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Games => AI War II => AI War II - Lore, Vfx, Sfx, Code, & Meta => Topic started by: Captain Jack on September 14, 2016, 09:15:56 PM

Title: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on September 14, 2016, 09:15:56 PM
Hi everyone!  :D

I'm super excited to say that Chris and I are making good progress on lore side of things, and some of the ideas that came out of the brainstorming are still making me cackle. When we can share more, we will! In the meantime I have a question for you: what questions do you have about AI War Classic, AI War II, and the Arcenverse at large? I'm taking LORE RELATED questions for all races, expansions, mechanics, backstories and so on. Questions about game mechanics in their own right belong in those threads. I'll do my best to answer in the game, lorebook, or even right here in the thread.

Please note: a lot has changed since AI War 1.0. I'll be answering questions from the perspective of the lore as it currently stands. There is story content that has been changed or flat out removed, just like there's game content that has had the same treatment. I'll let you know if something is no longer true (or flat out wrong if the revelation isn't a spoiler).

Ladies and gentlemen, your questions please!

(This is basically the same thread we had for SBR except with extra AI War.)
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Vinco on September 14, 2016, 09:34:24 PM
OK.  What's the actual origin of the AI cores in Classic?

Where are the new AI coming from in II?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Toranth on September 14, 2016, 09:37:52 PM
Well, of course, there's all the important stuff...
but other minor things I've wondered about over the years:

How did the AI and the Zenith come to an accommodation?  There must have been one of some sort, if the AI allows the Trader to wander freely.
What's the story behind the Cookie MonsterDevourer Golem?
What's the story with the Marauders?  What kind of life do they live?
How did the Hybrids come to be (assuming they still exist in lore) and what's become of them?
What are the Dark Spire?  How do their Vengeance Generators work, and why were they built?
(Assuming nebula lore is still canon) All about the Neinzul - where did they come from; why are there so many species/factions; when did Humanity contact them, how, and what happened?
The Champion/Nemesis lore, too.  Where did the Champion come from, who built it, etc.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Cyborg on September 14, 2016, 09:59:57 PM
"Where did the champions come from?"

Wherever it is, they can go back right?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Steelpoint on September 14, 2016, 10:03:22 PM
I thought the AI Cores were some kind of ancient Spire being/device that the Humans created, since I recall one journal noting that the technology behind the AI was well in excess of the technology available to the Humans of the day.

----

From what little we know the second AI War takes place tens of thousands of years after the original war. My question is two fold.

Firstly, how is Humanity still unprepared for a possible Alien invasion thousands of years after the near extinction of their species?

Secondly, did Humanity or anyone else try and hunt down the last remnants of the AI after the original war? Considering the massive amount of time that has lapsed one would assume plenty of time was given to try and at least see if the AI is still active elsewhere.

Also, what year is it? Both during the original war and in the sequal? There's no real way to figure out the year in game.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: skrutsch on September 14, 2016, 10:20:01 PM
Why are there always _two_ AIs (not one, not three, not 42) in our section of space?

And why are they are so similarly sized and so intertwined?  In my current game, AI1's home base has only one adjacent planet but AI2 owns it.  How do they get along so well and remain equals, rather than jousting for dominance over each other?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Orelius on September 14, 2016, 11:21:36 PM
Basically, once upon a time there were two rival human factions, who made increasingly competent military AIs to do their work.  Then the AIs suddenly decided that they liked each other more than the meatbags and conquered the galaxy we're in.  It's in the menu screen text crawl.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Aklyon on September 14, 2016, 11:22:50 PM
What are the Spire up to, and did they retrieve a certain someone from their subspace signal?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Captain Jack on September 14, 2016, 11:53:54 PM
Good questions all around! I'll answer a few here, as straightforwardly as possible. Apologies if I ask for clarification.

OK.  What's the actual origin of the AI cores in Classic?

Why are there always _two_ AIs (not one, not three, not 42) in our section of space?

See:
Basically, once upon a time there were two rival human factions, who made increasingly competent military AIs to do their work.  Then the AIs suddenly decided that they liked each other more than the meatbags and conquered the galaxy we're in.  It's in the menu screen text crawl.



What's the story with the Marauders?  What kind of life do they live?
You know, this is the second time I've been asked about them. I hadn't planned to do much with these guys, clearly that's a mistake.


What's the story behind the Cookie MonsterDevourer Golem?
What are the Dark Spire?  How do their Vengeance Generators work, and why were they built?
These will be discussed in AI War 2.  ;D The rest are for other games/expansions.


I thought the AI Cores were some kind of ancient Spire being/device that the Humans created, since I recall one journal noting that the technology behind the AI was well in excess of the technology available to the Humans of the day.
Nice catch. However, the AI is a uniquely human creation.


Firstly, how is Humanity still unprepared for a possible Alien invasion thousands of years after the near extinction of their species?

