Author Topic: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.  (Read 1318 times)

Offline x4000

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Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« on: September 08, 2013, 12:10:35 PM »
For people who have questions, please put them here and I'll use those to help formulate... something... for a tutorial.  We'll get to that later.  For now just knowing the questions will help later define what the added in-game stuff will be to help give you the same information in a better format.  Note this thread is for questions only, not suggestions.

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Cyborg: on the city map, where am I supposed to go? I have just been picking whatever sounds good and playing those maps.

That's about the size of it, really.  You aren't out to go anywhere, you're out to improve yourself or weaken your enemies as much as possible during the 50 days (or less if you attack robot command stations).  But there's no one place for the final battle that you have to get to, or anything: the robots are coming to you!

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Cyborg: as I am moving my robot through a level, there are explosions going on. My enemy seems to be self-destructing without my doing anything. Is that normal?

It may be that there are some razorbots out there attacking the other bots, or that there are some mines that enemies are stepping on.  If I could see the level in question, that would make it more clear.

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Cyborg: is only one robot active at a time? It seems like I would always want to use my assault robot to move around and only switch if it makes sense. If it's not true, that means I should be able to do 4 attacks.

Correct, only one exo is out at a time.  Switching exos costs a move, so if you get into engagement range and then try to switch, that's tricky.  But you can indeed do what you described, simply by using the 6-9 keys on your keyboard, or clicking the portraits, whatever you find is quicker.  Definitely don't hesitate to switch exos to the best one for the job!

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Cyborg: I don't know where I'm going in the levels. Just going in a given direction. I don't really know my own strength or that of my enemy, so I haven't been lasting very long.

The tooltips can give you a good idea, but basically assume that you cannot take return fire -- almost all the time you want to avoid that.  So use Whistle and use the Wait commands (spacebar for the latter) to let the enemy come into your range, then blast them before they can hit you.

In terms of where to go in a level, the tooltip gives you an idea of your objective, and then it's a matter of you exploring to find it.  Or in some cases, you're just there to kill everyone. ;)

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Cyborg: Absent a tutorial, just need a little guidance on where I am supposed to be heading on the map and what I'm looking for in the levels. And should I be going all combat or avoiding the other robots? They seem to be kicking my butt really quickly.

Hacking locked doors for loot can be a really good idea, but otherwise just getting to the end with as many exos intact as possible is good: you get more loot the more exos you have suriviving at the end.  In terms of combat, your goal is to generally take no fire from enemies.  So kiting them and sniping them and so forth is typically good.  If you rush into a room with many enemies, that is very dangerous.  Bottlenecking them as much as possible is a very good thing.
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Offline mrhanman

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 12:17:39 PM »
i haven't had much trouble playing the game, but i like the fumble-y nature of first playing roguelikes.  that said, maybe a non-random tutorial "campaign" could be available on the main menu for those that want it? complete with full voice acting.

Offline x4000

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 12:19:43 PM »
that said, maybe a non-random tutorial "campaign" could be available on the main menu for those that want it? complete with full voice acting.

I'd really prefer to avoid that if possible, mainly because a lot of people are inclined to skip tutorials anyhow.  I mean, we could do it, and if we wind up having to then so be it.  In the end that might be cleaner than other options, I don't know.  But I do have this feeling like if we can convey the information in-game, that would be preferable.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2013, 12:20:05 PM »
This is good, he answered all my questions. I have a better idea now on what I'm doing. Particularly, using the whistle button appears to be working.
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Offline mrhanman

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2013, 12:29:06 PM »
that said, maybe a non-random tutorial "campaign" could be available on the main menu for those that want it? complete with full voice acting.

I'd really prefer to avoid that if possible, mainly because a lot of people are inclined to skip tutorials anyhow.  I mean, we could do it, and if we wind up having to then so be it.  In the end that might be cleaner than other options, I don't know.  But I do have this feeling like if we can convey the information in-game, that would be preferable.

i'm one of those who skips tutorials, but if you had one separate from the game, it would keep the main game "pure" for those who like it that way. you also wouldn't have to go through it each time you start a new game.

having everything intuitive would be best, of course, but if that becomes impossible, i'd rather have an optional tutorial.

Offline x4000

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 12:33:55 PM »
This is good, he answered all my questions. I have a better idea now on what I'm doing. Particularly, using the whistle button appears to be working.

Awesome! :)  Glad I could help.

i'm one of those who skips tutorials, but if you had one separate from the game, it would keep the main game "pure" for those who like it that way. you also wouldn't have to go through it each time you start a new game.

having everything intuitive would be best, of course, but if that becomes impossible, i'd rather have an optional tutorial.

Got it.  Well, the tutorial message would be able to be disabled in the settings options anyhow so that you don't have to see it every time.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 01:37:26 PM »
Yea, having a tutorial of any length is really tricky, because a lot of people fall in one of two camps:

a) They skip it, so if the tutorial is necessary to play the game we've basically lost them.  It can be made non-skippable, but few things induce such rage unless we're talking like 15 seconds max in the tutorial.

b) They either lose interest and don't finish the tutorial or they at least draw their initial impressions of gameplay from the tutorial.  For AIW this was actually fine (back in 2009 before I worked here I played that intermediate tutorial for quite a while just trying to get it down), but for Skyward (for example) I think the tutorial as "the first game that you play" gave people unfavorable impressions of the actual gameplay.

So basically it's either got to be super short (less than a minute, preferably less than 30 seconds), or the tutorial itself has to be genuinely really fun to play.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 01:45:21 PM »
I felt that was one black mark against Dredmor, actually, in my book.  The game is fun, and the tutorials were funny, but there were entirely too many of them and they lasted too long.  Then I died on the first level after that anyway.  I had selected a lot of stupid stats, like vampirism, but did not appreciate they were stupid.  It's a good game, but that part at the start doesn't help I don't think.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 02:01:10 PM »
b) They either lose interest and don't finish the tutorial or they at least draw their initial impressions of gameplay from the tutorial.  For AIW this was actually fine (back in 2009 before I worked here I played that intermediate tutorial for quite a while just trying to get it down), but for Skyward (for example) I think the tutorial as "the first game that you play" gave people unfavorable impressions of the actual gameplay.

That happened to me with Skyward. I still haven't finished the tutorial level.

In this case I don't know that a full tutorial is needed. But some stuff like "you can click over here to change which exo is active, change weapons, and use stealth" would be pretty helpful. Also the first time you see an item on the map or a computer terminal, point out that it's a thing you can interact with rather than just another "stuff" tile.

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: Developers requesting feedback: Tutorial-y stuff.
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 02:52:09 PM »
Maybe hot tips for new game concepts would work better in this kind of game, these could pop-up as required and the player could disable them once the concept is clearly understood.

Just some thoughts as I patiently await alpha access :-)