Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 98285 times)

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2012, 04:10:47 PM »
Yes.. cassi pressing r isnt very much burst at all :p

Swain/vlad/ahri are a lot of delayed burst as well.. Granted they hit their upper limit after a few seconds. Ryze's is a bit higher because he tends to go qwqeqrqwqeq or so.

Anyway, I think the point of this is that mages still scale incredibly well into the lategame, and do nothing but deal damage. I dont really like that.
edit, i probably should point out at some time in this thread that I am an ad carry main. So part of this is indeed the whole 'rock is fine, nerf scissors'-paper thing going on.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2012, 10:44:35 AM »
Quote
edit, i probably should point out at some time in this thread that I am an ad carry main. So part of this is indeed the whole 'rock is fine, nerf scissors'-paper thing going on.
I don't know, maybe not.

I'm typically a caster player in DotA (or I have been for most of my "career"), and I like how they dominate the early and mid-game. 

Think about it:  If you shut the enemy team down hard enough early game, it never makes it to late-game.  You have the power, as a player, to direct the flow of the game from the very beginning.  A carry can only do well assuming it makes it to late-game, and you're completely relying on your supports and casters in DotA for it to get there.  That's why I said before, Int heroes in DotA are the most valuable asset on any given team, contrary to popular belief.  The carry in DotA is kind of like the singer in a band; everyone gives him all the credit because he's the center of attention, but chances are he would never have gotten there without his team.

Because AP and AD are both powerful late-game, there's really not a role (that I've seen used) that excels early game; at least well enough to end it before the carries can get farmed.  In LoL, you're pretty much forced to go into late-game in most competitive matches, which means that, like you said, it all revolves around your carries (AP or AD) and how much damage they can do.  In other words, as an AD Carry in LoL, it's much less interesting and challenging (in my experience) than in DotA, because in the end everyone is going to be as powerful as you anyway; which isn't the case with DotA.  It's also why, in my opinion, LoL matches are often so much slower than DotA matches.  You're trudging through the early and mid game, waiting for your carries to get farmed.

I was watching some tournament play yesterday for League and DotA.  I think the League Tournament was the IPL5 and the DotA tournament was WCG 2012.  Anyway, the League game I watched ended with the total killscore being about half the game's duration (so it was about 22 kills at around 40 minutes).  The game was probably over long before that.

The DotA 2 game had about double the kills of the game's duration (about 60 kills at 30 minutes).  Sure, it's anecdotal, but this is the kind of trend I usually see when I watch competitive play for either game.  I personally think a big reason is because DotA has roles of heroes that are powerful at all stages of the game, and can win at all stages of the game, where most of League's power is skewed towards the end-game.

Neither of these things are good or bad per se.  Some people like a slower paced game.

I used to play Veigar a lot, and I found that his ability to farm AP all game, then crunch people at the end was a lot of fun.  Even though he didn't fit into the traditional "DotA" role of what a caster should do, he was different than the typical LoL caster in that getting farmed meant having good positioning, getting lots of last hits, and he had a really interesting AoE stun field that could really turn the tide of fights.  Even though he still wasn't very good early game, he had a unique caster playstyle that was about more than just doing damage, damage, damage. 

Ironically, around the time when bruisers started becoming popular (which was a couple years ago at least), he just fell out of favor, and has never really returned.  The problem is that there's really only 1 AP Carry, and the support player doesn't have to build AP (think Taric or Leona).  Even the AP Carry, realizing he's facing a Veigar, can do all kinds of things to counter him.  He can go a tanky AP build like Rod of Ages (or something similar).  He can Banshee Veil.  He can get Zhonya's and just "dodge" your entire combo.

Nuanced casters like Veigar have no place in the game.  What is Veigar going to do against a bruiser?  Answer:  Nothing (unless you count dying).  He's Tier 4 in Elementz Tier List for good reason.  The best casters are just the AP equivalent to carries.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 10:48:12 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2012, 11:16:02 AM »
CCs are much stronger in DOTA, which is a large part of why their kill scores are so much larger.  When I watch a DOTA match, it is like every ability single ability has some form of CC, and a lot of times the numbers are massive.  High slow%, long duration stuns, massive AOE, and huge ranges.  That's ok because all the abilities are that way.  But yeah, it does make for much more lethal games.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 11:19:53 AM »
Speaking of that, does anybody get Cleanse in LoL anymore? I was wondering whether I should take that sometimes.

