Author Topic: Tubo-boosted AI group?  (Read 1887 times)

Offline Elestan

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Tubo-boosted AI group?
« on: October 26, 2017, 11:21:16 AM »
I'm occasionally seeing groups of AI ships moving at ridiculous speeds, with no apparent explanation  For example, there's a group of Flagships, Plasma Siege, Fighters, and Missile Frigates currently showing "Speed up to 301" (more than 10x their normal speed).  Any idea what might cause this?

The current system does have an AI home station, which would be +100% speed, but that's not nearly enough to explain this.  When the ships exited that system, they slowed to "Speed up to 153".  So it seems like something is resetting their speed to 153 (regardless of starting value), and then applying the home station +100% to the boosted value.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 11:30:12 AM by Elestan »

Offline x4000

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 11:39:59 AM »
Is the AI type "speed racer" or something along those lines?  There's one of them that gives a huge speed boost to their ships.

There might also be some sort of device on that or adjacent planets that is causing the boost.  I can't recall if the speed booster machine that the AI has is interplanetary (the planet it is on plus all directly linked ones) or if it's just for the planet it's on.

Could be there is such a device on a planet next to the two planets you are looking at, hence you not seeing the source of it yet.
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Offline Elestan

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 12:19:29 PM »
Is the AI type "speed racer" or something along those lines?  There's one of them that gives a huge speed boost to their ships.

Nope... 7/7 Bouncer/Bouncer

Quote
There might also be some sort of device on that or adjacent planets that is causing the boost.  I can't recall if the speed booster machine that the AI has is interplanetary (the planet it is on plus all directly linked ones) or if it's just for the planet it's on.

Could be there is such a device on a planet next to the two planets you are looking at, hence you not seeing the source of it yet.

Nope; this is a completionist game I've been playing for a while; the AI only has one planet left, with just the Home CS on it.  I could simply win, but I'm intending to see what it's like when I trigger the Fallen Spire, Showdown, and Exodian Blade endings simultaneously.  Should be 'fun'.  :-)

Offline x4000

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 12:22:58 PM »
Hmm, okay -- I'd have to guess it's related to one of those other factions, then.  Keith might have a better guess on that.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 01:11:57 PM »
Since it's only some of the AI units, and they appear to be moving as a group, it's probably the exo strikeforces coming in response to those various superweapons. Exo ships always travel at the speed of the "lead ship" (generally the strongest individual ship in the group). That's probably ~150 in this case, and the HCS is doubling it.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 01:34:33 PM »
Aha!  TIL.  Or TIR, anyway. ;)
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Offline Elestan

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 08:45:52 PM »
Exo ships always travel at the speed of the "lead ship" (generally the strongest individual ship in the group).
That seems like the right explanation, but it also seems like a bug to me.  A group should travel at the rate of its slowest ship; that's how groups of ships work everywhere else in the game.

Offline x4000

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 08:57:07 PM »
Exos are... special in a lot of ways, heh.  The interface should probably communicate it better, but they're meant to be unusually brutal.
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Offline Elestan

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 09:45:04 PM »
Exos are... special in a lot of ways, heh.  The interface should probably communicate it better, but they're meant to be unusually brutal.

Hmm....this feels like an attempt to paint a bug as not a bug by saying that it makes the game harder, thereby appealing to the AIW community's attitude of prideful masochism.   :P

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2017, 10:26:41 PM »
Exos are... special in a lot of ways, heh.  The interface should probably communicate it better, but they're meant to be unusually brutal.

Hmm....this feels like an attempt to paint a bug as not a bug by saying that it makes the game harder, thereby appealing to the AIW community's attitude of prideful masochism.   :P
It is actually quite intentional, as a balance decision, to not have exos either be A) Slow or B) Bomberless :)
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Offline Elestan

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 12:23:04 AM »
Exos are... special in a lot of ways, heh.  The interface should probably communicate it better, but they're meant to be unusually brutal.
Hmm....this feels like an attempt to paint a bug as not a bug by saying that it makes the game harder, thereby appealing to the AIW community's attitude of prideful masochism.   :P
It is actually quite intentional, as a balance decision, to not have exos either be A) Slow or B) Bomberless :)

My problem with it is that when a game breaks its own rules, it also breaks the illusion of the game's world, and that can be very detrimental to the enjoyment of the game.  When I see a flotilla of Plasma Siege Starships magically moving like Raid Starships, my mental reaction is not the excitement of facing a new and serious challenge; it's the irritation of being stuck in a game with a cheater - the same as if those ships were given other arbitrarily superpowers like immunity to damage multipliers, or mobile autofire OMDs.  It's such a departure from the game's established setting that it just feels fake.

IMHO, if you really need exowaves to be fast, you can do it in a more believable way by making them from fast ships, so that you don't need to fudge their movement.  If there aren't fast ships that do what you want, you can always add them to the game as a new experimental type.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 06:27:50 AM »
My problem with it is that when a game breaks its own rules, it also breaks the illusion of the game's world, and that can be very detrimental to the enjoyment of the game.
If a Speed Racer AI can boost all its ships to 300 (or whatever it is), why does it require further suspension of disbelief that the AI can send special strikeforces where the lead ship has the ability to speed-boost all of the ships to keep up with it?
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Offline Elestan

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 09:10:33 AM »
My problem with it is that when a game breaks its own rules, it also breaks the illusion of the game's world, and that can be very detrimental to the enjoyment of the game.
If a Speed Racer AI can boost all its ships to 300 (or whatever it is), why does it require further suspension of disbelief that the AI can send special strikeforces where the lead ship has the ability to speed-boost all of the ships to keep up with it?

If a player picks (or permits) a special AI type, they're explicitly giving the AI a license to cheat in specific ways to up the challenge level - I think it would be fine if "Fast exo-waves" was an option along those lines.

Offline Elestan

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2017, 11:08:48 PM »
I've also discovered that when ships are moving this fast, gravity turrets are of limited effectiveness; the ships seem to move so quickly that they jump most or all of the way through the grav field before the game can register its effect on them.  Slowing the game down to -10 and pausing frequently seems to help some.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Tubo-boosted AI group?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2017, 04:01:38 AM »
I've also discovered that when ships are moving this fast, gravity turrets are of limited effectiveness; the ships seem to move so quickly that they jump most or all of the way through the grav field before the game can register its effect on them.  Slowing the game down to -10 and pausing frequently seems to help some.
Some Lead ships are immune to gravity effects - Spirecraft and Golems, for example.  If the Lead craft of an Exowave is immune, the followers will also be immune until the Lead ship is destroyed - then they revert to normal behavior.
I don't remember ever seeing Exowaves ignoring gravity effects otherwise.