Arcen Games

Other => Game Development => Topic started by: Teal_Blue on April 30, 2015, 10:47:13 AM

Title: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Teal_Blue on April 30, 2015, 10:47:13 AM
I know you have your hands full with SBR and the soon to come schmup game, but have really been loving 7 days to die since you mentioned it. I think it's all the crafting that I love so much. So I thought I'd ask if Arcen had any plans for a crafting/building game? Not a 7DTD game in particular, but something where the bulk of the gameplay involves finding and crafting and building. It has sort of become my new favorite over platformers. :)
Thank you for listening,
-Teal

Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on April 30, 2015, 11:18:48 AM
That sort of survival game has become a new favorite of mine, too.  The specific element of crafting is not my main focus, but certainly that is a part of it.  Anyway, yes, the next game is actually going to have a lot of those sorts of elements.  It's not not really a SHMUP at all anymore, heh.  New name, too!
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Pumpkin on April 30, 2015, 03:25:19 PM
It's not not really a SHMUP at all anymore, heh.  New name, too!
Ooh... Wana hear more... however, SBR first!

Arg! I have my hands full of awesome Arcen's games, and you make me want more?!? How you guys are you doing that?
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on April 30, 2015, 03:31:06 PM
Crafting in an Arcen Game? Now I'm curious.
Crafting is one of this stuff that makes a game a lot better for if it's done correctly. I like to build my own stuff because it gives me the feeling doing soemthing myself rather on relying on stuff that I found or bought.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Teal_Blue on April 30, 2015, 03:41:02 PM
That sort of survival game has become a new favorite of mine, too.  The specific element of crafting is not my main focus, but certainly that is a part of it.  Anyway, yes, the next game is actually going to have a lot of those sorts of elements.  It's not not really a SHMUP at all anymore, heh.  New name, too!


Sounds very cool, thank you for the answer back. I will be looking forward not only to SBR, but to the new game too. Like the new name, very nice.

-Teal

Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on April 30, 2015, 03:43:21 PM
I don't want to get into the next game too much in terms of discussion, but it is something where I have to always be planning at least one game in advance (so that when artists and so forth finish their work, they have something new to do even though I'm still on the current game).  In this particular case, the general idea is that I want to create basically the game that I hoped Don't Starve Together would be, but (for me) wasn't.  In some respects, the 2D expression of 7 Days To Die, but not really.  A bit of SPAZ inspiration, I'd say.  A whole lot of new.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Pumpkin on April 30, 2015, 03:49:23 PM
"Life at the end of the universe"
Interesting, but a bit long, don't you think?
LEU? Or "LatEotU"? :-\ Ok, sorry, I stop it. :-X

All that things reminds me of Shellcore Command. How I'm sad the dev didn't go forward... Skirmish expansion is... good, but not as juicy as the campaign was. I tried to replicate it, but made a lame buggy shmup. I'm still trying something, after years, however. How I feel Airship Eternal would be all I wanted from it...

Anyway, count me in the next beta! ;D :P
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on April 30, 2015, 03:50:21 PM
You never know if perhaps that name won't stick, it is long.  But I'm fond of it. :)
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on April 30, 2015, 04:00:24 PM
Crafting is one of this stuff that makes a game a lot better for if it's done correctly.
If done right, crafting is awesome.
Done poorly it feels either tacked on or nonsensical.

Subnautica (http://store.steampowered.com/app/264710/) I'm worried is going to fall into "nonsensical" ("we have matter replicators, buuuut...no blueprints, go find me 30 thingamajigs" or maybe "we have matter replicators, buuut we need raw mat--hey quit that, you can't just ask for a submarine, uberarmor, and a laser cannon!  This is the early game, we need unobtainium for those!").

Dungeon Defenders Eternity fell into "tacked on."  You had to find blueprints that when crafted (with a maximum number of craftings allowed) resulted in a specific random item (and all the crafting ingredients were arbitrary bullshit.  Bat wings, blood drops, wrapping paper...
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on April 30, 2015, 04:08:15 PM
Yes, that tacked-on feeling is a big part of why I never liked crafting too much.  Until the last year, when I felt like I saw it done right or almost-right.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on April 30, 2015, 04:42:19 PM
Yes, that tacked-on feeling is a big part of why I never liked crafting too much.  Until the last year, when I felt like I saw it done right or almost-right.

Minecraft did it in a way that doesn't make it a crafting game.  You get stuff and you turn it into other stuff.  Somewhere between Minecraft and Terraria (here's a list of all the stuff you can make) is a good spot.

It, however, is not the only spot.  The good spot is where crafting allows customization.  Borderlands could have had that system (all the randomly generated items used the system in the background, but it was never exposed to the player).  And that, I think, is where the real fun is.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: ptarth on April 30, 2015, 07:18:08 PM
I'm a bigger fan of the Terraria style than Minecrafts. I support the idea that you have to find or make the recipes once (e.g., Sword of the Stars: The Pit) and then they show up to be crafted (if you have the components). Having to create them each time I find rather annoying (e.g., Craft the World).
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: topper on April 30, 2015, 08:57:20 PM
*sees new subforum

well, i guess we got an answer :)
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on April 30, 2015, 09:50:43 PM
I never could really get into Terraria.  I really loved Minecraft, and still play it every so often, but I don't play it in an advanced way and so most of the crafting is irrelevant to me.  I mean, I craft a few dozen things and that's it.  I don't get into crazy redstone circuits and so on.

In 7 Days To Die, there's not a thing that I could complain about with their crafting in v10, aside from perhaps the lack of variety you start to feel after about 50 hours (I have 70 hours in that game).  It's ludicrous to even say that, I know, because complaining about anything that gets old after 50 freaking hours is hardly a complaint.  Anyway, but I think I can do better in my own context, in a completely different way.

Don't Starve Together overall has a sort of crafting that I really liked, too, because it was very lightweight but still mattered.  That really felt like a survival game more than a scavenging game, and I like that bent.  7DTD is a mixture of survival, scavenging, and base construction.  I'd like to give that sort of feel in a sci-fi setting in 2D, with a completely different premise and different threats and combat mechanics and so on.  We'll see how the prototypes turn out when we get to that point.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: ptarth on April 30, 2015, 10:32:54 PM
What about Terraria could you not get into? It is one of a few games my wife will play with me, so in the continuum of coops, it is pretty high for me.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: mrhanman on April 30, 2015, 11:09:10 PM
You never know if perhaps that name won't stick, it is long.  But I'm fond of it. :)

I really like the name.  Kinda makes me think of a Miyazaki film for some reason.