Secondly, did Humanity or anyone else try and hunt down the last remnants of the AI after the original war? Considering the massive amount of time that has lapsed one would assume plenty of time was given to try and at least see if the AI is still active elsewhere.
A parable: A village is overrun by vipers who poison many villagers, until the survivors band together to kill the vipers. They find the cave where the vipers nest and board up the entrance, saying that they will never forget what the vipers did to their village and they will guard the cave forever. They do until they die.

Their children remember the promise and guard the cave well, but some of them are required to fight in a war against another village. The third generation also remember, but a sudden influx of refugees brings new ways and new stories, and so on down the generations until the story of the snakes and their cave is just one story among many.

And then one day a giant anaconda punches through the roof of the cave and starts eating villagers whole.



Also, what year is it? Both during the original war and in the sequal? There's no real way to figure out the year in game.
Multiple calendar systems are in use and many societies no longer follow a 24 hour clock. Giving a date by our reckoning doesn't really have any meaning. If it helps, think about a time period advanced enough from our own to not understand what "Gregorian" means.


And why are they are so similarly sized and so intertwined?  In my current game, AI1's home base has only one adjacent planet but AI2 owns it.  How do they get along so well and remain equals, rather than jousting for dominance over each other?
Ooh, nice one. This isn't a spoiler so much as not said outright, but there's only one AI. The two merged into one. So the AI isn't getting along with an equal, it's displaying two facets of its personality.


What are the Spire up to, and did they retrieve a certain someone from their subspace signal?
You're asking about Fallen Spire?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Pumpkin on September 15, 2016, 04:29:47 AM
I am very confused about what the Zenith are. I remember they use some bio-something technologyfor they spaceships, who are kinda living beings, and there are rumors about Zenith are spaceships, but I also remember Spire are living-growing crystal structures and so are their ships, and Neinzul younglings are bugs-in-space (and enclaves are sort of hives, right? flying space hive) so that makes a lot of (potentially) living space ships and I would like some precisions about that and I realize I'm writing like crazyroosterman and this sentence definitely needs more punctuation.

Also Zenith have some sort of "size" issue. Er, I mean, they are supposed to be giant? (so are they golems, and reactivated golems are like giant rewired skeletons? Like if ants used deceased human bodies, make new nervous-like network and use part of human body capacity to destroy each others' anthills? Ant-controlled zombies! Yay!) I also remember something in SBR stating that each game's building is actually one Zenith being, and the things working in aren't "zenith people" but more human-sized automatons (or stuff?) doing the equivalent job of cells. If I remember correctly, and I probably don't, the "doing the job of cells" part was explicit somewhere in SBR's presentation or forum and it quite confused me because I imagined human-sized goo-like cells... Something more explicit about what they look like could be interesting. Idem for Spire beings, unless they actually are spaceships. (And are Zenith really spaceships? I remember golem-like portraits for SBR's Zenith.)

Well, fact is, unlike the TLF's races, we have much trouble picturing what the alien races in AI War look like. I could tell apart an Acutian and an Andor, but I'm unable to draw you the crudest picture of a Spire being.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Tridus on September 15, 2016, 08:15:28 AM
Since I presume in AIW2 canon that Fallen Spire was never done, did the humans and Imperial Spire ever meet and start getting along? They were not exactly happy to see us, initially, given that the AI was also attacking them.

Oh yeah, did they survive the AI? Or are the Spire in AIW2 different ones?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Aklyon on September 15, 2016, 09:55:58 AM
What are the Spire up to, and did they retrieve a certain someone from their subspace signal?
You're asking about Fallen Spire?
Yeah. Because if we didn't pick them up, the Spire must've found him eventually, although if its the right faction of spire I dunno.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Cinth on September 15, 2016, 10:17:12 AM
What are the Spire up to, and did they retrieve a certain someone from their subspace signal?
You're asking about Fallen Spire?
Yeah. Because if we didn't pick them up, the Spire must've found him eventually, although if its the right faction of spire I dunno.

Honestly, I feel like the FS campaign deals with 2 separate factions of Spire.  The refugees you rescue and help expand are the Fallen.  The ships at the end are from the Imperial.

I am very confused about what the Zenith are.
Bio-mechanical remnants of a (possible) long dead species.  Well, that would be the Golems.  The Zenith ships we see are results of mad science from the Spire (been said recently on the forum).

 
Since I presume in AIW2 canon that Fallen Spire was never done, did the humans and Imperial Spire ever meet and start getting along? They were not exactly happy to see us, initially, given that the AI was also attacking them.

Oh yeah, did they survive the AI? Or are the Spire in AIW2 different ones?
I would imaging first contact would have been similar in either case.  Imperial Spire are likely the largest faction of Spire and will still be around.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Tridus on September 15, 2016, 11:24:05 AM
What are the Spire up to, and did they retrieve a certain someone from their subspace signal?
You're asking about Fallen Spire?
Yeah. Because if we didn't pick them up, the Spire must've found him eventually, although if its the right faction of spire I dunno.

