Author Topic: The start with first planet option  (Read 466 times)

Online Ovalcircle1

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The start with first planet option
« on: December 20, 2017, 06:44:14 PM »
So, based on the new update ( https://forums.arcengames.com/ai-war-ii/ai-war-2-v0-612-released!-'ai-hunters-and-the-turrets-that-stop-them'/msg217244/#msg217244 ), the start with first planet option has been removed and you automatically start with one. Despite everyone wanting it gone, I am going to be the one person who wants it back, mostly for personal preferences. I hope this doesn't offend you, but when I play AIW Classic, I mess around with cheats and see how the different factions interact, rather than playing the game the way it was meant to be played. To make the AI as strong as possible, I make myself lose as fast as possible so the AI can free up ships to fight minor factions.  With the addition of the Nanocaust as an actual active threat (rather than some ships show up (marauders/resistance) and get blown to bits or the dark spire just obliterating everybody with no chance for defense), this is the perfect opportunity to watch the AI have an actual full-on battle without me having to do anything. This brings me to the main argument. The AI can rebuild now, which is awesome. Starting with the first planet messes this up. Let's say I make the AI the Reconquista plot (type?). It claims takes back territory. This can be used against the Nanocaust. However, if I start with the first planet, I have to kill my ark on an adjacent planet. Not only that, but the AI will have to come in and build stuff, taking time away from fighting the true threat.
TLDR: The new start with first planet non-option takes AI ships away from fighting the Nanocaust to fight the suicidal player and waste resources taking back the planet when said player doesn't even want the planet. My solution: instead of a checkbox for "Start with first planet", make a checkbox for "Do not start with first planet".
Edit 1: Also, I don't have the game so if I get information wrong, that's why.
Edit 2: Added a poll. I will not be voting.

Edit 3: Changed the poll topic as well as choices. All votes have been reset to zero.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 10:19:27 PM by Ovalcircle1 »
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2017, 07:35:29 PM »
I think I said it once and I will say it again: This is unnecessary. I rather would the whole "capture your first planet" model into a scenario.
AI war 2 could really, with mods and all, live from scenario campaigns with a storyline to follow, just like other RTS games do it. Pretty much what Fallen Spire was in AIWC.
I don't actually see the point in capturing your first planet during a skirmish campaign. Or maybe I'm missing here something.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2017, 07:36:48 PM »
The AI will capture your first planet so quickly without you building defenses (especially if you artificially inflate the Progress) that it's not going to be an issue.

Offline BadgerBadger

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 07:38:45 PM »
That said, if you want to watch the Nanocaust and the AI fight it out, I would love some descriptions from you of how the Nanocaust is doing in the late game. I haven't watched a Nanocaust game past 3 hours or so in a couple months. If it's "not aggressive enough" or "too aggressive" or things like that then that would be great feedback for tuning.

Online Ovalcircle1

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 07:56:09 PM »
That said, if you want to watch the Nanocaust and the AI fight it out, I would love some descriptions from you of how the Nanocaust is doing in the late game. I haven't watched a Nanocaust game past 3 hours or so in a couple months. If it's "not aggressive enough" or "too aggressive" or things like that then that would be great feedback for tuning.
I would, but unfortunately, I don't have the game.
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Online Ovalcircle1

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 09:59:54 PM »
I think I said it once and I will say it again: This is unnecessary. I rather would the whole "capture your first planet" model into a scenario.
AI war 2 could really, with mods and all, live from scenario campaigns with a storyline to follow, just like other RTS games do it. Pretty much what Fallen Spire was in AIWC.
I don't actually see the point in capturing your first planet during a skirmish campaign. Or maybe I'm missing here something.
Was it really hurting anybody by being there? The most damage that it could do is if someone forgot to click it to yes. By making it a negative version, it's asking if you don't want to start with the first planet. Just look at this video from Nov 11th. https://youtu.be/HRsS_C52fqs?t=11 . Just change it to on, or as I suggest, default it to on. It doesn't look like it's taking up space where something else could go. I mean look at this https://forums.arcengames.com/ai-war-ii/testing-ai-war-2/ The complaint was "#3. When starting a new the game, the game sometimes spawns you right next to the AI Controller which is where all the AI turrets and ships are. And some times clearing the first planet takes 10 minutes in-game time because of AI shields and shield guardians." to which the official response was "#3 - solved in 0.612". Yeah, because they took out the option to do so. It just seems lazy. "The problem has been solved because we got rid of the thing causing the problem." " In fact, this video from February ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjjSm2XXbLE ) shows that the player automatically did not start with the first planet. Then sometime later on by July 26th, there was an option. ( https://youtu.be/5DXmQoN_TXU?t=62 ). Now they removed it. Why bother removing it? It was in since the beginning. Seems like such a waste. For an AI War example, the infamous Astrotrains. Nobody really liked them. There was this one guy, https://forums.arcengames.com/ai-war-classic/rerouting-and-cargo-astro-trains-hacking-options-for-astro-trains/msg157017/#msg157017 , who likes them. If you read the rest of the posts, it's all about how to correctly balance them. Look at this one https://forums.arcengames.com/ai-war-classic/how-can-i-auto-target-astro-trains/ . I'm not sure if they ever got fixed, but they were/are universally hated with few exceptions. That problem is so many levels above this problem of "not starting with the first planet" it's ridiculous. Just make your ark spawn and everything else spawn away from it. Now, I'm not a developer or coder or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that it's simple for them to do. Or just make the first planet weak or something, with cannon fodder defending instead of Guardians. So many ways to fix it. I can excuse it if they took it out as they add more ships or something and need to make sure that they don't spawn on the first planet or something that's actually legitimate. What bothers me is there's no reason for it to be taken out other than people not wanting to see the option on the menu. Peer pressure at its finest.

