Author Topic: Modular ships - show of hands  (Read 3433 times)

Offline Cinth

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2016, 01:14:36 PM »
Wow, this is overwhelmingly matching my own opinion (no modular ships).  That's awesome.  Keith brought up that a lot of stuff uses these and therefore that we'd be stripping out a lot to remove these.  But honestly I feel like there are so many better things we could spend our time on.  Designing ships is something that I as a player just never feel inclined to do, anyway.

That's not that awesome.  That pretty much kills most of my favorite ships.   :'(
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline x4000

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2016, 01:16:53 PM »
Wow, this is overwhelmingly matching my own opinion (no modular ships).  That's awesome.  Keith brought up that a lot of stuff uses these and therefore that we'd be stripping out a lot to remove these.  But honestly I feel like there are so many better things we could spend our time on.  Designing ships is something that I as a player just never feel inclined to do, anyway.

That's not that awesome.  That pretty much kills most of my favorite ships.   :'(

Oh.  :-\

Well, one thing is that this could potentially be a stretch goal.  I don't want to do a lot of those, but this seems like one of those things where it needs to be "we put in a lot of effort and do it RIGHT" if people are interested, or we don't let it clutter the main scope.

I have some things that will be explained probably tomorrow that might supplant some of the desire for this anyhow, we shall see.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2016, 01:24:42 PM »
Riot Starships are definitely my favorite starship.  But if they were replaced with a non-modular version I'd probably be happy.

Offline x4000

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2016, 01:29:17 PM »
Riot Starships are definitely my favorite starship.  But if they were replaced with a non-modular version I'd probably be happy.

Right, that's what I mean as well.  A lot of the things that are presently modular could have just some pre-baked alternatives that are set up that are not modular but work in a cool way.  Nothing would be stopping that.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2016, 01:46:46 PM »
The Riot Control Starship offer only one true choice

Now that this is put in front of me this starkly:
I build my riot control starships in exactly one configuration.  I don't use tractors myself (I do two force fields, then mount all lasers) and never switch it up.

I think its the fact that I like the idea but don't see any hard choices where all the options are equally valid.

You don't use the shotguns? I love those things! The tazer is good too. Riot I doesn't offer a lot of choies, but you can wreak havok with II and III.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2016, 01:50:13 PM »
<Strip modular ships from player control>
A fair call, one that I don't like either, but fair call. :) Although from the modding perspective, I would like to maintain the feasibility of overhauling combat into on based around Fallen Spire or Battlestar Galactica-type gameplay, from the AI-War focus on single-weapon craft.

Offline Tridus

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2016, 01:53:06 PM »
Riot Starships are definitely my favorite starship.  But if they were replaced with a non-modular version I'd probably be happy.

Right, that's what I mean as well.  A lot of the things that are presently modular could have just some pre-baked alternatives that are set up that are not modular but work in a cool way.  Nothing would be stopping that.

Yeah, I think that "replace modular ships with ship types where you pick from a handful of designs" is a pretty reasonable direction to go. That still gets you the variety in what the ship can do, without the complexity that manual module editing brings. The UI actually offered that already for Riot ships IIRC, there were options to build an empty one, and then a couple of template ones that were already set up. It's a pretty simple UI to pick from the preset templates. (You could also make your own version and then pick that one, which is how I built all my Spire ships.)

Presumably modders could add new templates to the ones that are available, which can really open some neat things that people can do.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2016, 01:56:20 PM »
You don't use the shotguns? I love those things! The tazer is good too. Riot I doesn't offer a lot of choies, but you can wreak havok with II and III.

Oh I used the Tazer. No fear there. I, uh, may be inadvertantly responsible for certain changes made to riots and the tazers after perma-stunning whole waves of ships with a full cap of Mk2s and 3s outfitted with tazer modules.
But no, I went lasers over shotguns, preferring long range to better engine damage.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2016, 02:04:10 PM »
I have some things that will be explained probably tomorrow that might supplant some of the desire for this anyhow, we shall see.
*.*
Can't wait.

I must admit, I miss your interventions. I totally understand you can't be everywhere, but I'd like to see you more often cut the debate after several pages. For instance, will we keep the armor mechanism? Will we keep the Hull Bonuses? But maybe you're not decided yet.


About the modularity, I'm pleased with that decision. I would be okay to keep it as a champion-only thing (while I'm not forced to play with them), but I feel outside of that (riot, fortress and Fallen Spire) they are more distraction than tool.
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Offline PokerChen

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2016, 02:10:35 PM »
On the point of only ever building 1~3 templates for a ship type, I feel that lack of usefulness of modularity, in AI War Classic, is partly a product of overall game variety.
- There's two optimums in conventional weapons: either combined arms, or max one tech, even if the AI sends only one type of ship at a time.
- Players can never have enough infinite-range weapons and plasma sieges, so that's how your Spire Fleet generally turns out.
- Shields are the only defensive options for Spire Fleets, Champions and Modular Forts. They don't have access to other mechanics like health regen, armor, phasing, teleport, etc.

If that's how the combat philosophy is maintained, then yeah modular isn't useful. You'd want the viable paths offered in Gratuitous Space Battles to justify asking players to kit out their own ships. (Multiple viable options in all categories: defense, offense, mobility, utility).

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2016, 02:21:59 PM »
I think the only modular ship I've used where it's actually a choice what I built was the protector starship. But those are fairly easy to switch to a non-modular multiple variant system. And overpowered.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2016, 02:39:34 PM »
- There's two optimums in conventional weapons: either combined arms, or max one tech, even if the AI sends only one type of ship at a time.
How about maxing ALL the tech.

Quote
- Players can never have enough infinite-range weapons and plasma sieges, so that's how your Spire Fleet generally turns out.


Hey! I put lasers on my Spire!

Quote
- Shields are the only defensive options for Spire Fleets, Champions and Modular Forts. They don't have access to other mechanics like health regen, armor, phasing, teleport, etc.

Champions have access to a heal.  A pretty damn good one at that.  Modular Forts have the same regen mechanic that regular fortress have.

Quote
If that's how the combat philosophy is maintained, then yeah modular isn't useful. You'd want the viable paths offered in Gratuitous Space Battles to justify asking players to kit out their own ships. (Multiple viable options in all categories: defense, offense, mobility, utility).

Just because you don't find it useful doesn't mean someone else hasn't.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline x4000

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2016, 02:52:21 PM »
Multi-weapon != modular, to me.  Modular means the ability for you to put on and off modules on the ships at your discretion during gameplay.  Multi-weapon are something designed in the data (by design or otherwise).
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Offline Timerlane

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2016, 03:02:45 PM »
Yeah, I can agree that while I like ships that happen to be modular, I usually have whatever I think the min-maxed config is and stick with it.

Hey! I put lasers on my Spire!
Beam Cannons? I can agree with that(I do prefer Plasma on Spire Corvettes, over the Human-tech beam modules), but the Imperial Spire-tech Railguns have Radar Dampening Immunity on top of the infinite range, so that's a huge bonus over any of the other 'small' turret options in my book.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Modular ships - show of hands
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2016, 03:07:57 PM »
Yeah, I can agree that while I like ships that happen to be modular, I usually have whatever I think the min-maxed config is and stick with it.

Hey! I put lasers on my Spire!
Beam Cannons? I can agree with that(I do prefer Plasma on Spire Corvettes, over the Human-tech beam modules), but the Imperial Spire-tech Railguns have Radar Dampening Immunity on top of the infinite range, so that's a huge bonus over any of the other 'small' turret options in my book.

All kinds of lasers.  I usually have a mix of weaponry spread about the different hulls.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.