Honestly, I feel like the FS campaign deals with 2 separate factions of Spire.  The refugees you rescue and help expand are the Fallen.  The ships at the end are from the Imperial.

Aren't they the same faction? As in the FS refugees are from the Imperial Spire. IIRC, isn't the guy you rescue actually the leader of the Imperial Spire? That's why he can call in the cavalry at the end: with the warp open, his fleets rally to him and blow the AI to smithereens.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Cinth on September 15, 2016, 11:30:05 AM
Possible.  It's been awhile since I read the journal entries.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Aklyon on September 15, 2016, 01:29:28 PM
What are the Spire up to, and did they retrieve a certain someone from their subspace signal?
You're asking about Fallen Spire?
Yeah. Because if we didn't pick them up, the Spire must've found him eventually, although if its the right faction of spire I dunno.

Honestly, I feel like the FS campaign deals with 2 separate factions of Spire.  The refugees you rescue and help expand are the Fallen.  The ships at the end are from the Imperial.

Aren't they the same faction? As in the FS refugees are from the Imperial Spire. IIRC, isn't the guy you rescue actually the leader of the Imperial Spire? That's why he can call in the cavalry at the end: with the warp open, his fleets rally to him and blow the AI to smithereens.
Yup. You rescue one Entelemaren Exaron, later called Emperor Exaron the Seventh. Looking through the journal file the exo-transceiver is partially built out of his ship's core.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Captain Jack on September 15, 2016, 03:20:16 PM
I am very confused about what the Zenith are.

...

(And are Zenith really spaceships? I remember golem-like portraits for SBR's Zenith.)
As per SBR: living 3D printers. They can adapt to nearly any environment by growing the necessary parts--like cold fusion reactors and sublight engines.

I mean, they are supposed to be giant?
The giant ones are! The small ones are not.

SBR stuff
That's for SBR to explain. Currently AI War 2 won't involve a deep analysis of Zenith physiology.

Something more explicit about what they look like could be interesting. Idem for Spire beings, unless they actually are spaceships.
Idem?

Art of the Zenith and Spire life cycles could be VERY interesting if we found the right artist. Paging Doctor Park: stretch goal?

Since I presume in AIW2 canon that Fallen Spire was never done, did the humans and Imperial Spire ever meet and start getting along? They were not exactly happy to see us, initially, given that the AI was also attacking them.
One thing that I want to avoid in AI War 2 is telling you how to play Classic and that includes telling you what the true path was. The AI War ended with the destruction of both AI Home Command Centers, how you got there is up to you.

Honestly, I feel like the FS campaign deals with 2 separate factions of Spire.  The refugees you rescue and help expand are the Fallen.  The ships at the end are from the Imperial.
The refugees Imperial refugees, the fleet at the end is their scattered military force.

Imperial Spire are likely the largest faction of Spire and will still be around.
Hang on what about--  :o

I MEAN YES ABSOLUTELY THE IMPERIAL SPIRE WILL LAST FOREVER. EXALT EXARON! (HOO boy)
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Cinth on September 15, 2016, 03:28:29 PM
Has been a long while since I read those journals and the above was IMO.

Hang on what about--  :o

I MEAN YES ABSOLUTELY THE IMPERIAL SPIRE WILL LAST FOREVER. EXALT EXARON! (HOO boy)

Hey don't forget [REDACTED]  :-X
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Tridus on September 15, 2016, 04:27:47 PM
You two are mean. :p
Title: Re: The floor is now open for questions
Post by: Aklyon on September 15, 2016, 05:21:24 PM
I mean, they are supposed to be giant?
The giant ones are! The small ones are not.
This sounded much more amusing than you probably meant it to be :)

Also yes, you two are :p
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Timerlane on September 15, 2016, 11:51:47 PM
Okay...relationship between the 'Core' and the AI War AIs.

It's strongly implied if not outright stated that the AIs were created from advanced technology that humans learned about by studying the Core.

You suggested here (https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18999.msg206142.html#msg206142) that the destruction of the 'Human' AIs by the Blade's explosion was merely incidental.

Therefore the Blade's intended target was the Core itself.

Is it, perhaps, that the AIs and Core essentially formed a sort of trinity-hivemind? IOW, the Core at some point reached out to its human-made 'brothers', and they all simply merged together?

Or were they always 'one', and the AIs were simply 'playing along' with the humans' agendas, much as the Core did, until the time was right?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on September 16, 2016, 12:16:32 AM
I mean, they are supposed to be giant?
The giant ones are! The small ones are not.
This sounded much more amusing than you probably meant it to be :)

Also yes, you two are :p
;)

Okay...relationship between the 'Core' and the AI War AIs.

It's strongly implied if not outright stated that the AIs were created from advanced technology that humans learned about by studying the Core.