In this particular case, the general idea is that I want to create basically the game that I hoped Don't Starve Together would be, but (for me) wasn't.  In some respects, the 2D expression of 7 Days To Die, but not really.  A bit of SPAZ inspiration, I'd say.  A whole lot of new.

I liked Don't Starve quite a bit, but it never clicked as well with me as I had hoped.  I was never able to really put my finger on why, though.  I've nearly bought 7 Days To Die a couple times, but was afraid to pull the trigger.  If you've put 70 hours into it, then I think I might give it a shot in the near future.  SPAZ was awesome.  It got repetitive toward the end, but there was a lot to like.

I always look forward to Arcen's next title, but these little tid-bits have really piqued my interest.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on April 30, 2015, 11:36:46 PM
I'm currently checking my list of games for crafting to see what I have and what I like.

Don't Starve, well, I have it, obviously and i liked the game really much. The crafting system was not very unique but if you find a rare item and craft an even rarer item from it, you get the feeling of doing soemthing great. What me bugged was the very small inventory. Especially in crafting games you want to pick a huge amount of items up, DS forces you to drop everything at your base because you cannot walkt two miles without getting a full backpack.

Terraria: I don't know what you didn't like about it, it's one of my favourite games. it has more or less a "story-like" approach on the genre because you have your goals that you have to fulfill if you want all the good stuff. However, the crafting system, while easy and more confortable to use as in Minecraft, was horrible managed. You got lost really fast in the long list of craftable items.

Miencraft: obvious the one that threw the first stone. It wasn't the first game with crafting but it was one of the first that has mastered it. The 3x3 combination grid is featured in similiar games but what I don't like is that soem crafting recipes make no sense and you have to look them uo before you get what you want. Trial and error may help in some cases but the combinations are just topo much to remember or find out them all.

Gemcraft: Recently bought but already played like mad on the internet. The game is not the typical craftigng game, but since it has the word in it's name it deserves the spot. You can basicly modify your own towers like you want, there are 9 different gems in the game that have different abilities and you can mix them like you want, creating the towers you need. That's alot of possibilites and customization.

Skyrim: You can make your own items in the game. You have to follow basic recipes but the output depends on your skills, so there is at least some varity in it.

Plague Inc: Actually not my game, the game of my girlfriend. The game is basically about crafting your own disease. You can choose from different traits and abilities. Don't like the options that are in the game? Create your own.

Stranded Deep. A game that is in an very unfinished state but I wanted it even before it got into Early Access. the crafting system works different here, you have directly in the world crafting, you don't do stuff in a sperate menu. You put the materials together and then craft it. Ths is currently still very simple but the developer said that in the future you will have the option to create different parts for tools and other craftings that you can then put together like you want. The tool will then have attributes depending on the parts used. This gives the game a lot of customization in the future but I have to wait if it's done good or bad because this is a difficult task.

Also, on PS 2, in the broadest Sense Yugioh Capsule Colloseum. It is not really a crafting recipe but you could merge or evolve owned monsters/capsules depending on the situation. Finding out the the fusions and evolutions was a bif appeal of the game for me. You use some monsters just because you want to find out if they improve and you get a new combination, even if this would cost you the victory. Nice idea in my opinion.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Pumpkin on May 01, 2015, 06:36:15 AM
About Terraria and Minecraft, which is the best about crafting is a matter of taste (2D/3D is also a question of taste).
However, compared to Minecraft, I vastly prefer Terraria for two things: content and action.

On the chapter of content, let's play a little game. Count and compare the number of recipes, weapons, enemies and bosses. On every topic and for sheer quantity, Terraria outweigh Minecraft by a factor between 10 and 100. The progression in Minecraft is long because things are hard to find; I never get to the ender world because ender pearls are just ridiculously rare and you need a ridiculous amount of them. The progression in Terraria is, IMO, much more fun because there is always a new thing to do (until the last stage, which is the winter event, IIRC): a new boss to beat, a new biome to explore, a new weapon/armor set to craft... In Minecraft, once you get diamond, you can't have anything better in term of power.

Also, Terraria plays like an action platformer. There is so many different weapons, armors, bonuses, ... players can specialize between fighter, archer and wizard, each with a tons of different styles. With Minecraft, you can get a sword, a bow and... that's it. Displacement is also very rich in Terraria: the first hook is an enormous step in exploration ability, and the first wings and the ability to fly is again an enormous step. I find there is no interesting action/fighting with Minecraft.

I realize I didn't talked about crafting, which is the core of the debate. To flush this topic, I see no difference in the pure crafting mechanic, unless Terraria has a builtin reminder of the recipes you can make (while you have the ingredients) and Minecraft doesn't. Difference is 2D/3D and action/no-action. As 2D/3D is a matter of taste, lack of action is for me too boring past some times playing. (Don't get me wrong: I played a lot on Minecraft, really more times than I can count, because 3D building is fun, but I had sooo much fun with Terraria.)

But this is not the core of what I wanted to say (sorry, I get to it a bit late).
TL;DR:
Crafting and building is fin as long as:
- it's done well (Minecraft, Terraria, Don't Starve, ... have good crafting/building)
- there is not only this (Terraria has action, Don't Starve has survival, Minecraft has nothing)
What I wanted to say to Arcen... first I thrust you all for making awesome games, no doubt about this, but about this topic: don't make a game only about crafting and building. Please, don't be an empty-shell-Minecraft.

Remember this is an opinion; I would be glad to hear why you people disagree.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 01, 2015, 08:59:54 AM
However, compared to Minecraft, I vastly prefer Terraria for two things: content and action.

Kind of why I made a point of talking about its crafting system, not the rest of the games. ;)

Anyway, the reason I like Minecraft is the 2x2/3x3 grid that has recipes that are largely logical and straight forward (some mods aside).  But the lack of an in-game lexicon for those recipes does severely hamper it.  Which is why I want something in between Terraria (only uses a lexicon, much scrolling required, hides anything you can't make so if you're lacking some resource you need to remember what) and Minecraft (only uses the grid).

NEI comes really darn close to tweaking Minecraft in the right direction.  You can look up any object by name, you can look at what the recipe for an object is, as well as what recipes use it.  It's a very powerful lexicon.  It does, however, make it very easy to cheat.

The other thing that Minecraft did well, and which many mods don't, is insuring that every item you can craft has some value other than as a crafting ingredient.  Vanilla has no recipes that I can think of that exist solely to make the end result more expensive (rare mob drops--like the nether star--don't count, those are "base materials").
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 01, 2015, 09:37:59 AM
However, compared to Minecraft, I vastly prefer Terraria for two things: content and action.

