies designed to ruin my life.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on August 30, 2012, 10:11:12 AM
I found it early enough to get into the $15 tier, so I'm good with leaving it at that, I don't have much to spend right now anyway.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 30, 2012, 10:29:47 AM
I'm content with the cost of 20$, and I'm debating the 40$ option. I'll probably stick with 20.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 30, 2012, 11:01:29 AM
I had gotten the $15 early-bird-get-the-game option, but seeing them hit the goal and already be a quarter of the way from there to the first stretch goal (naval combat, water planets) I... I wanted this stuff to happen, man ;)  $40 in.  Beta access doesn't hurt, though I know I won't have much time for it.

It's interesting, I've been in on a few kickstarters before, but this is the first one where I feel a genuine urgency that I want this project to happen.

Probably all those many, many hours I sunk into Total Annihilation...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on August 30, 2012, 11:09:34 AM
Heres the interview, by the way. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqDSh34VoPY)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 30, 2012, 11:57:21 AM
I backed both this and Project Giana (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/project-giana/project-giana) so they both got $25 backing from me. Otherwise I would've likely bumped my backing of PA. But it's a tad much, and I'm not made of money :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on August 30, 2012, 12:07:33 PM
If only I wasn't broke, I would support this :(. I really want this game after hearing them talk about it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 30, 2012, 01:00:10 PM
Anyone see the code in the completion video? Yay! it's not just vaporware!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 30, 2012, 01:05:24 PM
I find it's rather unusual to have a Kickstarter this early in development. Usually they have some gameplay videos, art and maybe even a demo up before going off.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 30, 2012, 01:06:16 PM
It's interesting, I've been in on a few kickstarters before, but this is the first one where I feel a genuine urgency that I want this project to happen.
This. Though I haven't been on any before. But this project and project Giana both had me screaming "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANT!"
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 30, 2012, 01:33:17 PM
Quote
It's interesting, I've been in on a few kickstarters before, but this is the first one where I feel a genuine urgency that I want this project to happen.
Absolutely, I agree with this wholeheartedly.  I haven't been this excited about a game since Supreme Commander 1.

I spent $100 that I don't have just to support them.  I really have a good feeling about this one.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 31, 2012, 10:43:25 AM
Nearly at 1 million!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 31, 2012, 02:04:42 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/FJ2RU.png)
Was trying to be the guy to get it to 1 million but i was an idiot and misread the number :<
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 31, 2012, 02:09:03 PM
Go RCIX!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 31, 2012, 02:10:33 PM
Aww man, I want that progenitor too. But I'm broke atm :D Hopefully I'll get richer next salary and can up my pledge.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 31, 2012, 02:17:59 PM
Anyone see http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/#chart-exp-projection ? My personal bet is it'll hit 1.5 million easy, probably in the 1.8 million ish range.

@Moonshine: I'm pretty sure you can bump up your pledge and they won't charge till the poject gets funded, if you're sure you can afford the price difference by sep 14.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 31, 2012, 02:19:43 PM
@Moonshine: I'm pretty sure you can bump up your pledge and they won't charge till the poject gets funded, if you're sure you can afford the price difference by sep 14.
That is the running point. I'm not sure I can :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on August 31, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
Metal Planets! (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/299852)
(also Lava planets!)
A link to ze picture, since theres not a spoiler tag here. (http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/139/713/7dd8d17f5d70895f2ab48647e5ec6529_large.png?1346458829)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 31, 2012, 08:50:27 PM
Go go go :)  Gotta get those enhanced orbital units at least ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 31, 2012, 08:57:30 PM
So tempted to up my pledge...I guess I can survive on noodles for half a month, right? :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on August 31, 2012, 09:40:15 PM
I'm so excited that they added the 3 miniature statues to the $100 pledge!  That is so cool!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on August 31, 2012, 09:57:40 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/OkSuH.png)
The Alpha Edition Commander shoved me over (extra 20 is for a friend's key)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 02, 2012, 11:46:16 AM
Naval Combat Get!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 02, 2012, 11:47:35 AM
Naval Combat Get!
Damn you! Came here to post the very same thing! So here goes:

WE HAVE NAVAL! YAARRR!!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 02, 2012, 11:56:21 AM
I'm even more excited about Metal and Lava Planets!  Being an old Total Annihilation vet myself, I still remember fading into the wee hours of the night on those huge metal and lava maps.  I had almost completely forgotten about them!  MUST HAVE
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 02, 2012, 11:59:17 AM
I loved playing on the Metal planets simply because you could place your extractors anywhere and still have over average output :P Didn't have to search for metal patches.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 02, 2012, 12:59:32 PM
Yea, metal planets were an awesome approach to a much higher-magnitude game, since it didn't take so long to get massive metal income and you didn't have to burn a ton of energy getting it (the converters were good, but wow-econ-cost).

Definitely glad to be getting good naval stuff, though :)  I'm hoping the orbital units in the next stretch goal include some thoroughgoing space-based ships of war.  We'll see, that may be too likely to trivialize ground/naval/anything-else combat if you can just fly around glassing enemy planets from outside their range.

When I see planets, I don't think of "venue for combat", I think of "conveniently large target" ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 02, 2012, 01:21:24 PM
When I see planets, I don't think of "venue for combat", I think of "conveniently large target" ;)
That's how I feel about Heavies in Tribes:Ascend. :P "Blueplate, here I come!"
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on September 02, 2012, 06:35:02 PM
Definitely glad to be getting good naval stuff, though :)  I'm hoping the orbital units in the next stretch goal include some thoroughgoing space-based ships of war.  We'll see, that may be too likely to trivialize ground/naval/anything-else combat if you can just fly around glassing enemy planets from outside their range.
Mavor and co said no to significant space-based combat, as that would require so much different from the rest that it may as well be a different game. =/

I'm super excited for the gas giant planets though!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on September 02, 2012, 09:55:02 PM
Still no word on my planetcracker.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 06, 2012, 10:07:19 AM
$1,242,691.
We're getting pretty close to the gas giants, and theres still a week and a day to go.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2012, 01:07:40 PM
Yea, I'd say the gas giants and orbital units are in the bag.  Lava+Metal... looks feasible, we'll see.

Seems like Uber left some money on the table by waiting so long between the last two updates.  But that's just a guess, they probably know a lot more about ks stats than I do.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on September 06, 2012, 01:59:13 PM
Lava+Metal... looks feasible, we'll see.
They could patch that in the game later or release a dlc.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2012, 02:51:26 PM
Lava+Metal... looks feasible, we'll see.
They could patch that in the game later or release a dlc.
Yea, I'm pretty confident they'll make enough money on this that they can do that if they want to.  Whether they'll want to depends on a ton of other factors.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 06, 2012, 03:49:11 PM
Don't forget, theres [unknown] amount added from the paypal function.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2012, 04:12:19 PM
Don't forget, theres [unknown] amount added from the paypal function.
But I'm not sure it actually goes towards the stretch goals:

From http://planetaryannihilation.com/ :
Quote
Are PayPal donations applied to the Kickstarter funding goal?
No, PayPal donations do not count toward the Kickstarter funding goal. However, PayPal donations will receive the appropriate rewards based on the amount. Kickstarter should be seen as the primary way to fund this project and PayPal is a backup method for those unable to fund via Kickstarter for whatever reason.

Whether that means "it just doesn't show up in the number on the KS page" or "it doesn't make progress towards stretch goals" is the part I'm not clear on.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 06, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
I'd been thinking more 'KS + Paypal - unfufilled pledges = still pretty close to the stretchgoal or past it.'
Because theres going to be at least a couple payment failures unless there isn't any.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
I'd been thinking more 'KS + Paypal - unfufilled pledges = still pretty close to the stretchgoal or past it.'
Because theres going to be at least a couple payment failures unless there isn't any.
All the "this is how you should compute how much to ask for on your kickstarter" material I've seen includes a portion for unfulfilled pledges, so I'm thinking they've already factored that in, but sure.

And it's not like they don't have any money for self-funding either: if they're really serious about wanting a given "stretch" feature in, I don't think they'll let the lack of $10k or whatever like that stop them.

But even just the $900k goal has pretty serious potential for "awesome game", we're just in the bonus rounds here.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2012, 05:49:43 PM
Personally I think they're going to hit all 5 stretch goals without a problem.  Basic human Psychology - something becomes much more valuable when it's about to end.  I think we'll see a huge influx of money to hit the 1.9 million mark, unless stretch goals 4 and 5 are unbelievably stupid.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2012, 08:19:03 PM
Have they said that stretch goal 5 will be 1.9M?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on September 06, 2012, 08:29:38 PM
No word on stretch goal pricing past metal planets, but its reasonable to assume they are at 1.7/1.9m. Another update is coming "later this week" (so today/tomorrow/saturday?) with another stretch goal and more info on the game.

On a related note, has anyone else had a Kickstarter tab open for basically the entire campaign?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2012, 09:31:08 PM
On a related note, has anyone else had a Kickstarter tab open for basically the entire campaign?
*Raises hand

Not so much the last couple of days, but for a bit there it really was a fixture on the ol' top of the browser window.

Total Annihilation is serious business.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 06, 2012, 10:26:27 PM
While I haven't kept it open, I have kept completely in touch with this discussion.
...and I'm really really hoping to pick this game up. It looks amazing and I must know what the other stretch goals will be. On this forum, I'm sure the exact moment they are posted, the post count of this thread will skyrocket and a glance will give me the update I want. No problemo.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on September 06, 2012, 11:19:34 PM
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts
...Massive funds dump incoming...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2012, 11:23:12 PM
Holy crap! Just read the update. O_o
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2012, 11:43:28 PM
ah crap, there goes 40$ for me.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 06, 2012, 11:51:32 PM
*reads update*

Shut up and take my money!
...*hands the developers a quarter*

I'm all tapped out. :(
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 07, 2012, 12:31:32 AM
Damnit, I want to support that more. But I can't add anything more to my pledge without turning it into a unsuccessful funding.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Coppermantis on September 07, 2012, 12:39:18 AM
Ohh, I so wish I had money available right now. Galactic War makes me think of Planetside, at least in the way they're describing it. In any case it looks awesome.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 07, 2012, 04:55:03 AM
*rages at empty wallet*
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 07, 2012, 07:49:40 AM
Galactic wars at 1.8 million.

What could they possibly have that is even better?

Edit: Bonus hope!

Quote
Will Paypal donations count towards stretch goals?

Yes!  At the end of the campaign we will add funds from Paypal to the final amount to determine which goals we have met.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Volatar on September 07, 2012, 08:55:27 AM
Holy moly. I really, really wish I had money now.

Looks like the final goal will be at 2 mil. Wonder what it could be hmm...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 07, 2012, 10:57:06 AM
@Cyborg: fwiw, from this latest kickstarter update:

Quote
Some pretty ambitious goals have been solidified because of your support the past few weeks. Your enthusiasm and energy has encouraged us to think even more ambitiously about the scope of Planetary Annihilation. We want you to be able to destroy units, planets, and solar systems.

Or better yet, annihilate whole galaxies.

What do they mean by "destroy"? Well, you know how slippery us developer-types can be.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Bossman on September 08, 2012, 01:09:21 PM
Galactic War? That's definitely worth putting down $100.

And Kirkland is the next town over. If I don't get a conflict that can ravage a million worlds, I could lay siege to Uber's office. To encourage them.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 08, 2012, 01:12:05 PM
Looking at the current progress-image as the kinetic-strike-asteroid closes in on the metal planet, I couldn't help hum the Imperial March, except this time it's the other way around.

Why fiddle around with hitting the planet-killing deathstar in some silly weakpoint?  Hit it with another planet-killer!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on September 08, 2012, 02:10:53 PM
I'd like to pledge $20 more but I think I'll wait till I actually see gameplay and when it's on Steam. Dunno how the game actually works and how balanced it will be etc. I don't want to be disappointed. 6 days left.. gonna have to do some thinking.
Btw.. it's "Pledge $20 or more". I live in EU and use Euros. I'd have to pledge 20€? (20 euros = 25.5940 US dollars). How would that work?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on September 08, 2012, 02:21:55 PM
Btw.. it's "Pledge $20 or more". I live in EU and use Euros. I'd have to pledge 20€? (20 euros = 25.5940 US dollars). How would that work?
I'm guessing your credit card will be charged in USD and conversion rate and commission will apply.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zebramatt on September 08, 2012, 02:24:17 PM
Yup, your pledge will be in $ and converted back at the time the campaign is successful.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on September 08, 2012, 05:09:03 PM
Well metal planets are in the bag, unless the world ends or kickstarter magically goes down till the 14th.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 08, 2012, 06:25:27 PM
Personally I think they're going to hit all 5 stretch goals without a problem.  Basic human Psychology - something becomes much more valuable when it's about to end.  I think we'll see a huge influx of money to hit the 1.9 million mark, unless stretch goals 4 and 5 are unbelievably stupid.
Have they said that stretch goal 5 will be 1.9M?
Whatever:  1.9M, 2M, 5M, whatever it is, I'm convinced they're going to hit it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 08, 2012, 07:48:28 PM
5M?  That'd be pretty impressive ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 08, 2012, 08:38:19 PM
If they got 5 mil, they'd bring a real life version of Planetary Annihilation with the rate the stretch goals are scaling.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on September 09, 2012, 12:48:00 AM
If they got 5 mil, they'd bring a real life version of Planetary Annihilation with the rate the stretch goals are scaling.
Raise 5 bils and you can finance a launch of a real spaceship to mars =)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on September 09, 2012, 01:29:43 PM
If they got 5 mil, they'd bring a real life version of Planetary Annihilation with the rate the stretch goals are scaling.
Raise 5 bils and you can finance a launch of a real spaceship to mars =)
Imagine if all defense budgets of all countries were used to research new technologies and space travel.. makes me think..
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 09, 2012, 02:48:40 PM
Thus the problem with Capitalism which nobody seems to want to acknowledge...all the wasted resources.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 09, 2012, 02:57:18 PM
Military conflict and its costs came long before capitalism  ;D
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 09, 2012, 03:02:51 PM
I'm not just talking about war, but yes, that is one very expensive byproduct of Capitalism.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 09, 2012, 03:07:03 PM
*shrug*

It's like democracy.

It's not the best and leaves a lot to be desired, but no one has found something that in practice is better overall.

Edit: whoa, I thought mixed economies were a sub branch of capitalism but I see its not clear to say, the least, but that is what I think is best.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 09, 2012, 03:13:27 PM
That's not entirely true.

The Capitalist-Socialist hybrid East European Countries are doing the best by far right now in terms of pretty much every social standard we have; as opposed to the U.S. which is basically a purely Capitalist Nation which seems to be rapidly declining (though our citizens continue to be extremely resistant to change).  Interestingly, religion in those countries is massively declining as well, while religion in the U.S. seems to be more important than ever.

Personally I think that eventually we'll find a system that completely removes Capitalism and Democracy from the equation, and takes a more Scientific approach to government than what we currently have (which is based mostly on flawed human perception and opinion).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 09, 2012, 03:27:24 PM
Oh god, guys! Don't go all political on me!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 09, 2012, 03:30:23 PM
I agree mixed economies are the best, but no one is pure capitalism, from the United States from China. They all have some oversight, but no where near enough. 

Those Eastern European countries are having the best growth, but their standards are still the lowest, and they are growing so fast in part because they started so low. The concept is like saying someone who has never ran but makes a faster % gain in improvement after a year of intense training gains compared to someone who has trained for a decade. The former has changed dramatically but the later has not, but the former hasn't magically found the best solution either.

So the Western Europe countries haven't changed much over the century no where near as much as Eastern bloc countries in economic structure. However, that doesn't necessarily account for everything either. Those Eastern European bloc countries don't have such a large financial industry, so when an economic collapse of fiance hit they are not as effected.

That doesn't mean for a second that means changes aren't needed. The financials' system of waving magic to make wealth on paper is entirely negative and only leads to problems.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 09, 2012, 04:03:42 PM
Oh god, guys! Don't go all political on me!
Or me!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 09, 2012, 04:06:40 PM
I agree mixed economies are the best, but no one is pure capitalism, from the United States from China. They all have some oversight, but no where near enough. 

Those Eastern European countries are having the best growth, but their standards are still the lowest, and they are growing so fast in part because they started so low. The concept is like saying someone who has never ran but makes a faster % gain in improvement after a year of intense training gains compared to someone who has trained for a decade. The former has changed dramatically but the later has not, but the former hasn't magically found the best solution either.
Agreed that there's no such thing as a "Purely Capitalistic"  society, though the U.S. is much more Capitalistic than most countries in the world.

I wasn't referring to the growth of the Eastern European Countries either, I was referring to their current state using modern Social Standards. 

In terms of Education, Work-Life balance, reported happiness, job opportunities, college costs, and many other factors, the U.S. is declining and the Eastern European Nations (as well as other nations such as Australia and New Zealand) are increasing.  Yes, I agree with you that the U.S. has to tackle many problems that these other nations don't because of its sheer size (in terms of population and land mass), but I'm also convinced that our extreme dependence on Capitalism is very harmful to the country.

For example, in Denmark they pay 72% of their income as taxes annually, yet Denmark is currently one of the most desirable places to live in the world with the highest reported happiness, work-life balance, and many other positive social aspects very high as well.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-happiest-countries-in-the-world.html?page=all
http://www.financialjesus.com/how-to-get-rich/top-10-happiest-countries/
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/11111111111

This really contradicts the negative American stereotype that more taxes are always a bad thing, and that a Capitalistic "trickle-down" system is going to work best for our country when it clearly hasn't (except for the extremely wealthy; America has one of the highest wealth disparities in the world, with a small percent of the population living in exorbitant luxury, and a large percentage of the population living in abject poverty).


Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 09, 2012, 04:32:55 PM
Denmark is among the most pro friendly (capitalistic friendly) economies in Europe. To quote wikipedia:

As a result of its acclaimed "flexicurity" model, Denmark has the most free labour market in Europe, according to the World Bank. Employers can hire and fire whenever they want (flexibility), and between jobs, unemployment compensation is very high (security). The World Bank ranks Denmark as the easiest place in Europe to do business. Establishing a business can be done in a matter of hours and at very low costs.[68] Denmark has a competitive company tax rate of 25% and a special time limited tax regime for expatriates.[69] The Danish taxation system is broad based, with a 25% VAT, in addition to excise taxes, income taxes and other fees. The overall tax burden (sum of all taxes, as a percentage of GDP) is estimated to be 46% in 2011.[70]

Good on Denmark for making it easy to do business while making social programs so that people are not abandoned.

Norway's economy is highly, highly dependent on oil. Over 20% of its gdp is exporting oil. Selling oil is very profitable, and is a large part of its wealth. With its huge trade surplus and wealth with few people, its no wonder its so wealthy and can afford such generous social programs. Good on them.

Looking at the Netherlands, I notice a trend. Eastern European countries for one reason or another are very good at exporting things. Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, all export huge amounts of products. Rather then the money being squandered at the highest of classes, this wealth is used on social programs which is great.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Bossman on September 09, 2012, 09:38:34 PM
OK, the economic discussion should be forked off into its own thread.

Re-rail: the funding has passed $1.5 mil, it's time to see what the final stretch goal is.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 09, 2012, 09:44:33 PM
OK, the economic discussion should be forked off into its own thread.

Re-rail: the funding has passed $1.5 mil, it's time to see what the final stretch goal is.

(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/you-must-be-new-here-willy-wonka.jpg)

It is true it was off track. But this is an arcen forum, where a thread isn't complete till a thread re-circles upon its self at least once.

So the circle of the thread life continues...yea metal and lava planets!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 09, 2012, 09:52:09 PM
Yeah a thread about AI War led to discussion of breakfast food cannons. I'm not surprised this thread accidentally went all political.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 09, 2012, 10:51:40 PM
Yeah a thread about AI War led to discussion of breakfast food cannons. I'm not surprised this thread accidentally went all political.
Breakfast food cannons and a pancake golem being stuffed into mantis, which probably wasn't expecting breakfast then. ;D
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 09, 2012, 11:02:15 PM
Personally I prefer discussions of breakfast food weaponization to discussions of capitalism, when it comes to the internet.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 09, 2012, 11:13:00 PM
Personally I prefer discussions of breakfast food weaponization to discussions of capitalism, when it comes to the internet.
/me likes this post.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 09, 2012, 11:24:13 PM
Personally I prefer discussions of breakfast food weaponization to discussions of capitalism, when it comes to the internet.
/me askes if the breakfast weapon in inside or outside of an atmosphere.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 10, 2012, 12:38:47 AM
a) The vital aspects of capitalism will be decided here, on an internet forum about video games.

b) The vital aspects of batter/syrup based warfare will be decided here, on an internet forum about video games.

It's b, folks. And I am more intrigued by the galactic warfare thing than any of the other stuff so far mentioned in the Dealbreaker/Farscaper, or whatever this thing is about the next TA spiritual sequel.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 10, 2012, 01:00:15 AM
I really wish I had the finances to support this, but I just did my budget for the month and its a no-can-do for me. That depresses me. Stupid college. :(

Oh well, guess I'll get a chance to get this sucker when it comes out in all its glory later on.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zebramatt on September 10, 2012, 01:08:07 PM
I really wish I had the finances to support this, but I just did my budget for the month and its a no-can-do for me. That depresses me. Stupid college. :(

Oh well, guess I'll get a chance to get this sucker when it comes out in all its glory later on.

Forego food for a day!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 10, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
I really wish I had the finances to support this, but I just did my budget for the month and its a no-can-do for me. That depresses me. Stupid college. :(

Oh well, guess I'll get a chance to get this sucker when it comes out in all its glory later on.

Forego food for a day!

Yeah, I don't pay $20 a day for food. I pay $60 a month for food.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Lancefighter on September 10, 2012, 06:41:30 PM
So that planetary annihilation thing. I mostly have been ignoring it, because I didn't expect the whole naval battles thing to happen. And now they are trying to infringe upon ai war's theory of galaxy conquest?

I am disappoint.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 10, 2012, 06:44:20 PM
No, tis a different thing. They're blowing up galaxies because in the potentially grimdarkness of the far future, no one remembers a bloody thing about why they are fighting in the first place. But explosions are still neat to watch.

AI war is galatic conquest with less huge explosions, and the guys in the scrolltext knowing why they're fighting.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Lancefighter on September 10, 2012, 07:08:14 PM
"the guys in the scrolltext"

Oh good, so I know what I'm doing ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 10, 2012, 07:19:20 PM
Not the part I'd meant, but you can use that one if you want ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 10, 2012, 07:21:30 PM
So that planetary annihilation thing. I mostly have been ignoring it, because I didn't expect the whole naval battles thing to happen. And now they are trying to infringe upon ai war's theory of galaxy conquest?

I am disappoint.
It's Real-time, and it's strategy.  Oh, and there's space involved somewhere.

That's about the extent of the similarity with AIW :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Lancefighter on September 10, 2012, 07:32:47 PM
Virtually exactly the same! see, even keith agrees with me
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 10, 2012, 07:46:04 PM
Don't forget you can play versus the AI. Total rip-off.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 10, 2012, 11:28:41 PM
So that planetary annihilation thing. I mostly have been ignoring it, because I didn't expect the whole naval battles thing to happen. And now they are trying to infringe upon ai war's theory of galaxy conquest?

I am disappoint.
Lancefighter is a cool guy, and my friend, but he went full retard with this comment.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Lancefighter on September 10, 2012, 11:33:21 PM
I had literally nothing to add to the thread, and wanted to tag it so it showed up on my 'new replies to your posts'.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Bossman on September 11, 2012, 12:36:16 AM
You know, I was wondering how a dinky little asteroid with engines was going to annihilate an entire galaxy if the funding hits $1.8 mil. Except now I know it won't be an asteroid.

It will be John Comes's big head. And it will most likely be awesome.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 11, 2012, 12:38:23 AM
They need to announce Stretch Goal 5 ASAP if they want to get people interested enough in it to start throwing their money at the computer screen.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on September 11, 2012, 04:49:58 AM
My theory is that the final stretch goal is at like 1.9m and they'll use it as one last turbo boost to speed past Galactic Annihilation.

I would up my pledge further, but having my name on a planet isn't appealing and the 250 goal is probably too much to spend on one game =p (And I really want the 1k tier, lol)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 11, 2012, 04:52:23 AM
The graphic's updated to include a face that is very interested in chowing down on the galactic wars. All it needs is the money to do so.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zebramatt on September 11, 2012, 05:06:08 AM
I really wish I had the finances to support this, but I just did my budget for the month and its a no-can-do for me. That depresses me. Stupid college. :(

Oh well, guess I'll get a chance to get this sucker when it comes out in all its glory later on.

Forego food for a day!

Yeah, I don't pay $20 a day for food. I pay $60 a month for food.

Oh, I see - you want something in return for your support! If you just wanted to support it, you could still forego food for a day and just chuck $2 their way! Every little helps  :)

Or just forego food for ten non-consecutive days. Or skip a meal a day every day for a month. Job done!  ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 11, 2012, 05:06:49 AM
Why did I have to screw up and pay the rent twice this month?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on September 11, 2012, 07:46:27 AM
So that planetary annihilation thing. I mostly have been ignoring it, because I didn't expect the whole naval battles thing to happen. And now they are trying to infringe upon ai war's theory of galaxy conquest?

I am disappoint.
It's Real-time, and it's strategy.  Oh, and there's space involved somewhere.

That's about the extent of the similarity with AIW :)
You FOOLS! Planetary Annihilation and AI War both have UI.. WoW has UI too and was made BEFORE AI War and PA. Thus AI War and PA are WoW copies.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 11, 2012, 07:48:12 AM
And WoW is a copy of TA, because TA was clearly before WoW! You're all noobs!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 11, 2012, 11:21:21 AM
They need to announce Stretch Goal 5 ASAP if they want to get people interested enough in it to start throwing their money at the computer screen.
They have been curiously slow about some updates, and I'm not sure why as I imagine if they, say, doubled or tripled their update frequency (by doing one whenever a goal is met, and whenever a goal is announced, and whenever a midpoint is reached, or something like that) they would probably bump up total pledges by a good 10% or 20% just through increased exposure and so on.

Perhaps the 1.8M stretch goal is the last thing they really want to add to the project.  Particularly considering their target release window.

As it stands, it looks probable they will hit 1.8M on Thursday.  Of course, there's normally a fairly big rush at the end of a high-profile KS, and if they want to capitalize on that they'll need a fairly interesting stretch goal #5, since #4 will basically be in the bag there.

Very interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 11, 2012, 08:21:14 PM
Final update released:

2 mil dollars - Full Orchestral Score.

2.1 mil - Documentary about the game.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 11, 2012, 08:31:04 PM
Final update released:

2 mil dollars - Full Orchestral Score.

2.1 mil - Documentary about the game.

That's it?

This is from someone who has bought a dozen OSTs...its great, but not something I'd want for a reward that is double the original game reward, and certainly not worth more then galactic conquest which is awesome.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 11, 2012, 08:32:00 PM
I didn't see that stuff on the kickstarter page. Where was that announced?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 11, 2012, 08:37:20 PM
The 2M goal is to have the music done by recording live performers.  Specifically, the same group that was used to record Total Annihilation's score.

TA's music, particularly for the battles, was incredible.

So I'm actually really hoping they hit that goal.  It's feasible, given the pattern of last-day pledge spikes on kickstarters.

The main PA project page doesn't seem to have been updated with the new stretch goals, but they do have the update up: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/306545
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on September 11, 2012, 09:00:57 PM
Oh, thanks. I was just looking in the wrong place.
I haven't used kickstarter much. Didn't notice the multiple 'tabs'
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zebramatt on September 12, 2012, 02:36:44 AM
I concur with Keith's assertion that they've probably committed to enough development tasks for the time available now - there's only so much money you can chuck at something to do more in a limited timeframe and still ensure it's all of a very high standard - but wanted to provide something nonetheless well outside the scope of the original project, like hiring a full orchestra to record the soundtrack; or a movie maker for a documentary.

Personally I'm pretty excited by the full orchestral score, I have to say! And even the documentary might turn out to be a gem, if they make it that far.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 12, 2012, 05:59:16 AM
I absolutely loved the OST for TA. Especially how it was dynamic depending on what was happening in the game. Calm, brooding music during non-combat and building, and epic, bombastic music when combat was had. It was awesome!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on September 12, 2012, 07:08:50 AM
Irrelevant for the current discussion, but I was just reminiscing about the first RTSs. The very first one (in my experience) was Dune. Then (across several years span) was Warcraft and CC. And Total Annihilation was after that. And when It came out I was not particularly impressed. I did not feel it added anything new to the genre as compared to the two clear leaders which were Warcraft and CC.

Tell me, what was it in TA (as compared to other RTSs) that was particularly appealing to you?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 12, 2012, 07:13:31 AM
First off, the graphics was absolutely something new with TA, seeing as how it was polygon based. It also had physics simulated debris, making the battles far more vivid. It had REALLY devastating weapons, long range artillery, excellent sound design (I absolutely love the sound of the Intimidator/Big Bertha) and massive battles with enormous maps and hundreds of units.