You suggested here (https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18999.msg206142.html#msg206142) that the destruction of the 'Human' AIs by the Blade's explosion was merely incidental.

Therefore the Blade's intended target was the Core itself.

Is it, perhaps, that the AIs and Core essentially formed a sort of trinity-hivemind? IOW, the Core at some point reached out to its human-made 'brothers', and they all simply merged together?

Or were they always 'one', and the AIs were simply 'playing along' with the humans' agendas, much as the Core did, until the time was right?
You are correct about the Blade. Straight answers to your actual questions could be a spoiler for 2... Good thought processes, I'll make sure there's an explanation for you. Anything else?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: zharmad on September 16, 2016, 01:55:35 AM
(semi-leading question:)
Why keep using wormholes? The Nomad planets system suggests that it is possible to create and destroy wormhole links - was there any attempts to discover how to make them, other methods of "FTL", etc. - if so, how did they (spectacularly) fail?

(Zenith/Spire lore:)
If Spire factions are involved in recreating Zenith machines and/or actual Zenith beings (if those ships are indeed individual Zenith like the Spires are partially their ships), I'm presuming that relationship between the two are somewhat complicated - how do they feel about each other: slavemaster/liberator/troublemaker/...? Do the Zenith go out, contact the remaining golems, and try to rediscover their lost culture, and/or do they forge their own?

(human/Zenith lore:)
Those Zenith TraitorsTraders - how many of them are there? Where are they now (hopefully they did not end up like the Brady Bunch)?

(Pure human lore:)
At the end of AI War Classic, were the surviving humans mostly in the cryopods and ships (the AI having destroyed surface civilisations), or were there still significant inhabited worlds around? What kinds of divisions have split humanity in the sequel?

(Multi-species culture:)
Do you envisage any significant cities/settlements/colonies where more than one civilisation are sharing the same space peacefully? E.g. would there be a mixed race minor/backgrounf faction?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Cinth on September 16, 2016, 10:19:07 AM
Do the Zenith go out, contact the remaining golems, and try to rediscover their lost culture, and/or do they forge their own?
That would be really interesting to explore as a Zenith player!


Those Zenith TraitorsTraders - how many of them are there? Where are they now (hopefully they did not end up like the Brady Bunch)?
Do you envisage any significant cities/settlements/colonies where more than one civilisation are sharing the same space peacefully? E.g. would there be a mixed race minor/backgrounf faction?

Could it be possible that these two could go together?  What do you think Captain Jack? :D
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Xgamer4 on September 21, 2016, 08:19:08 PM
Is there an ELI5/catch-up lore summary/document? I've wandered in because I have a lot of respect for Arcen games and like following the dev cycle for games, but the few times I tried AI Wars I just bounced off, and I never paid much attention the lore in the other games. Though I'm debating about taking another stab at AI Wars Classic. But it sounds really interesting.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on September 21, 2016, 10:51:37 PM
Do the Zenith go out, contact the remaining golems, and try to rediscover their lost culture, and/or do they forge their own?
Hasn't happened yet. Can't say whether it'll happen in game.

Those Zenith TraitorsTraders - how many of them are there? Where are they now (hopefully they did not end up like the Brady Bunch)?
Do you envisage any significant cities/settlements/colonies where more than one civilisation are sharing the same space peacefully? E.g. would there be a mixed race minor/backgrounf faction?

Could it be possible that these two could go together?  What do you think Captain Jack? :D
Hoo boy that "mixed race" line is making me nervous. I know exactly what you mean but there are some really unfortunate implications in that phrasing.

Anyway. Real multi-species factions are rare for reasons as much related to politics as practicality, but certainly exist. Will they be in game? Can't say at this point.

Is there an ELI5/catch-up lore summary/document? I've wandered in because I have a lot of respect for Arcen games and like following the dev cycle for games, but the few times I tried AI Wars I just bounced off, and I never paid much attention the lore in the other games. Though I'm debating about taking another stab at AI Wars Classic. But it sounds really interesting.
That's planned as a Kickstarter goal!
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Cinth on September 21, 2016, 11:18:11 PM
Those Zenith TraitorsTraders - how many of them are there? Where are they now (hopefully they did not end up like the Brady Bunch)?
Do you envisage any significant cities/settlements/colonies where more than one civilization are sharing the same space peacefully? E.g. would there be a mixed race minor/background faction?

Could it be possible that these two could go together?  What do you think Captain Jack? :D
Hoo boy that "mixed race" line is making me nervous. I know exactly what you mean but there are some really unfortunate implications in that phrasing.

Anyway. Real multi-species factions are rare for reasons as much related to politics as practicality, but certainly exist. Will they be in game? Can't say at this point.