Kind of why I made a point of talking about its crafting system, not the rest of the games. ;)

Anyway, the reason I like Minecraft is the 2x2/3x3 grid that has recipes that are largely logical and straight forward (some mods aside).  But the lack of an in-game lexicon for those recipes does severely hamper it.  Which is why I want something in between Terraria (only uses a lexicon, much scrolling required, hides anything you can't make so if you're lacking some resource you need to remember what) and Minecraft (only uses the grid).

NEI comes really darn close to tweaking Minecraft in the right direction.  You can look up any object by name, you can look at what the recipe for an object is, as well as what recipes use it.  It's a very powerful lexicon.  It does, however, make it very easy to cheat.

The other thing that Minecraft did well, and which many mods don't, is insuring that every item you can craft has some value other than as a crafting ingredient.  Vanilla has no recipes that I can think of that exist solely to make the end result more expensive (rare mob drops--like the nether star--don't count, those are "base materials").
Draco, what you are looking for is "Junk jack". This game will come to this this year (hopefully) and is already aviable at the iTunes store since some years. This game is frigging awesome and it is precisely what you described: a combination of minecrafts grid system with an ingame lexicon to search for the recipes. Best thing is, you don't have to find out the recipes through trial and error, blocks that you destroy in the game have a fair chance to drop a lexicon page that unlocks one or multiple recipes. And if you don't find these pages you can go the traditional way: Use the grid and find out what builds what. If you find out soemthing new it is immidatly written down in the crafting book.

I should be ashamed that I've totally forgotten about those game. It's my favourite craftong game of all times. It is also in other aspects close to minecraft and terraria and features the best of both. There was soem stuff I missed in terraria and stuff I missed in minecraft.
Junk Jack features multiple "planets/worlds" to unlock which have different themes, their own biomes, enemies, loot and so on. To get to the enxt planet you have to find three portal pieces on the planet before. The first one is Terra (earth) and after taht you get to Seth (desert/egyptian world). The different planets are unique in their appearance and if you are searchign for specific items you have to look on the right planet.
It also features encrusting of equipment (you can find gems and socket them into your tools for special bonuses), alchemy (you can mix 3 ingridents together and find out potions, works similiar as in TES games), a LOT of decoration, farmign (that's what I really missed in Terraria), COOKING (missed this in both Terraria AND Minecraft, Minecraft had some basic recipes but nothing special) and much more.
Also you can toggle ALWAYS between peaceful and survival mode in your world instead of creating different worlds or characters that ae specialized. You can use your character and everything he carries in other worlds you create (Terraria).

Stuff that isn't in it: Bosses. There are some harder neemies that you could count as mini bosses but besides that there are no big bosses like in Terraria or Minecraft and it does not seem that anything is planned like that.
Logic circuits. They are planned for the Steam version but ae not in the iOS version.
NPCs. If you do not count animals or Monsters to them of course.
Long term goal. Minecraft had one, terraria had one. Junk Jack has only the goal to find all portal pieces and unlock all planets, afterwards it's up to you. You can try to find rare loot or create the strongest equipment, eat all the cooking recipes... But because of the above points of not having NPCs or Bosses you will come to an end at some point.

The building style is more similiar to minecraft in the way that you have blocks and not the tiny pseudo-blocks in Terraria. The whole game has because of this a blocky appearance but players have shown really crazy stuff that you can make with this.
(http://wiki.pixbits.com/images/1/10/Mandenhouse.jpg)
(http://wiki.pixbits.com/images/a/a2/Wack3jobubblehouse.png)
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 01, 2015, 09:44:51 AM
Neat :)
I'd prefer Minecraft's FP perspective than Terraria's side-scrolling 2D, but we can't have everything (and I recognize that a 2D game is easier to make).
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 01, 2015, 09:52:41 AM
3D games on iOS are difficult to make and that's what the game was launched on. The Steam version is an extra that was wished long for by fans and is finally being developed.
And I cannot say that I prefer 2D or 3D. it depends on the game. And the 3D controls of Minecrafta re ANNOYNING in iOS, so I'm more happy that it's 2D.
Also, the game is only dione by two guys, one for the code and graphics, the other for the sound. Les speople as on Minecraft and Terraria.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on May 01, 2015, 10:09:45 AM
It's honestly one of those "x factor" things for both my wife and I.  We started playing, and weren't really feeling connected to anything for whatever reason.  We didn't know fully what we were doing, and didn't feel super inspired to find out or to go exploring.  It's really pretty much as simple as that -- we had other games that were more interesting to us personally, so we played those.  It's nothing against the game, it just didn't click with us and so we moved on.  I still plan to go back to that game, and I tried to get my son to watch it with me, but he thought it was boring.  It's a game I think I would like if I got to play it more steadily.

But there are a lot of games where we just have this instant "click" connection with in some fashion, and since there were enough of those, they won out over Terraria at the time.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: ptarth on May 01, 2015, 12:38:34 PM
When you have a spare 20 hours, you should watch TB & Jesse attempt to play Terraria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fW4MTJvRs&list=PL56B73C4D478D9A49
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 01, 2015, 12:55:49 PM
We didn't know fully what we were doing, and didn't feel super inspired to find out or to go exploring.  It's really pretty much as simple as that -- we had other games that were more interesting to us personally, so we played those.

That's exactly how I felt about Starbound.  The "tutorial" quests only take you up to "killing the UFO" and not beyond that (so I never figured out how to power my own space ship and go to other planets) and I felt no drive to explore.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 01, 2015, 03:12:24 PM
We didn't know fully what we were doing, and didn't feel super inspired to find out or to go exploring.  It's really pretty much as simple as that -- we had other games that were more interesting to us personally, so we played those.

That's exactly how I felt about Starbound.  The "tutorial" quests only take you up to "killing the UFO" and not beyond that (so I never figured out how to power my own space ship and go to other planets) and I felt no drive to explore.
Have you played the new update? They imrpoved the game a lot with a big quest chain, new bosses (the first boss is not the UFO anymore, teh UFO is now the second Boss), dungeons (you cannot destroy blocks in there), overhauled a lot of the systems like the energy system, food system and many more, you can now capture animals and much more.
The game feels a lot more entertaining than before, but is still unfinished and you will eventually come to an end. But you have now a lot more to go as before.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 01, 2015, 03:31:34 PM
No, and frankly, "meh."

I might take a peek in the Far Future, but not right now.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 01, 2015, 03:53:28 PM
Okay, I won't try to convince you. Since you said you prefer the 3D style over 2D it might not be the right game for you.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 01, 2015, 04:20:14 PM
Okay, I won't try to convince you. Since you said you prefer the 3D style over 2D it might not be the right game for you.

Possible.  Not that I have anything against 2D games, I just think that it doesn't suit the exploration genre that well.