It was grand scale strategy, nothing any prior strategy game could ever have offered me. I'm not a fan of the smaller scale tactical RTS genre (like C&C, Starcraft and similar games) due to their twitchy nature and artificial balancing. The grand strategy game allows for semi-lifelike strategies to be used (bombing runs, surgical strikes against key infrastructure, long range bombardment and similar). The "small scale" tactical RTS rarely allow for such strategies since they're so fast paced. Very often those games are decided in one engagement. On Starcraft, for instance, two max supply armies meet up midfield, one scores a decisive victory due to better micro and/or unit composition, and from there it's just a question of time before the losing player "gg:s", if not right there and then.

That is simply not fun to me.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Volatar on September 12, 2012, 09:59:45 AM
And again Fox takes all the words out of my mouth.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 12, 2012, 10:36:20 AM
TA was RTS done... differently.  I've never seen an RTS that felt like that (though I haven't played Supreme Commander, I understand it to be similar to some degree).  It was my favorite singleplayer RTS experience of my youth.  Kohan comes close in its own, very different way (I'd be backing a Kohan 3 Kickstarter just as hard), but that was mainly in campaign and co-op; I think TA was substantially better on singleplayer skirmish.

Big Bertha.  That's a concept-changer right there.  And they went way more wild than that later on.

Though for me the real potential came with mods that added big multi-part mechs (beyond just the Krogoth of TA's expansion), more powerful high-tech stuff, etc.  Made my skirmishes against the AI far more entertaining.

If all this project does is turn out a modernized TA, that's more than worth the money to me.  If it also adds orbital and interplanetary stuff, and a procedural galactic campaign... wow.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 12, 2012, 10:42:38 AM
Irrelevant for the current discussion, but I was just reminiscing about the first RTSs. The very first one (in my experience) was Dune. Then (across several years span) was Warcraft and CC. And Total Annihilation was after that. And when It came out I was not particularly impressed. I did not feel it added anything new to the genre as compared to the two clear leaders which were Warcraft and CC.

Tell me, what was it in TA (as compared to other RTSs) that was particularly appealing to you?
Many things to say here:

First thing, TA was the first RTS game to be rendered in true 3D.  While you still could only have a 2D perspective, the entire battlefield happened on a 3D scale.  Bullets could miss, fly over or past their targets, hit things they weren't supposed to (including allies), etc.  This was a huge innovation into the previously 2D genre.  The scale of the game was much bigger than anything that had been done before as well.  While Starcraft may have had a 200 unit limit, TA had a 500 unit limit, which could be increased to 1,000, 5,000 or more with small patches.  The graphics were also very realistic and beautiful compared to the previous cartoony/gritty graphics of the previous games.

As has been said before, TA was the first game to put a wonderful full-orchestral soundtrack into their game, and even have the game play the right tunes for the moment!  It even had the ability to play the music from the CD in your CD Drive, so I often played Total Annihilation with the Star Wars soundtrack ;p  You could assign songs from your favorite CD to certain activities of the game like "building", "scouting", "battle".  To this day, I don't think any game has replicated that awesome feature.

In addition, the ability to go land/sea/air/hovercraft/submarine, and really cover the ENTIRE SCOPE of what was possible was a huge improvement to the genre.  Sure, Red Alert had sea, but they didn't have hovercraft, or amphibious land units.  Starcraft didn't have water at all!  The air aspect of Total Annihilation was ****ing fantastic.  The huge dog fights, air superiority battles, bombing runs, VTOL raiding, and so many other wonderful aspects that no RTS had to offer (compare it to Starcraft with boring aircraft which are basically helicopters without blades).

Finally, I have to say it:  Nukes.  Yes nukes.  No, not ****ty Starcraft or Red Alert nukes...I mean REAL NUKES.  I mean real, DESTROY THE MAP, nukes.  Get a nuke into your opponent's base and win the game.  Seriously!  What is with these crappy nukes in RTS games?  Nukes in Red Alert wouldn't even kill medium tanks, much less someone's base, and Starcraft nukes were even more pathetic than that.  Nukes in Total Annihilation felt like NUKES.  They were so powerful and did so much damage, the feeling of pure elation you got when you successfully landed one can't be compared to that of other games.  Also, the implementation of long-range artillery (as in map-wide) is another aspect that no RTS had ever done before, and it was done wonderfully.

So in closing, Total Annihilation, though not perfect, completely reinvented the genre, and added, literally and metaphorically, a new dimension.  I still think it was the best RTS game ever made, and for good reason.  Apparently Gamespy agrees with me:

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/494/494673p11.html

(mod edit: asterisk'd certain 4 letter words that don't really fit with our profanity policy (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1381.0.html); though yea, they're probably what the TA player on the other end of a nuke-worthy-of-the-name would say)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on September 12, 2012, 11:00:05 AM
Red Alert nukes...
I remember a kennel surviving a nuke..
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 12, 2012, 11:11:33 AM
Red Alert nukes...
I remember a kennel surviving a nuke..
Which incapacitated the remaining enemies through sheer cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 12, 2012, 11:39:26 AM
And again Fox takes all the words out of my mouth.
I'm simply that awesome.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 12, 2012, 11:42:59 AM
Bullets could miss, fly over or past their targets, hit things they weren't supposed to (including allies), etc.  This was a huge innovation into the previously 2D genre. 
I completely forgot to mention the physics system. THAT is a selling point right there. It's what makes Supreme Commander so fantastic as well. I mean, you can literally hit a bomber en route to the enemy with a nuke, because it's physically THERE. Same thing, and this has actually happened in some of my games: I have artillery shelling the enemy frontlines, keeping his engineers busy and forcing him to protect his shielded front, and he attacks me with a swarm of airplanes. Some of them actually get shot down as they travel through the artillery barrage. Do that in Starcraft, I dare you.

Two other things I remember very fondly: RADAR functionality. There's SOMETHING out there, and you can shell it. But you'd have to scout it to see what it was. Want to sneak up on your enemy? Use stealth troops OR hit his power grid to offline his RADAR. Brilliant!

Also, second thing. One word: Annihilator. DAMN dat lazor!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zebramatt on September 12, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
I was already excited to play this game.

Now I'm wetting my pants over it! (Sure, why not?)

I might have to go get Spring RTS...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 12, 2012, 12:24:19 PM
Sorry about the profanity.

I was thinking about some more things TA did right while in class:

Build queueing - In every RTS before TA (that I know of), each unit had to be clicked once it was ready to build (Red Alert), or had a very small queue (Starcraft); in Total Annihilation the queue was limitless.  You could queue up 100 tanks for example, so you didn't have to keep coming back and reproducing them.  This gave you a lot more freedom to spend time having fun (in battle), instead of having to constantly perform the tedious tasks of pointless macromanagement.

Resource management
- The way Total Annihilation approached resource management was truly unique.  In games before, you had a static amount of resources which could be used to make a static amount of units.  In Total Annihilation, you could queue up limitless amounts of army and buildings, because the system was income/outcome based, meaning that you could plan to build things even before you had "money" in the bank.  Once again, this allows the player more time on the battlefield, and less time in the base.

The Commander - TA was the first RTS game to introduce "The Commander" unit, which basically acted like a hybrid of the King and Queen in Chess.  It was like the King in that if it died, you lost, but like the Queen in that it was your most powerful piece.  The commander, though fairly slow, could build faster than any other engineer in the game, making him a powerful economic tool to have in your arsenal.  He also had a fair bit of health, making him a good "tank" in an offensive push, perhaps turning the tide of battle by absorbing shots for your other units.  Most importantly however, his main weapon - The D-Gun, and also the most powerful weapon in the entire game (kills anything in 1 shot), is what truly defined him as an awesome and unique force; an army of one.

Metal Corpses and Environmental Features - TA was the first game in which your units left realistic "corpses" when they died, impeding the path of units trying to get around them, and also being a source of extra metal when reclaimed.  This added a brand new dynamic to the game that had never been done before, and was a major consideration when attacking or defending.  For example, when attacking in Total Annihilation, if the attack failed, not only did you lose all the units sent in the attack, but ALSO gave the opponent a ton of free metal in the process. ;p Things like rocks and trees (environmental features) could also be reclaimed into your resource banks, which opened up some pretty cool economic options.

In the expansions they actually added "City Maps", in which the players battled in ruined cities, where every car, light pole, and building could be converted into another part of your war machine; pretty cool.

Defensive playstyles
- Most RTS games force you into an aggressive role (think Starcraft where there are few defensive structures, and to win you HAVE to send units into your opponent's base).  However, Total Annihilation offered defensive players ("turtles", as they were called) something too.  The defensive structures in Total Annihilation were much more cost-effective and powerful than in previous RTS games, meaning you could make a fairly impenetrable wall of structures to take on a never-ending horde of enemy units.  Corpses also helped in this regard because the more the enemy player died in an attempt to destroy you, the more the corpses of his own units became an obstacle.  Also, Total Annihilation offered you the ability to turn 1 resource into another, creating a powerful, self-sustaining base that wasn't possible in other games.

So all in all, Total Annihilation offered the RTS genre something so ahead of its time, RTS games today are STILL struggling to catch up with all the innovations and features it brought to the table.



Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: orzelek on September 12, 2012, 01:34:28 PM
I got finally convinced.. this maybe something worth creation of one more payment account :D
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: icepick37 on September 12, 2012, 01:55:32 PM
I backed!  :D  Sniped a $15 slot, haha. Apparently there's people jumping ship, though.  :/

Hopefully we make galactic war.  :(
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 12, 2012, 01:57:56 PM
I backed!  :D  Sniped a $15 slot, haha. Apparently there's people jumping ship, though.  :/
They probably just upped their pledge and picked a non-limited reward.  That's what happened when I went up from $15 a while ago.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: icepick37 on September 12, 2012, 01:59:30 PM
Yeah looks like it. I am an idiot.  :p
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 12, 2012, 03:17:22 PM
So all in all, Total Annihilation offered the RTS genre something so ahead of its time, RTS games today are STILL struggling to catch up with all the innovations and features it brought to the table.
This. I've yet to find any RTS (aside from SupCom and Forged Alliance) that gets anywhere close as awesome. After you've played TA/SupCom, and other RTS just feels small, bland and uninteresting.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 12, 2012, 03:34:12 PM
As long as we hit Galactic Wars, I'm happy; but getting the Full Orchestra and the Documentary would be fantastic!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 12, 2012, 03:48:29 PM
As long as we hit Galactic Wars, I'm happy; but getting the Full Orchestra and the Documentary would be fantastic!
Yea, worst case, I've got the TA soundtrack with my GoG copy, can just use that :)

But seeing if they can get Jeremy Soule again, or surpass him, would be worthwhile.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on September 12, 2012, 05:35:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw

^I plan to be playing that as the project finishes
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Bossman on September 13, 2012, 01:25:29 AM
Huzzah! Galaxies will be annihilated! And there's 37 hours to go.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 13, 2012, 09:57:48 AM
We appear to have funded a machine whereby one of Uber's designers can consume galaxies.

... is this a good thing? ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 13, 2012, 10:00:33 AM
We appear to have funded a machine whereby one of Uber's designers can consume galaxies.

... is this a good thing? ;)

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/264/241/9e9.gif)

[If they break the 1.9 mil mark before they still have a day left, I'll double my investment]

Anyone know the extra game keys work? Do I get 2 keys if I currently have 40$ invested, or do I need to select the 40$ tier and then add 20$ manually?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 13, 2012, 10:18:49 AM
Anyone know the extra game keys work? Do I get 2 keys if I currently have 40$ invested, or do I need to select the 40$ tier and then add 20$ manually?
If you want 2 normal (non-beta, non-alpha) keys you'd need to pledge $40+ and select the $20 reward tier; they'll ask what addons you want after the thing is over and the credit cards, etc actually charged,

If you want 1 beta key and 1 normal key you'd need to pledge $60+ and select the $40 reward tier (for the beta key) and addon a normal key in the survey they send later.

They have a fairly thorough explanation of the addons thing on there somewhere, I can point it out if you like.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on September 13, 2012, 10:18:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw
Oh nooo that reminds me of all the horrible music lessons in school (~6 years ago)..
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 13, 2012, 10:25:34 AM
Galactic Wars hit, and already 1/4th of the way to the Orchestra Goal.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 13, 2012, 05:09:47 PM
This should serve as an example to game developers of how to try to present ideas for kickstarter.


[Very imcomplete, but things I noted that helped lead to success]
*Clearly explain your idea and concept, demonstrate a clear plan for success and the goals of the game
*Make the game idea unique yet familiar
*Explain why the game makers are suited to their goal
*Make the initial seed money for success less then you need to break even if the made game is bare bones, with the expectation you will break it somewhat quickly [This is tricky]
*Add very numerous stretch goals that you hoped to do eventually anyway. Thus promote to add more money, making it so that you make the money you need anyway, but now you are dangling tasty treats encouraging upgrades from the current pool of players.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Volatar on September 13, 2012, 05:45:15 PM
This should serve as an example to game developers of how to try to present ideas for kickstarter.


[Very imcomplete, but things I noted that helped lead to success]
*Clearly explain your idea and concept, demonstrate a clear plan for success and the goals of the game
*Make the game idea unique yet familiar
*Explain why the game makers are suited to their goal
*Make the initial seed money for success less then you need to break even if the made game is bare bones, with the expectation you will break it somewhat quickly [This is tricky]
*Add very numerous stretch goals that you hoped to do eventually anyway. Thus promote to add more money, making it so that you make the money you need anyway, but now you are dangling tasty treats encouraging upgrades from the current pool of players.

That definitely explains the 200k for planet types. :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 13, 2012, 05:48:05 PM
This should serve as an example to game developers of how to try to present ideas for kickstarter.


[Very imcomplete, but things I noted that helped lead to success]
*Clearly explain your idea and concept, demonstrate a clear plan for success and the goals of the game
*Make the game idea unique yet familiar
*Explain why the game makers are suited to their goal
*Make the initial seed money for success less then you need to break even if the made game is bare bones, with the expectation you will break it somewhat quickly [This is tricky]
*Add very numerous stretch goals that you hoped to do eventually anyway. Thus promote to add more money, making it so that you make the money you need anyway, but now you are dangling tasty treats encouraging upgrades from the current pool of players.

Yeah, makes me wonder if Defense Grid 2 had done that, would it have been a better outcome for them.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 13, 2012, 06:33:10 PM
This should serve as an example to game developers of how to try to present ideas for kickstarter.


[Very imcomplete, but things I noted that helped lead to success]
*Clearly explain your idea and concept, demonstrate a clear plan for success and the goals of the game
*Make the game idea unique yet familiar
*Explain why the game makers are suited to their goal
*Make the initial seed money for success less then you need to break even if the made game is bare bones, with the expectation you will break it somewhat quickly [This is tricky]
*Add very numerous stretch goals that you hoped to do eventually anyway. Thus promote to add more money, making it so that you make the money you need anyway, but now you are dangling tasty treats encouraging upgrades from the current pool of players.

Yeah, makes me wonder if Defense Grid 2 had done that, would it have been a better outcome for them.

I've had an internal monologue of how DG2 was such a failure, yet PA was a success, and I've found a thread of similarity.

The first goal, the funding, needs to be the most universally appealing goal.

DG2 had what in some ways seemed to be a good concept: esclading rewards leading to a sequel.

There is a problem though. Almost everyone wanted the sequel, not everyone wanted the extras. On paper that is ok in some ways, but not with a kickstarter.

Case in point, me (not scientific of course)

1) Do I want to pay 15$ for a sequel.
>Yes!
2) Do I want to pay 15$ to make DG1 playable on other non pc platforms?
>No!
3) Do I want to pay 15$ to make DG1 get a level editor?
>Maybe
4) Do I want to pay 15$ to make DG1 get 8 new level!
>Hell no!

>Shall I fund the game before it almost hits the 500k mark? NO!

And this is the problem. Many may have wanted to fund the end goal, but not the goals in-between, leading to little funding to begin with which leads to little funding at all.

It's very psychological, these kickstarters. Will respond more with the other post later.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 13, 2012, 06:39:32 PM
>Shall I fund the game before it almost hits the 500k mark? NO!
Ah, yes, that would be a problem with one like that.  Because past the initial funding line there's no more "if they don't hit the goal, you don't lose the money"; they're gonna get the money either way, but you only get the sequel if they hit 500k.

Yea, definitely make the initial funding goal the one everyone at-all-interested in your project will want, to avoid that problem.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 13, 2012, 06:44:42 PM
This should serve as an example to game developers of how to try to present ideas for kickstarter.


[Very imcomplete, but things I noted that helped lead to success]
*Clearly explain your idea and concept, demonstrate a clear plan for success and the goals of the game
*Make the game idea unique yet familiar
*Explain why the game makers are suited to their goal
*Make the initial seed money for success less then you need to break even if the made game is bare bones, with the expectation you will break it somewhat quickly [This is tricky]
*Add very numerous stretch goals that you hoped to do eventually anyway. Thus promote to add more money, making it so that you make the money you need anyway, but now you are dangling tasty treats encouraging upgrades from the current pool of players.

That definitely explains the 200k for planet types. :P

Kickstarters follow stock somewhat in that both are very psychological.

<A new kickstarter is made, a potential investor comes along>

Even knowing that if the kickstarter funding isn't met, would I want to spend the effort making a pledge for a game I know won't make it's goal? No.

However, there is a flip side to it. I come back a week later, and the game is 2/3 toward its goal already! Now I want to fund it, for I know the game will succeed!

<Later customer comes along.>

Wow! I like this game, and it is already funded! Now my money is just a preorder, and with my preorder I'll probably get a discount over buying it retail! I'll fund it now!

<The two above now think this with stretch goals as the game is now funded fully, and now tasty treats from the dev are now dangled>

Well, I know I'll get my game. But now more snazzy features are coming. Well, I'll go ahead and pay almost full retail...but I know I'll get the game I want...but now I'm getting extra stuff and getting cool things like beta access and extra features!

<Late in the kickstarter process for people who have already pledged>

Wow, this game is doing great! I feel so proud supporting this game! Wait, you've found something to make this game go from GREAT to EPIC?!? WOW! I want to support this! I might regret spending this much later, but I don't care, I'm SO PSYCHED!

...

----


That was a very scattered brained example, but I'll try to present my ADD more objectively:

-People would rather support things they know will succeed over things they think might fail
-People like to feel with effort, no matter how small (work of doing a pledge), they know they will get what they want, and they like to know their funding matters
-People like to feel proud over supporting something they know is great
-People like to feel they are making a difference over development
-People like to feel that at the worst they either lose nothing or get what they paid for
-People like excitement of escalating rewards

Arcen does a few of these things themselves (feeling pride over supporting something, players feeling like they make a difference)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Volatar on September 13, 2012, 06:48:09 PM
So, the question is: was the real goal 1.5 or 1.8? Was the Galactic War part of their original plan or an actual stretch goal?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 13, 2012, 06:51:57 PM
>Shall I fund the game before it almost hits the 500k mark? NO!
Ah, yes, that would be a problem with one like that.  Because past the initial funding line there's no more "if they don't hit the goal, you don't lose the money"; they're gonna get the money either way, but you only get the sequel if they hit 500k.

Yea, definitely make the initial funding goal the one everyone at-all-interested in your project will want, to avoid that problem.

Exactly, except in the case of DG2 that 500k was for a maybe. Yet the money was committed at 250k. The "YES!" reaction didn't come till 1 million dollars.

Following the PA model, they should have halved the needed money for the sequel, then make goals for extras like 600K being the 8 extra levels, 800k for cross platform support, 1 million dollars for the level editor...for reasons I cited above.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 13, 2012, 06:59:32 PM
So, the question is: was the real goal 1.5 or 1.8? Was the Galactic War part of their original plan or an actual stretch goal?

That is a great question. They made it a hard rule that if they didn't make 900k, the game wouldn't be made, yet after that they add that paypal donations could be made for stretch goals, and since they hid the strentch goals you don't know.

This actually drew up an internal monologue of mine that was unique: I had my optimism and my cynicism unite in thinking the full orchestral score is probably in the bag already...

The cynicism side of me though that over the weekend, that when the company was quiet when galactic conquest was pretty much in the bag, the company talked with the orchestra and worked out a deal...so that when they announced "At 2 million dollars, we will do the orchestra" that I thought:
"Well, they worked out a schedule to book the orchestra already, and they think they'll make enough to cover the extra expense anyway, they just want to milk more money"

Yet my optimism side agreed for a different reason:
"They have already made almost 2 million dollars if you count kickstarter and the paypal amounts, so they went ahead and booked it, so we'll get it regardless!!!"


And a marketing department of anything is very good in my books if both my optimism and my cynicism agree for the same outcome.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 13, 2012, 11:53:23 PM
I hate to say I told you so, so I wont.

But in all fairness:

I TOLD YOU ALL.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Bossman on September 13, 2012, 11:54:29 PM
Only $10k until the orchestral score, and they've added the ability to get the game on a USB stick for an extra 20 dollars. Said stick will probably be shaped like a commander. I think I know which was the cause and the effect.

Oh, and a shirt with a galaxy-eating head on it was added too. But there's absolutely no way anyone would want that. Totally absurd.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 14, 2012, 10:07:26 AM
What a win.

Faith in humanity:  Restored.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Volatar on September 14, 2012, 10:45:01 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/gPOM4.gif)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on September 14, 2012, 03:39:35 PM
Funded at 100k > the documentary!
(http://i.imgur.com/Nrr8I.gif)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 14, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
They're done; 2.33M counting the paypal donations.  Pretty good :)

I've gotten an email about the funding happening (the "Thanks to you, Planetary Annihilation - A Next Generation RTS by Uber Entertainment Inc has been successfully funded!" email from [email protected]), but I haven't seen notice of my card actually being charged yet (the "Your Payment to (whatever) has succeeded" email from [email protected]), have any of you seen that?

Just hoping some part of the payment processing pipeline didn't get a wrench in it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: orzelek on September 14, 2012, 04:01:18 PM
I'm not exactly sure about that amazon payments.
They don't allow you to enter the CVV code and it says on web page that if your bank doesn't accept transaction without it it won't work. I have no idea if it will work with my card.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 14, 2012, 04:14:12 PM
I'm not exactly sure about that amazon payments.
They don't allow you to enter the CVV code and it says on web page that if your bank doesn't accept transaction without it it won't work. I have no idea if it will work with my card.
I've done a couple other kickstarters and it's worked fine.  Looking back at one of the other ones there was about a 30 minute delay between the emails so it's probably just the same thing.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 14, 2012, 05:38:20 PM
Will PA have a procedural campaign/map generator, or are these campaigns going to be a series of handmade, closed-circuit maps? The idea of a war spiraling out of control from planet to planet, eventually engulfing the galaxy is a compelling scenario, even though it is tempered by emotionless robots doing the fighting.

But having an entire unique campaign generated from the word go with interconnections of supply running from smoldering former battlefields? You've definitely got my attention at that point.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 14, 2012, 05:55:45 PM
Will PA have a procedural campaign/map generator, or are these campaigns going to be a series of handmade, closed-circuit maps?

From the kickstarter page ( http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts ) :
Quote
Procedural Planet Creator
Create custom or randomized maps with our procedural planet creator. Like what you see? Save them and share them with the Planetary Annihilation community.

And from an post on their kickstarter page describing the Galactic War mode ( http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/303555 ) :
Quote
The Galactic War is a replayable single and multiplayer metagame. Play locally by yourself or co-op with your friends against our world class Skirmish AI’s. Or play on the live multiplayer servers and try to conquer the galaxy!

  Features include:

    Procedurally generated galaxy map, play a different galaxy every time!
    Single player and co-op for local play
    Online multiplayer mega-battles. Join a faction and plunder the universe!
    Clan wars servers for fighting the galactic war between clans
    Dynamic story system that logs your fight and generates exciting counter attacks and special missions that up the challenge level
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 14, 2012, 06:00:22 PM
they've clearly stated that the Galactic War is completely procedural
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 14, 2012, 11:30:55 PM
Sorry, Kickstarter's blocked at my jibby jobby and I just had to know.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 14, 2012, 11:33:37 PM
Sorry, Kickstarter's blocked at my jibby jobby and I just had to know.
Ah, makes sense :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on October 11, 2012, 03:35:25 PM
Updaaaaate! (http://www.twitch.tv/uberchannel/b/334446805)

(From the kickstarter update. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/326498?ref=email&show_token=b993db5254511831))
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on October 12, 2012, 02:32:53 AM
So does anyone know when exactly they will send our the surveys for kickstarter supporters?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 12, 2012, 09:33:20 AM
The surveys won't do all of what they want so they've been putting together a website instead.  I think it's taken like 3x as long as they thought it would, already.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on October 12, 2012, 10:29:33 AM
ah well... figured that would happen with the huge amount of backers ,)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on October 30, 2012, 04:07:41 PM
Behold, the metal planet!
(http://planetaryannihilation.com/assets/wallpaper/pa_metal_planet_1024x768.jpg)
Full list of resolutions in here: http://planetaryannihilation.com/assets/wallpaper/PA_WALLPAPERS.zip
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 30, 2012, 05:04:41 PM
(http://planetaryannihilation.com/assets/wallpaper/pa_metal_planet_1024x768.jpg)
We need to make that thing go boom, mm'kay?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 22, 2012, 01:17:41 PM
Did anyone else get the mail from the "Uber Store" with an option to preorder the game? I was under the impression that by backing, you'd get teh game, and now they want me to preorder for $40-90?

The reason I'm asking is because the page (https://store.uberent.com/Store/PreOrder?titleId=4) states:
Quote
*FAQ: Do early backers from Kickstarter and PayPal get the Theta commander?
You bet! You'll automatically get the Theta Commander if you pledged $20 (or $15 early bird) or more via Kickstarter or PayPal.

Now I'm confused. So if I pledged $20, the Kickstarter page says I get the game. Yet now I have to preorder one of the versions to get the game. Whatta?

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 22, 2012, 01:22:58 PM
I think it's a case of imprecise mailing.  Everyone on their list probably got the preorder email, not just the backers.  It doesn't really apply to the backers unless you want more or different copies, etc.

At least, that's my guess.

If, somehow, the game comes released and I don't get a copy for my pledge... well, I'll probably just vicariously and metaphorically slaughter them through a very specific scenario and AI Plot combination.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on November 22, 2012, 02:45:50 PM
I think it's a case of imprecise mailing.  Everyone on their list probably got the preorder email, not just the backers.  It doesn't really apply to the backers unless you want more or different copies, etc.

At least, that's my guess.

If, somehow, the game comes released and I don't get a copy for my pledge... well, I'll probably just vicariously and metaphorically slaughter them through a very specific scenario and AI Plot combination.
Set them to difficulty 1 and nuke every one of their planets in a stroke of irony.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: icepick37 on November 26, 2012, 02:13:29 PM
Yeah, that was just a general email methinks.

Was nice to see that all the backers get that pre-order commander. So that makes it somewhat relevant in a way.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: RCIX on April 19, 2013, 06:41:08 PM
*Launches Zenith Necrobomb MkIV*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugz7I8Z1bkI
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Vyndicu on April 20, 2013, 12:09:03 PM
Sorry I know I am late to the "party". There is a way to confirm you do indeed have an incoming package from the kickstarter. I am assuming you guy already did linked your kickstarter account with an uber account.

Go to uber store: https://store.uberent.com/Store/PreOrder?titleId=4 (https://store.uberent.com/Store/PreOrder?titleId=4)

Ignore all of the pre-order on that page. Log in and click on "my account" on the very top right. Here you will see a summary of your kickstarter items. If you did two items (base + addon) or something then you will have to click on item within the list to expand to see full details.

Hope that clear thing up a lot for those who got "e-mail" to pre-order but did backed on kickstarter like me.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 06, 2013, 01:20:09 PM
Looks like the PA alpha started today.  Don't worry Wingflier, I won't mind if you stop testing VotM and disappear for a while ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on June 06, 2013, 02:05:27 PM
Looks like the PA alpha started today.  Don't worry Wingflier, I won't mind if you stop testing VotM and disappear for a while ;)
I generally don't participate in Alphas, because I am too oft extremely disappointed, especially such as in this case when my expectations are extremely high.

I'll probably wait til beta to jump in.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 06, 2013, 02:07:45 PM
Yea, in this one I got about as far as the fifth unique screen where it asked me to enter my Uber account credentials and figured I'd used all the time I had for it today :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 13, 2013, 01:44:39 PM
Hey Arcen, looks like you're undercharging for your alphas.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 13, 2013, 01:46:59 PM
Hey Arcen, looks like you're undercharging for your alphas.
Guess so ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 13, 2013, 03:04:33 PM
Do not understand the logic of a $90 alpha. Pushing this game way back on my priority queue now. Maybe I'll tackle it after its released. And it's on a deep sale. Can't say I support this business model.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 13, 2013, 03:05:50 PM
Do not understand the logic of a $90 alpha.
Probably related to how much one had to pledge in the kickstarter to get an alpha key.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 13, 2013, 03:09:44 PM
Do not understand the logic of a $90 alpha.
Probably related to how much one had to pledge in the kickstarter to get an alpha key.

Geez, that sounds like the most expensive alpha pay in I've ever heard of on KS.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 13, 2013, 03:20:32 PM
They had three tiers.

Alpha - Highest backing
Beta - Mid backing
Retail - Any backing
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 13, 2013, 03:22:27 PM
Yea, the retail was only like $20, and I think it was $15 if you got in the early-bird (which had like 5000 slots).