Edit 1: By the way, your scenario excuse falls flat. If it was already in the main game, why relegate it into a scenario? Now you don't have it at all, unless your "scenario" makes it into the game. The whole first part of the game is using your Ark and ships to attack an adjacent planet. That's the same as the "start with no first planet", except it's on another planet and you can escape through a wormhole. It's such a tiny detail. What can come out of not having it? How about the Nanocaust? How about we take that out of the main game and put that into it's own "scenario". You want to use Spire ships in your game? Too bad, you have to choose a certain "scenario". Take the Golems out along with them. Put them in the "Golem scenario". The Fallen spire Campaign was an actual full fledged campaign in itself, of course within the main game. You can stop doing it at any time and play the game normally from then on. In scenarios, you're stuck with whatever rules have been assigned to it. If modders can make their own "scenarios" from the "do not start with first planet", it would be a lot easier if they actually had the code to do so already there. Which it was. Until yesterday. And if the code for it is still in the game, that's a slap to the face and a half.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 10:26:58 PM by Ovalcircle1 »
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 01:31:59 AM »
I honestly don't see the fun in doing a mundane task at the start of the game. And this is one. The first planet, if not captured, is pretty much trivial to conquer, it just wastes time, time you could put into real preparation for your true first planet. AI war Classic capitalized on looking what planet to conquer first. It gives you the time for preparation until you feel ready.
But having to start with an enemy planet pretty much means you have nothing to say here, you have to waste your units ont his planet first and then rebould them later. An option might be for some okay, but then again, I fail to see the fun in this. You have plenty of planets to capture ahead, no reason to start directly the game with one.

Also, you should turn down the sarcasm , seriously. You know what people use sarcasm? When they are cornored in a discussion and cannot find better arguments, so instead they use sarcasm to ridicule ideas. Think about this for a minute and then look again what you wrote.

The scenario idea was simply something tha I suggested, no need to be so passive aggressive towards it. The game could really use story-scenarios. And also, where on earth did I ever say that they should take game options away?
I just find the planet thing unecessary. AIWC did well without it. I simply don't liek the idea hat you start with "nothing" and are "in the middle of the enemies". it kinda feels odd, where was mankind until this point? Why were they safe but suddenly they pop up in the MIDDLE of the AI territory. Having your own planet at the start at least makes sense, it was the little rest that the AI left for the humans so they can waste their lives on some tiny space wher eit doesn't bother the AI.

Edit: Actually, why not make simply a sandbox mode? I think this would fit the game more and it can be parallel to the main game. It allows to add all the options that wouldn't fit into the main game, like no human players for example, so the Ai plays against other AI factions.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:38:28 AM by TheVampire100 »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 08:37:05 AM »
1) In the xml, add a Faction (I think the name of the folder is still SpecialFaction) named Observer
- in the external C#, copy the human faction code and strip out everything (there may be something to keep), including the logic for detecting win or loss
- it should still have Type=Human, to minimize impact on other logic

2) Create a ScenarioType named Sandbox
- in the external C# for setting up the factions, use Observer instead of the normal human faction

Done? I dunno, but it'd be pretty close.

Similarly, the option that was just removed could be modded back in, but I don't see it as having much value. A sandbox scenario has some value. A scenario built around the idea of starting on an AI planet has some value. But the normal scenario with that battle appended to the beginning doesn't have enough value to include in the official game.