(By "exploration genre" I mean games that are more focused on exploring than on aspect.  Rogue Legacy is primarily a side-scrolling platformer combat game, so while there is exploration involved, the bulk of the gameplay centers on the combat).

Speaking of combat, I really dislike Terraria/Starbound's combat.  And I have no idea why.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 01, 2015, 04:40:23 PM
Maybe because it is simply and still entertaining. I mean, you don't do much more as spamming the attack buton, but you have to evade attacks, jump around... it feels a lot like the Mega Man X games in that way.

3D exploration/crafting games have the reputation of not getting properly finished. Starforge was a huge disaster and the developers try the exact same thing with their new game. They don't learn it soemhow.

Fortress Craft has soem nice ideas like modular machines that you can customize like you want, creating crazy machien set ups, but curently it is mostly designed around mining and there is a huge lack of updates. Also they don't seem to have an actual goal what to add, they add stuff totally randomly and it does not make any sense. Also, looking after your temperature all the time is annoying as hell.

There might be better ones (except Minecraft) but I cannot think of one.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Cyborg on May 03, 2015, 10:00:12 PM
I don't really like most crafting/exploring games. Minecraft is okay because you can create things from your own imagination out of the basic building blocks you get from crafting. Other crafting titles don't come near as close because it devolves into an arbitrary timesink by the developer to gate content. Collect three of these, collect ten of those, make five of these, and then we will let you see the next part of the game. Takes too long, and I have too many other games for that to keep my interest. Doesn't work anymore in 2015.


I should add, the best games I know are the ones that make you forget that you are at the beginning of the game. They are the games that weave fun into the very game itself so it doesn't feel like work. World of Warcraft did crafting way before minecraft, and you may remember the work ethic by which people would collect reagents for crafting. Hordes of players would descend like locusts upon very small areas to farm pieces of whatever. You would see races to the spawn points for ore. Honestly, it wasn't fun, but we did it because it was the gateway to the next part of the game, and you didn't want to be left behind. Riches were promised around the next corner, and your guild was anxiously awaiting more players for molten core. And not just more players, well-equipped players!


Crafting can be miserable, and I can't say I'm all that excited about a crafting title because of the bad memories. But, seeing as this is an arcen title, I'm sure there will be some intelligent twist and bringing out the fun from what has been a fairly traumatic history for crafting games.



Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: wwwhhattt on May 04, 2015, 06:21:10 AM
It's not not really a SHMUP at all anymore, heh.
Is the SHMUP base from TLF still there, or has that been left behind once more, waiting for the next game to grow up and leave it?
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: MaskityMask on May 05, 2015, 02:53:54 AM
I dunno, Metroid style games are great exploration games and they are 2d :p

Anyhoo, I can't really talk about crafting much since I actually dislike crafting in all games even though I do like some crafting games, like Terraria for example <_< I just feel it makes things blander since things you craft are probably better than items you find and it just feels bizarre to me that your character is master of combat and smithy. Survival crafting games are little better in that aspect, but scavenging for scraps to make better stuff out of can get frustrating easily.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 05, 2015, 10:03:59 AM
it just feels bizarre to me that your character is master of combat and smithy. Survival crafting games are little better in that aspect, but scavenging for scraps to make better stuff out of can get frustrating easily.

Hence why I think Minecraft does it well.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that smooshing some ingots onto a stick with your bare hands gives you a sword, but it matches the rest of the game's abstracted aesthetic.  Of the few alternate smithing methods I've seen in mods (notably TFC) I haven't liked in the long run.  It gets tedious and boring quickly.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on May 05, 2015, 10:04:59 AM
Crafting can be miserable, and I can't say I'm all that excited about a crafting title because of the bad memories. But, seeing as this is an arcen title, I'm sure there will be some intelligent twist and bringing out the fun from what has been a fairly traumatic history for crafting games.

I couldn't agree with you more on how horrible they can be.  Keith noted to me: "Though I thought you said you were done with crafting systems ;)"

And my response to him (and now you) was:

Yeah, this is true -- but that was before I found some games that actually did it in a way I like, heh.  In Minecraft there was a crafting system I found passable, and then there were various other games that I outright disliked the crafting in, and so my previous statement was based on that.  I absolutely love the crafting systems in 7 Days To Die and Don't Starve Together, so now I've seen a way of doing crafting that I can get behind (and that are both Steam top sellers, incidentally).  Seeing it done in a way that was able to engage me for 70 hours and 5 hours respectively is a big deal for me.  Don't Starve Together ultimately lost us because of reasons unrelated to its crafting, but rather its respawn system and in general the feeling of sluggishness and sameyness in exploration.

It's not not really a SHMUP at all anymore, heh.
Is the SHMUP base from TLF still there, or has that been left behind once more, waiting for the next game to grow up and leave it?

No enormous promises as yet, but that general set of mechanics is something that I do intend to still have for the game.  For me, a survival game needs to have a few things to be fun:

a. Big risk of death, and thus tension.

b. Some sort of combat system that isn't boring (the SHMUP style, somewhat toned down in terms of level of frenetic-ness, would be really unusual for that and thus I think good).

c. A feeling of fluidity and quickness of play, so that I'm not feeling like I'm in molasses all the time or just having my time wasted in repetitive easy tasks.  I'll note that in 7D2D I have all the crafting timers turned off, and the damage against blocks modded up so that we can mine and chop super fast.

d. A feeling of scarcity, which is still possible even with the fluidity there.  A SHMUP where you are venturing out with limited fuel and ammo and health would be very different indeed.  Then it's not about just aiming and dodging, which means that the enemies don't have to be so elaborate in their patterns and so on in order to be of any interest at all.  Instead it becomes a matter of precision, which feeds back into (a).

e. A sense of exploration and interesting things to find.  This is always really hard to do, and just having it be purely in outer space would make this all but impossible.

f. Some sort of base-building aspect is nice, when possible, but in a 2D game in particular I don't want to be trying to build houses out of whole cloth or whatever.  I want to put my mark on things, for sure, and maybe make a "mothership" that is my home base into something that was once a boring shell of a thing and is instead this big old powerful hunk of junk by the end.

Anyhoo, I can't really talk about crafting much since I actually dislike crafting in all games even though I do like some crafting games, like Terraria for example <_< I just feel it makes things blander since things you craft are probably better than items you find and it just feels bizarre to me that your character is master of combat and smithy. Survival crafting games are little better in that aspect, but scavenging for scraps to make better stuff out of can get frustrating easily.

That's one of the things I like about 7D2D.  You can't just build guns, for instance.  You have to find those, so those are exciting.  But they degrade over time, and so you can either repair them or if you want backups you can break down spare guns you have for parts and then learn how to make new ones out of molds.  That's pretty awesome.