It wasn't a scalping just to get in.  Alpha price is high, but honestly they may not _want_ a LOT of testers right now.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 13, 2013, 03:25:53 PM
1. They probably don't want a lot of testers.
2. If it's a pre-release version you can get for like just 20-30$, then imagine the common layman getting ahold of it for an almost-normal retail price and seeing that the game hardly has any real features and is loaded with bugs. When you ask for a lot of money, people are far more likely to really look at what they're getting into.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Lancefighter on June 13, 2013, 03:40:57 PM
I feel like the only reason this alpha exists at all is because they want the whole word of mouth thing going on now instead of later. The amount of free advertising they get by offering an alpha, even at this high of a price, is going to be huge. Based on what I've read from their forum ,they dont really want people having the alpha at all. (minor speculation) They are only doing this because someone thought it a great idea to give people alpha access if they spent 90 dollars on a game that didn't exist.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Billick on June 13, 2013, 04:24:53 PM
The complaining on the Steam forum is going to be epic.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 13, 2013, 04:26:01 PM
The complaining on the Steam forum is going to be epic.
I'm trying to figure out a suitable combination of the word "Complaint" and the word "Ragnarok".
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 13, 2013, 05:13:06 PM
The complaining on the Steam forum is going to be epic.

Going to be? The complaints started filling pages within a half hour of it going up.  :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 13, 2013, 05:38:51 PM
Yeah, I'm not going to keep reading the steam forums.
Okay, yeah, 90$ is a terribly high price, but I outlined a few reasons for it earlier and the devs brought up another one. This is the kickstarter price. If they didn't have it priced at that level, then everybody who actually kickstarted the game would feel pretty ripped off. Then, people don't actually seem to understand how much the price is dropping from that point... and they're judging the quality of the game based on alpha price alone. I'm not normally like this, normally I actually direct all the hate towards exploitative business models, but the guys on the steam forums are completely ignorant on the subject and are judging a game entirely based on factors outside of the game. The whole situation IS stupid but it isn't, say, SimCity or Xbox One stupid which is the way the community is treating it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on June 13, 2013, 05:41:39 PM
There is one good thing I've gotten from the steam forums, and that was in a PM. (It was how to activate all unlockables in Solar 2,since I'd gotten stuck and thought I'd ask the dev for some help)

The rest of the place is rubbish.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 13, 2013, 07:17:10 PM
I actually just checked out the Xotic Steam Forums and the feedback there is pretty vile as well. There are people who just talk about how crap the game is because it's easy to beat, and they don't actually look at the game long enough to realize that the hard part is doing well and getting high scores.
I feel like if the alpha weren't 90$, people would be buying into it and complaining that the graphics are crap and the gameplay is broken and how unbelievable it is for developers to sell such a broken product.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 13, 2013, 07:21:35 PM
I've seen some perfectly reasonable conversations over there.  But yea, I wouldn't swim in that pool.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 13, 2013, 08:31:04 PM
Yeah I did look back and a couple of people are bringing up relevant points, but that's so easily drowned out by the campaigns of "EVERYBODY RATE THIS 0 ON METACRITIC FOR HAVING A HIGH PRICE THIS GAME IS TERRIBLE AND I DIDN'T BUY IT"
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Lancefighter on June 13, 2013, 11:25:26 PM
Youknow what a much better community is? A nice, small irc channel. This is totally not me still trying to advocate #aiwar on appliedirc. (although it has seen a lot of activity and game-looking  requests of late!)

Really though, if you can find a good irc community, things are generally pretty nice.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on June 14, 2013, 12:16:44 AM
if you can find a good irc community, things are generally pretty nice.

Is a good irc community nice, or a nice community good irc?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Lancefighter on June 14, 2013, 12:57:29 AM
if you can find a good irc community, things are generally pretty nice.

Is a good irc community nice, or a nice community good irc?
the first. The second typically doesnt happen; If there is a good community somewhere, they tend to stay where they are instead of making one on irc, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Echo35 on June 14, 2013, 01:17:45 AM
"What the developers say:
“Please be aware that not all of the features of the game are available. We are currently playing with a subset as the game isn't completed. By getting early access you are helping us to shape and form the game. Because we take feedback seriously we think that prioritizing access to the game early on is important. So we've put an emphasis on getting the game in front of you as early as possible.

Our anticipated schedule is as follows:

Alpha Early Access Begins: June 16th, 2013 - Alpha access may be restricted to online connection required

Beta Early Access Begins: September 6th, 2013 - Beta access may be restricted to online connection required

Retail Access Begins: December 15th, 2013

Please Note: These dates are subject to change. We will do everything we can to meet them, but it is possible that these dates may change as we continue the development process.”"

It's not like it's in a giant blue box at the top of the page or anything. Reading is hard.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 14, 2013, 01:29:52 AM
Maybe they could include the different pricetags there? I've read people who are like "No, the game's going to be 80$ when it's released and Riot's greedier than EA."
Then again, there are people on the board who just blatantly ignore the sticky and don't understand why it can't be any lower of a price. Either they're blind or stupid. It's so bad that they had to pin a dedicated game discussion thread.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 14, 2013, 05:51:27 AM
The amount of stupidity on display from gamers is baffling. It was the same when Xenonauts released their early access. "OMG XCOM ripoff, and it's buggy as hell!" ... wow...really? What part of "reimagination" and "early access" did you miss? It appears to be the same here.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 14, 2013, 07:20:35 AM
I understand why the price is what it is, but I think it was a marketing failure to do early release on Steam in that manner. Most people are not going to know about the Kickstarter nuances, they are just going to see a $90 game that the developers admit is incomplete.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on June 14, 2013, 08:24:19 AM
Steam Early Access: good dev idea, terrible PR idea.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 14, 2013, 08:39:20 AM
I understand why the price is what it is, but I think it was a marketing failure to do early release on Steam in that manner. Most people are not going to know about the Kickstarter nuances, they are just going to see a $90 game that the developers admit is incomplete.

Yeah, this is my feeling too. I don't think they should have released the game on Early Access if they didn't want a bunch of new people to play the game. Early Access is about getting your Alpha/Beta game noticed and being playtested by a bunch of gamers while you get it finish it to completion. Since this is clearly what they didn't want, they shouldn't have put it on Steam until they were ready for new gamers. Would have saved them a lot of PR trouble. Now, they have a lot of ill conceptions about the game due to it and that's pretty damaging in the long run. I'm really surprised no one over there thought about this but then again...maybe I shouldn't be.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Histidine on June 14, 2013, 09:26:24 AM
There's also the fact that no-one else ever charges more for the alpha than the finished software.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 14, 2013, 10:36:51 AM
I do think they shouldn't have put it in playable form on steam if they didn't want more players.  Just do a pre-order.

But it'd be worse to back it out now, most likely.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on June 15, 2013, 10:48:24 AM
Just saw the EA advertisement on Steam.

I guess I can understand people's frustration, but seriously, it is *NOT* that big of a deal. Honestly, do gamers these days have nothing better to do than complain about overpriced alphas?

It was the same thing with DotA 2, which is technically still in beta, and which anybody could get into if they just asked around a bit (I have 6 extra keys for example); but which you can pay like $40 to get access to, along with some other cool features, and people FREAK OUT.

The stupidity of gamers these days is legendary.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on June 15, 2013, 01:46:27 PM
I do think they shouldn't have put it in playable form on steam if they didn't want more players.  Just do a pre-order.

But it'd be worse to back it out now, most likely.

Definitely worse if they back down now. It's summer vacation which is generally the worst time for multiplayer gaming and events like this.

I will say this, it does look like a cash grab. In the case of kickstarter, it's clearly trying to encourage people to fund a grand venture for developers that do not have publishers. For a game that is already funded, to go on steam and try to lure people in for $90 seems off. They're not trying to raise money anymore, so now it's just who is willing to put out that kind of cash for a half-baked title. It's also a little condescending to the audience. Maybe younger gamers are emotionally infantile and unable to see the big picture, but it's also possible that they just aren't able to verbalize what's wrong when the scenario in front of them is bent.

They clearly spent their goodwill, and now what's going to be talked about on every review is their greed with this little incident.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 15, 2013, 01:54:31 PM
Yea, it does seem off.  I don't think it was intended as a cash grab (even if that were their goal, I think a Machiavellian analysis would predict and steer clear of the sort of PR disaster this is) but I see how it can look that way.

I think it was kind of a plinko-board-of-doom situation:
1) Community members really want to see this on steam (this is true, at least iirc, that they had a lot of people asking them to get it on steam quickly)
2) But we can't massively undercut the price the kickstarter backers paid for alpha, and we don't actually want people jumping in without realizing this is alpha, so we have to price it at $90.
3) And we can't back it out now because that's going to annoy Valve and in general be even more of a disaster.

2 & 3 I would agree with.  They couldn't "fix it" at those points.  They needed to back up to 1 before the steam availability and said "sorry guys, we know you want it on steam, but this just ain't gonna work".

But 20/20 hindsight and all that.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LayZboy on June 16, 2013, 04:11:06 PM
I was gonna buy the alpha thingy but then I read that they don't even have map control in it yet.
So I said screw that.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: mrhanman on June 16, 2013, 04:36:27 PM
I'm just tired of everyone crying "corporate greed" about this.  i'm sure it seemed perfectly fair to them to set the early access price equal to the kickstarter tier that gave the same.  they could have made it more clear on the steam page that the final release will be much cheaper, though.

ultimately, i wouldn't care if they made it $10,000 dollars for early access.  even that wouldn't be greedy - it'd just be stupid.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 16, 2013, 04:51:39 PM
I doubt making it clearer really would have helped though. I mean, it's made perfectly clear why the price is so high for now in the sticky on the steam forums. People just don't seem to actually understand, or they didn't read the sticky to begin with.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on June 16, 2013, 05:31:26 PM
The effectiveness is very much related to both venue and previous history. PI has no previous good will, and the steam forums is like most a very acidic pool. So I'm neither surprised to PI for any fallout
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on June 16, 2013, 05:33:20 PM
addendium: if PI on the steam page offered the beta and retail versions at their ki kstarter prices i wonder if it would be better.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 16, 2013, 08:13:33 PM
addendium: if PI on the steam page offered the beta and retail versions at their ki kstarter prices i wonder if it would be better.
FWIW, they asked for that for the initial setup and Valve said no.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on June 16, 2013, 09:07:39 PM
addendium: if PI on the steam page offered the beta and retail versions at their ki kstarter prices i wonder if it would be better.
FWIW, they asked for that for the initial setup and Valve said no.

In that case, it was very foolish to do this. Considering how for very many this is their first experience.with the game, they have no context.for.the price. So it seems a cash grap. Its not the consumers fault they decided on a retail site among the most expensive alphas ever.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 16, 2013, 09:11:48 PM
While that isn't the consumer's fault, I really complain more about the people who don't even bother to inform themselves on the subject.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on June 16, 2013, 09:52:45 PM
While that isn't the consumer's fault, I really complain more about the people who don't even bother to inform themselves on the subject.

What is there to inform? They offer the most expensive alpha ever. Period. And they provide no avenue to obtain the game either in retail or beta. Why they do it may provide context, but doesn't change that fact.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 16, 2013, 10:20:21 PM
Yeah, okay, the alpha's really bad, but the people who assume things like, say, the developers are greedy, or that they COULD have priced it lower, and stuff like that. Those are the uninformed ignorant people that are making the community really look bad. I absolutely understand complaints and problems with the alpha's price, but the uninformed people who get really mad about it are the ones that I do not agree with.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on June 16, 2013, 10:40:01 PM
Yeah, okay, the alpha's really bad, but the people who assume things like, say, the developers are greedy, or that they COULD have priced it lower, and stuff like that. Those are the uninformed ignorant people that are making the community really look bad. I absolutely understand complaints and problems with the alpha's price, but the uninformed people who get really mad about it are the ones that I do not agree with.

It IS greedy, though, at its core.

Either they charge the high price so they don't backstab the kickstarters because they need the alpha members, or they charge the high price so they don't backstab the kickstarters because they want money.


I've heard they don't need any more alpha players. So why offer the alpha?

I can't think of a logical reason why to offer the alpha aside from profit.

You can say you don't have to buy the alpha...but at that point, you are on the same level of saying the company is greedy. I'm not disuputing their right to this model. However, I am also saying that if that wrecks your community for a little while, well, that is your PR disaster of using the pricing of one business model into another one.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 16, 2013, 10:57:26 PM
I can't think of a logical reason why to offer the alpha.
A bunch of people asked them to.

I don't think it was a sufficient reason, but oh well.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on June 17, 2013, 10:01:38 AM
I don't think it's as big of a PR disaster as you guys are making it out to be. If people continue to buy from EA, Blizzard, and Riot, which are notoriously greedy companies, then they'll forgive the PA team if the game is good. If the game sucks well, they'll never live this down, but that is the consequence of such a risky market strategy.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 17, 2013, 10:03:40 AM
Oh yea, it's not gonna sink them, it's just definitely not the best foot forward right now.  If the game is of the legendary quality we're hoping for (and looks plausible, given the heritage, the intentions, and the talent on board) then this will probably just be remembered as one more bowel-related climatological event.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on June 17, 2013, 11:18:15 AM
Metacritic removed the PA page, good for them.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 17, 2013, 11:22:54 AM
Metacritic removed the PA page, good for them.
Ah, that's good.  It was kind of silly to have one when most of the feedback was not really about the game itself.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 17, 2013, 12:22:59 PM
TB talks on the subject on today's Content Patch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqUuCXcFr0s)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 17, 2013, 01:06:05 PM
TB talks on the subject on today's Content Patch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqUuCXcFr0s)

Can you give me the crib notes version? I hate videos.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on June 17, 2013, 01:08:41 PM
TB talks on the subject on today's Content Patch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqUuCXcFr0s)

Can you give me the crib notes version? I hate videos.
Let me give you the crib notes version of TB's opinion on any controversial issue:

"Well, I can see it from both sides. The developer has some good points and the consumer has some good points. Let's hope that...Oh, hold on, I've gotta kill this guy (he always does these talks while in the middle of playing something)...anyway, we'll see how it turns out."

So basically, he said nothing.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 17, 2013, 01:13:24 PM
Well, if he actually said that it would be saying something: that he doesn't agree with the "Uber is a bunch of greedy idiots" crowd or the "Uber's actions are perfect and spotless in this instance" position.

But more it would be saying that he doesn't want to take an offensive position.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 17, 2013, 01:17:08 PM
TB talks on the subject on today's Content Patch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqUuCXcFr0s)

Can you give me the crib notes version? I hate videos.
Let me give you the crib notes version of TB's opinion on any controversial issue:

"Well, I can see it from both sides. The developer has some good points and the consumer has some good points. Let's hope that...Oh, hold on, I've gotta kill this guy (he always does these talks while in the middle of playing something)...anyway, we'll see how it turns out."

So basically, he said nothing.

He actually said quite a bit on the subject. But the short version is that he doesn't agree with the assertion that the devs are being greedy and that he thinks that gamers are being entitled over the $90 issue. This is all I will say, watch the video for his full thoughts. I refuse to take someone else's thoughts out of context and this stretches my personal rules.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 17, 2013, 01:46:13 PM
Yeah he doesn't express a particularly extreme opinion either way. Talks a little about the possibility of Uber just not putting up the alpha, but he also talks about the idea that maybe they really didn't have enough money. Talks about how double fine needed their own humble bundle even after a huge kickstarter.  He did bring up one major interesting point. At the time he made this video, Planetary Annihilation was on the top sellers list, around 3rd place. It's still pretty far up there even now, competing with Skyrim Complete. So basically, people who are complaining are really just a vocal majority and the game is actually selling really well. There's another important point he brought up that I really agree with; the metacritic thing. The idea that people who haven't played the game were able to rate the game based solely on its price, despite it even being an incomplete product. The user metacritic reviews were something that 'just made him sad' and to me it's actually downright shameful. You can hate it all you want, you can not buy it all you want, but how pathetic is it to cry to the heavens that it's a bad game when you don't know anything about it other than the price? Thankfully, the page has been taken down.

Regardless he talks about it for like 9 minutes so I'm not going to try to condense all of that down. Those were the points that stood out to me that weren't really discussed much here
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on June 17, 2013, 02:29:51 PM
So basically he said: The consumers have some good points, and the developers have some good points, we'll see how it turns out (while playing a video game).

I didn't even watch the video and I knew he would do that, because his complete inability to ever take a side on something is pretty much what he's known for.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 17, 2013, 02:30:43 PM
Quick poll everyone! "Is TB one of Wingflier's favorite people?"

;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on June 17, 2013, 02:32:59 PM
Quick poll everyone! "Is TB one of Wingflier's favorite people?"

;)
I don't mind TB, I just think listening to him ramble on about any given topic is a complete waste of time. I was just giving Mick a condensed version of what he said without having to listen to it. He's fine as a commentator in my experience.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on June 17, 2013, 02:53:36 PM
He doesn't do his content patches while playing a video game. He's completely dedicated to delivering the news and his opinions on it. The only time I know of where he's actually playing games while he talks is when he's doing WTF is and similar stuff.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 17, 2013, 03:00:13 PM
So basically he said: The consumers have some good points, and the developers have some good points, we'll see how it turns out (while playing a video game).

I didn't even watch the video and I knew he would do that, because his complete inability to ever take a side on something is pretty much what he's known for.

Well to be fair, I think the issue itself isn't really something that's all black and white "pick one side and death to the other!" anyway. I think releasing a $90 alpha on Steam is kinda dumb marketing, but I also don't think it represents some kinda moral failing of the company behind the game.

Unless the video game industry lobby passes the Mandatory Video Game Purchasing Act, I find it silly to go into a rage at the price a company puts their game.

I do think, in general, that the "we must make sure the backers never have an excuse to whine" idea is a flaw in Kickstarter though. Not necessarily specific to this, but I have seem it cause questionable choices in other things as well.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on June 17, 2013, 03:17:27 PM
He doesn't do his content patches while playing a video game. He's completely dedicated to delivering the news and his opinions on it. The only time I know of where he's actually playing games while he talks is when he's doing WTF is and similar stuff.
Yeah. All the stuff in the background of CP is either his videos related to [topic], or trailers/related videos.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 17, 2013, 03:28:42 PM
Price issue aside. How is the game?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on June 17, 2013, 03:37:10 PM
As far as I can tell from videos, pretty alpha. But it does work, assuming the AI decides to actually show up on the planet.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on June 17, 2013, 10:42:49 PM
Interestingly, even with its insane price, it's still 3rd in the Steam top seller list.

This is why gamers of our generation are so dumb. They'll complain about questionable marketing strategies, meanwhile all their friends (and probably themselves) are buying them. Actions speak louder than words, folks.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Histidine on June 17, 2013, 10:52:35 PM
Is there a formal theory of economic Darwinism somewhere out there?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: LayZboy on June 18, 2013, 09:29:19 AM
Price issue aside. How is the game?

If it where human, the sperm hasn't reached the Egg yet.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 27, 2013, 02:21:45 PM
So, Cyborg, would this meet your planet cracking criteria?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KFJbtruUgc&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 27, 2013, 04:25:07 PM
So, Cyborg, would this meet your planet cracking criteria?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KFJbtruUgc&feature=youtu.be

The wood sequence, yes. The in-game sequence, sort of.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 27, 2013, 05:15:54 PM
Oh, I didn't watch the in-game part, the woodworking and, ah, woodunworking seemed far more entertaining.

Though I'm looking forward to playing the game at release.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 27, 2013, 05:31:32 PM
Oh, I didn't watch the in-game part, the woodworking and, ah, woodunworking seemed far more entertaining.

Though I'm looking forward to playing the game at release.

I'm concerned about the quality, the gameplay, and the price. So far I just see swarms of units fighting, there is no indication of things like balance or what the core skill mechanism is. Is it just building up huge swarms? I just don't understand what this game is about. Depends on the community and the game itself whether or not I jump in.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 27, 2013, 06:16:22 PM
I'm already in from the Kickstarter, so I haven't evaluated it from the perspective of purchase price.

If it lets me relive Total Annihilation, I'll be happy personally, but I don't know if it will meet the standards of others.

I'm just looking forward to building engines on moons and driving them into stuff.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: madcow on November 27, 2013, 08:32:28 PM
I'm just looking forward to building engines on moons and driving them into stuff.

That's no space station, that's a moon!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 27, 2013, 08:37:11 PM
I'm just looking forward to building engines on moons and driving them into stuff.

That's no space station, that's a moon!
And it's comin' right for us!

I'm going to need a bigger shotgun
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 27, 2013, 09:00:56 PM
I'm just looking forward to building engines on moons and driving them into stuff.

That's no space station, that's a moon!


That's the spirit.

I can't stress enough how awesome it would be to have a planetcracker in AI war.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on November 28, 2013, 01:07:41 PM
I'm just looking forward to building engines on moons and driving them into stuff.

That's no space station, that's a moon!


That's the spirit.

I can't stress enough how awesome it would be to have a planetcracker in AI war.
Isn't that basically the nuke?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 28, 2013, 10:48:53 PM
No, I have explained why before.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on November 28, 2013, 11:39:12 PM
No, I have explained why before.

I went six pages back and only found mention of nuke.  Both result in said location being useless aside from maybe a hub for other destinations.

[It really helps a thread that spans 15 months to at least mention / link previous mentions if one cannot find the time to re-explain]
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on November 28, 2013, 11:40:05 PM
No, I have explained why before.
Sorry, I may have missed that.

Though I can assume why a planetcracker would be different than a nuke. If it didn't accrue AIP, or wipe out the entire planet of enemy units, then it would have its own uses (destabilizing anything that requires supply and such). In that sense, if it requires a certain amount of time to perform, then it could basically become its own form of hacking.

I'm not sure whether I like it or not, but it's possible that it could serve a purpose within the game. As far as the "cool factor" goes though, "Meh". I could live without it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 29, 2013, 11:17:46 PM
No, I have explained why before.

I went six pages back and only found mention of nuke.  Both result in said location being useless aside from maybe a hub for other destinations.

[It really helps a thread that spans 15 months to at least mention / link previous mentions if one cannot find the time to re-explain]

I know you like to snipe everyone on this forum, but it takes about five seconds to use the search bar. Why not try the word planetcracker?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 29, 2013, 11:59:52 PM
In fairness, searches on forums (including smf forums) are notoriously low on usefulness.  Often failing to bring up results that seem like obvious matches, etc.

I just tried searching for planetcracker and didn't turn up any results that looked like explanations of why nukes don't fit.

Iirc it had more to do with not feeling visceral enough, rather than the game mechanic not being there.  One thing to "toggle planet to destroyed state", another to see some kind of laser saw a planet in half, or one planet crash into another.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on November 30, 2013, 01:26:58 AM


I know you like to snipe everyone on this forum, but it takes about five seconds to use the search bar. Why not try the word planetcracker?

As keith pointed out, your own advice isn't really helpful. I'm not asking you to typing it all out, but even two sentences to give a clue would help, or a link of any sorts of where to begin investigations. You talk about sniping, but it is quite arrogant to think your time is 5 times greater then mine considering that's how much more time i'd spend trying to search vague previous references rather then just summarizing what you mean.

Thank you, keith, for taking the 45 seconds to explain it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 30, 2013, 10:27:39 AM
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13520.msg153563.html#msg153563

It's literally the first post that comes up when you type that search term. And I echo your comments about whose time is valuable.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on November 30, 2013, 10:55:32 AM
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13520.msg153563.html#msg153563

It's literally the first post that comes up when you type that search term. And I echo your comments about whose time is valuable.

I don't follow you on the equivalant of twitter, so it helps to assume I don't follow your every post. However, I could just as easily say that nukes are

"space station that you have to build and customize... [nukes are space objects you customize by marks]
perhaps under cloak and dagger circumstances or under duress." [Would you ever not use a nuke except under duress and under claoking until it reaches its target?

You are more concerned with the how, and  not what it does.



Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 30, 2013, 11:06:16 AM
I suspect you are just trying to waste my time, given the fact there are multiple posts and an entire page about how they are different. If you can't see the difference between a space station and a missile, I don't know what to tell you. 
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on November 30, 2013, 11:07:39 AM
I suspect you are just trying to waste my time, given the fact there are multiple posts and an entire page about how they are different. If you can't see the difference between a space station and a missile, I don't know what to tell you.

Functionally they do the same thing, except one has people on it while another does not? A missile is a space station that isn't built to house personnel. Is that your point, it is so simple. The analogies are very simple "nuke vs death star". I didn't read your thread till now. It still doesn't change the fact that the idea isn't even in this thread, and the post was 5 months ago and for this thread group "off topic" I don't follow every post, because I don't have the time. You'd understand.

I could just imagine how productive a discussion would if a response to a disagreement was "I already explained it [5 months back in a different thread that I won't mention here]"
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 30, 2013, 11:09:13 AM
I wouldn't assume he's trying to waste time.  It took me several repetitions of this discussion to realize what you were talking about was the difference between a missile and a space station (and I'd actually forgotten that was the key thing for you).

It certainly would be fun to have some kind of giant unit with massive planet-sawing lasers.

Showing that in a satisfactory manner via the graphics would be trickier.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on November 30, 2013, 11:18:40 AM
I gave previous examples of space stations. What kinds of gameplay opportunities do you have with a space station that you do not have with a missile?

- Ranged strikes, perhaps from a variable amount of hops away
- economic opportunities, specifically for rebuilding after striking the core worlds (currently a pain point). Think trading, banking, and maybe someday even entirely new screens focused around space stations. It's another knob you can tune that would solve a lot of our existing endgame problems while still providing challenge and enforcing the commitment required so far to play this game.
- mobile hanger

I'm sure you can come up with your own as well. Space stations are configurable and some of the most fun you can have in other space games. X, space Rangers, and to some extent the Master of Orion games, trade wars, etc. etc. Customizing planets or space stations is fun. Yes, a giant explosion that changes the background of a planet to an exploded moon or something, lasers, that's the stuff trailer dreams are made of (and would move copies by activating the imaginations of your audience), but I'm specifically describing the differences between a missile and a space station.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on December 01, 2013, 12:10:42 PM
I see, when you say "planetcracker" you mean much more, you mean a fully functional space station. Sorry for the confusion, I'm used to calling space stations space stations.

The idea of having a game revolve around that could be interesting.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on March 01, 2014, 12:36:04 AM
40% off on steam now
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 01, 2014, 02:44:47 AM
And about time, too.

Their pricing scheme up to this point has been all sorts of stupid.  Alot of people dont have anywhere near the kind of cash that was necessary for the initial pricing, and for a mostly untested/unproven game, at that.   Talk about a risky purchase....  I could afford it easily myself, but I held off on general principle of not wanting to support that sort of idea.

The current sale price though makes alot more sense for a game that's not even near completion.

Might grab it later, it seems very much like what SupCom was, and that game was bloody excellent.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2014, 09:06:16 AM
I was in the Kickstarter but haven't played since I prefer to save my enthusiasm for a game for when it's done (or at least released).  Last night I watched a couple of ZaphodX's recent games, though, and found them entertaining:

Simple 1v1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nru83Ht5Ptk&list=TLIJ4FFg5VGEaFvW6EblhgEkKx4CosGbyT

More chaotic 5v5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84p0WbnSwic&list=TL4ahtare3AY8MhvPmWxp3ACzcwPDpzHZR

I'm sure there are better videos out there, but in case anyone was curious.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on March 01, 2014, 09:18:11 AM
I was in the KS  as well, but haven't tried it yet because my laptop can't handle it. But my desktop might be able to! (big might.)
Also they've gone into Gamma, a phrase I haven't heard since I played MechQuest.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on March 01, 2014, 11:18:36 AM
It's nice to see it no longer costs a bazillion dollars.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2014, 11:24:39 AM
I suspect the pricing stuff worked out well for them in the end, as I doubt the money raised by the kickstarter could have funded a team that large for this long even at relatively low (say, $50k/year) salaries.

Though I guess it could be just them eating the cost, as their own side of the investment.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 01, 2014, 08:19:37 PM
It's nice to see it no longer costs a bazillion dollars.

The current price though exists only briefly.

On the 6th it goes back up from 30 to 50.

Because, you know, that price makes total sense for a game not even close to finished. 
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: orzelek on March 02, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Their pricing scheme was explained also bazillion times.
Prices on Steam matched kickstarter fee for access to that stage.

As for the game.. I'm disappointed - no campaign or something like that. I think it was in kickstarter but might be wrong on that point didn't check again.

I have it now and it's not my kind of fun I think (after leisure playing for about 1h I sent some sats to scout.. AI had hundreds of units.. all around the place... it didn't come to wipe me out in all that time but I had no chances with it ;) )
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 02, 2014, 07:37:49 AM
Their pricing scheme was explained also bazillion times.
Prices on Steam matched kickstarter fee for access to that stage.

As for the game.. I'm disappointed - no campaign or something like that. I think it was in kickstarter but might be wrong on that point didn't check again.

I have it now and it's not my kind of fun I think (after leisure playing for about 1h I sent some sats to scout.. AI had hundreds of units.. all around the place... it didn't come to wipe me out in all that time but I had no chances with it ;) )

Feh, explanation or not, I still deem it stupid.  LOTS of other developers are capable of coming up with better pricing models... there's no reason these guys couldnt have found a better way.   As it is, WAY before the game has come out, they've already caused a good chunk of players to decide to never buy the game, because of that.  It's one of the most frequent things I hear in relation to the game.  AKA, *not* a good business move.  It is, though, a superb way to get on the road towards having a reputation of being really greedy.   Both are things that only lessen the potential sales that they'll get.  Fortunately for them, the game itself looks to be shaping up to be something great.... so a move like that isnt likely to damage them too much.  In theory.