It seems like a Flash an ability everybody gets.  What do you think about removing Flash from the game entirely?
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2012, 12:31:28 PM »
Removing Flash comes up a lot on the board.  The main problem is several champs are pretty dependent on it.  But another issue is Flash encourages lane aggression because you have an escape.  Things are a lot more passive without it.  So they've considered removing it main times, and even giving it the blink dagger treatment so it is for offense only, but its got a really solid upside to go with its downside.  So what they are trying to do for S3 is buff all the other Summoner spells so there is more compelling reasons to take them.  We'll see how it goes.  Barrier is making an appearance, and Heal getting tweaked.  We'll have to see if they can make the underused spells solid enough picks.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2012, 12:35:46 PM »
Quote
Removing Flash comes up a lot on the board.  The main problem is several champs are pretty dependent on it.
Then rebalance those champions right?  I mean there's major balance patches all the time. 

Quote
But another issue is Flash encourages lane aggression because you have an escape.
But the person you're chasing has an escape as well doesn't he (in Flash)?  It seems to me like the defensive aspect cancels out the offensive aspect, unless I'm missing something.

Quote
Things are a lot more passive without it.
Oh, have they tried removing it in the beta builds or something? I hadn't heard anything about that.

Quote
Barrier is making an appearance, and Heal getting tweaked.  We'll have to see if they can make the underused spells solid enough picks.
I'm interested to see.  I'm also interested to see how the armor stacking nerf goes.  I think if they fix those two things (bruisers and OP flash), I might consider playing again.  We'll see.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2012, 12:52:30 PM »
Veigar still has absolutely the best stun in the game, and some really strong zone control merely by existing. The problem is that if you can apply any sort of cc to him, he dies. Also, the recent dfg nerfs hit him VERY hard. I used to really like him tbh, but I feel like lately he doesnt burst hard enough.

I tend to bring cleanse in a few specific situations - against initative cc that i can never afford to get hit by - Some combination of amumu/ashe/leona/sej - longish range hard stuns that will get me killed before the duration ends. However, I tend to avoid cleanse on certan carries because other summonerspells are better - not having ignite on trist means you dont have stupid amounts of burst at level 6. Ghost on ashe is really strong in the early game, etc.

I still tend to build qss a fair deal against these abilities or other debuffs while playing trist or ashe, because qss is a really good item.

as for flash - Flash was designed to replace blink dagger/forcestaff/other mobility items. Is it suitable to remove it? Not really. I would probably like to see it more like forcestaff - go really fast in that direction for a short period. this just gives people a little bit more time to react to something like flash galio or something.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2012, 12:58:48 PM »
For flash, try to imagine this.

With no flash, if a low health player runs and you can't kill before they leave their range, you are usually out of luck, so you don't attempt to pursue. With flash, you get interactions where the choice "do I need to use flash to escape / pursue" which in general is a very snap decision that can mean the difference of victory or defeat, in part because flash has such a long cool down you can't use it every time you may need it.

Flash forces snap decisions which tend to result more in mistakes (for both runner and pursuers). High level play of course will make less mistakes, but it still does force them.

Although, for the record, I do think spells should be modified. Or, more to the point, the other spells should be buffed so they make as much of an impact (cleanse gives a short cc immunity, maybe combine heal with clarity, ignite prevents healing, ghost immune to slowing effects, etc)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 01:06:42 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2012, 01:55:07 PM »
They've removed flash on their internal server for testing play without it at least twice.  Both times the general feel was the game wasn't just wasn't as fun, and that the problems it created were greater than the problems Flash causes.  Flash used to go further and have a shorter cooldown, so they've nerfed it at least 2-3 times so far.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2012, 02:25:15 PM »
Yes- somewhat important to note that flash in higher level play seems to be more aggressive. At least, i think so. I havent actually watched higher level league stuff in a very long time
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2012, 02:44:23 PM »
Yes- somewhat important to note that flash in higher level play seems to be more aggressive. At least, i think so. I havent actually watched higher level league stuff in a very long time
Dunno, I watch a bit of higher level League from time to time.  I still don't understand the explanation that Flash is an offense-oriented spell, or increases the pace of the game.  Not to say that the claim isn't true, I just don't understand it.