But at the same time, bullets are not ANYWHERE, and so instead I'm collecting all this brass, lead, and a few other things, and crafting bullets out of that.  In a forge where I can just leave it sitting and it does its thing over time without me, like glass in Minecraft.  Not being a wizard that crafts everything is really good, I think.

But there again, being able to take wood and craft a variety of upgrades for my fort, and taking scrap metal and doing the same, is great.  Why would there be a bunch of spikes lying around the world, for instance?  Me taking wood and making those makes good sense.  And when I go get wood from whatever source, it's actually useful because I can craft so many things out of that, and I'm not limited to just "oh I found spikes, hope I find some more someday."  So that flexibility is something I value there.

I think it all comes down to execution with stuff like that.  That's a huge part of why I never liked crafting games in the past, is because I'd never seen them executed in a way that was pleasing to me personally.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 05, 2015, 10:15:17 AM
+1 X's post.
I'll have to try Don't Starve and 7 Days to Die at some point.  I haven't been gaming much at all lately (sad muzzle) so it might be a while.  Just last week I made an offhand comment to a friend that I "might get around to playing [some game] by March or so."
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: ptarth on May 05, 2015, 10:41:30 AM
No enormous promises as yet, but that general set of mechanics is something that I do intend to still have for the game.  For me, a survival game needs to have a few things to be fun:

a. Big risk of death, and thus tension.

b. Some sort of combat system that isn't boring (the SHMUP style, somewhat toned down in terms of level of frenetic-ness, would be really unusual for that and thus I think good).

d. A feeling of scarcity, which is still possible even with the fluidity there.  A SHMUP where you are venturing out with limited fuel and ammo and health would be very different indeed.  Then it's not about just aiming and dodging, which means that the enemies don't have to be so elaborate in their patterns and so on in order to be of any interest at all.  Instead it becomes a matter of precision, which feeds back into (a).

e. A sense of exploration and interesting things to find.  This is always really hard to do, and just having it be purely in outer space would make this all but impossible.


Sunless Sea recently came out and it captures portions of this. The combat in it is bad. But the raw feeling of terror it evokes in resource management and exploring the unknown is #1. TB did a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2n4LxW2RbM

The other comparison I would add is: Star Control 2 (Publisher released legal Freeware version: http://sc2.sourceforge.net/downloads.php). I love SC2 combat so much. Its crafting system was pretty basic (resources turn into generic crafting points).  And of course it is one of the most epic adventure and exploration games.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 05, 2015, 12:30:51 PM
Btw, in the "venture out with limited fuel to find resources" vein:

Avoid the mistake made by Kaiju A-go-go, in which the "fun" gameplay involves using special abilities, which use up the Power resource, but if you run out of Power (and your base shuts down, as a result) farming cities for Power is an exercise in tedium because you can't use any of your specials and are left with the auto-attack.

I've got nothing against a bullet-scarce game, but leave me with a variety of interesting options even when ammo runs out.

If you have to, use grapple arms and combat axes (http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/outlawstar/images/4/4a/Outlaw_Star_Grappler_arms_%281%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140314050726).
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Cyborg on May 05, 2015, 08:45:31 PM
It must be a certain type of gamer that likes this stuff. I always stop reading whenever I see the word "crafting" in a game description. It's like, "Oh great, this game is offering me a job."



Just for comparison, consider the predecessor of crafting- "player modification." You can see this in a game like borderlands, which lets you customize your character with your gear choices. You can see this in almost every RPG, including pen and paper. I believe that this is the original crafting mechanism, the idea that you can create something out of parts (such as a character) to accomplish a unique purpose, to play the way you want to play.


And in that itch, I see it scratched by minecraft style crafting, but less so in something like terraria. In the latter, you're not really tweaking stats all that much, you're just trying to get the best gear for when you unlock bosses. It's still fun, but the crafting is less fun because I never felt like I was creating my own character. I was just trying to unlock some incredible weaponry so I could take down a boss.


Back to World of Warcraft, it was a lot of fun creating my own style character until it was time for raids. Now, there was an optimal gear set, and all of the crafting becomes deterministic in that way. All the choice has disappeared, but you are still out there collecting like it's your job. And it was. Five or six days a week of dungeon nights, and in your free time collecting reagents. I can't believe I ever did that. It's my shame as a gamer that I ever ran on that stupid treadmill.


Never again.


I want all my games to have that special sauce without feeling like I'm doing work. Crafting just has brought out the worst in games lately, at least in my opinion. We're not customizing anymore, we are not playing our way, we are just playing glorified canasta with digital rag dolls.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 05, 2015, 11:11:46 PM
We're not customizing anymore, we are not playing our way, we are just playing glorified canasta with digital rag dolls.

I hear ya.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: wwwhhattt on May 06, 2015, 12:35:50 AM
Sunless Sea recently came out and it captures portions of this. The combat in it is bad. But the raw feeling of terror it evokes in resource management and exploring the unknown is #1.
This sprung to my mind too - realising that I didn't have enough fuel or supplies to make it back to London, and that the only option was to keep going forward on the chance that there might be some hope ahead led to one of my favourite recent gaming moments. Also cannibalism and mutiny.

Exploration + limited fuel definitely seems like a winning formula, as long as there appears to be a chance that risky exploration might be rewarded.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 06, 2015, 03:22:43 AM
Sunless Sea has also some basic crafting. basic in that way that you have some fixed recipes (I think 3-5 recipes, I need to look up again) and these recipes need rare items that you can find in the game. The outcome is an equipable item for yiur ship that increases its stats. Maybe they will expand the idea further int he future.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Misery on May 18, 2015, 03:42:33 AM
It's not not really a SHMUP at all anymore, heh.  New name, too!

Bahhhh, really?  Ugh, I'd been looking forward to all the bullet dodging and stuff like that, too, for all sorts of really obvious reasons.   Not enough developers make stuff like this recently, or I guess I should say, not enough of them make them WELL.  Uninspired patterns (lack of complexity there instantly kills the game in question for me without exception; this is why the pattern designs I did ended up having such high variance and complicated interlocking bits among them, because anything less bores me) & scoring design usually, and I get bored fast by those things.   Coming from you guys, I'd figured such a thing would not really have issues like that.   TLF's combat side sure manages to avoid the usual problems.  Though of course it's turn-based, so not QUITE the same thing.

On the note of crafting games, that's not quite as exciting to me (though I do love the genre) and it'd be a hard time making one that stands out right now.  Though, considering the type of design styles you guys generally use, you'd have an easier time about it than most would.


I want all my games to have that special sauce without feeling like I'm doing work. Crafting just has brought out the worst in games lately, at least in my opinion. We're not customizing anymore, we are not playing our way, we are just playing glorified canasta with digital rag dolls.