Me, I'll still get it, but then I just tend to buy whatever the hell I want regardless of anything else.   Unless it's something by Nintendo, I'll always resist THEM.

As for the difficulty you mentioned, the developers have said that difficulty settings/sliders are coming (may already be there in most recent patch?) as that's a comment they've gotten from alot of players, is the AI being much too hard, particularly when learning the game.

They also had some.... very unique ideas about the "campaign", which apparently wont be anything like a normal campaign.  I'm not really sure how to explain it without getting the explanation totally wrong.... best to look up what they've recently said on it.  I heard it on their Twitch stream a day or two ago.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 02, 2014, 09:12:59 AM
As for the game.. I'm disappointed - no campaign or something like that. I think it was in kickstarter but might be wrong on that point didn't check again.
The KS stretch goal for that was the Galactic War thing.  They've said it will be a procedurally generated set of star systems (i.e. individual missions) with some reactive elements (counterattacks, etc), and will be playable in single-player, co-op, or as a sort of competitive clan warfare thing.

I don't think it will be the best thing since sliced bread but I'm looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 02, 2014, 11:24:19 AM
If you people say there are a bajillion ways of doing a payment model better than they did, how about you come with a suggestion instead of saying "It's bad", because personally I can't see how they would've done it without screwing their KS-backers over monumentally.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: orzelek on March 02, 2014, 07:46:38 PM
If you people say there are a bajillion ways of doing a payment model better than they did, how about you come with a suggestion instead of saying "It's bad", because personally I can't see how they would've done it without screwing their KS-backers over monumentally.

I think thats the main problem there.

I'm still looking to see how this will end up :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on March 02, 2014, 10:46:11 PM
Given that the kickstarter was meant to give certain benefits in exchange for money up front, I question this "gamma" release. The wild fluctuations and money grabbing strategies has scared me off from ever donating to one of their products. I think I will just hang off to the side and wait for a sale. I'm in favor of developers making profits, but now it's just getting gimmicky.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on March 02, 2014, 11:47:17 PM
In retrospect, I would not have given money for this game due to how money grubbing it seems. No matter what they claim, I feel screwed over paying up front for a game to later see those benefits, with the game far more solidified, for a similar price. Combine that with the pay-to-access features and the whole game just stinks from that standpoint.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 03, 2014, 02:17:13 AM
In retrospect, I would not have given money for this game due to how money grubbing it seems. No matter what they claim, I feel screwed over paying up front for a game to later see those benefits, with the game far more solidified, for a similar price. Combine that with the pay-to-access features and the whole game just stinks from that standpoint.


Exactly.

And part of the problem was that initial price.  An absurd $90 to get into the alpha!  30-40, I could see being a bit better, maybe.  But 90?  Good grief, no.  Particularly if there's going to be more paid content down the line.  That makes it even more greedy and stupid.

That's the part of their payment model that everyone was so angry about.   And the simple solution.... would have been to not do it in the first place!  As it is, they've alienated many potential customers, who now indeed see it in just that way:  too money-grubbing, too greedy.  They wonder, what other methods of screwing over their players might they come up with later?  Which is a valid concern.

And the whole "not screwing over our Kickstarter backers" bit just reeks of an excuse now to keep the price high as they go along.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Toranth on March 03, 2014, 05:56:43 AM
In retrospect, I would not have given money for this game due to how money grubbing it seems. No matter what they claim, I feel screwed over paying up front for a game to later see those benefits, with the game far more solidified, for a similar price. Combine that with the pay-to-access features and the whole game just stinks from that standpoint.
Exactly.

And part of the problem was that initial price.  An absurd $90 to get into the alpha!  30-40, I could see being a bit better, maybe.  But 90?  Good grief, no.  Particularly if there's going to be more paid content down the line.  That makes it even more greedy and stupid.
Well, what you've really said is that you don't like Kickstarter.  That's basically how it works:  Line up the fanboys early, charge 'em a premium for something minor (like early access, or a costume), and then sell most-or-all of the bonuses later a slightly more pricey DLC.

Of course, we're all spoiled here by Arcen and that whole "Hey guys, we actually listen to your feedback!" thing, where we get for free the same benefit that PA was selling for $50.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Histidine on March 03, 2014, 07:29:12 AM
Getting your views on what is probably a comparable situation: When TF2 became F2P and all the original buyers got was a lousy halo, was that screwing over said buyers?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on March 03, 2014, 08:43:39 AM
Getting your views on what is probably a comparable situation: When TF2 became F2P and all the original buyers got was a lousy halo, was that screwing over said buyers?

I wouldn't really consider the situation that comparable, Team Fortress 2 became free four years after the fact, while PA hasn't been formally released as of yet.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 03, 2014, 09:16:15 AM
Out of curiosity: did any of you think the Kickstarter money would actually completely cover the developer's expenses in developing and promoting PA?  Did they say that it would do so?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on March 03, 2014, 09:17:46 AM
Out of curiosity: did any of you think the Kickstarter money would actually completely cover the developer's expenses in developing and promoting PA?  Did they say that it would do so?

What I did not expect was to offer almost the same benefits to later backers then the original ones.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 03, 2014, 09:56:18 AM
In retrospect, I would not have given money for this game due to how money grubbing it seems. No matter what they claim, I feel screwed over paying up front for a game to later see those benefits, with the game far more solidified, for a similar price. Combine that with the pay-to-access features and the whole game just stinks from that standpoint.
Exactly.

And part of the problem was that initial price.  An absurd $90 to get into the alpha!  30-40, I could see being a bit better, maybe.  But 90?  Good grief, no.  Particularly if there's going to be more paid content down the line.  That makes it even more greedy and stupid.
Well, what you've really said is that you don't like Kickstarter.  That's basically how it works:  Line up the fanboys early, charge 'em a premium for something minor (like early access, or a costume), and then sell most-or-all of the bonuses later a slightly more pricey DLC.

Of course, we're all spoiled here by Arcen and that whole "Hey guys, we actually listen to your feedback!" thing, where we get for free the same benefit that PA was selling for $50.

Actually, I do like Kickstarter.  I back things on there frequently, all of which are in-development games that I often then get involved in testing with.  I do alot of testing in general.... gives me something to do with my absurd amount of free time... and I like supporting devs that I think are good at what they do.  KS makes it much easier for me to find the games in question, and then do both.

The difference though is that the prices usually arent bat#(%& insane.   If you look on the Planetery Annihilation KS page, the "get the game when it's done" price is $20.  Just.... 20.   So what was the alpha?  70 freaking dollars more!  That's.... no.   Just no.   Of all of the ones I've seen, not ONE of them has come even remotely close to that level of price increase between "get game when done" and "get to try it early", wether it's beta or alpha.  In addition, there wasnt exactly a whole lot else given with that monstrous price.  Two exclusive "commanders"  (and how much THIS means is debatable... the devs have stated during their streams that they dont intend on having the different commanders have different special abilities) and alpha access (in other words, the most hyper-buggy and unknown version of the game), and finally the soundtrack.... that's it.

Typically, a $90 price point gives you WAY more than that, because most devs acknowledge that yeah, this is bloody expensive as all hell (and in this economy, too...), and yeah, the privilege of trying the game early is tempered by the realities of alpha/beta testing, which could include hilarious fun things like the game not working for you for quite some time after you get it, until the devs reach whatever point they need to in order to fix the issue.  Among a bazillion other possibilities, particularly in alpha as compared to beta.

Now, if part of the reasoning is something along the lines of "Well, if we DONT do this, we wont be able to cover our expenses!" then you need to increase the BASE price of the game, not just make one or both of the testing options more absurd.  This likely would have been alot more acceptable to people.  A higher base price, and then a dramatically lower amount of difference between that and the test options wouldnt have been nearly as difficult to afford, wouldnt seem as greedy, and it makes those buying into it feel like they have more options.  "Do I want to pay an extra $20 to jump into testing right now?" is alot more of a tempting question than "Hmm, do I want to pay an extra $70 to test it right now?".  And then of course you scale up from there:  "Well, if you pay *40* more to jump into testing instead of just 20, we're going to give you all these cool things with it!"  Give players options that ENTICE them to pay you and get them to WANT to pay you, options that make them feel like they're really getting a pretty cool deal, even if it costs a little more.  Not options that JUST seem super-pricey to help them bug test a game that nobody really knows much about yet.  Heck, if beta is at 40 with this one, a more reasonable price for alpha might have been 50 or 55.  "Just 10-15 more and you get to play it even earlier!" is much better than "more than quadruple the base price and you get to play it even earlier! It's only 50 more than beta (a number which in and of itself is more than twice the base cost), come on, that's nothing!"

That people were pretty ticked off about all this is reasonable... it seriously does seem to be an idea born of pure greed, regardless of the actual reasons behind it (which is ANOTHER thing they're supposed to consider, is the consumer's probable perceptions of whatever they decide to do in terms of pricing and marketing).  In addition, those people that are permanently pushed away by what they perceive as greedy are now handing them ZERO dollars.... instead of just choosing a lower option and paying a bit less.  That ALOT of people were ticked about this is also a sign that, yeah, something really WAS wrong here, regardless of how some might try to reason it out.


They end up doing pretty well anyway because the game itself is seriously THAT promising... but there's still lots of derp that happened here.

Quote
Out of curiosity: did any of you think the Kickstarter money would actually completely cover the developer's expenses in developing and promoting PA?  Did they say that it would do so?

I personally havent heard anything from them on this, but my own natural assumption would be that no, it wouldnt.  All sorts of reasons for that, beyond just my default negative views on everything.


And on that note, to clarify a bit:  I dont believe that there was anything wrong with the total amount overall that they were hoping to get.  What was wrong was the way they went about trying to get it, and that's the bit that mattered enough to many to push them away from it forever.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 03, 2014, 11:10:47 AM
Then again, why are people so greviously horny on getting in on an alpha? A state of the game where it's, at best, barely playable? Personally, I've stopped with all alpha's and beta's simply because I find myself losing the interest when there are so many bugs and unfinished features.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 03, 2014, 08:16:40 PM
Then again, why are people so greviously horny on getting in on an alpha? A state of the game where it's, at best, barely playable? Personally, I've stopped with all alpha's and beta's simply because I find myself losing the interest when there are so many bugs and unfinished features.


Yeah, I wondered that as well, with this one.  Typically it doesnt happen like that, yeah?

Though, I suppose it was probably things like the connection between this project and other games, like Total Annihilation, Command & Conquer, Supreme Commander and Demigod.... all of which lead up to one heck of a pedigree as far as I'm concerned, in terms of their overall development team.  And as these guys say on their site, the RTS genre lately has been.... lacking.  It really isnt a very big genre right now, and for alot of players it just consists of SC2..... and according to people I know that are into that alot, even some of the pros are now starting to lose faith in that one due to major balance issues that Blizzard isnt fixing.  So that's not good.

And heck, the game even just LOOKS SupCom-ish.  That was what grabbed me initially and made me look into it more.

And yeah, I know obviously SC2 isnt REALLY the only RTS around right now... I think everyone in the group here can think of at least one other good one, yeah?.... but as a genre that used to be so big, it has definitely fallen quite a long way, and there just arent that many different good ones to choose from.


So that's my theory anyway.  A game with extreme promise in a genre that could seem to need a bit of life support at times... yeah, it's gonna attract people to it, who want to try it RIGHT THE HECK NOW even despite the problems that alpha/beta mean for them.

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 03, 2014, 09:22:35 PM
Competitively there really are only one around and that's Starcraft 2. For funsies though? I prefer Kohan: Ahriman's Gift, or Forged Alliance, personally.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Kahuna on March 07, 2014, 07:30:13 AM
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 07, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.


That.... wasnt the problem, actually.  Where are you getting this from?

The problem is that the bar was set WAY too high, at a level well beyond what most people could afford, particularly with the economy being what it is.  People wanted to try out this game and see if it was what they were hoping, maybe do some testing.... but even the BASE price, for alpha + nothing else, was MORE THAN FOUR TIMES THE BASE PRICE OF THE GAME.  That's not just bad, that's downright absurd.  For a totally untested game with no way to know if it's going to be even CLOSE to living up to the hype?  No.   It REEKED of greed, pure and simple, and some started hating the devs for it, and I dont blame them for a second.  Cant say I like the guys myself either.

And YES, I know full bloody well how Kickstarter works.  Yes, I know that you generally pay more than the base price of the game to enter the testing phases.... and that's fine.  There's nothing wrong with that, it's a good practice.  But outright MULTIPLYING the price by 4?  No.  Just no.  You dont do that.  You might have, say, a $30 game, that goes up to $40 or $45 for the alpha/beta entry cost during kickstarter.  THAT price, that makes more sense, and means that more people have the OPTION of actually choosing it, rather than looking at it and instantly going "What?!? There's no WAY I could afford that, that's crazy!  For an unfinished game?!?" which is basically the reaction that many had for this game.

As for the price lowering later?  I, frankly, dont give a damn or see it as a "problem".  Never did.  Oh, I had heard that some of the early backers were bothered by it, but.... too bad.   They already have the damn game, so I dont understand (or care about) that complaint.  It isnt the main issue.

But those that hated the insane starting price, and the still-pretty-bad current price, and the way that the devs are dealing with pricing in general?  Yeah.... I can understand THEM.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on March 07, 2014, 10:19:17 PM
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.


That.... wasnt the problem, actually.  Where are you getting this from?

The problem is that the bar was set WAY too high, at a level well beyond what most people could afford, particularly with the economy being what it is.  People wanted to try out this game and see if it was what they were hoping, maybe do some testing.... but even the BASE price, for alpha + nothing else, was MORE THAN FOUR TIMES THE BASE PRICE OF THE GAME.  That's not just bad, that's downright absurd.


Help me understand better. Are you saying that putting a high price on the alpha was inappropriate because of the state of the game? There are lots of kickstarters out there which charge obscene prices for different tiers. I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 07, 2014, 11:59:41 PM
I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.
Out of curiosity, what specifically is bogus about it?  Or, at least, what's harmfully bogus about calling it a gamma instead of a beta?

It's not release-ready yet, as they lack major promised features (galactic war), but the core game itself is quite a bit more playable than many betas I've seen.  At least from the recorded game videos (Zaphod's on youtube) I've watched, which perhaps is not the best indicator.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on March 08, 2014, 02:54:12 AM
I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.
Out of curiosity, what specifically is bogus about it?  Or, at least, what's harmfully bogus about calling it a gamma instead of a beta?

It's not release-ready yet, as they lack major promised features (galactic war), but the core game itself is quite a bit more playable than many betas I've seen.  At least from the recorded game videos (Zaphod's on youtube) I've watched, which perhaps is not the best indicator.

As has been been pointed out elsewhere, it is a matter of perception. And perception equals reality, at least it is 9/10ths of reality. Releasing a version of a game between between beta and release is almost indistinguishable from "early-access" which in itself a can of words. It is a cluster-fudge of shades of grey, which combined seem to make things confusing. And when things are confusing, it is a lot more likely for the public to assume it is bad unless it is explained why it is good (because in general, companies confuse bad things to hide it)

In other words, if the game is not a beta, and you are paying extra to access it, in the modern equivalent of "early-access". Why not call it what it is in the modern sense? Using out-dated terms confuses, which tends to hinder, and not help, perception.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 08, 2014, 06:13:17 AM
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.


That.... wasnt the problem, actually.  Where are you getting this from?

The problem is that the bar was set WAY too high, at a level well beyond what most people could afford, particularly with the economy being what it is.  People wanted to try out this game and see if it was what they were hoping, maybe do some testing.... but even the BASE price, for alpha + nothing else, was MORE THAN FOUR TIMES THE BASE PRICE OF THE GAME.  That's not just bad, that's downright absurd.


Help me understand better. Are you saying that putting a high price on the alpha was inappropriate because of the state of the game? There are lots of kickstarters out there which charge obscene prices for different tiers. I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.

It's the high price on the alpha when put in comparison to the BASE price of the game itself.  It's hard to say what the ACTUAL exact price of the game itself is going to be....  It might be 20, 30, or 40, I'm seeing LOTS of conflicting info suddenly (sigh).... But put that next to a price of 90 for the alpha.... at *best* (as I'll assume 40 for now), you are paying MORE than DOUBLE the price of the normal game to assist them in the testing of a game you know squat about, other than what they've said about it.  This, as if pricing a single game at $90 isnt insane enough.... they're pricing a single EXTREMELY NOT AT ALL FINISHED game at 90.  In a state where they get to say "Oh, sorry, you cant complain.... this is an alpha!" when people complain about any bugs.

I know that they arent the only ones making bloody stupid pricing decisions.  Obviously, it sure as heck isnt only projects in Kickstarter that do that.... I'm sure we can all think of a pile of different fully released games (often of the F2P type) that use really stupid or just really greedy/nasty/customer-screwing price models. 

And while I back Kickstarters related to game development frequently, the rule for me is that the pricing has to A: make sense, and B: not be asshattish, which is a term I made up just now, because I can.   And this game stands as one of the most overblown examples of bad pricing schemes (where "bad" can have a variety of meanings) that I've run into in quite awhile.  The fact that the game is as well-known as it is just makes it that much worse.  And their use of "Well we dont want to screw over our KS backers!" to placate some customers lately makes it even more devious; they can say this and SOUND considerate while not actually CHANGING anything whatsoever about the original screw-over. 

According to others though, I hear there's apparantly some nasty DLC/IAP/whatever-you-want-to-call-it sorts of pricing problems that may be coming along with the finished game as well?  This one I cant confirm and dont care enough about to look into it.... it's a mere rumor as far as I'm concerned.... but if it IS true (and yeah, at this point I wouldnt at all be surprised) that's even worse.


As it is, I ended up making the decision to not buy the bloody thing.  Normally I'm a total impulse buyer without any practical reason to NOT buy stuff like this when I want it, but there's just been too much in the way of screwy crap with this one, and in the end I'd prefer to just not support this and launch dollars at something else instead. 


EDIT:


As has been been pointed out elsewhere, it is a matter of perception. And perception equals reality, at least it is 9/10ths of reality. Releasing a version of a game between between beta and release is almost indistinguishable from "early-access" which in itself a can of words. It is a cluster-fudge of shades of grey, which combined seem to make things confusing. And when things are confusing, it is a lot more likely for the public to assume it is bad unless it is explained why it is good (because in general, companies confuse bad things to hide it)

In other words, if the game is not a beta, and you are paying extra to access it, in the modern equivalent of "early-access". Why not call it what it is in the modern sense? Using out-dated terms confuses, which tends to hinder, and not help, perception.

Agreed with this bit for the most part as well. 
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on March 08, 2014, 10:55:52 AM
I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.
Out of curiosity, what specifically is bogus about it?  Or, at least, what's harmfully bogus about calling it a gamma instead of a beta?


It's bogus, because they made it up. They pulled it straight from the annals of their buttocks. It is horrible because they already had a beta phase, and their kickstarter is selling access based on phase of the game. The exclusivity and the timing are what you are paying for.


Look:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts)


There is no mention of a gamma phase. Who else makes up terms like that? Beta is early release. Beta in the software industry comes before release. Making up terms in order to pull in more early release money is bogus.


"Hey, would you like early release access? It's the Alpha!"

"Hey, would you like early release access? It's the Beta!"

"Hey, would you like early release access? It's the Gamma!"


They can just keep pulling out letters of the alphabet to sell the idea of early release. Just come up with a new letter when you want another wave of money.


Bogus.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 08, 2014, 11:46:38 AM
I've seen other games have gamma phases in the dev cycle, so I don't think it's quite as ex rectum as that.  But I do get that, particularly combined with all the other borderline behavior regarding pricing and such thus far, it stops being borderline and just jumps right over.

The initial kerfluffle from pricing public access to the alpha the same as it was for the Kickstarter backers was (imo) the result of an understandable if unfortunately naive move.  But if they wanted the accusations of blatant-money-grabbing to stop there then they probably should have avoided things like pulling very-rarely-used dev phases out of ... er, a hat.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on March 08, 2014, 04:09:50 PM
Is the game any good yet? Mostly I hear about pricing and Kickstarter levels.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 08, 2014, 05:14:52 PM
Is the game any good yet? Mostly I hear about pricing and Kickstarter levels.
From the videos I've seen ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84p0WbnSwic&list=TL4ahtare3AY8MhvPmWxp3ACzcwPDpzHZR being a decent and recent example) there's certainly a game there that looks enjoyable.  If you liked the original Total Annihilation, at least.

I already have it, but I'm waiting until sometime after release to try to dig in.  Sounds like they've still got some significant balance issues to work out (T2 Air was rather OP until quite recently, and the recent nerf looks like a step in the right direction but not far enough, etc).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on March 08, 2014, 08:55:26 PM
Cool, I look forward to seeing it when it releases. It looks like a good game.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Histidine on March 09, 2014, 03:16:46 AM
Dunno about the gamma thing, but on the alpha price: Call me a Social Darwinist, but I am of the view that anyone big enough of a fool to pay USD 90 (1.5x an AAA title at release today) for a game in its most primitive, incomplete state deserves to be parted with their money, and the cynic in me applauds the PA devs for ruthlessly fleecing sheep with too much wool for their own good.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on March 09, 2014, 03:44:00 AM
That or you simply want to support the developers.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 09, 2014, 09:36:35 AM
Dunno about the gamma thing, but on the alpha price: Call me a Social Darwinist, but I am of the view that anyone big enough of a fool to pay USD 90 (1.5x an AAA title at release today) for a game in its most primitive, incomplete state deserves to be parted with their money, and the cynic in me applauds the PA devs for ruthlessly fleecing sheep with too much wool for their own good.

Agreed completely.

That or you simply want to support the developers.

This, though, does NOT require a totally crazy/greedy price to do that, though.  For any well-thought-out game kickstarter, a price point of 90 is usually WAY above what you need to pay to enter alpha OR beta, and probably comes with those AND a big pile of other stuffs.  But the base price for alpha/beta is usually quite a lot lower. 

I'm all for supporting devs, but there's a difference between "supporting" and "being ripped off".
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on March 10, 2014, 01:22:03 AM
If you want to support - you pay. If you feel you are being ripped off  - you don't. It's up to a seller to sufficiently and honestly describe what is being sold and it's up to a buyer to take it or to leave it.

Putting a high price tag on something that is not worth it may be stupid on the seller side but never a crime or reproachable. In this particular case it is not even stupid, on the contrary, they realized that the level of support they are going to get is high, so they made it supper easy for the consumer to provide this support. I cannot see how this can be construed as ripping off.

Now if you say that certain features will only be available to the backers and then sell the same features to everyone AND for a lower price - this is dishonest and despicable.  This way you basically tricked people into buying something for a higher price promising them that there wii be no price drop and then broke this promise. Some of the people would have hold on buying if they hoped to get the same cheaper later.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 10, 2014, 06:30:39 AM
If you want to support - you pay. If you feel you are being ripped off  - you don't. It's up to a seller to sufficiently and honestly describe what is being sold and it's up to a buyer to take it or to leave it.

Putting a high price tag on something that is not worth it may be stupid on the seller side but never a crime or reproachable. In this particular case it is not even stupid, on the contrary, they realized that the level of support they are going to get is high, so they made it supper easy for the consumer to provide this support. I cannot see how this can be construed as ripping off.

Now if you say that certain features will only be available to the backers and then sell the same features to everyone AND for a lower price - this is dishonest and despicable.  This way you basically tricked people into buying something for a higher price promising them that there wii be no price drop and then broke this promise. Some of the people would have hold on buying if they hoped to get the same cheaper later.

Again, the reason why people are feeling ripped off by the price that was for the alpha is because it SERIOUSLY wasnt worth $90.  Not even close. 

As had been stated above, this is $90 being paid for a game that wasnt even CLOSE to being close to being finished.  AND totally untested.  At that point, the game was JUST hype.... nothing more.  So what do they do?  They put a price on it that's way higher than even high-priced, full AAA releases.  You just dont DO that.  It's one of those sorts of things where, no, it's not illegal or anything, but you come off as a greedy snotwad who likes screwing over your customers if you try it, and I completely agree with anyone that thinks that of them.  AND it's bloody stupid. When they did it, they pushed ALOT of people away from the game permanently;  it's why the game already has such a reputation for there being tons of "haters" who wont buy it now.  That's alot of potential paying consumers lost right then and there.  AND alot that will be lost later on, as people do things like tell their friends "Oh, no, dont buy that, it's by THESE guys, who did this thing here, they're pretty nasty" and stuff like that.  That one I've already heard a bunch of people say to others at this point in various places.

Not to mention that, going along with what Histadine said, these guys are essentially using this to prey upon the stupid, getting them to pay insane costs for something that should coss probably less than half of that.  Not only is it a low thing to do, it's pretty much a direct insult to the potential consumerbase, and the smarter ones DO notice this fact.  It's another reason for some to not buy it at all now.  Makes me think of EA/Activision/Capcom, really.  Maybe not QUITE on their level of jackassery, but close enough.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on March 10, 2014, 06:52:10 AM
It's one of those sorts of things where, no, it's not illegal or anything, but you come off as a greedy snotwad who likes screwing over your customers if you try it
Yeah, that's completily ridiculous that sound and fair business strategy incites that much crowd hatred. Unfortunately people en masse can't think logically. Blizzard btw is another great example of things done right, and look at all of those who think that they strategies are questionable. They do great games, they sell them for fair prices and they give us hours and hours of enjoyment. But haters of course gonna hate.

Now what is stupid is the EA's Dungeon Keeper for iPad. But that much is obvious, because one cant buy it other than by mistake. PA on the other hand has all the promises of becoming a great game.

I personally wait until it's released / reviewed before buying it, but I do hope dor the good.

Did you by any chance backed them on Kikcstarter and now feel cheated out of your money?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on March 10, 2014, 07:45:21 AM
I'm gonna roll the dice here and wager he's expressing indignation on behalf of other people.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 10, 2014, 11:15:36 AM
It's one of those sorts of things where, no, it's not illegal or anything, but you come off as a greedy snotwad who likes screwing over your customers if you try it
Yeah, that's completily ridiculous that sound and fair business strategy incites that much crowd hatred. Unfortunately people en masse can't think logically. Blizzard btw is another great example of things done right, and look at all of those who think that they strategies are questionable. They do great games, they sell them for fair prices and they give us hours and hours of enjoyment. But haters of course gonna hate.

Now what is stupid is the EA's Dungeon Keeper for iPad. But that much is obvious, because one cant buy it other than by mistake. PA on the other hand has all the promises of becoming a great game.

I personally wait until it's released / reviewed before buying it, but I do hope dor the good.

Did you by any chance backed them on Kikcstarter and now feel cheated out of your money?


Blizzard, though, didn't use really loopy pricing schemes.   Now, granted, they're with Activision now.... so some of that wonky stuff in the future could happen, definitely (like the auction house... but at least that's about to be removed), but still... their games have normal prices.  Always have.   You pay pretty much what you expect for a high-budget new release with them.  As opposed to "pay more than double the cost of the game for this super early buggy-as-hell untested/unproven video game!  We say it's awesome, so it is!  ONLY $90!  That's like, change you can find under your car seat!"

Though I cannot speak for WoW, as while I like MMOs I never cared for that one specifically.  But it's very hard to compare MMO pricing and such to any other type of game.

As for being cheated out of money?  Nope.  I didn't bother with the Kickstarter.  Even if I had though, it'd be little reason for me to get annoyed.  I generally tend to have alot of available cash (wealthy family, which is also why I have so much free time), so I've not really got a practical spending limit.  If I feel like tossing $90 at something, I just do it, it doesnt actually matter. 

As Doctorfrog said, it's indignation on behalf of others.  I know more than a couple of people that woulda loved to have picked it up themselves, but.... at $90?  They cant afford that.... certainly not for ONE game.  The price is down NOW, yeah, but they all lost interest and now hate the developer; I cannot blame them.  It aint just them though, it's the principle of the thing, and bad business practices of any sort are one of the things that can really bug the hell outta me.  Well, more than other things, anyway.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 10, 2014, 01:13:08 PM
I find it hilarious that people "paid for Alpha access and it was nowhere near finished". Oh really, Sherlock? It's an alpha, what the heck were people expecting? An AAA-type "beta"? Ie the finished game?


If you pay for alpha access (ALPHA! Not even beta!) you have to expect it to be basically the skeleton of a game. Alphas are mostly not even feature complete and contains tons of placeholder art and code.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on March 10, 2014, 01:41:37 PM
I find it hilarious that people "paid for Alpha access and it was nowhere near finished". Oh really, Sherlock? It's an alpha, what the heck were people expecting? An AAA-type "beta"? Ie the finished game?