Playing off the idea of "sandbox where you make the game play against itself", I think it would be interesting to mod in an Observer-like faction where you get a bunch of buttons like "Reveal this planet's neighbors", "Give this faction X resources", "Spawn pirates/monsters here", "Cause a tachyon storm here that disrupts all cloaking for X minutes", etc, and each of those costs some resource that you accumulate over time. Your challenge is to use those finite resources to maximize the total amount of interesting chaos and destruction in the game. So you get points every time a ship dies, but you get more points when the two sides in the battle are more equally matched, and even more when there's more than two sides participating in the fight, etc. And a general bonus for keeping as many of the original factions alive as possible. And a bonus for every time the "empire in first place" changes (max once every X minutes), etc.

The dream game of the passive-aggressive manipulator, in other words :)
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Online Ovalcircle1

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Re: The start with first planet option
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 01:22:09 PM »
I honestly don't see the fun in doing a mundane task at the start of the game. And this is one. The first planet, if not captured, is pretty much trivial to conquer, it just wastes time, time you could put into real preparation for your true first planet. AI war Classic capitalized on looking what planet to conquer first. It gives you the time for preparation until you feel ready.
But having to start with an enemy planet pretty much means you have nothing to say here, you have to waste your units ont his planet first and then rebould them later. An option might be for some okay, but then again, I fail to see the fun in this. You have plenty of planets to capture ahead, no reason to start directly the game with one.

Also, you should turn down the sarcasm , seriously. You know what people use sarcasm? When they are cornored in a discussion and cannot find better arguments, so instead they use sarcasm to ridicule ideas. Think about this for a minute and then look again what you wrote.

The scenario idea was simply something tha I suggested, no need to be so passive aggressive towards it. The game could really use story-scenarios. And also, where on earth did I ever say that they should take game options away?
I just find the planet thing unecessary. AIWC did well without it. I simply don't liek the idea hat you start with "nothing" and are "in the middle of the enemies". it kinda feels odd, where was mankind until this point? Why were they safe but suddenly they pop up in the MIDDLE of the AI territory. Having your own planet at the start at least makes sense, it was the little rest that the AI left for the humans so they can waste their lives on some tiny space wher eit doesn't bother the AI.

Edit: Actually, why not make simply a sandbox mode? I think this would fit the game more and it can be parallel to the main game. It allows to add all the options that wouldn't fit into the main game, like no human players for example, so the Ai plays against other AI factions.
I'm sorry about the sarcasm. I'm a sarcastic person and I try to keep it out of these types of discussions, but I was worked up about it and since sarcasm doesn't translate well through text, I compensated by being so sarcastic it was almost impossible not to tell.  I was just bummed that it got taken out and it was wrong of me to take it out my frustration on you. Also, considering the amount of time I watch AI vs AI matches in games along with AIW Classic, I can't believe I didn't think of a sandbox mode.
1) In the xml, add a Faction (I think the name of the folder is still SpecialFaction) named Observer
- in the external C#, copy the human faction code and strip out everything (there may be something to keep), including the logic for detecting win or loss
- it should still have Type=Human, to minimize impact on other logic

2) Create a ScenarioType named Sandbox
- in the external C# for setting up the factions, use Observer instead of the normal human faction

Done? I dunno, but it'd be pretty close.

Similarly, the option that was just removed could be modded back in, but I don't see it as having much value. A sandbox scenario has some value. A scenario built around the idea of starting on an AI planet has some value. But the normal scenario with that battle appended to the beginning doesn't have enough value to include in the official game.
1.You're right. It doesn't really add value. You're making the game, so you would be the one to know.


Playing off the idea of "sandbox where you make the game play against itself", I think it would be interesting to mod in an Observer-like faction where you get a bunch of buttons like "Reveal this planet's neighbors", "Give this faction X resources", "Spawn pirates/monsters here", "Cause a tachyon storm here that disrupts all cloaking for X minutes", etc, and each of those costs some resource that you accumulate over time. Your challenge is to use those finite resources to maximize the total amount of interesting chaos and destruction in the game. So you get points every time a ship dies, but you get more points when the two sides in the battle are more equally matched, and even more when there's more than two sides participating in the fight, etc. And a general bonus for keeping as many of the original factions alive as possible. And a bonus for every time the "empire in first place" changes (max once every X minutes), etc.

The dream game of the passive-aggressive manipulator, in other words :)
2. I would rather just have absolute control without the limited resources. But this will work. It's like you're some outside force that can only give the galaxy small nudges in a direction. It really does seems interesting, with the points and manipulating the galaxy to be in some sort of balance (read: controlled chaos) to get said points. Sounds good to me. I get the sandbox mode I want, and others get, well, the sandbox mode as well. Everybody is happy. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 07:07:48 PM by Ovalcircle1 »
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