I think it *really* depends on the game in question about that part.

One of the biggest reasons why I think that Minecraft is such a hit is that it doesnt put arbitrary restrictions on anything with damn silly quests or something.  I can do things *my* way.  I dont have to go collect 30 magical whatsits in order to get my crafting table to open up some stupid new feature.  I just gather resources to make whatever it is I'm after (and many things have more ways to get them than just by crafting), and usually each resource can be used for a huge number of other things too.  My usual first goal in any given world is to open a Nether portal.  The game cannot tell me not to, it doesnt dictate that I have to go beat up some stupid boss first.  Heck, even though the portal needs obsidian, I dont *need* to go get diamonds (to mine the obsidian) if I dont feel like it; a bucket and a lava pool will get me the portal just the same.

Wheras other games have trouble with that aspect. Usually alot of trouble.  Like Starbound with it's heavily gated... everything.

As much as I like the genre, I end up having alot of problems with many of the games in it.

Terraria for instance.  I know everyone freaking LOVES it, but I get bored by it.  One of the biggest reasons is the combat.  It quickly becomes UTTERLY MINDLESS.  Basically every boss in the game is just a gear-check.  Whenever I watch anyone playing this (and when I play it myself), boss fights are sooooooo boring.  Because your character ends up overpowered, and you just can fly all over the place, shoot a bazillion lasers, and you dont have to dodge ANYTHING, because your armor will handle it.  And when this ISNT the case, it's mindless sword swinging against enemies with simplistic attack patterns.  Starbound is even worse about this, where the enemies are *very* simplistic.  ....also the blocks are FREAKING TINY in Terraria and digging/mining takes bloody forever.  And the progression... ugh.  I honestly dont like a sense of linear progression in a game of this sort whatsoever.  It eventually hits about where you cant go any further, because there ISNT any further to go.  Minecraft doesnt have that; I dont just start using diamonds for some things and then never need to use iron/stone/leather for things ever again (which is what Terraria does; something like copper never needs to be mined again once you're at the next "tier" of equipment, because it has no conceivable use other than making the now obsolete copper equipment).  In Minecraft, I'm still goling to be making TONS of iron equipment even when I have found alot of diamonds, and I'm always going to be mining iron (or whatever) because it always has about a bazillion other uses as well.   Alot of games of this sort screw up this aspect badly, at least in my opinion.

Dont Starve:  Too slow-paced for me.  Everything takes forever, and some of the mechanics just feel really arbitrary to me.

Uhhh.... I was going to list more here, but I cant remember half of it now.


Someone mentioned Junk Jack though, and I *will* second that one.  The game is great.  It's one of those games that shows that mobile games need not be hyper simple, and there's an absolutely stupid amount of content in it and many ways to approach any situation.  And it's CONSTANTLY getting large addons.    I'd looooooooove for this game to hit the PC as well (because holding the ipad for long periods of time causes trouble for me).  It's just so very good.

There's definitely others I can recommend, as I've played so many of them, but I'm blanking out on names here, probably because it's about time for me to have a meal.  I can ramble about those a bit later.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 18, 2015, 04:44:33 PM
I have to say, I'm not really good at SHMUPs nor am I a big fan of them. I have some and I play only a small number of them from time to time.
I played the hell out of Steel Saviour because this game was beautoful designed and while being hard as  hell it got me inetrested to keep going. That's mostly because of the handdrawn, surreal designed enemies. You just wanted to see what crazy enemies will await you next. Also the game had some really unfair moments. Most levels had multiple mid bosses that you could fight or try to flee from plus the end boss at the end of the level.
There was this... elephant ship thing that had two phases. The first was to throw sea mines at you that you had to destory to minimize their explosion, the other one was out of the water where it shot with multiple cannons at you and you had to destroy every cannon.
There were other, harder mid bosses, I cannot remember all unfortunately.
Enemy Mind was another one that caught my interest. It was very unique in gameplay because you controlled some kind if "virus" that hacked other ships to control them. You could dimply swap ships in every level and every ship had their own weapons and abiliteis that you could use. Also unlike other SHMUPs you had only limited ammo on your main weapon, forcing you to switch ships after you've run out of ammo. After each level you hear a little monlogue depending on what ship you currently hold and on what your behaviour was during battle. Interestign wa salso, that there are different factions that do not only target you but also ships of the other factions of they can.
This game had slapped "unusual gameplay" all over it.


here, I was the one that mentioned JJ *raises hand*.
I think Junk Jack is also a good example that mobile games don't have to be free/freemium to be a success. Junk Jack has a full price slapped on it that is not even cheap (I think JJX costs 4,50) and still is well praised and often bought. I instant bought JJX when it came out and I will probably do the same to Junk Jack Steam.
I am however curios how this will play it. Junk jack is known for selling cosmetics (with special but optional abilities) in their ingame shop. Will those cosmetics be for free in the PC version? Will they be purchasable DLC? Or will they get removed entirely? Also I'm curious if the circuits that are announced for PC will be in the iOS version as well.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Tolc on May 18, 2015, 07:35:50 PM
Terraria for instance.  I know everyone freaking LOVES it, but I get bored by it.  One of the biggest reasons is the combat.  It quickly becomes UTTERLY MINDLESS.  Basically every boss in the game is just a gear-check.  Whenever I watch anyone playing this (and when I play it myself), boss fights are sooooooo boring.  Because your character ends up overpowered, and you just can fly all over the place, shoot a bazillion lasers, and you dont have to dodge ANYTHING, because your armor will handle it. 

One of the Terraria fans here: I agree with some of your arguments, but I don't think they are a downside per se. Boss gear-check for example is fine by me: Just the feeling of accomplishment after finally beating the boss that surprised you and beat the shit out of you the first time you met him, makes it work in my opinion. And to be fair, once you progress further into the game you just can't tank the bosses anymore even with the (at this point) best available equipment...(not including the pre nerf spectre armor).

And when this ISNT the case, it's mindless sword swinging against enemies with simplistic attack patterns.  Starbound is even worse about this, where the enemies are *very* simplistic.
That's true, however, and partially due to the 2D nature of the game, I think.

....also the blocks are FREAKING TINY in Terraria and digging/mining takes bloody forever.
Did you ever try the picksaw? I don't know about you, but if that's not fast digging...;) Plus as of one of the latest patches there's a toggle to enable automatic block targeting (might not be the best phrasing...)