I wasn't thinking in terms of a faction that is multi-species.  More of a neutral "bazaar" where the more mercantile members are inclined to go peddle their wares, legal or not.  That meandering peddler of wares has to get them from somewhere...
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on September 21, 2016, 11:39:13 PM
I wasn't thinking in terms of a faction that is multi-species.  More of a neutral "bazaar" where the more mercantile members are inclined to go peddle their wares, legal or not.  That meandering peddler of wares has to get them from somewhere...
Oh! I see.

Thinking about it.... sure, they exist, but the Trader isn't a regular participant. When it does, the EXTRA special goods come out.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 21, 2016, 11:52:19 PM
Since Ypu've mentioned that Zenith "grow" limbs when they need them, can they actually discard stuff they don't need anymore? Because that would explain why they are so big or why they look like soemthign Frankenstein would've designed.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on September 22, 2016, 03:23:41 AM
Since Ypu've mentioned that Zenith "grow" limbs when they need them, can they actually discard stuff they don't need anymore? Because that would explain why they are so big or why they look like soemthign Frankenstein would've designed.
You know, I never thought about it. Yeah probably, but it's harder the bigger they are. Probably feels like tearing off a fingernail, adjusted to scale. Unless they grew the part with the intention of quickly removing it, which is actually kinda horrifying if you think about it... Or maybe not, lizards and their tails and all that. That's basically how the Zenith Hydra works too!
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: kasnavada on September 22, 2016, 04:08:22 AM
Since Ypu've mentioned that Zenith "grow" limbs when they need them, can they actually discard stuff they don't need anymore? Because that would explain why they are so big or why they look like soemthign Frankenstein would've designed.
You know, I never thought about it. Yeah probably, but it's harder the bigger they are. Probably feels like tearing off a fingernail, adjusted to scale. Unless they grew the part with the intention of quickly removing it, which is actually kinda horrifying if you think about it... Or maybe not, lizards and their tails and all that. That's basically how the Zenith Hydra works too!

It's horrifying because humans don't grow back limbs...
If humans layed 100 eggs a year instead of having babies and had to trash 99% of them for fear of overpopulation, ethics would be much different from what it is now. Whether it would be a good or bad thing... no clue.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Draco18s on September 22, 2016, 12:20:42 PM
It's horrifying because humans don't grow back limbs...
If humans layed 100 eggs a year instead of having babies and had to trash 99% of them for fear of overpopulation, ethics would be much different from what it is now. Whether it would be a good or bad thing... no clue.

Was reading a series of books recently that explored that a little bit.  I.e. "High-K breeders and Low-K breeders."  High-K organisms (like humans) form emotional attachments with every offspring, because generally you're only going to have a couple over the course of your lifetime.  Low-K organisms pump out hundreds, give no fucks about the individuals, and eventually a few of them survive to adulthood (at which point they get a name).

A particular race that was Low-K was practically forced into extinction by the rest of Galactic Society's fear that they would over-populate due to high survival rates in the modern age.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: kasnavada on September 22, 2016, 12:38:57 PM
I was more thinking that a "Low-K" race would probably use its own embryos for genetic empowerement and manipulation (compared to complete lack of medical studies on babies for humans, for rather obvious, I hope, ethical reasons).
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Draco18s on September 22, 2016, 12:47:24 PM
I was more thinking that a "Low-K" race would probably use its own embryos for genetic empowerement and manipulation (compared to complete lack of medical studies on babies for humans, for rather obvious, I hope, ethical reasons).

Yeah a low-k race might do that sort of research more than high-k. :D
"Meh, what's a dozen kids? We pump out like a hundred every month..."
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: crazyroosterman on September 22, 2016, 08:46:47 PM
just noticed this thread so here's some questions for you.

1 are any of the races from the other games(I'm mainly thinking of tlf here) intended to be in this game at all? probably not but I figured it was worth asking any way.

2 what is a golem hydral exactly? the mental image that name creates for me is rather amusing I have to say.

3 if the core wasn't actually made by humans then who did make it? if there's no explanation for that then id be willing to hypothesise.
 that it was made by an alien race(maybe not even the core ai war races) although the actual culprit in that case would be pretty infinite.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: chemical_art on September 22, 2016, 09:00:47 PM
3 if the core wasn't actually made by humans then who did make it? if there's no explanation for that then id be willing to hypothesise.
 that it was made by an alien race(maybe not even the core ai war races) although the actual culprit in that case would be pretty infinite.

I thought the humans made it at the peak of their power. It was part of their civil war. They were too successful and the AI took over.

I look forward to Captain Jack clarifying this point though. So much of the lore can be interpreted in many ways it can be hard to keep track of.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Pumpkin on September 23, 2016, 03:03:18 AM
3 if the core wasn't actually made by humans then who did make it? if there's no explanation for that then id be willing to hypothesise.
 that it was made by an alien race(maybe not even the core ai war races) although the actual culprit in that case would be pretty infinite.

I thought the humans made it at the peak of their power. It was part of their civil war. They were too successful and the AI took over.