In DotA for example, that might make sense, considering that tower diving is rather easy.  Towers do quite a bit of damage early on, but compared to League towers, they're like pea shooters.  When someone Flashes back into their tower in League, it's quite dangerous to Flash after them for obvious reasons. 

Maybe they've removed Flash from the test client, but have they replaced it with an item that gives the ability instead?  I think that might be a good idea at least, whether or not it actually works out is a different story.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2012, 03:11:52 PM »
Well, lets put it this way - if I can flash-stun someone with taric, he wont have a chance to react, often meaning I can follow up with my full combo (and my lane partners) before the stun is over. That often will be a kill.

If I stun first, then he other guy easily has time to use a mobility spell, walk away, or flash if he needs to.

Similarly, flash is often used as a gap closer to less fortunate janglers - udyr can flash-bearstance people to submission, for instance. Again, an instant stun that leaves little time to be reacted to. The only response to this is often to flash away yourself, if you have the reaction time. (because likely chaincc from lane people)

Or perhaps someone like ryze - he has an instant cast root with no projecitle... but hes not exactly the fastest of heros. If you walk up to someone, they can often walk away. If you flash, youre very likely going to get your cc off before they can do something.

In professional play it seems that the very small windows of reaction are very important. For instance, using flash the other way.. While watching our lord TreeEskimo stream, he once commented that there is no reason to ever get hit by a malphite ult in competitive play. This was really interesting to me, as malph is typically considered one of the better initiators in the game. His reasoning was that malphs ult travel time is more than ample to flash away if you are prepared for it, which seems like a really good point. On the other hand, a malph flashing towards you and point blank ulting leaves almost no actual time to respond..

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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2012, 03:49:41 PM »
Yes- somewhat important to note that flash in higher level play seems to be more aggressive. At least, i think so. I havent actually watched higher level league stuff in a very long time
Dunno, I watch a bit of higher level League from time to time.  I still don't understand the explanation that Flash is an offense-oriented spell, or increases the pace of the game.  Not to say that the claim isn't true, I just don't understand it.


Two things I think of.

1) Since players are not bots, there will always be a delay from the offense to defense flash. This window may be small, but it is enough that a flash + cc can be used as an initiate to kill a weakened player.

2) Since flash is not always up, when lanning the side whose flashes are on cooldown must be passive, since a flashing gank will result in defeat, and a flash from the enemy lanners if they have any advantage will also result in defeat. This leads to them being passive, allowing greater zoning and an overall advantage to the non-flashed side. When both sides have flash however, the flash provides a huge distance closer for the runner to get to their tower, meaning that they won't die but will be pushed back.

In the case of ganks, the gankee, if they have wards up, can easily move away once the ganker is seen if there is no flash whatsoever, but if both have flash, the ganker can still position themselves to nuke and or cc the enemy champion, meaning the offense still has an advantage.


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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2012, 04:27:57 PM »
Speaking of overly-defensive gameplay and mechanics which promote that, I just watched the first game of The Defense 3 Dota 2 Tournament that started today and holllyyyyyyyy s***.

It was a high octane, action-packed game.  Over 50 kills by 20 minutes.  Dire took a very aggressive, gank-heavy team and made the best of it.  Night Stalker, who is relatively weak during the day, but becomes an unholy terror during the night.  Bounty Hunter, who can go invisible for long periods of time, track you so that you can't hide or escape, then kill you when you least expect it.  And most importantly, Wisp, with TF's old map-wide teleport ability, except that he can take an ally with him for extra fun :P

http://www.the-defense.com/en/vods/2665-the-defense-3-pulse-vs-iccup

Watch it if you dare ;p
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2012, 05:45:53 PM »
Oh yes, pulse i think it was made great use of wisp's relocate that game, I'm glad I actually stayed and watched it (cant remember if it was that game or the game before that had technical issues for like 10 minutes )
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