And the progression... ugh.  I honestly dont like a sense of linear progression in a game of this sort whatsoever.  It eventually hits about where you cant go any further, because there ISNT any further to go.  Minecraft doesnt have that; I dont just start using diamonds for some things and then never need to use iron/stone/leather for things ever again (which is what Terraria does; something like copper never needs to be mined again once you're at the next "tier" of equipment, because it has no conceivable use other than making the now obsolete copper equipment).  In Minecraft, I'm still goling to be making TONS of iron equipment even when I have found alot of diamonds, and I'm always going to be mining iron (or whatever) because it always has about a bazillion other uses as well.   Alot of games of this sort screw up this aspect badly, at least in my opinion.

Well, copper, iron, etc. *do* have further uses beyond weapons and armor... Personally, it didn't feel like a linear progression to me, because you don't have set quests or goals, but you're always exploring and finding new things.

The main difference, I think, is that Minecraft is more of a "sandbox" game, whereas Terraria has some platforming, progress, "story", (insert word I just can't come up with here...) feel to it. I haven't played Minecraft, though, so keep that in mind. It always looked kind of boring to me (comparable to your description of Terraria bossfights above ;)).

Not trying to convince you or anything, just giving my view on things you mentioned :)

Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Misery on May 19, 2015, 09:54:36 AM
Terraria for instance.  I know everyone freaking LOVES it, but I get bored by it.  One of the biggest reasons is the combat.  It quickly becomes UTTERLY MINDLESS.  Basically every boss in the game is just a gear-check.  Whenever I watch anyone playing this (and when I play it myself), boss fights are sooooooo boring.  Because your character ends up overpowered, and you just can fly all over the place, shoot a bazillion lasers, and you dont have to dodge ANYTHING, because your armor will handle it. 

One of the Terraria fans here: I agree with some of your arguments, but I don't think they are a downside per se. Boss gear-check for example is fine by me: Just the feeling of accomplishment after finally beating the boss that surprised you and beat the shit out of you the first time you met him, makes it work in my opinion. And to be fair, once you progress further into the game you just can't tank the bosses anymore even with the (at this point) best available equipment...(not including the pre nerf spectre armor).

And when this ISNT the case, it's mindless sword swinging against enemies with simplistic attack patterns.  Starbound is even worse about this, where the enemies are *very* simplistic.
That's true, however, and partially due to the 2D nature of the game, I think.

....also the blocks are FREAKING TINY in Terraria and digging/mining takes bloody forever.
Did you ever try the picksaw? I don't know about you, but if that's not fast digging...;) Plus as of one of the latest patches there's a toggle to enable automatic block targeting (might not be the best phrasing...)

And the progression... ugh.  I honestly dont like a sense of linear progression in a game of this sort whatsoever.  It eventually hits about where you cant go any further, because there ISNT any further to go.  Minecraft doesnt have that; I dont just start using diamonds for some things and then never need to use iron/stone/leather for things ever again (which is what Terraria does; something like copper never needs to be mined again once you're at the next "tier" of equipment, because it has no conceivable use other than making the now obsolete copper equipment).  In Minecraft, I'm still goling to be making TONS of iron equipment even when I have found alot of diamonds, and I'm always going to be mining iron (or whatever) because it always has about a bazillion other uses as well.   Alot of games of this sort screw up this aspect badly, at least in my opinion.

Well, copper, iron, etc. *do* have further uses beyond weapons and armor... Personally, it didn't feel like a linear progression to me, because you don't have set quests or goals, but you're always exploring and finding new things.

The main difference, I think, is that Minecraft is more of a "sandbox" game, whereas Terraria has some platforming, progress, "story", (insert word I just can't come up with here...) feel to it. I haven't played Minecraft, though, so keep that in mind. It always looked kind of boring to me (comparable to your description of Terraria bossfights above ;)).

Not trying to convince you or anything, just giving my view on things you mentioned :)

Hm, mostly the gear-check thing bugs me because it feels like a badly made JRPG; the sort where there's some powerful boss, but you dont beat it with tactics or thinking or skill, you beat it by squashing rats for 20 hours (how anyone finds that fun in JRPGs, I'll never know) so you're levelled up, then you go into the fight and just hit the "attack" command over and over and over until the boss is dead.  Even Minecraft has a gear-check boss (the Wither), and I consider it to be the 2nd worst-designed thing in the game (seriously, it's not a fight.  Get diamond armor, enchant armor, stand in front of the thing and click alot.  And then the REWARD from it is the #1 worst designed thing in the game).   And overall whenever a game of any genre pulls this one, it feels like the devs just honestly couldnt figure out how to balance things.  It's like, why program all these bosses with all these elaborate attacks if I'm going to just ignore all of that, sit on their heads, and click them into oblivion?

It's also a sticking point for me simply because I need a challenge in order to hold my nearly nonexistent patience... which that concept doesnt provide.


I forgot whatever else I was going to say.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on May 19, 2015, 09:59:45 AM
+1 from me.

I recently had to kickstart another company's designers to create enemies that were something other than "punch it in the face until it falls over."  They've turned a game that I enjoyed playing a year ago into a Skinner Box that is so pointlessly unrewarding that the "*Force compulsion* play me!" mechanics actually make me go play something else instead.

It may be a while before any fruits of that come to pass, though.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Tridus on October 07, 2015, 05:46:50 PM
If you're going to make a crafting/building game, I hope you make something like Capitalism. :) That was a game where you run a business and create products, market them, and such. Was quite a lot of fun, and I thin it's something Arcen could do well. Could probably even bring back multiplayer in it.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on October 08, 2015, 09:21:24 AM
One thing I should make clear is that this not a game that has crafting or building at all anymore.  Go figure! -\o/-

(That's the space hulk shrug.)
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: steelwing on October 08, 2015, 09:41:59 AM
One thing I should make clear is that this not a game that has crafting or building at all anymore.  Go figure! -\o/-

(That's the space hulk shrug.)
No crafting at all?  What did this game turn into, then, since it's now completely different from what it was first imagined to be?
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on October 08, 2015, 10:06:06 AM
One thing I should make clear is that this not a game that has crafting or building at all anymore.  Go figure! -\o/-

(That's the space hulk shrug.)
No crafting at all?  What did this game turn into, then, since it's now completely different from what it was first imagined to be?