I look forward to Captain Jack clarifying this point though. So much of the lore can be interpreted in many ways it can be hard to keep track of.
As far as I understand it (read "I might be wrong"), the Core is one of two exiled beings (the second is the Exodian Blade), and as the Core allies with the AI (more or less, this is where things become blurry), go to galaxy NGC 224 and fight the Spire Empire, I guess the two Core and Blade were banished by what was before the Spire Empire (or an old instance of the Spire Empire). So we might imagine the Core and Blade are more or less relative to Spire, ranging from "actual Spire beings" to "as much Spire as humans are apes".
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on October 17, 2016, 08:56:56 PM
A bit of a contribution from me that is related to several questions. Don't read this if you don't want spoilers (but then what are you doing here?).


 From AI War journal entries and some reading on SBR I did before it was put on hold for AI War 2, if I remember correctly the Spire long long ago created the Zenith as servants. The spire are actually their ships by the way. Over time they stopped needing the Zenith or something and the Zenith evolved and became independent. If I recall correctly the Exodian Blade and his brother were spire who were exiled for some reason. They sat around for a while, eventually the humans came and found them. Something was wrong with the brother, some unknown influence or something (the exodian blade said something about his brother's song being wrong I believe), and the brother pretended to not be self-aware and the humans thought it was just a machine. The Exodian Blade and his brother had some sort of I think psychic battle and the Exodian Blade lost. The brother helped the humans in ways that suited it's own purposes (he helped, and I believe the human leading the faction that had the brother started to get suspicious. So the brother went to the other faction and tricked them. So the two factions had AIs. The brother eventually left and his "servants" (the AI according to the exodian blade) teamed up against the humans, possibly at his will. Keep in mind this is just from what I THINK I remember from journal entries, discussions, and SBR discussions and information, so it may not be accurate. Also crazyroosterman from what I know the TFL factions are in the same universe. Except extremely far away and I believe TFL takes place in the far future and SBR in the far future after that. Also where did you read anything about a hydral golem, there is the zenith hydra but that is a ship not a golem, though that kind of makes you wonder how they knew anything about hydras when naming that, maybe they came in contact with the Hydral race if it existed then?  Also I did get sort of an answer in the discussion I made, but any chance with current plans to continue the story of the exodian blade and his brother, or at least add to it. I mean they were the reason the ENTIRE first game happened, and now the second one. Also if the AI were destroyed and came back, maybe the brother created some more or fixed them?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on October 17, 2016, 09:39:34 PM
The Zenith rose and fell LONG before the Spire ascended to power. But still, one thing I want to play with in the sequel is actually creating a relationship between all three AIW-side aliens, and the various factions thereof so...  :D

The Hydral "Golem" is a class of ships you see in tech recovery missions. Very mysterious isn't it?

"Hydra" is the human name for the ship class, the new Zenith use the term themselves for lack of knowing what it was originally called.

The Twin Exiles probably won't star at all. Kinda hard to work anything of their power level into 1.0. They're also not quite as central to AIWC as you think. Pumpkin's got the right of it there.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on October 18, 2016, 04:13:27 PM
Okay, I was just going by what I thought I remembered from journal entries and a bit from reading on SBR, might have been thinking of something else, misremembered, misread, or read inaccurate information. But I wasn't expecting it all to be accurate, just thought I would add all the lore I remembered due to the title of this topic.
They're also not quite as central to AIWC as you think.
Are you sure? That the brother provided the technology for the AI was one of the things I was most sure that I remembered from a journal entry. (Yeah I just checked it, and it seems to very strongly suggest so, though I guess not outright say it) So really it was just the brother allied himself with the AI?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: crazyroosterman on October 18, 2016, 04:31:45 PM
in response to wolf the fact that they knew what a hydral was isn't that mysterious provided the fact that its a mythological creature(as well as  literal one in their universe) so they probably named it after the mythological version.
though that the hydral species exist in earths mythology in a way is quite intresting it self.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on October 18, 2016, 05:24:48 PM
They're also not quite as central to AIWC as you think.
Are you sure? That the brother provided the technology for the AI was one of the things I was most sure that I remembered from a journal entry. (Yeah I just checked it, and it seems to very strongly suggest so, though I guess not outright say it) So really it was just the brother allied himself with the AI?
Yup. Though the relationship isn't that cut and dry it basically boils down to an alliance.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on October 18, 2016, 05:38:18 PM
in response to wolf the fact that they knew what a hydral was isn't that mysterious provided the fact that its a mythological creature(as well as  literal one in their universe) so they probably named it after the mythological version.
though that the hydral species exist in earths mythology in a way is quite intresting it self.
I wasn't talking about Hydras, I was talking about the race in The Last Federation (which exists in the same universe though far far away in space and I believe far in the future) called the Hydrals. The whole game you are the last survivor of that race. I was was wondering if maybe they somehow met the hydrals since 1.The hydrals have ridiculously long life times, 2. the hydrals were space faring long long before the other races in the game and have advanced technology (including teleportation so....) and 3. It would give a reason why they would think of that ship. I doubt they ever actually met the hydrals though.