If you pay for alpha access (ALPHA! Not even beta!) you have to expect it to be basically the skeleton of a game. Alphas are mostly not even feature complete and contains tons of placeholder art and code.
I'll second this. Its not Alpha access as in 'Oh man, I'm alpha, I'm awesomerer than you'. Its 'Buggy missing features alpha, you aren't missing much if you wait.'
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Billick on March 10, 2014, 03:15:15 PM
I do kind of wonder how many people were pushed away from the game "permanently", and how many people are just waiting for the price to drop, or at least wait for the official release.  You can't deny that early access is a pretty hot thing right now, and lots of people are willing to pay extra for it.  Now would I personally pay $90 for an alpha/beta?  Hell no.  But I have a feeling that the extra income from charging more for early access will more than make up for the relatively few people who will never buy the game because of the early pricing.  I honestly don't think that many people are paying that much attention.  The bottom line, I think, is that if the game is good, they are going to come out okay.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on March 10, 2014, 03:37:01 PM
I think the price was ridiculous, but not in a way that makes me angry and all boycotty or something. However, it very much did raise my threshold to consider buying it when the game is released.

I dislike the attitude that kickstarter backers have sometimes though, where they feel entitled to be treated like a special class of customer that is forever above all others. I don't like 'exclusives' that are added to games that only backers receive (I'm fine if it's some out of game thing). Things like that pretty much mean I won't purchase that product.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on March 10, 2014, 07:29:37 PM
I do kind of wonder how many people were pushed away from the game "permanently", and how many people are just waiting for the price to drop, or at least wait for the official release.  You can't deny that early access is a pretty hot thing right now, and lots of people are willing to pay extra for it.  Now would I personally pay $90 for an alpha/beta?  Hell no.  But I have a feeling that the extra income from charging more for early access will more than make up for the relatively few people who will never buy the game because of the early pricing.  I honestly don't think that many people are paying that much attention.  The bottom line, I think, is that if the game is good, they are going to come out okay.

Yep.

And this developer is lucky that they have such a product being put out, or honestly, this could have damaged them quite a bit.  As it is though, they'll end up with lower profits than what they could have had, which is what happens when you anger consumers.

Still, the number of irritated non-buyers is higher than you might think.  Damn game still comes to mind alot for me because this is usually what I hear about it whenever it's being discussed. It's a big part of why the number of "haters" is still high, even with the price drop now.

My own interest is completely dead though one way or another.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on March 10, 2014, 08:36:27 PM
They have the ability to wreck planets, which is a huge selling point for me.


They also appear to be a bunch of asshats. I'm not committing one way or the other yet, but I am not going to buy it for anything less than cheap.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Billick on March 11, 2014, 09:14:01 AM
Yep.

And this developer is lucky that they have such a product being put out, or honestly, this could have damaged them quite a bit.  As it is though, they'll end up with lower profits than what they could have had, which is what happens when you anger consumers.

Still, the number of irritated non-buyers is higher than you might think.  Damn game still comes to mind alot for me because this is usually what I hear about it whenever it's being discussed. It's a big part of why the number of "haters" is still high, even with the price drop now.

My own interest is completely dead though one way or another.
Well I could be wrong.  I haven't been following the game that closely.  I will note that angry people tend to be more vocal than happy people in this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on May 29, 2014, 02:58:01 PM
Well, PA just released its official "Galactic War" mode which takes the battle from the solar system level, to a turned-based into real-time galaxy level battle with the AI.

I suppose I'm finally dusting off my Kickstarter Key and giving this game a chance. I wanted to wait for official release but I'm breaking my vow and trying it in "gamma phase" (their words, not mine).

Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on May 29, 2014, 03:01:31 PM
Well, PA just released its official "Galactic War" mode which takes the battle from the solar system level, to a turned-based into real-time galaxy level battle with the AI.

I suppose I'm finally dusting off my Kickstarter Key and giving this game a chance. I wanted to wait for official release but I'm breaking my vow and trying it in "gamma phase" (their words, not mine).

Wish me luck.
I heartily hope you find it enjoyable.  Let me know how it goes as I've also been sitting on my kickstarter keys rather than expend my first-actual-gameplay-impression on a pre-release version.  The Galactic War thing was the biggest piece I was waiting for, though I figured I'd wait until its initial balance and such shook out.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 22, 2014, 01:57:41 PM
$17 now on Steam... lol
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: madcow on June 22, 2014, 02:06:33 PM
How far off is this from its expected final release? I understand those dates usually slip, but are they saying another year, another half year, just a few months?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Toranth on June 22, 2014, 02:16:42 PM
How far off is this from its expected final release? I understand those dates usually slip, but are they saying another year, another half year, just a few months?
Pretty close - they've already started shipping physical copies to retailers, although what they are shipping is labeled "Early Access Edition".  Supposedly all they're doing now is bug fixes and balance tweaks.

Retail MSRP is $49.99, which makes 66% for the Steam Summer Sale a little high of a discount for something not officially released yet... but then again, it's been playable for over a year, to people who were willing to pay for the privilege.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: madcow on June 22, 2014, 02:34:28 PM
Yeah, that's why I'm tempted by it. You have 40ish hours to convince me :D
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 05, 2014, 03:55:41 PM
IT HAS BEEN RELEASED!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enzglv8sLn8

And I have to say, the launch quality is freaking awesome. Absolutely worth the $100 I spent (to support Uber) and the two year wait. This game is going to keep me busy for a long, long time to come.

As a person who grew up playing Total Annihilation, who always wanted a worthy sequel, and who was disappointed by the SupCom series as a whole, I can honestly say that this game has exceeded all my expectations. I only hope that they keep putting in the time and effort they have so far to make it better and better.

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 05, 2014, 04:03:23 PM
Glad to hear it :)  But can I play singleplayer without an internet connection?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 05, 2014, 04:16:07 PM
I don't think so, but why wouldn't you have an internet connection?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 05, 2014, 04:17:39 PM
Mine drops periodically, and even if it didn't I'd prefer to avoid the point-of-failure of the server-side losing connection or getting bogged down, etc.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: WingedKagouti on September 05, 2014, 04:21:59 PM
Glad to hear it :)  But can I play singleplayer without an internet connection?
From what I've read, a connection to their server is required. Which makes it a bad idea to try playing for the first few days (until things stabilize).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Hearteater on September 05, 2014, 04:35:20 PM
Man that looks fun. I miss the old TA. And the mods.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 05, 2014, 04:39:08 PM
There were indeed some glorious TA mods.

I had such a blast with armies of huge multi-part multi-weapon mechs, trying to find a way to defeat massive AI-controlled bases.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 05, 2014, 05:11:17 PM
Mine drops periodically, and even if it didn't I'd prefer to avoid the point-of-failure of the server-side losing connection or getting bogged down, etc.
Same here. I don't like strings, when there's no practical need for them other than to exert arbitrary control over players. SimCity 2013, anyone?

I'll wait before approaching this with a wallet. I am looking forward to the glowing reviews and play reports, though. It looks like a good video game.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 05, 2014, 08:17:00 PM
Ah, it was finally released?

I have checked all my emails of the last few years...how do I access this if I supported it as a basic member back during kickstarter?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 05, 2014, 08:32:26 PM
Ah, it was finally released?

I have checked all my emails of the last few years...how do I access this if I supported it as a basic member back during kickstarter?
It was mentioned quite some time ago, but they've apparently also added it to a FAQ. Thats saves me some times searching. (also, on a seperate FAQ, there is still notes about Offline mode/LAN coming at launch. Presumably it will be coming soon then, unless uber forgot)

Quote
I’m An Early Backer On Kickstarter. Where’s My Key?

If you went to the Uber Store and couldn’t see your early backer pledge, it’s probably because you haven’t finalized your pledge yet. An order must be finalized before it becomes visible in our account system.

Go to http://uberent.com/KS/FindMyPledge and enter the email address you originally used with Kickstarter or Paypal to find your pledge. If the link tells you it can’t find an e-mail, you probably weren’t an early backer. If you’re totally certain you were an early backer — rather than a pre-orderer — please e-mail support.

If you were an early backer through Kickstarter or Paypal, or you have pre-ordered the game through the Uber Store, and you don’t see the Backers Lounge in your available forum areas, first, after logging into the forums at least once, logout of them via the logout button (just closing the browser window won’t work), and then log back in. In 99% of situations, that will get your account flagged properly. If it doesn’t, on the forums, please send a PM to BradNicholson.

Users who purchased Planetary Annihilation through Steam are not expected to have game keys. Only users who purchased PA through Kickstarter or the Uber store will have game keys listed in their “My Keys” page. This is because with a Steam purchase, Steam itself is responsible for tracking the ownership status of the game, whereas with Uber purchases ownership of the game is tracked by activation key.

Wait, I Need To Edit My Address Or E-mail! Where Can I Do That?

You can go to https://store.uberent.com/Account/MyAccount to edit your address, email address, display name (For in-game only – no aliases on the forums!)

The account page will show your purchase history. This shows all purchases, and a breakdown of what you selected, in the case of certain early backing packages, the Cosmic Limited Edition, etc.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 05, 2014, 08:37:46 PM
Many thanks! The gremlins are doing their work now.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 05, 2014, 09:01:48 PM
(also, on a seperate FAQ, there is still notes about Offline mode/LAN coming at launch. Presumably it will be coming soon then, unless uber forgot)
Yea, I knew they'd said we'd get a no-drm offline-mode, but I didn't see it or any mention of it (or of it coming soon) in their official-release announcement, so I figured it was time to ask questions ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 05, 2014, 09:04:02 PM
Yea, I knew they'd said we'd get a no-drm offline-mode, but I didn't see it or any mention of it (or of it coming soon) in their official-release announcement, so I figured it was time to ask questions ;)

Given their...previous practices, I was happy enough to just get the game. I don't expect anything else.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 05, 2014, 09:05:46 PM
If they don't follow through on that one, they should keep sharp eyes out for any suspicious-looking new moons in the sky ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 05, 2014, 09:12:22 PM
Wait what? You have to have a connection now? Gnrrrghfg.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 05, 2014, 09:14:28 PM
Iirc it's always required a connection from the beginning of the alpha/beta, since the game only ran on their servers (allowing them to collect data for development).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 05, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
Iirc it's always required a connection from the beginning of the alpha/beta, since the game only ran on their servers (allowing them to collect data for development).
Yep.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: madcow on September 05, 2014, 09:22:25 PM
So somebody care to summarize this game up? How's it compare to Starcraft for instance (I never played the game this one is inspired by). How many factions and how different are they. Does the game play feel real fast paced like Starcraft (which is way too fast for me) or is it a bit slower?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 05, 2014, 09:28:13 PM
Have you played a spring engine game, or Supreme Commander? Those are also fairly close to Total Annihilation.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 05, 2014, 09:31:13 PM
I haven't played starcraft 2, but TA was significantly slower paced (to me) than the original starcraft.  From what I've seen of youtube videos of PA the pacing is similar to TA.  It seems to allow time to think, given decent mental agility.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 05, 2014, 11:29:12 PM
I don't think so, but why wouldn't you have an internet connection?

You clearly haven't experienced "the best" that US internet has to offer if you've made this comment....

*To expand*

For the majority of my life, I've had to deal with slow to extremely poor internet speeds, constant drop outs and ()*&@% customer service. It's only in the past couple of years when I moved, and had to choose Comcast, has it stabilized and been reasonable. But I'm waiting for the other thing on your foot to drop. So yeah, always-online DRM is something I truly hate.

If PA has always-online DRM, count me out. It is a deal breaker for me if a game, and especially RTS/Strategy games, come with always-online DRM. Everyone else has figured out how to do non-server-based RTSes before, they can figure it out now.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2014, 12:30:52 AM
Had a great start.

Saw what happened when I landed on a planet, thought:

"THIS is the map I play on"

then quit.

Wasn't inspired at all. Maybe over time I'll warm up to it?

[Yes. I'm aware of the title]
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on September 06, 2014, 01:15:34 AM
and had to choose Comcast, has it stabilized and been reasonable.


what.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2014, 01:35:36 AM
and had to choose Comcast, has it stabilized and been reasonable.


what.
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2014, 02:36:06 AM
I don't think so, but why wouldn't you have an internet connection?

You clearly haven't experienced "the best" that US internet has to offer if you've made this comment....

*To expand*

For the majority of my life, I've had to deal with slow to extremely poor internet speeds, constant drop outs and ()*&@% customer service. It's only in the past couple of years when I moved, and had to choose Comcast, has it stabilized and been reasonable. But I'm waiting for the other thing on your foot to drop. So yeah, always-online DRM is something I truly hate.

If PA has always-online DRM, count me out. It is a deal breaker for me if a game, and especially RTS/Strategy games, come with always-online DRM. Everyone else has figured out how to do non-server-based RTSes before, they can figure it out now.
That's your right, however the game was specifically designed in such a way that the servers handle the massive load of most of the game including the planets, their orbits, the shadows, and much of the load of thousands or tens of thousands of units duking it out across an entire solar system.

To my knowledge, it's the first RTS to ever use this mechanic, allowing such massive-scale battles while still keeping fantastic performance on even the most modest of PCs. It also avoids the individual slowdown, "weakest link in the chain" problem basically every RTS since the beginning of time has had when the architecture is structured around the players, not the server. One person shouldn't ruin the fun for everyone else, and the way Uber designed the game handles it fantastically.

Considering that they've (in my opinion) completely revolutionized the RTS genre by literally bringing to the planetary scale, doing in all within two years, and on an Indie Developer budget, I honestly think there's no room to complain. There's a good explanation for why it was designed this way, and while offline single player may be added in the future, I can't fault them for not putting in the extra few months of work before release just for people using 56k modems in the year 2014.

This isn't an RPG like Diablo 3 in which there's absolutely no excuse to not have a single-player offline option. That was just pure greed on Blizzard's part, I completely agree. However Uber isn't a billion dollar company either, and Planetary Annihilation isn't a small-scale, zoomed-in RPG with one character and locally generated monsters.

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: zespri on September 06, 2014, 02:42:34 AM
That's your right, however the game was specifically designed in such a way that the servers handle the massive load of most of the game including the planets, their orbits, the shadows, and much of the load of thousands or tens of thousands of units duking it out across an entire solar system.
Excuse me, what are you talking about? Did they not promise off-line single player from the get go?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 06, 2014, 03:19:57 AM
and had to choose Comcast, has it stabilized and been reasonable.


what.
My thoughts exactly.

I know right? I'm still waiting for this to suck at some point. I'm not crazy for expecting that, surely I'm not....and no, I can't tell you why its been good. I'm going with: extremely lucky.

That's your right, however the game was specifically designed in such a way that the servers handle the massive load of most of the game including the planets, their orbits, the shadows, and much of the load of thousands or tens of thousands of units duking it out across an entire solar system.

Yeah, I've heard the performance argument before...hmm...oh right, EA with SimCity (5). Except that was proven to be a bunch of bull. So, you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical.

Quote
To my knowledge, it's the first RTS to ever use this mechanic, allowing such massive-scale battles while still keeping fantastic performance on even the most modest of PCs. It also avoids the individual slowdown, "weakest link in the chain" problem basically every RTS since the beginning of time has had when the architecture is structured around the players, not the server. One person shouldn't ruin the fun for everyone else, and the way Uber designed the game handles it fantastically.


Which is impressive, if true. At this point, I have no reason to disbelieve it but this song has been sung to me many times lately when companies attempt to justify always-online DRM so to hear someone else say it makes me extremely suspicious. However, this has a big drawback to it: you're dependent on their servers. Which as we all know, last a finite amount of time.  AKA: for however long they continue to remain profitable.

Quote
Considering that they've (in my opinion) completely revolutionized the RTS genre by literally bringing to the planetary scale, doing in all within two years, and on an Indie Developer budget, I honestly think there's no room to complain.

I don't care if they're EA, Valve, Arcen Games or an old company resurrected from the dead. Always-online DRM for single player games is a deal breaker. And yes, there is always plenty of room to complain. The indie dev and small budget cards aren't immunity from criticism. The game still has to be up to snuff. Otherwise, how will games ever improve? There is never a perfect game, there never will be. Which is a good thing but holding back just because they're indie and they "completely revolutionized" the genre isn't valid.

To be frank, I thought the two year development cycle of a complicated RTS game was too quick. I've got games from Kickstarter of less complex genres still in BETA and active development polishing things out before release. I don't really understand why they rushed the release on this game.

Quote
There's a good explanation for why it was designed this way, and while offline single player may be added in the future, I can't fault them for not putting in the extra few months of work before release just for people using 56k modems in the year 2014.

I'm sorry, but did you not read what I just said? A lot of people in the US alone have very few, if any, choices when it comes to their Internet. And what they do get, is usually a terrible high-speed internet service. And even if we ignore the awful ISP situation in the USA, there's also the other end, the servers themselves. Even if we had a perfect ISP situation, servers FAIL. They go down, they lag up, they cause problems. The companies with the most experience with servers still have issues to this very day. (Everyone from Blizzard to Hi-Rez). Playing an MMO, online FPS/MOBA or any other online multiplayer game should give you more than enough experience with that. It's one more thing to fail, to go wrong. As such, I think its not too crazy to not want to deal with that while in the middle of a single player game.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2014, 03:26:39 AM
As I said, it's your right, and I certainly understand your position, but I think what Uber has done in only 2 years with an indie budget is absolutely extraordinary. Unmatched by any feat of development I've heard or seen in my entire lifetime as a gamer. I've seen games with 8+ year development cycles that haven't even held a candle to what they've done with this game in such a short period of time. Granted, they could have kept it in beta longer, but they released all the features they promised in Kickstarter, and offline single player was never one of those, to my knowledge.

I think they've been more than fair to their fanbase, have far exceeded the expectations of what most developers could do in the same timeframe, and have (once again, in my opinion) revolutionized the RTS genre from a meager, quaint 2D square plane to battles raging across entire solar systems, where the "maps" themselves can be used as weapons against other maps. Just like the original Total Annihilation which was released in '97, it will be another decade before the rest of the gaming world can even catch up.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 06, 2014, 03:41:06 AM
As I said, it's your right, and I certainly understand your position, but I think what Uber has done in only 2 years with an indie budget is absolutely extraordinary. Unmatched by any feat of development I've heard or seen in my entire lifetime as a gamer. I've seen games with 8+ year development cycles that haven't even held a candle to what they've done with this game in such a short period of time. Granted, they could have kept it in beta longer, but they released all the features they promised in Kickstarter, and offline single player was never one of those, to my knowledge.

I think they've been more than fair to their fanbase, have far exceeded the expectations of what most developers could do in the same timeframe, and have (once again, in my opinion) revolutionized the RTS genre from a meager, quaint 2D square plane to battles raging across entire solar systems, where the "maps" themselves can be used as weapons against other maps. Just like the original Total Annihilation which was released in '97, it will be another decade before the rest of the gaming world can even catch up.

Which it is impressive that at least one more kickstarter dev actually stuck to their word. Because we've had quite a few more completely fail to meet expectations or disappear altogether. But let's be fair here, Uber had experience with TA and SupCom and from what I've seen via videos so far, that experience and knowledge shows. Its not like these guys were starting from scratch. Whether this is as revolutionary and awesome as you say it is, well, the jury is out on that. At least for me. As-is, I'm delaying the purchase until sometime after the single-player offline experience comes out. So, I can't really comment on anything other than the DRM-requirements at this time.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on September 06, 2014, 05:14:05 AM
Wait, this game is one of them always-online sorts?

Though wasnt the single-player stuff not even at all there yet?  Or maybe that's changed since I last messed with it?  Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.


As online-only-whatever goes, I usually A: dont care, and B: dont notice.  My thoughts on it are very simple:  If you've got a good connection, and your machine is online all the time ANYWAY, well... to me, not a problem.

Particularly since, if the Net should go down.... *lots* of things on your PC instantly stop working.  Many people wont actually be trying to run anything during that time, because they'll be sitting there trying to fix it until it works.  That's always been my experience, which is one reason why I often dont notice online-only requirements.  If the Net goes down, it takes half of the machine with it.  And I get irritable when things dont work and will sit there for hours trying to force it to work.

Now if your connection kinda sucks.... that's a whole other matter.


Though, WHY some of these games end up being this way, I often dont know.  Things like SimCity (ugh) being nasty examples.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2014, 07:23:57 AM
Had a great start.

Saw what happened when I landed on a planet, thought:

"THIS is the map I play on"

then quit.

Wasn't inspired at all. Maybe over time I'll warm up to it?

[Yes. I'm aware of the title]
Depends a lot on what map you chose, I guess. The very smallest maps are usually either two moons and one central planet, or two planets. Ideal for 2-4 players. Then there are the really big maps made for 8+ players that house multiple moons, asteroids and planets. What was the problem with the map?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Hearteater on September 06, 2014, 09:07:41 AM
Just because a game is client-server doesn't mean it has DRM. They may be functionally similar, but they are not the same.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2014, 09:29:25 AM
Granted, they could have kept it in beta longer, but they released all the features they promised in Kickstarter, and offline single player was never one of those, to my knowledge.

From https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/289765 :

Quote
Offline / LAN play support
By popular demand we are happy to announce that we will support LAN play and running your own servers! There will be elements of the game that are online only and will only be available when connected. For example things like player stats, auto-updating, metagame etc. However, we feel it’s important to be able to have an offline experience as well.

DRM-Free
For offline play, the game will be DRM free. For online play that gives you access to the global community and social features, you will need to be logged in.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 06, 2014, 09:46:43 AM
Yeah, you missed one Wingflier.

Also theres a giant circular argument on Uber's forum currently (which is considerably nicer than a quick peek elsewhere), but the general direction of it seems to be 'It'll get here when it gets there, they probably wanted to have 1.0 ready for pax'.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2014, 10:26:00 AM
Depends a lot on what map you chose, I guess. The very smallest maps are usually either two moons and one central planet, or two planets. Ideal for 2-4 players. Then there are the really big maps made for 8+ players that house multiple moons, asteroids and planets. What was the problem with the map?

For me, the planet felt...way to much curved. Perhaps I found my first game on the smallest "map" but when I saw my building curve a little I was like "wat?"

I understand worlds curve, but how much?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2014, 10:27:33 AM
I'm guessing the assumption is either really small planets or really big buildings.

Still, if you have to start designing your walker-mechs with offset hip joints to account for surface curvature, there might be a problem :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 06, 2014, 10:39:12 AM
I never had a problem with the curve of the planets, I have more of a problem trying to keep track of my buildings if I use the non-pole-lock camera mode. I'll zoom out and look elsewhere and then my buildings will have spun around  or something.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: mrhanman on September 06, 2014, 10:48:40 AM
I hope to pick this up at some point, but I'm in the no-always-online-requirement camp.  I have good internet service, and always having an internet connection isn't technically a problem, but at some point in the future, the servers will be taken offline and I won't be able to play it anymore.  As someone who still breaks out Wake of the Ravager every now and then, that's just not acceptable to me.  I have no philosophical beef with their requirements, only a practical one.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2014, 01:37:19 PM
I never had a problem with the curve of the planets, I have more of a problem trying to keep track of my buildings if I use the non-pole-lock camera mode. I'll zoom out and look elsewhere and then my buildings will have spun around  or something.
Haha, this so much! I have to pole lock my camera I think. The spinning really messes with my spatial senses.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2014, 02:08:51 PM
Quote
If PA has always-online DRM, count me out. It is a deal breaker for me if a game, and especially RTS/Strategy games, come with always-online DRM. Everyone else has figured out how to do non-server-based RTSes before, they can figure it out now.
Wait a minute, is this coming from the person that plays SMITE more than any other video game in his arsenal?

@Keith, you got me there. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2014, 02:30:16 PM
Quote
If PA has always-online DRM, count me out. It is a deal breaker for me if a game, and especially RTS/Strategy games, come with always-online DRM. Everyone else has figured out how to do non-server-based RTSes before, they can figure it out now.
Wait a minute, is this coming from the person that plays SMITE more than any other video game in his arsenal?
SMITE is a multiplayer game.  I don't think the objection is to PA's multiplayer requiring a connection (LAN support aside), but rather its singleplayer doing so.

Anyway, my grumblings aside I'm confident Uber will patch in offline singleplayer in the not-very-distant future.  Given what they'd said in the past failing to follow through would be aiming the annihilaser at their feet, and they're more than smart enough to know that.

They're not helping my opinion of them with this order of operations, however.  I dug pretty deep for this kickstarter; I don't know that I'd do it again.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2014, 02:36:12 PM

They're not helping my opinion of them with this order of operations, however.  I dug pretty deep for this kickstarter; I don't know that I'd do it again.

Yes, PA was a sobering experience for me regarding kickstarter. Considering I don't like preordering in general, even when things go "well" as PA seems to have, I still feel like I would rather not do it again.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2014, 02:44:26 PM
Yea, they did deliver a game.  I don't see it as a failure of kickstarter at all.  But it does sober my expectations for such projects in the future.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: madcow on September 06, 2014, 02:44:53 PM
I think that's the attitude most people have with regards to kickstarter. I thought it was the greatest thing ever. Now I'm fairly meh about it. Same with early access.

If anybody has good vid links that show off the game feel free to link them here, would be nice to get a good feel for it. I like RTS games, but starcraft has always felt waaay too fast-paced for me, and there's not really many other options.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2014, 02:45:07 PM
*Shrug*, it doesn't bother me any. They could have called it beta for another few months while they worked on releasing the offline single player aspect even though the rest of the game is fully playable, but they went ahead and decided to fully release it. I have no idea what their financial situation looks like, but it's not uncommon for indie companies to release games a bit early when they're running low on funds to keep their head above water while they continue to add features.

I have no regrets giving my $100 to them, I'd do it all over again if that's what they needed to complete the game; and I don't have a job. I have the fullest confidence that by this time next year, the game will be even more polished and amazing than it is right now. For a release though, on a game of this scale, I'd say they've done great work.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2014, 02:51:16 PM
Quote
If anybody has good vid links that show off the game feel free to link them here, would be nice to get a good feel for it. I like RTS games, but starcraft has always felt waaay too fast-paced for me, and there's not really many other options.
At the end of the game, the stats reveal your average APM throughout the match. Mine is somewhere in the 5-7 range, if that tells you anything, and as a person who has been playing Total Annihilation (and spin offs) my whole life, I could probably beat 75% of the playerbase easily.

In Starcraft the average APM to be a decent player is well over 100.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 06, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
If anybody has good vid links that show off the game feel free to link them here, would be nice to get a good feel for it. I like RTS games, but starcraft has always felt waaay too fast-paced for me, and there's not really many other options.
Yea, offline concerns aside, I'm looking for reasons to like the game, not reasons to not like the game.  In the past I've found http://www.youtube.com/user/ZaphodX1 to be a good source of gameplay videos.  I'd recommend some specific ones but the last ones I watched personally were from a much earlier phase of development.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 06, 2014, 03:50:51 PM
Quote
If PA has always-online DRM, count me out. It is a deal breaker for me if a game, and especially RTS/Strategy games, come with always-online DRM. Everyone else has figured out how to do non-server-based RTSes before, they can figure it out now.
Wait a minute, is this coming from the person that plays SMITE more than any other video game in his arsenal?

Seems someone has been stalking my Steam status lately. SMITE is an online multiplayer game. Doesn't really matter if there is DRM or not, this isn't a game I could pick up in 5-10 years and still enjoy then. This isn't AI War and I don't play it with the AI War mentality in mind. I go through phases where I latch onto a multiplayer experience and play a ton out of it, then, walk away. It's how it was with WOW, EVE, Tribes and now SMITE. At some point, I will be done with SMITE and move back to playing more "traditional" games for a while. SMITE isn't the most played game I have in my arsenal, though, if things continue as they have been into 2015, it may very well be. Who knows. I take issue with DRM in single-player experiences and as SMITE isn't one, well, there you go.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: GhoulMX on September 06, 2014, 03:54:30 PM
I have the game. I really recomend it if you enjoy playing AI: WAR Fleet Command.  Planetary Anahilation is just as unique and fun.  Check it out!  8)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 06, 2014, 05:39:11 PM
Quote
If anybody has good vid links that show off the game feel free to link them here, would be nice to get a good feel for it. I like RTS games, but starcraft has always felt waaay too fast-paced for me, and there's not really many other options.
At the end of the game, the stats reveal your average APM throughout the match. Mine is somewhere in the 5-7 range, if that tells you anything, and as a person who has been playing Total Annihilation (and spin offs) my whole life, I could probably beat 75% of the playerbase easily.

In Starcraft the average APM to be a decent player is well over 100.
I'd agree with Wingflier here. You don't need to go fast, but you need to go, and keep expanding as much as you can without melting your economy into a puddle of red deficit.

Is the commander building/assisting? He shouldn't be sitting around unless you're planning to evac him soon from your current planet. Same for fabricators, have them building more of everything or at least assisting factories. More radar. More metal extractor claims. More factories. Advanced factories. Defense towers. Artillery pieces. Umbrellas. Orbital launchers. Metal or Energy storage? Something.
Set factories to loop-build anything useful if they aren't needed for making a specific set of units or more fabricators/adv. fabricators. Send your loop-built forces out to scout, or to smash enemy metals and bases. It wouldn't be the most effective thing in the world probably, but if you wanted you could set a some factories to planetwide patrol via area command and have a more ore less random stream of units wander about (or in the case of air units, fly about).

This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc_ihFXaEZ8) is recent and seems to describe what I'm trying to mean fairly well.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2014, 06:04:21 PM
The PA single player experience is, to me, just about as deep as the single player experience of Smite. That is to say that Smite was built from the ground up to be a multi-player game, the bots were added as an afterthought and Planetary Annihilation is absolutely no different. It is a single player game in the loosest sense possible, even the Galactic War campaign is just a series of single player skirmishes on randomly generated systems with limited technology. It would be no different, in my mind, than all the different modes in which AI can be used in Smite.

