Author Topic: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)  (Read 6405 times)

Offline Sounds

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2016, 07:55:22 PM »
... Is there really anything anyone could've said to prevent what happened with Stars Beyond Reach?

Man this thread is going into the unknown.... Who would have thought  ;D

I won't take this thread much further off topic other than to say I don't really know.

As a redshirt on that one I never found the fun bit. At the time I clearly saw the essence of a great idea, which seem to always need another push to get over the hill to find the fun. However looking back now, SBR's hill actually hid a mountain that I'm glad Chris was wise enough to see.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 07:57:25 PM by Sounds »

Offline Misery

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2016, 09:30:49 PM »
All of this transparency but no information on where the money goes (not that it should be shared, but it's a surprising number).

If only the kickstarter page had a giant budget pie chart to indicate that info... (You should check the kickstarter page again)

I'm talking about, labor, supplies, operating expenses, that kind of thing. In my head, I'm thinking about okay, blue is full-time, Chris is full-time, Keith is full-time. Labor has to be the biggest cost, and over how many months. And presumably, subscription fees for their software, etc. And with this game allegedly having a playable build by May, that's how many months of development? 8? At what point people are moving off the project? I don't know how the division is done, that's just a really big number for a game that has traditionally benefited from the profit long after the initial release. And that number is far higher than most indie developers, I would imagine. These developers and their artists deserve to make bank. I cheer for their profit. But I'd rather that happen based on the success of the product with a modest income for the development. And if it is based on the success of the product, they might have more incentive to rein in some of the problems over the last two years. Of course, with the lack of success lately, that's probably a tough sell.

And Misery, I'm talking about the echo chamber that I see in the various posts going all the way back to stars beyond reach. I've been a part of many organizations, and I have to say that one of the worst things is when you develop the echo chamber. It prevents you from taking your medicine, so to speak. Or rather, it just delays the sickness. Eventually, the truth is revealed and reality sets in. Don't believe me? I refer you to stars beyond reach and raptors. You see, there's more to community than just everyone cheerleading and marching in a straight line. I've never been able to do that.

It's the inbreeding of ideas, if you will.

Are you partly referring to the post I made earlier in this thread about transparency and the document there?   I'm really not good at figuring out what people are saying sometimes, so I apologize for that if this may seem like a damn silly question...

In an overall sense though, I think that as a community it's kinda hard to avoid that "echo chamber" thing a bit. As I know what you mean by it as a whole.   I see it all the time on other forums, and... yeah, that's just how things are.  Because whoever you're grouped up with, you are hoping that they succeed, yeah?  And even if you're a negative ball of unpleasantness such as myself, you try to say positive things sometimes because it might somehow help.  We've seen lots of people do this on this forum (it definitely aint just us mods doin' that one).  And really, to a point, I don't at all think it's a bad thing (in an "everyone just wants to help" sort of way).  Though of course it can be a problem in other ways.

....also there's the simple fact that it's REALLY easy to get excited when a developer might be producing a new game you might like, heh.  I know I'm not immune to that.   But yeah...

And as mods, we cant just, well... go around STOPPING it, or anything, if other people are doing it, if that's part of what you mean (seriously, I'm not entirely sure just what you mean).  That's not our job.  It's just going to happen one way or another as a rule.   

BUT, there's usually those that are pointing out the downsides of things too (which has included myself at various points) so it's not like everyone is JUST saying "Of course THIS thing will work!".   As long as everyone's just being honest or whatever, and NOT being just outright nasty, it's all fine by me.   Also as long as they're not being bots.  Cannot abide by that one, no sir....

Right now though, one way or another, we all have to just wait and see what happens, eh?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 09:48:15 PM by Misery »

Offline Tridus

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2016, 09:22:11 AM »
I'm talking about, labor, supplies, operating expenses, that kind of thing. In my head, I'm thinking about okay, blue is full-time, Chris is full-time, Keith is full-time. Labor has to be the biggest cost, and over how many months. And presumably, subscription fees for their software, etc. And with this game allegedly having a playable build by May, that's how many months of development? 8? At what point people are moving off the project? I don't know how the division is done, that's just a really big number for a game that has traditionally benefited from the profit long after the initial release. And that number is far higher than most indie developers, I would imagine. These developers and their artists deserve to make bank. I cheer for their profit. But I'd rather that happen based on the success of the product with a modest income for the development. And if it is based on the success of the product, they might have more incentive to rein in some of the problems over the last two years. Of course, with the lack of success lately, that's probably a tough sell.

Release is listed as October, so there's a pretty sizable gap between having a playable build and the version that will be out of Early Access. Presumably people will be working in that time.

The problem with this that people fund Kickstarters in multiple ways. Some of them ask for what it'll actually cost to make the game. Some ask for less, because it's one guy working in the garage part time and they just don't need the same amount of money (or because they use a weird model, like Defense Grid 2 did). The worst offenders are the ones that secretly have publisher backing and claim to be able to make a $3 million game on $400,000 because of it. Those just skew the market for everyone else.