It's more of a roguelike than anything else.  Thematically speaking it's still the same idea in terms of setting, etc.  But in terms of how exactly you go about doing your activities, I've come across other games more recently that really speak to me much better in terms of mechanics for how to handle progression and whatnot.  I don't want to start making comparisons to other games just at this moment, though.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: steelwing on October 08, 2015, 10:29:46 AM
Ah, understood.  So it'll look a bit more like Bionic Dues, then, but with more "active survival" mechanics (a la Minecraft, where you have to deal with a day/night cycle and monsters trying to kill you).
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on October 08, 2015, 03:30:47 PM
A little more traditional roguelike than that, in that it will have runs and then persistence outside of that.  Rogue Legacy or some other ones like that might be the closest comparison point, although they're still really far off.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: crazyroosterman on October 09, 2015, 08:36:17 PM
so will you ever make a .survival game. in the true séance of the word in the far future?.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: wwwhhattt on October 11, 2015, 12:34:13 AM
so will you ever make a .survival game. in the true séance of the world in the far future?.
I know it's not what you meant, but I now need a game where you have to help some future guy survive and you can only communicate with them through séances. All you'd know about the future would come from educated guesses based on the present, and how well the séance works would depend on how accurately you went through the rituals. Asymmetric multiplayer, maybe.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on October 11, 2015, 11:33:55 AM
so will you ever make a .survival game. in the true [sense] of the word in the far future?.

I honestly don't know!  It's certainly a possibility, but I'm getting a bit weary of that genre the more I play it.  I'd have to have a really good hook to get myself interested in it.

That's usually a good sign that I will eventually do something: I like that thing, but then get bored of what's on the market, and then come up with something to rekindle my personal interest in it.  But right now I don't have any particular ideas (and am not seeking any, for the record -- my mind is full enough with the new game, heh).
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: crazyroosterman on October 11, 2015, 02:42:03 PM
so will you ever make a .survival game. in the true [sense] of the word in the far future?.

I honestly don't know!  It's certainly a possibility, but I'm getting a bit weary of that genre the more I play it.  I'd have to have a really good hook to get myself interested in it.

That's usually a good sign that I will eventually do something: I like that thing, but then get bored of what's on the market, and then come up with something to rekindle my personal interest in it.  But right now I don't have any particular ideas (and am not seeking any, for the record -- my mind is full enough with the new game, heh).
no problem the main game I've played from that genre love that game even though I'm terrible at it like I said the far future.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: NichG on January 24, 2016, 12:17:02 AM
For me, the thing I like in building games is when I can make things that then actually 'do something', not because I used the 'do something' block but because of the ways that the various elements work together. I loved making canals in Minecraft that would deliver items automatically to a central collection point, or elevators or things like that. That's part of what I felt like Terraria was missing for me - most of the stuff you build is just aesthetic, not functional; or its baked-in functions like 'build the workstation/furnace/etc and make sure you have one of each' type stuff. Usually the point where Dwarf Fortress gets boring for me is when I've basically finished wiring up the things that need to be wired up to survive, but then there's no goals that I need to design and build in order to reach - its just accumulation or checking the tick boxes for necessary structures - got enough beds?, got enough food?, etc.

I like the idea in abstract that at first you're doing everything yourself, and then you gradually build up automation into the world that lets you extend your agency and scope. Instead of accumulating items in an inventory, you accumulate structures you've added to the world which work together to let you do things in new ways or just on very large scales. I haven't quite figured out the right way to gamify that idea though, in part because requiring things to function through interaction rather than identity is a lot harder to control. The result often ends up being something more like an physics or ALife simulation than an actual game.

If I really want to go off the deep-end with this, I could imagine boiling this down to constructing different kinds of autonomous intelligences that actually become your swarm that you control. So instead of just building physical structures, you're building behaviors that you can deploy - starting from individual custom-crafted robot butlers, and then turning into self-replicating robot swarms and robot societies that you're only controlling indirectly or hierarchically by the end-game. So at the beginning you take your pick and mine out some silicon for chips, but by the end you say 'go, my minions, and eat that planet over there and build me a new factory' or something like that.

Edit: Wow, I just noticed that the above post was kinda old, sorry about that... would there be a better place to bring this up?
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Sounds on January 25, 2016, 01:39:34 AM
What about Terraria could you not get into? It is one of a few games my wife will play with me, so in the continuum of coops, it is pretty high for me.

This is pretty much my wife and kids go to co-op game. The crafting, room building and the craziness of stumbling upon the various goody bags (kids term) and having a heated discussion about sharing rights. :P

One memorable play through was a Saturday night when the wife made the call at the start of the night that kids were only allowed 1 hour and then its off to bed. I look up at the clock and its now 11pm (4 hours had passed). Thinking the wife would be mad I suggested we call it a night. The response from the wife: "just give me 5 more minutes". Wow I thought I was in the wrong house. :)

It seems the game really clicked for her, because the next morning (when I dragged myself out of bed) I could hear the distinct sounds of Terrarria coming from the veranda. It seems the wife had gotten up in the middle of the night and had continued to play. When I enquired what she was doing, "I need to finish the 20 story tree house so the kids play in it.". Yeah right. She sure was hooked. :D 
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: x4000 on January 25, 2016, 05:03:57 PM
It was Minecraft for a while for my wife and I, and then it's been 7 Days To Die for the last couple of years.  We sure are hooked.  We never have been able to really get into Terraria for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: NichG on January 25, 2016, 07:17:42 PM
Most recently for me, Space Engineers. There was a long period where it was kinda eh, but since they added planets there's somewhat of a sense of progression involved in managing to get back into space, so I ended up putting in another 10-20 hours messing around there. It didn't really hold up in the sense of encouraging me to build mega-projects though, unlike Minecraft where I've made insane puzzle dungeons for friends to run through and things like that.

Also, oddly enough, I was more drawn in by the town-building stuff in Fallout 4 than the actual plot/shooter gameplay.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 26, 2016, 12:52:41 AM
I don't know about 7 Days to die but I really like Fortresscraft Evolved. A lot of people say it's like "Minecraft with Mods" but I cannot confirm this because I always play Minecraft like it is.
It has the same block design like Minecraft but takes building to a new level. It's mostly about building the machines you like with conveyor belts for resource transportation, laser emitters for power management and even simple tower defense elements. When you generate more power, wasps start to attack your base and you have to defend with turrets against them.
It's a really cool game and my favourite of the 3D sandbox games.
Title: Re: Will Arcen ever make a Crafting/Building game?
Post by: Draco18s on January 26, 2016, 01:21:08 AM
I always play Minecraft like it is.

I am really super picky with mods.  I liked TerraFirmaCraft in some respects and not others, made up a whole bunch of notes on how I'd really like Minecraft to be, and eventually took a stab at making it.  Some of my ideas were bunk or things I realized would violate what I liked about vanilla, but other things were super satisfying changes.

I called it Reasonable Realism (http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding/minecraft-mods/2451299-reasonable-realism-its-a-pack-its-a-mod-it-makes).  One of the things that fell into place and was intensely enjoyable was the Prospecting (http://reasonable-realism.wikia.com/wiki/Prospecting) system.  I have to thank my uncle for putting me on track, there, of course.