That isn't making excuses for the Uber development team though, if they promised it, it should have been available at release.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 06, 2014, 06:15:25 PM
The PA single player experience is, to me, just about as deep as the single player experience of Smite. That is to say that Smite was built from the ground up to be a multi-player game, the bots were added as an afterthought and Planetary Annihilation is absolutely no different. It is a single player game in the loosest sense possible, even the Galactic War campaign is just a series of single player skirmishes on randomly generated systems with limited technology. It would be no different, in my mind, than all the different modes in which AI can be used in Smite.

That isn't making excuses for the Uber development team though, if they promised it, it should have been available at release.

But what happens when the game's server goes away? This is never something I have to worry about with AI War but it would be a constant worry with a game like PA because AFAIK: their business model will have a limited time span. Maybe a couple of expansions are possible to keep development running but they have to generate money somehow, have they addressed this?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2014, 06:42:31 PM
I'm hoping they'll start adding expansions. I've already thought of a few things they could add to the game right off the bat that would improve it dramatically (in my opinion):

1. Tier 3 - Ironically, in the original Total Annihilation, Tier 3 also came as a piece of expansion content, but was one of the most loved additions to the game by gamers and mod developers alike. I'm sure this will come along either way, the only question is whether it will be in free DLC or paid expansion form.

2. Different "races/factions" - New factions with entirely unique mechanics and units would fit very well into the game as expansion content. Right now there's just one faction and it does pretty well in most situations, but there's plenty of room for creativity if they want to go that route.

3. A more fleshed out and emergent "space battle" element. They could devote an entire expansion to this. Starships, battlecruisers, space fighters and bombers, orbital ion cannons, you name it bro.

4. More planet types/nebula options. This speaks for itself, but the possibilities are endless here.

Also there's some incentive for some cosmetic DLC with all the different commander skins they've already made. Unit skins, building skins, weapon/projectile skins, the sky is the limit.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on September 06, 2014, 08:33:25 PM
Quote
If anybody has good vid links that show off the game feel free to link them here, would be nice to get a good feel for it. I like RTS games, but starcraft has always felt waaay too fast-paced for me, and there's not really many other options.
At the end of the game, the stats reveal your average APM throughout the match. Mine is somewhere in the 5-7 range, if that tells you anything, and as a person who has been playing Total Annihilation (and spin offs) my whole life, I could probably beat 75% of the playerbase easily.

In Starcraft the average APM to be a decent player is well over 100.


I always wonder just how Starcraft ends up even being a "strategy" game, provided it is at all.

Not to mention that I always wonder how many *actual* actions each given player is doing in a minute... since it often seems like when someone goes to give exactly one move order or something, they'll click the ground there not once, but 9999999999999999 times.  Same thing in the moba genre, though nobody seems to give a crap about the actual APM number there.


Anyway.

Sounds like this game still doesnt have anything resembling a full single-player mode, from what I"m seeing here?   All of that deep, procedural campaign stuff they'd rambled on about?   Which is pretty much the only reason I have a copy.  Ugh.   To be fair, yes, I probably shoulda just exercised more self control and not bought the damn thing, but.... yeah, like that's happening anytime soon.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 06, 2014, 08:49:33 PM
Well, Galactic War does have proceduralness, but its mostly in the system map layout and what tech shows up where. Not particularly deep.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: madcow on September 06, 2014, 11:10:46 PM
I tend to agree that starcraft is less a strategy game. It's more of a multitasking game. There's strategy at maybe the top end of it. But for all the rest of us, it's how well we can remember to check back and make units/etc while doing other things at the same time.  I think my all-time favorite RTS games were myth and the close combat series.

Starcraft campaign is nice, and I've played blizzard RTS games since the days of Warcraft (good ole' dial up), but the strategy part takes a back-seat to the multitasking & other aspects.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Hearteater on September 07, 2014, 08:30:49 AM
Not to mention that I always wonder how many *actual* actions each given player is doing in a minute... since it often seems like when someone goes to give exactly one move order or something, they'll click the ground there not once, but 9999999999999999 times.  Same thing in the moba genre, though nobody seems to give a crap about the actual APM number there.
So from checking in to APM on SC in the past, I've come to the following conclusion: A lot of those APM are totally wasted on giving duplicate orders. A ton of them. However, they keep their APM high to establish the physical response rate in the game. If they try and play to only issues orders at need, as soon as then need to issue a quick group of orders they have trouble going from "0 to 60". It also affects their mental state as they play. When you are constantly issuing commands you can mentally slot each new command you need to issue in very easily. So the constant physical activity keeps them in the mental space to issue fast orders as well as keeps their hands in a state to respond instantly to give those orders.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 07, 2014, 08:52:26 AM
Yea, starcraft is more like a time-management game.  Specifically, managing your time as a player.

Very interesting stuff, but it's strange to apply the same word "strategy" (or even "RTS") to both Starcraft and, say, AIW.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on September 07, 2014, 09:46:25 PM
Not to mention that I always wonder how many *actual* actions each given player is doing in a minute... since it often seems like when someone goes to give exactly one move order or something, they'll click the ground there not once, but 9999999999999999 times.  Same thing in the moba genre, though nobody seems to give a crap about the actual APM number there.
So from checking in to APM on SC in the past, I've come to the following conclusion: A lot of those APM are totally wasted on giving duplicate orders. A ton of them. However, they keep their APM high to establish the physical response rate in the game. If they try and play to only issues orders at need, as soon as then need to issue a quick group of orders they have trouble going from "0 to 60". It also affects their mental state as they play. When you are constantly issuing commands you can mentally slot each new command you need to issue in very easily. So the constant physical activity keeps them in the mental space to issue fast orders as well as keeps their hands in a state to respond instantly to give those orders.

Geh, this one always goes over my head.

I see this in fighting games as well. Other player tends to get overly excited easily... or at least that's what it always looks like to me.... and their character will start jittering back and forth, possibly with some random flailing added.  Happens in pretty much any fighter, is most obvious in the Smash series.

Wheras I will then just stand there and wait for them to do something if they're twitching that much.  Typically, they're easier to put a stop to in this state, I've found, which is why the whole behavior confuses me...


Feh, I just dont get it.  Always feel like with games like SC they should call it something other than that, since the "strategy" aspect is VERY different from what could ACTUALLY be called "strategy" games.

Wheras something like AI War or Supreme Commander back in the day makes alot more sense to me.  Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series. 
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: WingedKagouti on September 08, 2014, 07:43:11 AM
Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series.
SupCom2 happened.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 08, 2014, 12:25:56 PM
Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series.
SupCom2 happened.

Yup and that killed the series. SupCom 1 with the expansion and the most recent up-to-date balance mods is an incredibly impressive game but I doubt it'll ever continue.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 08, 2014, 12:27:21 PM
In many ways PA is the continuation of supreme commander.  The closest we're likely to see to it, anyway.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 08, 2014, 01:49:28 PM
In many ways PA is the continuation of supreme commander.  The closest we're likely to see to it, anyway.

Sup com had more than 1 race though... in fact it had.. 3 and they were pretty diverse ;) So it's more like a "casual" version of sup com. But then I look at maps that are spherical and it's too hardcore even for me... I never thought I said this, but I can't handle spherical battlemaps :/

Also I have other issues with the game (Namely the abysmal GUI).... there are TONS of UI issues) ... don't make me list them ;P I think with mods it can be a decent game. But 1 race and no experimentals is very boring imo. Also I just can't get over the fact that I can't upgrade my commander. I loved that in SC1

(Disclaimer: I backed this game, so I have a right to be miffed ;p) I backed it expecting the continuation of sup com. But maybe that was illusionary considering how much money SC1 cost to make.

From my Kickstarter projects so far, 1 is ok with a but (D:OS), 1 is meh until mods (PA), and 1 is still not out (PoE) not a good run. But D:OS at least made me happy. PA doesn't for some reason.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 08, 2014, 05:18:03 PM
Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series.
SupCom2 happened.
As far as I know, Supcom 2 trumped the original in sales by a large margin. It also received very positive reviews in general, including being labeled the co-op game of the year by several notable gaming sites.

It seems like there's this cult fanbase that pretends Supcom 1 was some successful or revolutionary title for the genre, and I hate to break it to those people but it wasn't. It really didn't do much, 20 years later, that Total Annihilation hadn't already accomplished. The resource requirements were absolutely insane, so that 75% of the potential playerbase couldn't even use it, and the game itself was kind of an unorganized mess, the story was lackluster, the multiplayer was buggy and laggy. It just wasn't a great game, even with the standalone FA expansion. It didn't tread anywhere new or do anything particularly well.

Supcom 2 wasn't all that revolutionary either, but 5 years later it had graphics which trumped the original and were about 75% less resource intensive. The "research tree" was also a nice touch and had never been attempted in the ground-based RTS genre, at least as a resource in a fast-paced setting (4Xes are completely different). It's true, the game left a lot to be desired, and deviated further from the original TA even more than the first game did, but I overall I thought it was pretty solid.

In other words, don't blame SupCom 2 for the failure of the series, if the first game was any good they wouldn't have even needed a sequel. The first game was a disaster, much more so than the second.

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 08, 2014, 05:33:47 PM
Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series.
SupCom2 happened.
    SupCom2 happened.
As far as I know, Supcom 2 trumped the original in sales by a large margin. It also received very positive reviews in general, including being labeled the co-op game of the year by several notable gaming sites.

It seems like there's this cult fanbase that pretends Supcom 1 was some successful or revolutionary title for the genre, and I hate to break it to those people but it wasn't. It really didn't do much, 20 years later, that Total Annihilation hadn't already accomplished. The resource requirements were absolutely insane, so that 75% of the potential playerbase couldn't even use it, and the game itself was kind of an unorganized mess, the story was lackluster, the multiplayer was buggy and laggy. It just wasn't a great game, even with the standalone FA expansion. It didn't tread anywhere new or do anything particularly well.

Supcom 2 wasn't all that revolutionary either, but 5 years later it had graphics which trumped the original and were about 75% less resource intensive. The "research tree" was also a nice touch and had never been attempted in the ground-based RTS genre, at least as a resource in a fast-paced setting (4Xes are completely different). It's true, the game left a lot to be desired, and deviated further from the original TA even more than the first game did, but I overall I thought it was pretty solid.

In other words, don't blame SupCom 2 for the failure of the series, if the first game was any good they wouldn't have even needed a sequel. The first game was a disaster, much more so than the second.

From what I read, supcom 2 solved "problems" that fans of the orginal didn't consider problems, including supreme commander's 1's unique resource structure. In other words, supreme commander 2 tried to be more mainstream, and in the process alienated the orginal's fanbase but really didn't attract players who were not a fan of the first one.

By most measures, supcom 2 got worst reception than the first one. Meta critic gives it a 9 point drops from "mainstream" sites, and 21 points from user reviews. But let us disregard reviews, this very game (planetary annihilation) draws homage from supreme commander, not supreme commander 2. Secondary measures: 3 years after supreme commander 1 was released, supreme commander 2 was released. 4 years after supreme commander 2 was released, there is 0 coverage of a supreme commander 3.

From a critical, evolutionary, and commerical standpoint, supreme commander 1 thrashes supreme commander 2.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: WingedKagouti on September 08, 2014, 07:55:12 PM
Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series.
SupCom2 happened.
As far as I know, Supcom 2 trumped the original in sales by a large margin. It also received very positive reviews in general, including being labeled the co-op game of the year by several notable gaming sites.
If SupCom 2 was such a massive success, we would have heard more from the series. SupCom spawned an expansion with a 4th faction and a sequel. SupCom 2 got a piece of DLC.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 08, 2014, 10:44:31 PM
I can almost guarantee you that SupCom 2 did better in the market than did the first game. It didn't do spectacularly well mind you, but neither of them did, otherwise Chris Taylor wouldn't be out of a job as a game developer.

I remember hearing something about this on the GPG forums, so I'll go back and ask again. I'm just saying, the first game wasn't really much to praise either.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 08, 2014, 11:01:51 PM
I can almost guarantee you that SupCom 2 did better in the market than did the first game. It didn't do spectacularly well mind you, but neither of them did, otherwise Chris Taylor wouldn't be out of a job as a game developer.

I remember hearing something about this on the GPG forums, so I'll go back and ask again. I'm just saying, the first game wasn't really much to praise either.

All I shall do is repeat what I said earlier:

Is there a supreme commander 3? Do new games aspire to continue supreme command 2? Do viewers consider Supreme Commander 2 to be a natural evolution of Supreme Commander or Total Annihilation?

Does Planetary Annihilation view Supreme Commander 2 a good model to follow?

If Supreme Commander 1 was bad , there would be no 2. Planetary Annihilation wouldn't mention them, either.  You don't make sequels to games which don't make money, and you certainly don't make kickstarters about them.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 08, 2014, 11:21:46 PM
Quote
All I shall do is repeat what I said earlier:

Is there a supreme commander 3?
This is a bad argument. This argument implies that any game which never received a sequel, or a second sequel, are automatically bad games for that reason. There are hundreds of a reasons a good game could have never received a sequel, and if you want to argue that every game that didn't sucks by proxy, you are, by definition, saying that most games suck.

I could just as easily turn the argument around and say that a game which receives a sequel so soon after the release of the first is proof that the first game was awful and needed to be revamped.

Games like DotA and Starcraft 1 which receive sequels 15+ years after they were made do it because the software they use was antiquated and created for a different time. There's really no excuse for making a sequel within a few years of the original unless the game is a flop...

Quote
Does Planetary Annihilation view Supreme Commander 2 a good model to follow?
Another fallacy. The developers are constantly talking about making a sequel to Total Annihilation, not Supreme Commander. Total Annihilation is the standard by which the bar is set, not SC. The fact that Supreme Commander had so much in common with TA is only proof that TA was a great game, not vice versa. Maybe you haven't noticed, but it's called "Planetary Annihilation" not "Planetary Commander".

Quote
If Supreme Commander 1 was bad , there would be no 2.
Just horrible argument. HORRIBLE. Left 4 Dead 1 left a lot to be desired (bad), Diablo 1 was okay but had a lot of room for improvement. I could give you dozens of examples of games in which the sequel fixed the problems with the first game. Hell, Arcen has done it. Your argument just fails on so many levels, I don't even know why I'm still addressing it.

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 08, 2014, 11:32:22 PM
There's really no excuse for making a sequel within a few years of the original unless the game is a flop...

That is some really serious business logic, making a sequel because the orginal is a flop...

Can you give, using buisness logic, a reason why a flop gets a sequel? Why a company would invest more risk, time, and resources toward a failure whose value is based upon "you enjoyed the first product, you will enjoy the sequel"?

I'm not having to prove the counter here, that a good game needs a sequel. I'm only saying that a business failure does not get a sequel.


Not all good games get a sequel. But almost all sequels need a good base game, or do you have an example where this isn't objective true?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 08, 2014, 11:37:37 PM
Another fallacy. The developers are constantly talking about making a sequel to Total Annihilation, not Supreme Commander. Total Annihilation is the standard by which the bar is set, not SC. The fact that Supreme Commander had so much in common with TA is only proof that TA was a great game, not vice versa. Maybe you haven't noticed, but it's called "Planetary Annihilation" not "Planetary Commander".

From the ubernet/ pa page:

"Built by the same engineers who built the Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander rendering engines."

If Supreme Commander was really so bad, would they mention it on their front page? Would they mention Supreme Commander 4 times on their kickstarter page, every time they mentioned Total Annihilation?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 08, 2014, 11:45:10 PM
Just horrible argument. HORRIBLE. Left 4 Dead 1 left a lot to be desired (bad), Diablo 1 was okay but had a lot of room for improvement. I could give you dozens of examples of games in which the sequel fixed the problems with the first game. Hell, Arcen has done it. Your argument just fails on so many levels, I don't even know why I'm still addressing it.


Give me ONE example where an Arcen title fundamentally changed a base game not because they viewed it as an error. The closest was A Valley Without Wind. And guess what? That game was free if you paid for the first game. It was in practice a free uber DLC. They added the "2" because it was not compatible with "1" and even they said it was done as a courtesy for the fans of 1.

DLC is NOT a sequel, and if you think it is, you are the one failing, and I feel sorry for you, I'm not so arrogant to address it. A sequel is a whole new game, otherwise you would have to pay for game 1 to pay game 2. But it isn't.

You still have failed to address why, if sequels are so...natural? Then why is there none for Supreme Commander 3? If everyone does it, why has this game not? It must be especially bad if everyone does it, but Suprmeme Commander 2 did not generate a sequel, nor new content.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 09, 2014, 02:35:09 AM
Just horrible argument. HORRIBLE. Left 4 Dead 1 left a lot to be desired (bad), Diablo 1 was okay but had a lot of room for improvement. I could give you dozens of examples of games in which the sequel fixed the problems with the first game. Hell, Arcen has done it. Your argument just fails on so many levels, I don't even know why I'm still addressing it.

L4D1 wasn't great but it was still successful and popular. Diablo 1, same thing. They weren't given pity sequels to make them better, they had sales to back them up AFAIK. Though granted, Valve does things its own way so L4D2 might have been made regardless. Supreme Commander has a very potent modding scene and plenty of players still in it to this day. Checking Steam stats, both Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance and Supreme Commander 2 have around the same number of people playing either regularly. (200 give or take 10 daily). That doesn't count non-Steam versions but it's still a good stat. So, if SupCom1 Expansion was so bad, why do people continue playing it?

As far as why SupCom 3 didn't happen, the RTS market fell off HARD around the time of SupCom 2 and continues to be a fairly stagnant genre. For the most part, Real-Time-Strategy games aren't a selling market. Obviously, we have exceptions that are doing well but it isn't as popular as the DOTA/MOBA scene, Grand Strategy/4X/Turn-based or the FPS market. I mean, the most notable AAA game produced recently was Company of Heroes 2 from a now dead publisher. I'm curious to see how well PA does but I guess getting hard sales figures will take a long time unless Uber is an open company in this regard.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 09, 2014, 05:14:08 AM
Quote
So, if SupCom1 Expansion was so bad, why do people continue playing it?
I never said SupCom 1 was bad (or if I implied that I apologize). Simply that it wasn't the savior of the RTS genre or any kind of revolutionary game, and had just as much to do with the failures of the series as did the second game. It had its own set of problems. The second attempted to address those problems, and did in some ways, but also created other problems in the process.

Chemical Art just doesn't seem to understand Chris Taylor's business model or way of doing things, because creating a sequel for a failed (or at least below expectations game) is basically something he has a history of doing. It's one of the reasons he no longer develops games to my knowledge.

x4000 has already admitted that it was a business mistake to offer AVWW2 as a free DLC to the purchasers of the original game. However, I don't think anybody is under the illusion that Arcen was happy with how the first game was received, and that the second game wasn't in direct response to that.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 09, 2014, 09:09:30 AM
I dunno if we need to keep debating Supcom 1 vs 2, but if you're having fun with that then have at it ;)

FWIW, if AVWW1 had accomplished our goals for it we would not have made Valley2 so soon after.  Honestly Valley2 didn't accomplish those goals either, though each game has provided a lot of fun for some number of folks so I'm glad we made them.

That aside, I don't think it necessarily follows that "Game X got a sequel 2 years later" means "Game X was fundamentally flawed" or whatever.  That's a possibility, but overall it's just more complex than that.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on September 09, 2014, 09:16:45 AM
Before anyone starts screaming at one another: I think it's worth keeping in mind with all of this that there's plenty that's REALLY subjective.


The whole TA vs SupCom thing, for instance.

There's a couple of things to keep in mind with that.

For alot of people, SupCom WAS revolutionary.  REALLY revolutionary.   Now, the arguement I'm seeing is "No it isnt, TA had already done this stuff", but there's one really major factor that needs to be kept in mind:  Time.   TA was released back in 1997.  Supcom was in 2007.  That's an entire 10 years difference.... and in this industry, that's a *very* long time.  And you know how PC gamers often are... if it's old, either A: it's not relevant to them any more, or B: they have no idea it exists.  So for many, SupCom comes along and is suddenly doing things that the RTS genre as a whole just was not doing at all (and the genre overall seemed to have alot of games in it back then).   Hell, *I* hadnt ever heard of TA.  All I knew was suddenly here was this RTS that actively avoided pretty much ALL of the problems I'd constantly had with the genre.   I bought it, and I wasnt at all disappointed.  Hell, it's still pretty much THE game of that type that I remember the most fondly.  As far as I'm concerned, the first game to challenge that spot for me that it has is actually AI War, which I only started on very recently.

There were glitches and such with multiplayer, but.... that one is really hard to quantify, in terms of what effect it had on it.  My experience with alot of online games around that time was that ALOT of them could get weird.  Glitchy or laggy or whatever.  Not to mention, there was a large group that bought it just for the singleplayer, which is often pretty unusual with that genre.  That game did it very well, whereas I cannot always say that about most other games in that genre.  Usually, it's a genre that's geared more towards multiplayer for many fans, and that game was a rarity in that regard.  That matches could be REALLY long also furthered this.


Regarding the sequels and such, the high sales of the second game doesnt necessarily have as much impact on the probability of the third game as you might think.  There's LOTS of things that go into the decision-making with such a thing.  Alot of people have this misconception that sales numbers of the previous product are the be-all end-all to this.  It's not.  It's only one of many factors, really.  And that second game had.... issues.  I cannot remember what they were exactly, but the one really major thing I remember about the second one was that it rather lacked impact.  It didn't stay relevant very long once it had released.  And there was something really off about it.... I cannot remember exactly what that was.  Even I, a huge fan of the first, sorta had a "meh" reaction to the second, and I didn't stick with it.  What players think of a game AFTER they buy it is a really huge thing that publishers HAVE to consider, as publishers cannot just rest on their laurels after a given release.  They HAVE to already have started planning for whatever they do next, and a player that got excited for and bought a game but didn't LIKE it (or didn't find enough replay value or something in a game they expected to have alot of) is NOT a happy player, and is much more likely to abandon that developer/publisher than anyone else. Those who simply decided not to buy it, instead of buying it and disliking it, are likely to keep on with that publisher if they already liked some of their stuff in general, instead of abandoning out of anger.   So even a game that sells well can do some nasty damage when considered over time, because it can negatively affect FUTURE sales.  And while I seriously just do not remember the reasons, that game really did just lose it's relevancy really fast, unlike the first.

Also, timeframes for sequels... why am I even seeing that in arguements here?  There's LOTS of examples of it going both ways.  Either games getting a sequel real fast, or taking a zillion years to get one.  There's too many reasons for either to happen, and again, it's not all to do with sales numbers.   And it's worth keeping in mind that yes, expansion packs actually do count here.  On consoles, sequels are a way of giving fans of a game/franchise more of what they want, while generating further money for the developer/publisher.  That's the true point of sequels.... but it's ALSO the true point of expansions.  The fact that PCs make games capable of having expansions means that expansions will typically come first, but it's pretty much the same thing.  A popular-as-heck game will get expansions FAST.  In the console world, this would be a sequel being made, not an expansion.  It's almost a matter of semantics, to a point.  Of course, that's all up to the devs and publisher. There are those that, on PC, will indeed go for a sequel instead of an expansion, even if they're doing it real fast after the previous game. My point being that there's just so much to consider with this aspect of it.... it doesnt really bear arguing over.


Really, NONE of this bears arguing over, if you ask me.  All of this bit with sequels and sales and blah blah blah doesnt have much to do with wether Planetary Annihilation, the focus of this topic, is a good game or not, or any aspects of it, really.  Inspired by TA, maybe.  That's it's connection to this stuff in the past  But does it matter THAT much?  All that matters is the current state of THIS game, I think. 
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 09, 2014, 09:44:17 AM
I want to just say that I agree with Misery, if you want to debate finer points of SC/SC2 and sequels then make a topic for that. PA is not SC, and it's NOTHING LIKE SC, it is however made by the people who made the SC1 engine, not by the people who designed the SC races or by the artist who made SC1 or SC2 (as you can clearly tell, PA doesn't have an art-style, it has models textured with flat color textures that have white "grunge" shading at polygon borders, that's so lame and lazy I was tempted to call them out on it on their forum. ;)

If it were anything like SC, it would be a game were turtling is a legitimate option and where APM matters not, but PA does not have shields, it does not have proper tier 3 attack structures. Turtling is not an option because (absurdly) orbital engineers can build teleporters on the ground in less than 1 minute. Meaning there is no way to defend a planet properly.

And worst of all, if you refocus on a planet, all icons blend out on other planets. Meaning unless you fancy a TINY pip you can't even see when something happens on your homeworld. You can't see units in orbital transfers if you are zoomed in (the icons literally don't display). You can not do template builds. For defenses. There is no way to upgrade the commander or to tech up naturally alá SC2.

Worst of all, the lack of shield gens and tier 3 means games are spammy. Spam infinite build order on a factory tier 2 unit, spam spam more spam. And have them fight somewhere. The game ending tier 3 system completely misses from PA.

I am not happy with how this KS turned out to be honest ,/

Ps.: And top it off, instead of using the FANTASTIC flow-pathing from SC2 they made their own that barely works. Units don't move out of the way when a building is queued where they park etc... grml!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 09, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
SupCom 2 did have wonderful pathing, if anything.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 09, 2014, 10:29:41 AM
SupCom 2 did have wonderful pathing, if anything.
Overcoming a very notable obstacle to the goal of AIs everywhere (https://what-if.xkcd.com/5/).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 09, 2014, 01:04:15 PM
I want to just say that I agree with Misery, if you want to debate finer points of SC/SC2 and sequels then make a topic for that. PA is not SC, and it's NOTHING LIKE SC, it is however made by the people who made the SC1 engine, not by the people who designed the SC races or by the artist who made SC1 or SC2 (as you can clearly tell, PA doesn't have an art-style, it has models textured with flat color textures that have white "grunge" shading at polygon borders, that's so lame and lazy I was tempted to call them out on it on their forum. ;)

This is the one thing I don't get about PA and would be a legit complaint by me: why was the art style just so....basic. When I saw the KS, I figured that artwork was a work in progress but instead it seems like it was the final form and that was it. Really? Not that I require pretty graphics all the time but something more than that would have been nice.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 09, 2014, 01:23:41 PM
I want to just say that I agree with Misery, if you want to debate finer points of SC/SC2 and sequels then make a topic for that. PA is not SC, and it's NOTHING LIKE SC, it is however made by the people who made the SC1 engine, not by the people who designed the SC races or by the artist who made SC1 or SC2 (as you can clearly tell, PA doesn't have an art-style, it has models textured with flat color textures that have white "grunge" shading at polygon borders, that's so lame and lazy I was tempted to call them out on it on their forum. ;)

This is the one thing I don't get about PA and would be a legit complaint by me: why was the art style just so....basic. When I saw the KS, I figured that artwork was a work in progress but instead it seems like it was the final form and that was it. Really? Not that I require pretty graphics all the time but something more than that would have been nice.

It's even more jarring when you know how this texture is made. I am not kidding when I say that this is LAZY. No honest artist would ever create something like that and call it done (or textured). polygon-unwrapping and outlining is not texturing. And literally all a grunge border at the polygon boundary is, is unwrapped polygons (which you can do automatically via tool) and then -> Draw outline with brush. I don't mind clean textures, but clean textures can have details, dirt and stuff on them. Games don't need visual fluff to the extreme, but PA looks nearly entirely untextured. Even the planets. (Lava etc.)

Maybe it's the "curse" of being an artist, but I find that even more unacceptable than the tons of GUI issues (like how double clicking on a "unit icon" does not select all units of a type, no you have to click on the unit model, even when zoomed out. (Argh!!!!!) ;/
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 11, 2014, 04:19:01 AM
It's even more jarring when you know how this texture is made. I am not kidding when I say that this is LAZY. No honest artist would ever create something like that and call it done (or textured). polygon-unwrapping and outlining is not texturing. And literally all a grunge border at the polygon boundary is, is unwrapped polygons (which you can do automatically via tool) and then -> Draw outline with brush. I don't mind clean textures, but clean textures can have details, dirt and stuff on them. Games don't need visual fluff to the extreme, but PA looks nearly entirely untextured. Even the planets. (Lava etc.)

I'm not an artist by any stretch, and it doesn't bother me much, looking at screenshots and videos. It seems like a lot of the game is played zoomed out pretty far.  >D Then again, I don't intend to buy the game for a good long time, it's hard to be bothered by anything about it.

Anyway, how are you going to get dirt on a unit that's literally built and destroyed within about fifteen minutes? Hell, why even paint 'em? Just spray a big X on it, it'll be dead soon and we'll need to identify the corpse as one of ours.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 11, 2014, 09:03:40 AM
It's even more jarring when you know how this texture is made. I am not kidding when I say that this is LAZY. No honest artist would ever create something like that and call it done (or textured). polygon-unwrapping and outlining is not texturing. And literally all a grunge border at the polygon boundary is, is unwrapped polygons (which you can do automatically via tool) and then -> Draw outline with brush. I don't mind clean textures, but clean textures can have details, dirt and stuff on them. Games don't need visual fluff to the extreme, but PA looks nearly entirely untextured. Even the planets. (Lava etc.)