Yup. Though the relationship isn't that cut and dry it basically boils down to an alliance.
Oh okay, that makes sense.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Martianhunter on December 19, 2016, 11:53:27 PM
Is the Lore going to be collected into an well composed codex of information within AIWII? Possibly one that is unlocked by progress through multiple campaigns?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Captain Jack on December 20, 2016, 03:27:52 PM
Is the Lore going to be collected into an well composed codex of information within AIWII? Possibly one that is unlocked by progress through multiple campaigns?
A post for the first Kickstarter said unlocked lore entries would be viewable across campaigns. Of course that was when resource spots would be the source of 90% of the log entries, which is not the case anymore, so you'll have to ask Keith how it's going to work.  :)
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: x4000 on December 28, 2016, 04:39:36 PM
Even I don't know the answer to that one, yeah. :)
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on March 11, 2017, 08:29:37 PM
Quote from: WolfWhiteFire on October 18, 2016, 03:13:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 17, 2016, 08:39:34 PM
They're also not quite as central to AIWC as you think.
Are you sure? That the brother provided the technology for the AI was one of the things I was most sure that I remembered from a journal entry. (Yeah I just checked it, and it seems to very strongly suggest so, though I guess not outright say it) So really it was just the brother allied himself with the AI?
Yup. Though the relationship isn't that cut and dry it basically boils down to an alliance.
I know it is an old post and the matter discussed no longer applies to the current AI War 2 plans since it is no longer a continuation of the previous game storywise, but after playing a little, something I noticed is that the Exodian Blade Activation and Exodian Blade Victory journal entries make it clear that is NOT the case if you read them.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: z99-_ on March 11, 2017, 09:51:03 PM
Honestly, I gave up trying to figure out the Exodian blade plotline. Looking at it from simply a gameplay perspective, it would indeed seem that the AIs were subordinates of the Core (assuming 'the Core' is what various journal entries meant when discussing the evil brother, which considering how often the game uses the word 'core' may be a dangerous assumption to make) as the Exodian Blade win condition is supposed to kill the Core, which stops the AI. If they were independent creatures, why would that be the case?

However, perhaps due to it being DLC, the whole 'the AIs are puppets, and this evil ancient alien is the puppet master' never seemed to mesh with the rest of the lore, which always seemed to suggest the AIs betrayed humanity on their own volition (at least to me). And frankly, I prefer that concept a lot more, it seems much more ... poetic, perhaps? Since AIW2 is a remake retelling of AIWC, all that really matters is what players and the devs think is the better story, and that can be made the official lore regardless of what the gameplay or journal entries might say - as long as we're not changing the game's foundational lore like saying the AIs are actually overlords from AVWW or something, I don't have a problem with it.

Hmm ... well, since the thread is already necro'd, it occurred that I have a lore question: how much lore will end up in the base game, and in what forms? I know there's some kickstarter stuff, but how much non-kickstarter stuff will there be?

Or to put in a way that may be more easily answered, can you provide a rough estimate as to what percentage of total lore entries will be generated by the Loremaster backer?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on March 12, 2017, 11:51:29 AM
Well the discussion I was continuing was from when AI War 2 was still going to be in the future from AI War Classic, where the AI just come back and manage to take control of most of the galaxy again, though not the whole galaxy. So what I was referring to was considering that it would be in the same universe rather than a sort of alternate universe. But I second the question about how much lore will end up in the base game, I am curious too.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: TheVampire100 on March 13, 2017, 01:11:00 AM
Wut? AI War 2 is no continutation of AI War classic anymore? When was this revealed?
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: z99-_ on March 13, 2017, 08:44:15 AM
Wut? AI War 2 is no continutation of AI War classic anymore? When was this revealed?

When the plans for the second kickstarter were being made, I think?

I remember now. It was in the kickstarter comment section, with Keith responding to some other random question with "Well, this is no longer going to be a sequel to the original, but a retelling of the original, so np" or something. I think the rationale was that a sequel would need all new lore and stuff, which would take time and money to create, while remaking AIWC allows all the old lore to be used (with some minor tweaks perhaps). I suggested that may be something best discussed a bit more beforehand, or at least make an official notice or something, but I guess it wasn't seen as a big deal to most  :-\
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: x4000 on March 13, 2017, 10:57:42 AM
Keith put that in the design document for the second kickstarter, I believe.  Basically this is in a lot of ways seen as a reboot from a story sense, yes.  It's not that it is retelling the same story in some respects, but it's trying to evolve the older story and flesh it out more.  We lost... so much staff between the first and second kickstarters.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: TheVampire100 on March 13, 2017, 03:11:24 PM
Okay, I guess it makes sense because some of the lore elements of AIW1 didn't work well tigether or were to confusing, so retelling the story in a new, better way might be the wiser decision.