We're talking about a year of effort from multiple people, plus expenses. Doesn't seem overly out of line.

Quote
And Misery, I'm talking about the echo chamber that I see in the various posts going all the way back to stars beyond reach. I've been a part of many organizations, and I have to say that one of the worst things is when you develop the echo chamber. It prevents you from taking your medicine, so to speak. Or rather, it just delays the sickness. Eventually, the truth is revealed and reality sets in. Don't believe me? I refer you to stars beyond reach and raptors. You see, there's more to community than just everyone cheerleading and marching in a straight line. I've never been able to do that.

It's the inbreeding of ideas, if you will.

I get that, but when has that happened lately? The last time the moderators were doing any kind of disservice to this campaign was the reverse AI war "ha ha I know but I'm not telling!" stuff, and they were called out for it by virtually everyone. I don't get what the complaints are about now.

Offline Misery

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2016, 10:26:19 AM »
I get that, but when has that happened lately? The last time the moderators were doing any kind of disservice to this campaign was the reverse AI war "ha ha I know but I'm not telling!" stuff, and they were called out for it by virtually everyone. I don't get what the complaints are about now.


Wait, what?  I don't remember this bit.  Did I miss an event here?

Offline Draco18s

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2016, 10:34:44 AM »
I get that, but when has that happened lately? The last time the moderators were doing any kind of disservice to this campaign was the reverse AI war "ha ha I know but I'm not telling!" stuff, and they were called out for it by virtually everyone. I don't get what the complaints are about now.
Wait, what?  I don't remember this bit.  Did I miss an event here?

Eh, it was just a couple of us Freaking Volunteers going [redacted] when talking about Starward Rogue.
TL;DR it stopped being funny.

Offline Logorouge

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2016, 10:47:15 AM »
Eh, it was just a couple of us Freaking Volunteers going [redacted] when talking about Starward Rogue.
No no, that was something else that happened the same day. I used the "[redacted]" thing to ask about the "maybe expansion, maybe major patch, who knows" of Starward Rogue. Then, a few hours later Cyborg posted "Reverse AI War please don't do that", then Cinth replied "C'mon you don't know what it's yet" and used some "[redacted]" to tease him about it. It did not end well, even echoing back in the Starward Rogue thread.

I think that sums it up. Did I forget anything?

Offline Misery

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2016, 11:20:06 AM »
Eh, it was just a couple of us Freaking Volunteers going [redacted] when talking about Starward Rogue.
TL;DR it stopped being funny.

Oh, that.

That had me confused for awhile as well. 


The bit with Reverse AI War though, I didn't see that little event.  I don't believe I heard about that potential game until the rest of the forum did as I don't think it was mentioned in emails before that.

....or it was and I forgot.  Always a possibility.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2016, 03:05:10 AM »
I get that, but when has that happened lately? The last time the moderators were doing any kind of disservice to this campaign was the reverse AI war "ha ha I know but I'm not telling!" stuff, and they were called out for it by virtually everyone. I don't get what the complaints are about now.
Wait, what?  I don't remember this bit.  Did I miss an event here?

Eh, it was just a couple of us Freaking Volunteers going [redacted] when talking about Starward Rogue.
TL;DR it stopped being funny.

No, you missed some parts.
Parts were mods flaunted the people on the forum with "we know out it works, but won't tell" predates the redacted fiasco (see the neinzul thread... there are others).
There is also parts where stuff ain't in the design doc, and people were answered "we have inner info that it's not in the game, so stop speaking about this subject ensued".
Also, frankly, I completely agree about the raptor part. You'd have to be blind to think that it could have been successful. A game out of the blue, in a market dominated by Ark & copies, in a genre that's not what Arcen's known for, after 2 failures ? Chris might have needed to change his mind, but Arcen needed something safe. Which might or not have worked, but at least, that had a non-abyssal success chance.

Not to mention the tone of the KS and associated comments. I believe I've been sufficiently vehement about that part for people to know my stance.


That said, we should be focussing on the KS, no ?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 03:06:49 AM by kasnavada »

Offline Misery

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2016, 04:08:06 AM »
Huh.  Sounds like there's quite a lot of stuff I missed here.

Though I haven't been following this part of the forum too closely.  Too much happening too fast.

Hopefully though, we'll not have any more situations like that.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: From Chris: A happy update! (Oct 20th)
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2016, 04:10:56 PM »
regarding stars I have to admit at the time I was what cyborg would call one of the cheer leaders I was really excited about it during its testing period even though the constant push backs kept worrying me.
 the amount of bad feeling that game has unintently caused is a real shame.

and yea I only noticed the weird redacted thing when cyborg made that thread of his since I've only been causally following all this having no real experience with aw or kick-starter to give.

and yes you should definitely get back on track and not obsesses to much over the drama.

speaking of which ill go now and leave you to it.
c.r