I'm not an artist by any stretch, and it doesn't bother me much, looking at screenshots and videos. It seems like a lot of the game is played zoomed out pretty far.  >D Then again, I don't intend to buy the game for a good long time, it's hard to be bothered by anything about it.

Anyway, how are you going to get dirt on a unit that's literally built and destroyed within about fifteen minutes? Hell, why even paint 'em? Just spray a big X on it, it'll be dead soon and we'll need to identify the corpse as one of ours.

Hehe, well with that argument you might a well just release games untextured in the (actually kinda neat) greyscale look that AO + default shader gives you. ;p

But since I backed this game I just expected more. ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 11, 2014, 12:21:59 PM
I actually like the art style, but I'm assuming the reason it's so simplified is to save resources for the user. Obviously on a game of this (unparalleled) scale, I'm assuming they have to take every shortcut to put less of a load on a user's machine. When you consider that we're having to create "ultra low cap" settings for games with graphics like AI War, I don't think it should come as a surprise to anybody that the textures and art style of PA would be basic.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 11, 2014, 09:14:00 PM
It actually makes zero difference to performance whether your model's texture is flatly colored or highly detailed, it takes the same amount of VRAM ;) And when you have low-poly units because yes, that impacts performance, then it's imo pure laziness not to make proper textures to counter-balance that and give them something to tell them apart. End result is I can literally not tell any unit in PA apart. Everything a giant blur of 1 color with no definition.. I actually have to hover units to see the hint text to know what I am even selecting there.

And in RTS games style should never come before substance. Telling apart units in a fire-fight is vital...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 12, 2014, 03:59:27 AM
Admittedly I know very little about this (what taxes your video hardware), that just seems like the most logical explanation to me.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 12, 2014, 04:34:24 AM
And usually its the CPU that's the bottleneck, not the GPU. Especially with that many units out on the field.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Teal_Blue on September 12, 2014, 03:11:16 PM
As of 09/12/2014 at 3:09PM - Planetary Annihilation thread has 33 pages and 23,633 views.
Think it's popular much?

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 12, 2014, 04:11:01 PM
As of 09/12/2014 at 3:09PM - Planetary Annihilation thread has 33 pages and 23,633 views.
Think it's popular much?

And?....

(Doesn't see what relevance this has to the thread atm).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 12, 2014, 05:43:35 PM
I'm only seeing 10 pages anyway.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 12, 2014, 05:50:48 PM
Perhaps the other 23 encountered an asteroid in a dark alley.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 13, 2014, 10:44:57 AM
This was posted 10 days ago on UberEnt forums:
Quote
Player: Brad, can we please get an answer on the questions about the server. I know it would alleviate strain on the servers. Are we looking at more than a week after release?

Brad: i don't know what you're talking about, actually. what's up?

Player: I mean offline/LAN/player hosted servers.

Brad: those are coming shortly after launch. lots of work, lots of preparing, lots of worrying about edge cases still.
So at least they haven't backed off on their promise even though I feel it kinda strange that they didn't include it in the release.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 13, 2014, 12:29:42 PM
Ugh... this game annoys the holy crap out of me

50 minutes play-time, this is what my ENEMY AI built (me + ai vs 2 AI's, all on "Normal" whatever that means) Sidenote: my AI was of the "wtf I pwn you" kind, as it was nearly as powerful as I was it just didn't go orbital for some reason, and didn't go tier 2 either. But it built orbital defense cannons everywhere.

(http://i.imgur.com/lRvyhgyl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/lRvyhgy)

And this is what happens when you try to move a big formation of units to there (fps dips below 10) and after the AI died it took another 10 minutes for ALL UNITS TO ACTUALLY GET THERE.

(http://i.imgur.com/Q8drAG1l.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Q8drAG1)

So this released right? This isn't some in-side joke and we are still playing Alpha, right?

Gah!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 13, 2014, 05:36:25 PM
I'm not experienced with this game yet, can you tell me what about those pictures upset you?

also: I miss mini-maps.  ;)

edit: if you mean "this is all the AI built and then they just died," then lol
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 13, 2014, 05:53:36 PM
edit: if you mean "this is all the AI built and then they just died," then lol

Yeah, that ;)

Also maybe you over-read the part where "commanding my units" to actually attack the AFK AI dipped my fps below 15 ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 13, 2014, 08:08:17 PM
@Eraser where did you get all those awesome unit icons? The ones that come stock with the game are really bland.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 13, 2014, 08:38:49 PM
@Eraser where did you get all those awesome unit icons? The ones that come stock with the game are really bland.

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/wip-the-realm-community-balance-mod.58942/

If you get PAMM (the PA mod manager) there is an optional UI mod called "Realm Community UI mod" ;) which co-exists with that rebalance mod, but also works stand-alone.

This was literally the first thing that bothered me.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 13, 2014, 09:51:56 PM
Any idea if the UI mod can be used in regular games? Or would there be compatibility issues?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 13, 2014, 09:56:53 PM
Any idea if the UI mod can be used in regular games? Or would there be compatibility issues?

Actually I have no idea.. I don't even understand what the difference is with the mods in this game.. UI mod, Server Mod? You should probably ask in the forums at Uber ;)



Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 13, 2014, 11:24:16 PM
Any idea if the UI mod can be used in regular games? Or would there be compatibility issues?

If, and this is a major IF, it works like World of Warcraft's modding, it will work in regular games. Mostly because the changes are on your client and nothing goes to the server.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 14, 2014, 04:06:26 AM
How is the balance mod? I looked at their manifesto and I was pretty impressed at some of the design philosophies. Specifically making "space combat" more interesting and making defensive options more viable.

It's kind of sad because in Total Annihilation there were some defenses that were so powerful they could literally rip apart armies like of pudding, defensive strategies were actually viable in certain situations. In this game defenses are kind of a joke unfortunately, and while turtling has never been my favorite strategy, it's sad to see such an interesting mechanic become obsolete.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 14, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
Complains about bugs -> Uses mods. I'm sorry but lol. You can't really complain about the game behaving strangely if you are already modding it. Modding almost always brings with it strange side effects, particularly on the side of the AI.


Personally I've seen none of the issues you mention aside from slight FPS slowdowns with massive unit numbers. So...just saying that Erasers experience is hardly the only one.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 14, 2014, 04:44:27 AM
I also haven't had the experiences Eraser is having either. I've used the AI many times and they consistently use T2 and play pretty intelligently. That's been my experience with it. Perhaps the mods are doing something.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 14, 2014, 05:24:37 AM
In addition, I hardly feel defenses are pointless. The "tier 3" defensive laser tower is BRUTAL at mopping up entire armies, provided it gets a chance to actually fire (that is, isn't getting swamped by a bajillion units or taken out at range). Walls and a good setup of defensive towers definitely are viable.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 14, 2014, 06:45:17 AM
My only complaint is that most of the defense towers have WAY too short range to be viable really.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 14, 2014, 12:34:35 PM
to be fair, mods can not affect the AI in such way for it get stuck in PA. At least not for now. But you both can't know that.

Obviously mods can cause issues.. I just wanted to show that there are problems with this "release" with pathfinding and the AI/performance ;) If you play Skirmish. For some reason in GW the AI is downright brutal. But in the 1 skirmish I played I experienced the above problem.

And playing without that balance mod is not an option. As you say, the ranges are too short. Balance mod boosts ranges. It does not affect any AI related functions of the ai cmd (the way mods work in this you can't do that anyway, only when offline play is available can mods overwrite fundamental AI functions).

Part of the reason I mentioned PA pathfinding issues is because I saw how it works correctly in Sup Com 2 just a few minutes previously ;)

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 14, 2014, 12:37:45 PM
Maybe the AI in that game had a spotty internet connection ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 14, 2014, 12:47:21 PM
Actually using balance mods is a really good way to completely make an AI go bonkers. I've had that happen lots in SupCom, for instance.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 14, 2014, 01:29:52 PM
Actually using balance mods is a really good way to completely make an AI go bonkers. I've had that happen lots in SupCom, for instance.

Yeah in mostly any cases I'd agree, but with PA and the way it runs the entire game logic on it's server you would have to REALLY try to break the AI, and this mod didn't cause that. ;P It literally only affects stats.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 14, 2014, 02:31:55 PM
And if the stats are off, that would give the AI issues, if it's not hardwired to build specific units, regardless of stats.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 14, 2014, 05:53:04 PM
The fact that the AI works fine most of the time would point to other issues though ;) I just had an interesting game against brutal AI's where all 3 AI's worked exceptionally well with mod, so this is a uber issue that only happens SOME times.

Firstly, about 13 minutes in the first nuke fell, killing my retarded AI ally instantly. Despite the fact that there wasn't any sat in orbit the missile aimed perfectly at the cmd (and then at mine, but I survived because I was running to my missile protection) how the AI knew where to aim I do not know. I checked in replay and it had no information on that spot.

Secondly, I tested throwing a planet at another planet, and whover coded that system was a RETARD. So how does it work? Well easy, you build as many thrusters as are displayed in the overview the planet needs. Once done, you press "annihilate with" after which it makes you select the planet you want to hit. All fine so far, the problem is this. It does not tell you what absurd orbital path the game will use, and this means you have absolutely NO INDICATION where it will travel.

Bottom line, the planet hit my own planet despite that being impossible to tell from the aiming screen (the games orbits make zero sense when you have played KSP too much ;p) this was game-ending, because it hit my cmd... so yeah. With no way to tell that it was going to do that, and no way to SEE where it was going before giving the order this is the absolute dumbest system I ever so far found in the game.

Well, at least until that happened the game was pretty fun. For once I had no issues and the balance mod works fabulously ;) That the game does not tell you that you are about to throw a planet at yourself (because the orbit magically intersects) and not at the target is pretty low.

But at least it showed some of the potential this game has in skirmish.

Ps.: After more tests I found the reason for the AI problem... apparently if you set the AI on NORMAL the AI can get dead-locked because it builds no factories or the delay to build one is so large that by the time the AI wants to build something it checks whether it needs more mines and builds that instead and then gets locked up again. I could now play 2 games with working AI setting AI on "Hard" very weird issue.

Against hard AI it's also much harder to actually amass 1000 units ;p But I still dislike the orbital control scheme. It's super confusing to rotate around the poles of a planet. And there is no proper mini-map. I find the PiP is only useful to quickly get from A to B to A. And there are "camera" bookmarks that help as well, but when it comes down to it I wish we could have flat maps again ,)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 17, 2014, 10:29:06 PM
I generally buy games based on two things: forum recommendations and (for better or worse), based on what RPS says about it. The review is in: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/17/planetary-annihilation-review/

I generally like these reviews because they're slightly more verbose than what I have patience to read, and because they generally represent a slightly foppish version of my own Video Games Personality. The significance of the first is that if I read the entire review, then it means I'm pretty darn interested in the game.

Based on this review, I'll probably buy the game when it gets really, really cheap, and if the DRM measures work for me. I'm not very interested in multiplayer versus on it, unless the comp stomp is compelling. It looks like the fairly hollow, cold personality of Total Annihilation continues here (it's like playing with Tonka trucks, that when you look inside the cabs, they are empty), which is unfortunate, but AI War isn't exactly bursting with personality and it's a game I really love--but has the added advantage of being designed from the ground up to take on human opponents rather than pitting them against each other.

I'm looking forward to whatever mods the community produces. This looks like an Important Game.

Quote that best states how I'll probably feel about the game:
Quote
Planetary Annihilation is a slick, modernised RTS, engineered from the ground up to appeal to the fast-paced, competitive, hotkey-loving esports crowd. For people like me, it is a bruising gauntlet of defeat. But even I can see the appeal.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 18, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
Can, btw, confirm that it IS the balance mod that breaks the AI. I've never had the AI stall even once. Today I installed the balance mod to test it, and 5 out of 6 AIs stalled completely. They built a few extractors and few power plants then just stood there. One of them continued, partly I think because I was so close to it that it was forced into a fight, circumventing the freeze.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 18, 2014, 01:54:32 PM
if( !can_cheese_incredibly_short_ranged_defenses ) { TakeBallAndGoHome(); }
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 18, 2014, 02:11:21 PM
Quote
Planetary Annihilation is a slick, modernised RTS, engineered from the ground up to appeal to the fast-paced, competitive, hotkey-loving esports crowd. For people like me, it is a bruising gauntlet of defeat. But even I can see the appeal.
I'm not sure what to tell that reviewer. If 20 commands per minute, or 1 command every 3 seconds, seems too strenuous, he might want to stick to TBS games or playing Checkers with his grandma. Perhaps there is a learning curve in terms of where to devote your time and resources (it comes easier for me having played Total Annihilation my whole life), but I promise you, heavy micromanagement, at least relative to the RTS standard, is not something this game requires to be a decent player. I don't even think you can compare it to SC2 where 200APM is a completely normal thing within the realm of competitive play. With literally 1/20th of that you can be a decent player in PA.

I'd love to find an RTS which realistically requires less than 20 actions per minute in order to be a decent player, but which was still interesting, engaging, and competitive. If you know of one, please point me in that direction.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 18, 2014, 02:47:20 PM
Can, btw, confirm that it IS the balance mod that breaks the AI. I've never had the AI stall even once. Today I installed the balance mod to test it, and 5 out of 6 AIs stalled completely. They built a few extractors and few power plants then just stood there. One of them continued, partly I think because I was so close to it that it was forced into a fight, circumventing the freeze.

Yeah it turns out that can actually happen with mods after all, rebalance mod changes prices and AI's are apparently hard-coded to only build stuff in relation to their economy (they don't use res to the limit like players do) so this is fixed if you play on any difficulty above Normal and with at least 1.5 handicap. Currently it's a total clusterfuck when it comes to modding, despite Uber promising SDK on release, there is no SDK and no Offline play. Mods literally have to send stats to servers and hope the servers don't choke on it. Currently however they do seem to choke on certain eco balance stats. (Yes yes, I was wrong ,p)

Either way, I just had the game disconnect me on my last GW battle (5 enemy ai's, i had killed 4.. it was a nuke heavy match ;p) this game just depresses the holy moses out of me. I can't believe they actually released this. Server crashes in SP what.. the.. actual.. f....

no match-making, no ranked ladder so that one can play against people on equal skill level either. What is the point playing this? either it's noobs or it's pro's. there is no in-between. :(
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 18, 2014, 02:49:45 PM
In my opinion it's a failiure of time frames. I believe they set a timeframe for release and had physical launches in mind and simply didn't have the time to finish it. Because as "released" as it is, it sure as hell ain't "finished".


All I'm hoping for is that they fix it damn fast. Because I've seen other great games disappear to obscurity by such things (Demigod, for instance).
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 18, 2014, 02:57:17 PM
The PA Stats mod has a matchmaking system of some sorts, last I checked.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 18, 2014, 03:14:10 PM
Yea, there are several indications that PA is another example that "games don't get released, they escape".

Not that I, as one of the developers of AVWW1, can throw any stones on that one ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 18, 2014, 08:31:20 PM
Quote
Planetary Annihilation is a slick, modernised RTS, engineered from the ground up to appeal to the fast-paced, competitive, hotkey-loving esports crowd. For people like me, it is a bruising gauntlet of defeat. But even I can see the appeal.
I'm not sure what to tell that reviewer. If 20 commands per minute, or 1 command every 3 seconds, seems too strenuous, he might want to stick to TBS games or playing Checkers with his grandma. Perhaps there is a learning curve in terms of where to devote your time and resources (it comes easier for me having played Total Annihilation my whole life), but I promise you, heavy micromanagement, at least relative to the RTS standard, is not something this game requires to be a decent player. I don't even think you can compare it to SC2 where 200APM is a completely normal thing within the realm of competitive play. With literally 1/20th of that you can be a decent player in PA.

I'd love to find an RTS which realistically requires less than 20 actions per minute in order to be a decent player, but which was still interesting, engaging, and competitive. If you know of one, please point me in that direction.

I'm a pretty regular player of RTSes and even PA seems intense since you have to watch not only:

1) Your ground/air forces but
2) Space Forces
3) Multiple Planets
4) Multiple scoutings
5) Figure out what to build/counter build all while doing the above things.

It's a lot of different levels that I'm not used to watching as an RTS player and can be overwhelming. Compared to SC2, you are only watching one field and that's easier to concentrate and focus your attention on. Yes, I do have PA now. Blame a certain friend of mine for being far too generous who is also a sadistic jerk that wants to ruin whatever free time I have left *coughs*. My initial matches have been really rough, it's hard for me to figure out optimal plays when I have to watch so many different places at once. So, I can imagine the reviewer having a tough time with all of the stuff he has to pay attention to. Keep also in mind that his opinion is important to those that may not be as RTS-savy and may want to know how slow/fast paced it is. As a casual reviewer, it's something I keep in mind as well, the thoughts/wants of my audience.


Granted, I've been out of RTS playing this summer so maybe that isn't helping me. I've been planning on rejoining the AI War scene later this month/next month.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 18, 2014, 08:58:40 PM
I'd say (as someone who tended to spend far too long building things in SupCom campaign missions and hasn't won in GW at all), that the confusing part of PA isn't the speed or the orbital view (either you have an orbital/deepspace radar as can see non-annihilatory things coming, or you are missing an orbital/deepspace radar and should go build one soon), its the planets. if you have one planet, you have a simple set of attention points, and don't have to pay attention to all of them at once, since they're generally not terribly far from each other:

The more planets there are, the more additional sets of those you have to pay attention to, and if theres a gas giant you probably want to build that orbital unit thats for those around it (which will need some defense, orbitals are expensive), if theres a metal planet and people have the eco to use it you either are choking all the points you can make to hold claim near the catalyst pole, or trying to demolish everything that is near said pole. And moons are just bad in general for planets when anyone within parsecs just want to mount rockets on them.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on September 18, 2014, 09:15:43 PM
I agree. I think most of the difficulty of this game comes from what I like to call intellectual meltdown. I've literally had situations where I had so many units on so many planets and so many different things to do that my mind just kind of blanked out. It's a extreme test on your multitasking skills, and challenges your brain in a way no other game can. It becomes extremely overwhelming on the mind after a certain period of time.

Having said that, the intellectual burden of having to think about so many things at once is extremely different than the physical burden of intense micromanagement required to play a game like Starcraft. If you can handle the mental burden, it really only takes a few clicks to get everything in order. With so many game mechanics that work with the player to create automated factory and waypoint systems, the tax of PA lies on the mind.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 18, 2014, 09:58:46 PM
Yeah what you write is actually very true. And it doesn't help the game is hampered by bad GUI more than it is by bad design. A good example are teleporters. There is no indication where they link to once linked.

I find to me the limit is 4 planets. I can not do more than 4. At least patrol area and build area commands are very useful, and for defenses take into account fire-ranges, so you can build a planet wide orbital defense grid with 2 clicks. But fighting on planets where I only see 50% of the battlefield without constant rotating around a pole (I find that it's nearly impossible to play this game for me without pole lock) ... it's a very mentally draining game. Personally I could have done with with more focus on 2 or 3 planets  and their terrain. Currently you can't even call the terrain that. Because it's either a "wall" or it's drivable. There is literally no tactical thought beyond this. But I guess UBER noticed the problem of how draining playing on spheres is themselves.

I can handle the AI on whatever is 1 above Normal in GW just fine... but you can't even put in words how aggravating it is to literally have the dang server crash on you the moment you actually would have WON GW
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 18, 2014, 10:38:25 PM
Quote
Planetary Annihilation is a slick, modernised RTS, engineered from the ground up to appeal to the fast-paced, competitive, hotkey-loving esports crowd. For people like me, it is a bruising gauntlet of defeat. But even I can see the appeal.
I'm not sure what to tell that reviewer. If 20 commands per minute, or 1 command every 3 seconds, seems too strenuous, he might want to stick to TBS games or playing Checkers with his grandma. Perhaps there is a learning curve in terms of where to devote your time and resources (it comes easier for me having played Total Annihilation my whole life), but I promise you, heavy micromanagement, at least relative to the RTS standard, is not something this game requires to be a decent player. I don't even think you can compare it to SC2 where 200APM is a completely normal thing within the realm of competitive play. With literally 1/20th of that you can be a decent player in PA.

I'd love to find an RTS which realistically requires less than 20 actions per minute in order to be a decent player, but which was still interesting, engaging, and competitive. If you know of one, please point me in that direction.
I can feel what you're saying here, and I can tell from your posts that you're pretty invested in this game. Also , a lot of RockPaperShotgun articles seem to come from players who dabble rather than dive. Still, your comment "checkers with his grandma," seems to personify the type of person who PA is designed for. PA seems best for people who want to compete head-to-head and say that kind of trash talk. For people who want to dabble and wade, or face off against an AI designed to cater to their sensibilities, this game might not be for them. Or perhaps just not yet.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 18, 2014, 10:46:39 PM
If you can handle the mental burden, it really only takes a few clicks to get everything in order. With so many game mechanics that work with the player to create automated factory and waypoint systems, the tax of PA lies on the mind.

And yet the game feels like it doesn't take some of the best features or UI choices that previous RTS games have created. I can't put my finger on what PA is missing, but it's missing a lot of little somethings that would make this game a lot more enjoyable and a hell of a lot less micro-management intensive. I dunno, I'm going to play some more and maybe identify the problem spots. But it is clear that PA was not finished before release and has a ways to go.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 19, 2014, 03:10:13 AM
If I read RockPaperShotgun for reviews, I also listen to 3 Moves Ahead for an extremely nerdy analysis of strategy games. Here's TMA's Rob Zacny on PA: https://www.readability.com/articles/yfiitui5

Video on the main review: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/09/17/planetary-annihilation-review

Spoiler: it's not overall favorable. And it honestly doesn't sound like it deserves to be hailed as a worthy successor to the TA throne, though it could be, someday.

I'm still not completely soured on getting the game, myself, but I think it needs a few years of mods and development love (not to mention removal of the requirement for an internet connection for single player!) to get where it's supposed to be.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 19, 2014, 08:48:32 AM
For me to be HAPPY with it requires the offline mode. That's an absolute MUST. Being able to host your own servers is the next thing in line. After that? Hmm, optimization I guess. It noms a ridiculous amount of RAM with anything beyond 8-10 planets, or even HUGE planets. An AI that doesn't go borked when you mod the game is always nice.


Right click to set formation and factory assisting (have one factory assist another and thus sharing build queue) are two things I'm missing from SupCom. Other than that? Honestly, when playing one one BIG planet, it feels a lot like TA. I just wish that the balance mod didn't completely bork the AI or miss 80% of the icons. You can have only so many "dots" before you start questioning your sanity.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 19, 2014, 11:20:56 AM
I am going to do something I am only going to do once, I analyze the game (or rather, with does different to anyone else, and why that is maybe a problem ;)

That no tier 1 unit has an icon is actually one of the gravest oversights of them all (all aside). In a way it is actually kinda baffling that for once I agree with IGN, I thought I liked planets.... I was mistaken!.. the idea was new, it was cool. But it is extreme usability nightmare. All Views only display 50% of the planet and the closer you zoom, the less you see, there is no way around that unless you use a tethered PiP, and you only have 1 pip....... If there was only 1 major planet (when I saw the KS I thought moons would be dominated entirely by "outer space" units and not act the same as planet locked land battles) it would work, but the more I played the more I realized that other planets are really just "other maps"

Imagine playing SupCom 1 in it's terrifying huge scale (Tier 3 groups being devastated, insane long range artillery, nuke barrages) on 4 large maps at the same time all the while you play Kingslayer mode with a slow moving and VERY low health unit (commander dead, game over). That is PA. And it was a bad idea. A hugely bad idea to not include alternative win conditions.

To quote IGN
Quote
It's a fog-of-war you can never dispel; even when you have radar coverage of an entire planet, your situational awareness is severely reduced.

So PA is like playing (1/3 of) SupCom 1 with half the map blocked off unless you focus on it (then the other half gets blocked off) in terms of usability that is a nightmare. It's funny that I never realized until PA what huge genius it was from Civ 4 and 5 to do planets the way they did them. Hex and Grid based maps can be easily "wrapped" but without having geometric tiling at your disposal you literally can not fix the situational awareness problem.

PA would have needed severe design overhaul in relation to how they did planets. Planets should have inaccessible poles to some degree (the reason is near the poles, the angles and distances between steps are very small, this means cameras have the problem that they can "flip" over the pole and rotate 180° a HUGE usability problem when playing with pole-lock. And poles are the primary source of distortion in mapping and unwrapping of a sphere.

Planets should have grid based geometry, alá Civ4, this doesn't mean building or movement needs to adhere to the grid, but when it comes down to it a grid based planet allows you to remove poles from the projection and display the ENTIRE planet as a flat map with no (noticeable) distortion. This would have allowed a properly flat projected minimap per planet.

So I can understand that they didn't do it. This is counter to what they already had done to make planets look more planet'ish. (their entire design projects for planets was actually a hugely bad idea in retro-perspective) When you make planets you do everything you can to NOT have to use brushes. (because of relative projection issues). This is why nearly every visual tool in existence uses procedural height-maps as source for planet geometry. This is just, infinitely easier to procedurally generate than brushes on an already existing flat sphere. But they wanted to do craters without the game requiring DX11.

Because DX11 has a functionality for craters... this can feed back to CPU and be synced over network just fine. In the end, I realize PA is a series of concessions and band-aids slapped on a genuinely impressive idea the designers had. But they faltered turning that idea into a practical reality. What we have now is PA, and it is not really horrible. It is relatively fun if you set yourself some restrictions. But it COULD have been so much more, so much better.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 19, 2014, 01:53:07 PM
Interesting analysis. I don't know much about mapping stuff to spheres, but even having a distorted map that shows 100% of the playfield might be forgivable... if it wouldn't be so off-putting. And you'd have people saying, "why bother with spheres at all?"

Maybe there are other ways to use the novelty of the sphere, like you say, restrict polar movement, or have the planets generate continents as battlegrounds, so the action stays on one side of the map (with perhaps missile or orbital exchanges going on cross-continentally). It's a fun problem to tussle with in my head.

Part of the issue I think is that you'll get players wanting full-planet stuff, just because. Sometimes players (especially more vocal ones) chafe against any sort of restriction, or demand features that turn out to not be in the best interest of the game. So, you'd make it up to them in a way, by making alternate use of the sphere: simulate seasons, tilt, tides, day/night cycles, and planets' positions relative to the sun and one another. These would of course have effects on economy and combat. The sphere idea would still have a purpose beyond visuals, and would have significant effect on the game. (I assume PA already does this to a point?)

It's a really cool-looking game that seems like it will need some more developer attention, and I hope it gets it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 19, 2014, 04:28:13 PM
Sooo...if you don't like playing on planets, why play the game? It's like saying "God, I HATE puzzle games!" while playing Tetris. It's kinda odd, tbh. I personally don't find I have much issues with playing on a planet, as I normally don't have a base sprawling the entire planet. Normally I have a bookmark on my base and then one on every "combat hotspot" that I've noticed. That is places where my and other players units tend to clash. Or a direction from where my enemy come from often. If I have multiple planets I simply have more bookmarks.


I really don't get how this is an issue. Do you have as much overview as in SupCom? No, of course not. Is that a problem? No, not to me. It's just part of the game that you have limited intel. In addition, that limited intel makes invasions possible. Because if you had complete and utter control of an entire planet, no one would ever be able to invade it. Land a unit or two, yes, but they'd get blown up instantly. Now you can have cases where a player will analyse an enemy planet and figure out where he has the least intel and land an engineer there to build a teleporter and invade. I do not, in any way, see this as bad. It's good. The game would one giant turtlefest with nukes flying everywhere if this wasn't the case. Who cares about land units? Just make sure no one can land on your planet and spam those nukes boys!


Edit: I'm not "defending" PA as a fanboy, because I'm bloody annoyed by a lot of things in the game, but most of the "criticism" I've seen leveraged against it here just doesn't make sense to me. At all. Bad GUI, people say. I don't see how. Bad unit variety, I don't see how. Now bad unit balance? Yes. Teching up is the end all be all iWin button and that sucks. I'd like either a delayed techup or less of a power spike from teching up. Orbital combat and orbital overall is not fleshed out enough and basically amounts to spamming Avengers which is unimaginative. But again, the criticism in this thread just goes right over my head.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on September 19, 2014, 09:34:42 PM
Sooo...if you don't like playing on planets, why play the game? It's like saying "God, I HATE puzzle games!" while playing Tetris. It's kinda odd, tbh. I personally don't find I have much issues with playing on a planet, as I normally don't have a base sprawling the entire planet. Normally I have a bookmark on my base and then one on every "combat hotspot" that I've noticed. That is places where my and other players units tend to clash. Or a direction from where my enemy come from often. If I have multiple planets I simply have more bookmarks.


I really don't get how this is an issue. Do you have as much overview as in SupCom? No, of course not. Is that a problem? No, not to me. It's just part of the game that you have limited intel. In addition, that limited intel makes invasions possible. Because if you had complete and utter control of an entire planet, no one would ever be able to invade it. Land a unit or two, yes, but they'd get blown up instantly. Now you can have cases where a player will analyse an enemy planet and figure out where he has the least intel and land an engineer there to build a teleporter and invade. I do not, in any way, see this as bad. It's good. The game would one giant turtlefest with nukes flying everywhere if this wasn't the case. Who cares about land units? Just make sure no one can land on your planet and spam those nukes boys!