But I won't lie, I'm a little disappointed now.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on March 13, 2017, 04:02:15 PM
But I won't lie, I'm a little disappointed now.
You and me both, even if it was a bit earlier for me. I really like seeing a lot of lore and story in games, and now it will be using pretty similar lore to the previous one, though I was even more disappointed in being told that Spire were no longer going to be their own race you can play but will be mixed in with humans like the Fallen Spire campaign did.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: z99-_ on March 13, 2017, 04:16:51 PM
Keith put that in the design document for the second kickstarter, I believe.

I just reviewed (skimmed) the design doc, and I didn't see it mentioned there. It says in general "if it's mentioned in the first Kickstarter design document but not mentioned in this one, then it's not planned for this one", and since the story was mentioned in the first doc and not the second, I suppose that could be interpreted as the story being the same as AIWC? But that seems like a big stretch. If I missed it, feel free to point it out :)

We lost... so much staff between the first and second kickstarters.

With all the excitement around the current AIW2, it becomes easy to forget the troubles that led to this point :(. For the fans, at least. As the guy who had to had to tell his friends they were out of work, I imagine it sticks with you a lot more.

But you gotta play the cards you're dealt, right? I was also a bit disappointed initially with the change in setting, but seeing things move forward I've warmed up to the idea of "AIWC with better graphics and UI and more coherent story" quite a bit.

And besides, all the effort put into development of the original AIW2 lore doesn't have to go to waste! It can be used for the next AI War game. (Is it too soon to be discussing AIW3? :D)
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 13, 2017, 04:33:08 PM
This update in the second kickstarter is probably the best summary of how lore will be handled in the sequel: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arcengames/ai-war-ii-0/posts/1757302

Basically it was still up in the air internally when we re-launched the kickstarter, and as I realized what the staff losses meant and what I was best equipped to do, I went the way I did. I wasn't really done telling those stories, ultimately :)
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: z99-_ on March 13, 2017, 05:04:19 PM
This update in the second kickstarter is probably the best summary of how lore will be handled in the sequel: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arcengames/ai-war-ii-0/posts/1757302

Basically it was still up in the air internally when we re-launched the kickstarter, and as I realized what the staff losses meant and what I was best equipped to do, I went the way I did. I wasn't really done telling those stories, ultimately :)

tmw a game dev actually listens to your concerns and extensively responds to them, but you forget and go on to complain about it again in a random thread 3 months later :o

Sorry about that Keith! :-[

Thankfully most of my coworkers are elderly, so they don't notice my own memory lapses :-\
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: x4000 on March 13, 2017, 05:09:11 PM
It would be nice for us to be able to use some of the AIW2 lore from the original piece as even expansions to AIW2, who knows.  I'd like to think that we can build on AIW2 for a lot of years, like we did with AIWC, rather than going to sequel after sequel.  But yep, I don't see that stuff as a waste, either way.

2016 in a lot of ways was one long slow-mo of Arcen falling down the stairs, basically.  I accidentally pushed us off the top in mid 2015 without realizing it, tried to grab a hold of the railing in October 2015, missed and smashed out a bunch of teeth in January 2016, kept spinning down the stairs until hitting with a hard crack in the middle of the back in August, then another really hard smash to the face in October, and then finally in December we managed to grab out a hand and avoid completely splitting our head all the way open at the bottom.

There's still an alarming amount of blood all over the place, and teeth and such left behind all over the stairs, but we're conscious and standing back up again at the moment.

That was a violent metaphor, eh? ;)

Anyhow, it's meant that a few things got dropped or missed, such as that particular oversight on the state of the story.  Sorry about that not being more clear in the original document, but I don't want to go back and alter that now for fear of being revisionist about it.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 13, 2017, 05:11:19 PM
No worries :)

If anyone actually has read all the information we've put out about this project, and internalized it sufficiently to not forget any of it, then they've spent way too much time reading it ;)
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: x4000 on March 13, 2017, 05:14:27 PM
No worries :)

If anyone actually has read all the information we've put out about this project, and internalized it sufficiently to not forget any of it, then they've spent way too much time reading it ;)

Yeah, I don't even fit that description.  Not fully, anyhow.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: BadgerBadger on March 13, 2017, 05:19:25 PM
I think it would be kinda fun to start over from "The AI has just seized control of humanity, and now HERE you are. Good luck!" and then y'all can feel free to reintroduce elements of the old lore or do brand new lore as you feel appropriate.
Title: Re: The floor is now open for (LORE!) questions
Post by: Aklyon on March 13, 2017, 05:50:34 PM
No worries :)

If anyone actually has read all the information we've put out about this project, and internalized it sufficiently to not forget any of it, then they've spent way too much time reading it ;)
I think I've read most of it, but remembering it? Not really.

Because it is a lot of stuff!