Edit: I'm not "defending" PA as a fanboy, because I'm bloody annoyed by a lot of things in the game, but most of the "criticism" I've seen leveraged against it here just doesn't make sense to me. At all. Bad GUI, people say. I don't see how. Bad unit variety, I don't see how. Now bad unit balance? Yes. Teching up is the end all be all iWin button and that sucks. I'd like either a delayed techup or less of a power spike from teching up. Orbital combat and orbital overall is not fleshed out enough and basically amounts to spamming Avengers which is unimaginative. But again, the criticism in this thread just goes right over my head.

Different strokes, different folks.

I didn't consider the whole "Planetary" part of PA meaning "You are fighting on planets the size of moons!" which seems to be the case more often then not.

I actually would consider eRe4s3r the best review of how, in addition to how PA literally didn't deliver everything I imagined as a sequel to supreme commander 1 nor as what they promised, but also how on the features they did promise being completely different from what i imagined.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 19, 2014, 10:49:36 PM
Sooo...if you don't like playing on planets, why play the game? It's like saying "God, I HATE puzzle games!" while playing Tetris.

Well, puzzle games are a genre. This is about criticizing a feature of a game, not expressing dislike for a genre and demanding that it bend in your direction.

However, you do have a point, in saying that having imperfect knowledge can be a good feature to have, even an enjoyable one. Question is: is it?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 19, 2014, 11:38:51 PM
In my mind it isn't... when a game has limitation of combat awareness then that is a game-design fault, not a game-design feature. They implemented planets and didn't implement a system to give us proper Intel even though that should have been number 1 priority when making an RTS. Can you really call that then a feature? Was that expectable from the KS? ;)

I do not "hate" planets per sé, I merely argue that with proper design full intel of at least 1 planet alá sup-com would have been easily possible. And planets could have been alot less annoying to handle. Let's face it, SupCom worked because you could zoom out and see everything easily. You could also zoom in, and still see everything easily, thanks to a configurable minimap. You could even split your view and have a minimap active at the same time, or have half your view be a minimap. Supcom literally had one of the best GUI designs in rts gaming.

Either way, I think with mods the GUI can be acceptable, but if you ask ME what I hate about the GUI (just from the top of my hat, no way to see where you aimed nuclear missiles after they launched, no way to see where teleporters link to, factories display +1 even when that is something they are currently already building (which is the OPPOSITE of all SupCom and TA games ever, they showed no number when something was actively built, this made sense because why would you queue a unit in production when that is already being produced anyway?) And it makes setting production ratios confusing as hell. Because you never know what is currently being built without zooming in. Then there is that you can't configure the PIP nor can you configure icon scale. There is no way to scale or reposition the PIP. There is no way to see where units will end up after giving the move order.

I just think they did planets in a way that a lot of people (including me) find quite annoying up to horribly irritating. Partially because of GUI but also partially because of design reasons.

And as backer I obviously couldn't have predicted they'd implement planets without giving us proper overviews. Or that we would be fighting on moons the same way we would be fighting on planets.

The fact that they hyped this game as a "spiritual successor of SUPCOM" is why I compare it feature wise to SupCom. ;/
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Hearteater on September 20, 2014, 08:32:54 AM
UI is amazingly difficult to get right. And I think a lot of people just don't "get" how to make a good UI. It is almost like being able to draw or make music it seems. And I'm not just limiting this to games. I find I'm constantly the only advocate of UI changes (or heck, even spending real time on UI design in the first place) at work. Poor UIs tend to drives me bonkers. So apparently I should probably give PA a pass for now :) .
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 20, 2014, 11:24:40 AM
That's true.. I think good GUI can only be really made when you prototype it, revise it, change it, fix it, and then test it and test it until you bleed from the eyes.

It's funny that whenever I think of GUI issues I must think of AI War too because by the heavens, that "context" menu.... until this day I never figured out how to actually USE it for anything. And this takes some special skill to design an UI element I can not figure out ;)

The biggest problem with GUI is apart from features simply not being there, you also have very little feedback. Launching a nuke should paint a nuclear symbol with the blast range on the ground and the siren should not just be focused on the missile itself (I mean, what the heavens is that even good for? The one who launches it doesn't need to hear the alarm where the missiles launch, he needs to hear it where they will hit (And so does the enemy)!) and when I give a move order that point should be MARKED ala <1> when that is a move-order for an entire group...

It's the small things that can really break an GUI (and to me, visual feedback is part of the (G) UI (Graphical User Interface) the user Interface even involves audio and visual cues. Anything that in any way feeds back information to the player is part of the GUI. Which is why GUI design is one of the most important things in making games. And so so very many games and developers fail at even the simplest challenges when it comes to GUI. Maybe they think it's enough to put functionality in the HUD? But GUI goes beyond that.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on September 20, 2014, 05:59:27 PM
The context menu is difficult to use with AI war. I still refer to the forums sometimes, even after all this time. I guess we all learned to work with it. I'm sure most people don't even know it exists. :-)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Misery on September 20, 2014, 07:37:53 PM
Context menu?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on September 20, 2014, 08:11:14 PM
Are you talking about the menu that has line place in it?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on September 20, 2014, 10:17:24 PM
Exactly. :-) Haha!  :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 20, 2014, 10:50:51 PM
Yeah the fun part is that they (Arcen) removed a major usability feature imo (toggle group move for the selection) and then somehow put it in sub-menus and global toggles, but I don't want global toggles, I want to press an interface button and my selection sticks to group move...

;) Just goes to show that UI can also be broken by "improvement". In the Unity version I am actually not happy about a lot of things, the lack of the minimap for one, and the HORRIBLE replacement....  I don't even understand why this could not have stayed in as an option.... oh well ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on September 21, 2014, 02:57:32 AM
Yeah the fun part is that they (Arcen) removed a major usability feature imo (toggle group move for the selection) and then somehow put it in sub-menus and global toggles, but I don't want global toggles, I want to press an interface button and my selection sticks to group move...

;) Just goes to show that UI can also be broken by "improvement". In the Unity version I am actually not happy about a lot of things, the lack of the minimap for one, and the HORRIBLE replacement....  I don't even understand why this could not have stayed in as an option.... oh well ;)
I would pay extra money to get the minimap back. And line-place for mines is so ugly. Mass mine placement in general is simply awful (CTRL and ALT Click). Line-place shouldn't even be necessary, it's a bandage for a feature that's out of tune.

Wait, this isn't the UI thread. But we have a UI improvement effort that's spooling up, hopefully a few of my pet issues make it in :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on September 22, 2014, 08:23:19 PM
Maybe it's just the realization that you need to play the game with hotkeys memorized because the interface cannot do it all. Good or bad, just an observation.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on October 06, 2014, 07:56:03 PM
October 9th. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/1009547)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 06, 2014, 08:21:34 PM
October 9th. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/659943965/planetary-annihilation-a-next-generation-rts/posts/1009547)
Yep, just got that in my email.  Glad to hear it :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on October 06, 2014, 08:38:52 PM
Oh, ye of little faith. (http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/d/d6/Zuus_level_04.mp3)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on October 06, 2014, 11:37:54 PM
If we live in age where delievering a key feature a month late is considered a successful kickstarter, it seems i shouldnt support any.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on October 06, 2014, 11:48:27 PM
Honestly its seems like 'successful kickstarter' and 'actually got done what it proposed' are on seperate scales at this point. People huzzah when one finishes and then wait in an arbitrary mood for the next one that makes the news because it successfully failed.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on October 07, 2014, 12:32:32 PM
If we live in age where delievering a key feature a month late is considered a successful kickstarter, it seems i shouldnt support any.
This pretty much. I find the fact that they are releasing it this late to be a huge fail on their part. That said, I'm grateful it's there at all.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 07, 2014, 12:43:39 PM
It's entirely fair for each of you to look at the result of this and other kickstarters and decide it's not something you want to put money into.  But personally I don't see anything about how the PA product turned out that would prevent me from further backing.

They messed up in a ton of ways, sure, and personally I'm disappointed in how it went.  But I'm happy to help them keep trying to make good games. 

Certainly, Arcen has greatly benefited from folks' willingness to look past an iffily-executed product or two (or three, or...) and continue to support our efforts.  Uber doesn't seem as customer-oriented as us (imo), but not to a deal-breaking degree.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on October 07, 2014, 01:51:39 PM
Honestly, whether they released it in September and called it the "finished product", or kept in beta for another month, just to release "the finished" product in early October with the offline/LAN support, I see no real difference between the two. The LAN support would have taken just as much time either way, so really the only difference was psychological or arbitrary in the end. They should have released "the finished product" with all the features they promised, but once again, it still would have taken the same amount of time, and there was no real benefits to the players for them to wait that extra month (that I can think of).

Overall, I've been very impressed with them, and will most likely drop $20 into their next game. I would give more but I just don't have that much money right now, and I've realized that I just don't care about the early alpha and beta privileges. I usually wait for the full release anyway before I really invest my time and energy into it. Sometimes betas can be really disappointing.

In the end though, I think of PA's "final product" to be a bit of a misnomer anyway. Uber is obviously a company that continues to support and update their games over time, as they have with Monday Night Combat, in the same way that Arcen does with AI War and many of their games. "Final product", in my opinion, is when the company has died or when the developers no longer exist anymore and even then, the ease of the game's moddability would give TA fans new material to enjoy for decades to come.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 07, 2014, 02:09:31 PM
The distinction may be psychological or arbitrary, as with a number of previous flubs (like putting it on steam when they still weren't comfortable pricing it lower than $80 or whatever it was at the time, due to what the backers paid).  But those kinds of psychological and arbitrary distinctions are what largely form an audience's impressions of a company and/or product.  I'm not saying that's a good thing.  Or really a bad thing.  Just a thing, that all developers (Arcen included) need to bear in mind.

It's been a pretty rocky ride PR-wise, and I hope they'll put more effort into smoothing that out in the future.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on October 07, 2014, 03:02:11 PM
I guess my point is that PR-related decisions don't really bother me, as long as they aren't intentionally screwing the customer over, which in this case, I can see no evidence of foul play. I think they just made a string of questionable decisions that they'll refrain from making in the future, as most indie developers do in some way or another, in spite of their good intentions. As an example, they aren't even promising any sort of offline-LAN option for their new game, which is a good start. I'm very impressed with the "final product" of their first big title, and am excited to see what else they have in store. I have a very good feeling about the future of this game and this company, we'll see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on October 08, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
if a high ranking decision leads to a feature not being in that KS backers expected then that is imo "intentionally screwing a customer over" ;)

After all, when a KS happens to succeed all those people are your customers. And Uber has particularly a REALLY bad customer communication. They do not visit their own forums or if they do, they do not say anything in them. That is hugely annoying, and imo really bad behavior.

And their next game is gonna use the same system as PA.. which means no sale, and no support from my end. PlayFab is annoying, no match-making and useless and even worse, pointless. Playfab does NOTHING of use for mp gamers, people had to hack together their own match-making for PA after all.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on October 08, 2014, 01:12:14 PM
PlayFab is annoying, no match-making and useless and even worse, pointless. Playfab does NOTHING of use for mp gamers, people had to hack together their own match-making for PA after all.

But it is saving them money...or something.... /sarcasm
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on October 08, 2014, 03:38:37 PM
So, would this offline patch make PA effectively DRM-free? If so, I'm a few steps more interested.

Also, if you're a game developer, you definitely want Wingflier as a high priest fan.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Wingflier on October 08, 2014, 04:06:55 PM
Dude I grew up playing Total Annihilation. Anybody who even attempts to remake the glory of my childhood deserves all my praise :D
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on October 09, 2014, 03:50:13 AM
So, would this offline patch make PA effectively DRM-free? If so, I'm a few steps more interested.

Also, if you're a game developer, you definitely want Wingflier as a high priest fan.
That is the plan. I don't know if LAN support comes in this patch as well, but it has been promised. The promise was that you were to be able to play it completely DRM free, offline and running your own servers and basically be able to mod almost everything in the game. We're not quite there yet :P
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on October 09, 2014, 04:07:35 PM
So, would this offline patch make PA effectively DRM-free? If so, I'm a few steps more interested.

Also, if you're a game developer, you definitely want Wingflier as a high priest fan.
That is the plan. I don't know if LAN support comes in this patch as well, but it has been promised. The promise was that you were to be able to play it completely DRM free, offline and running your own servers and basically be able to mod almost everything in the game. We're not quite there yet :P
I'm looking forward to it. It's not a guarantee, but very often games really get their best after the excitement dies down, when they become just a big lump of clay for a gaming community to roll around in its hands for half a decade. I know that it's not the most exciting thing to a developer, though, since the game by then is not nearly as profitable, but the open-as-heck approach can also sometimes result in a relatively low, but steady, income source as the game sustains continued 'cult' interest.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on October 11, 2014, 12:33:16 AM
So, would this offline patch make PA effectively DRM-free? If so, I'm a few steps more interested.


I highly doubt they will remove PlayFab logins even FROM the Offline server version, i have the latest PTE and it's not magically skipping FlayFab... it simply runs the games on your own pc but you still have to be online to even get into the menu..

Maybe they have different interpretation on what playing "offline" means.

Guess we'll see ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 11, 2014, 11:51:48 AM
Maybe they have different interpretation on what playing "offline" means.
If so they'll learn the correct definition: "where the internet can't get to you".  Because they will want to be there :)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on October 13, 2014, 01:50:34 PM
So I just checked it again and you CAN play it entirely offline.... if you install the crack ;p

So playfab gone and offline gaming is possible. But still not lan play from what I can tell. Ie no local server discovery etc. This just further proves that Playfab is just the gatekeeper to MP, it doesn't have an actual function besides that (that I could tell, anyway)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on October 13, 2014, 07:14:46 PM
So I just checked it again and you CAN play it entirely offline.... if you install the crack ;p

So playfab gone and offline gaming is possible. But still not lan play from what I can tell. Ie no local server discovery etc. This just further proves that Playfab is just the gatekeeper to MP, it doesn't have an actual function besides that (that I could tell, anyway)


I'm sure they are just getting all of the legitimate sales that they can before opening up to potential pirate scenarios. Let's be real, if they offered local area network play, a lot of people would just steal the game and play offline.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 13, 2014, 07:25:13 PM
Meanwhile if you want that kind of customer service you have to crack the game :)

Certainly not a situation unique to this game, of course.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on October 14, 2014, 05:18:52 AM
So I just checked it again and you CAN play it entirely offline.... if you install the crack ;p

So playfab gone and offline gaming is possible. But still not lan play from what I can tell. Ie no local server discovery etc. This just further proves that Playfab is just the gatekeeper to MP, it doesn't have an actual function besides that (that I could tell, anyway)


I'm sure they are just getting all of the legitimate sales that they can before opening up to potential pirate scenarios. Let's be real, if they offered local area network play, a lot of people would just steal the game and play offline.

True enough.. but given the limited content of the game in terms of AI skirmish I doubt it would have much allure for pirates ,) Most people do not care for LAN gaming ;) I guess there'd be a few pirates who'd care... but considering the development was funded before development they have literally nothing to lose from pirates.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: WingedKagouti on October 14, 2014, 08:46:07 AM
So I just checked it again and you CAN play it entirely offline.... if you install the crack ;p

So playfab gone and offline gaming is possible. But still not lan play from what I can tell. Ie no local server discovery etc. This just further proves that Playfab is just the gatekeeper to MP, it doesn't have an actual function besides that (that I could tell, anyway)


I'm sure they are just getting all of the legitimate sales that they can before opening up to potential pirate scenarios. Let's be real, if they offered local area network play, a lot of people would just steal the game and play offline.
I know at least 8 people who would do just that. Granted LAN play is something they do once or twice a year, but it does happen often enough that they do use some cracked games and generally won't consider buying those games for themselves afterwards. Their thought process going something like "I can't play with the others if I buy it, since they use the cracked version. So I'll just buy something else instead, perhaps a couple of beer and some snacks."
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Cyborg on October 14, 2014, 08:48:32 AM
So I just checked it again and you CAN play it entirely offline.... if you install the crack ;p

So playfab gone and offline gaming is possible. But still not lan play from what I can tell. Ie no local server discovery etc. This just further proves that Playfab is just the gatekeeper to MP, it doesn't have an actual function besides that (that I could tell, anyway)


I'm sure they are just getting all of the legitimate sales that they can before opening up to potential pirate scenarios. Let's be real, if they offered local area network play, a lot of people would just steal the game and play offline.

True enough.. but given the limited content of the game in terms of AI skirmish I doubt it would have much allure for pirates ,) Most people do not care for LAN gaming ;) I guess there'd be a few pirates who'd care... but considering the development was funded before development they have literally nothing to lose from pirates.


Of course there is something to lose. Profit.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on October 14, 2014, 09:36:59 AM
I finally found a potential reason for PlayFab. It is simple, and I didn't come with it because of how horrible it is.

PlayFab is the infrastructure to allow in game purchases. That is how it "cuts costs" for them.  It actually doesn't, it just boosts their income. I notice if I do not log in to the program, in game purchases are disabled.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on October 15, 2014, 05:13:11 AM
in-game purchases? You mean those 10$ commander avatars that all look sort of alike and nobody cares how their own actually looks? ;) I would think sales of those are in the "low 100's" at best... or at least I hope.. never even considered that haha ;)

So I just checked it again and you CAN play it entirely offline.... if you install the crack ;p

So playfab gone and offline gaming is possible. But still not lan play from what I can tell. Ie no local server discovery etc. This just further proves that Playfab is just the gatekeeper to MP, it doesn't have an actual function besides that (that I could tell, anyway)


I'm sure they are just getting all of the legitimate sales that they can before opening up to potential pirate scenarios. Let's be real, if they offered local area network play, a lot of people would just steal the game and play offline.
I know at least 8 people who would do just that. Granted LAN play is something they do once or twice a year, but it does happen often enough that they do use some cracked games and generally won't consider buying those games for themselves afterwards. Their thought process going something like "I can't play with the others if I buy it, since they use the cracked version. So I'll just buy something else instead, perhaps a couple of beer and some snacks."

To be fair, for lan gaming I only ever allowed cracked games myself too..... the reason is simple. stability and version control. Everyone had the SAME VERSION, everyone had the SAME MAPS and the SAME MODS. if you ever had a LAN yourself you know coordinating this so that everyone has the exact same version of a game can be quite a challenge. :)

Especially when you play with mods.... more than 1 lan party was ruined because some-body had version 1.41 of some mod and someone else had version 1.5 and yet another one had version 1.46 and all 3 were mutually exclusive and copying over the folders somehow invalidated the game install unless you cracked it (yes, had it all happen)

And the download link for version 1.41, 1.46 and 1.5 had disappeared, and now you could only download version 1.52... which was 1.2gb ;) (back when 10mbit LAN was a thing, that was huge) grml...
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: WingedKagouti on October 15, 2014, 08:21:40 AM
in-game purchases? You mean those 10$ commander avatars that all look sort of alike and nobody cares how their own actually looks? ;) I would think sales of those are in the "low 100's" at best... or at least I hope.. never even considered that haha ;)

So I just checked it again and you CAN play it entirely offline.... if you install the crack ;p

So playfab gone and offline gaming is possible. But still not lan play from what I can tell. Ie no local server discovery etc. This just further proves that Playfab is just the gatekeeper to MP, it doesn't have an actual function besides that (that I could tell, anyway)


I'm sure they are just getting all of the legitimate sales that they can before opening up to potential pirate scenarios. Let's be real, if they offered local area network play, a lot of people would just steal the game and play offline.
I know at least 8 people who would do just that. Granted LAN play is something they do once or twice a year, but it does happen often enough that they do use some cracked games and generally won't consider buying those games for themselves afterwards. Their thought process going something like "I can't play with the others if I buy it, since they use the cracked version. So I'll just buy something else instead, perhaps a couple of beer and some snacks."

To be fair, for lan gaming I only ever allowed cracked games myself too..... the reason is simple. stability and version control. Everyone had the SAME VERSION, everyone had the SAME MAPS and the SAME MODS. if you ever had a LAN yourself you know coordinating this so that everyone has the exact same version of a game can be quite a challenge. :)

Especially when you play with mods.... more than 1 lan party was ruined because some-body had version 1.41 of some mod and someone else had version 1.5 and yet another one had version 1.46 and all 3 were mutually exclusive and copying over the folders somehow invalidated the game install unless you cracked it (yes, had it all happen)

And the download link for version 1.41, 1.46 and 1.5 had disappeared, and now you could only download version 1.52... which was 1.2gb ;) (back when 10mbit LAN was a thing, that was huge) grml...
To me the main thing is that these days Steam and similar services make sure that the version you have installed is up to date. And yes, I've experienced the same version mismatch you have, and it can slow down a party as everyone waits while the one CD with the install files for all the cracks/mods is passed around. But now we have Steam, the workshop, and rather massive connections available, letting everyone sync up with the latest patch (if they haven't already) in usually under half an hour (unless it's a large game and/or several people don't have it installed).

For all the things people complain about with Steam, Origin, UPlay and whatever else there is, those services at least make sure that people aren't trying to use outdated versions to play with others.

And those people I wrote about in my previous post? They'd still stick to the cracked version and never buy the game for themselves, even though they like the games and could afford to buy them several times. Which is partially why the last couple of sessions have been mostly FTP grindfest shooters, with a few other people taking breaks with some game they own.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on October 15, 2014, 07:00:52 PM
I finally found a potential reason for PlayFab. It is simple, and I didn't come with it because of how horrible it is.

PlayFab is the infrastructure to allow in game purchases. That is how it "cuts costs" for them.  It actually doesn't, it just boosts their income. I notice if I do not log in to the program, in game purchases are disabled.
Ah, so maybe it's a hopeful storefront. Everything's got to have a storefront, whether you play it, watch it, do actual work on it, read books on it, or scan your computer for viruses with it. Yes, you can access this content, as long as you do it through our FREE storefront.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: chemical_art on October 16, 2014, 04:50:53 PM

And those people I wrote about in my previous post? They'd still stick to the cracked version and never buy the game for themselves, even though they like the games and could afford to buy them several times. Which is partially why the last couple of sessions have been mostly FTP grindfest shooters, with a few other people taking breaks with some game they own.

For me, the grand factor of older games is not price, but convenience, which is why I think steam does so well.***

There are some who will buy, not matter what.

There are some, who pirate, no matter what.

I feel most people though are in the middle, where there is a balance between price and convenience.  If one has to jump through hoops of any sort for a "paid" version, no matter the reason, the pirated version wins out. However the opposite can be true as well. If the price is cheap, and the convenience (mod support, lan support, whatever) is better for a "paid" version, then people will pay.

True story, I got a game for free with my graphics card. I used to play it every day till the non-steam interface started giving me issues. I haven't played a day since, for I quickly got bored and played games who didn't give me crud.  I could play the game, but now I have many more which give me NO problems.


It is a reality of the game market today. Either keep budgets down and appeal to a few, or expect to have to be across the board friendly to the consumer. There is little middle ground I find.


***I apologize, but there are TONS of other gamer sites that do this as well. I didn't want to view them at all in a negative way, just forgot to mention them. They are all share a theme in common, absolutely minimal DRM (if at all!)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: TheVampire100 on October 16, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
I think everyone has "pirated" in a way at some point in its gamer life. This does however not mean that he will periodically pirate games to save money. It just means in some cases it is, like you said, easier to handle.

I pirated an early version of PvsZ because at that time buying games online was for me an painful act and I had to do multiple steps until I finally could play a game. At that time I preferred buying games in shops, something I do now rarely.
However I bought PvsZ at later dates multiple times on various plattforms. PC, DS, iOS, I got almost every version of the game and I think this makes up for the piracy more than enough.
However when I look now at the new PvsZ it gives me the shivers what has happened to it...


PA looked for pretty awesome in the trailers, screenshots, descriptions and so on. However seeing now how they handle it I won't ever touch the game. I don't like it to let me chain at a online server just to play a game offline. And you hear it everytime that people don't liek a service like this, still it gets used in multiple situations.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: topper on June 18, 2015, 01:34:26 PM
So, this is some pretty serious thread-necro. But I thought the question could be repeated here where there has already been a lot of discussion.

Is this worth getting now? It is <$5 on the steam sale for the next 23.5 hours and the recent updates and reviews seem to indicate that the game is in a much better state now, but that there are still a lot of angry early purchasers.

Can I get a brief opinion on:
Single player
Competitive multiplayer
Coop multiplayer

and whether I should pick it up on the deal?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on June 18, 2015, 01:41:37 PM
For $5? Yes, go for it. But treat it as an experimental new kind of map rather than an upgrade from SupCom or TA.

I'd try to help with the brief, but I haven't played in months due to needing the drive space for other things.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mick on June 18, 2015, 02:39:58 PM
I'd say it's not worth $5. I think I bought it for something like that quite a while ago, and I've barely touched it.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: kasnavada on June 18, 2015, 02:42:28 PM
I like TA and loved both Supreme Commanders.

This game bored me to tears - I was among the early backers. Seeing this on sale for 5 dollars pains me. That's about what it's worth. I paid much more than that for boring and broken versions of the game. There's definitely a game somewhere around this concept, but there's too much micro to handle on multiple planets simultaneously for my taste, and you've got "only" the view of one 10th of a planet at any time.

The "most" fun I had were on limited scenarios on the old limited campaign (which changed since) with units limited to level 1. The way upgrades are to be done... not fun to me. Basically huge concept flaws in the execution. Managing multiple planets (one of the selling point of the game) can be fun with automation, so you don't micro everything. The only automation I've seen is QUEUING.

As such, the game isn't getting "much better". Most people which hates / dislikes the game forgot it and only (more and more hardcore) fans are left, so reviews improve.

Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: doctorfrog on June 18, 2015, 03:19:43 PM
At that price point, the question is: Is this game worth my time? (20 or more hours.)

(My time, personally? Doesn't look like it. And that makes me kinda sad because I was pretty excited for the game.)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 18, 2015, 06:16:01 PM
For $5 I'd say it's worth it for the single player component and some AI skirmishing, but other than that, no.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on June 18, 2015, 06:21:57 PM
For $5 I'd say it's worth it for the single player component and some AI skirmishing, but other than that, no.

I agree, very soulless game all around.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Pumpkin on June 19, 2015, 06:03:54 AM
Can I get a brief opinion on:
Single player
Coming from AI War, obviously, Plan'An is lame in PvE. The PvE is what I prefer in RTS (and it's mostly why I love AI War and why I dislike StarCraft). I played a lot the galactic war (the "campaign" where you explore planets to get tech and go from AI battle to AI battle) but I really didn't like it. It's slow and the limitations aren't forcing you to develop new strategy, they just force you to fight lame AI with few choices.

If you want a good single player RTS, I guess you already have one. ;)
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: topper on June 19, 2015, 08:58:16 AM
If you want a good single player RTS, I guess you already have one. ;)

Very true.  :) I think I will end up passing on this one for now still for that reason. Plus, I could not convince any of my usual gaming buddies to get on board using the arguments posted here  ;)

Thanks all for the responses!
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on August 19, 2015, 06:07:58 PM
So, Titans are a thing. Except theres still only one faction, which means you have the same experimental-sized units as everyone else. And they announced them on the same day it came out, yesterday.

Unsurprisingly, people are calling shenanigans complaining immensely at its expandaloneness, since its more or less a unit expansion with other bits, and was only given out free to KS backers. But at least the tutorial is interactive now, I guess?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Toranth on August 19, 2015, 07:30:11 PM
So, Titans are a thing. Except theres still only one faction, which means you have the same experimental-sized units as everyone else. And they announced them on the same day it came out, yesterday.

Unsurprisingly, people are calling shenanigans complaining immensely at its expandaloneness, since its more or less a unit expansion with other bits, and was only given out free to KS backers. But at least the tutorial is interactive now, I guess?
Hey, those Kickstarter backers deserve something for their absurd payments, don't you think?

Still... do these guys never learn?  I'd fire their entire marketing and PR department.  Who on earth would think that making some minor mods would merit delisting the original game and relaunching at 500% the previous day's price?
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Aklyon on August 19, 2015, 08:43:10 PM
I'm entirely fine with the free part, after all I was one of those KS backers! (at the lowest price that still got you the game)

But yes. They need much better PR and to not irritate people constantly. The tone of that post is probably the most positive I've heard besides the pcgamer/rps reviews, which are from the viewpoint of someone who really like the idea, and sound like its gonna be a nice review, and then it turns back to why they stopped playing it in the first place, which hasn't changed all that much.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 20, 2015, 06:44:29 AM
Very odd decision by uber not to give this to EA buyers for free. They paid substantially more than most KS backers of lower tiers and financed development just the same.

That said, to me this is nothing more than a tiny expansion. The game will always fail because it only has 1 race with 1 unit set. No matter how many units that is. But it makes perfect.. already units all look the same. Imagine 3 races with blocky untextured units ;p
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 20, 2015, 09:18:16 AM
Yeah, their PR department must be the worst one I've seen since Ubisoft. Geez. I got Titans for free, but I can't even bring myself to download and play it. PA is such a broken, unbalanced, ugly mess that I just can't....no. I'd much rather reinstall Total Annihilation than play PA.


Or, you know, the game far superior to both: Supreme Commander: FA.
Title: Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2015, 11:12:47 AM
Yea, I've cut Uber a lot of slack on previous PR fiascos, but after this many times its clear that there's a real problem not just with their execution, but with their intent. So I probably will not give any further attention to them or their games.