Author Topic: Special Forces Behaviour  (Read 2205 times)

Offline TheVampire100

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Special Forces Behaviour
« on: June 18, 2016, 06:47:54 PM »
Just want some information on special forces. The AI reinforces the special forces guardposts with special forces on reinforcement cycles. Only on alerted planets liek normal reinforcements or even when these planets are not alerted?
Special foces patrol between the different guard posts if I remember correctly. But they will also rush towards planets that I attack, which the Ai cares about. what does this mean? Planets with important structures like core shield generators? Or simply planets with special forces guard posts on them?

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2016, 02:28:39 AM »
That would be a good pretext to make the SF page on the wiki.

The AI reinforces the special forces guardposts with special forces on reinforcement cycles.
Correct. Wiki page on reinforcement here.

Only on alerted planets like normal reinforcements or even when these planets are not alerted?
Alerted planets are more likely to receive reinforcement.That means the AI is capable or reinforcing planets that are not alerted. Which means that SF can be reinforced even if there is no SF GP on alerted planets; however, the SF reinforcement rate will be lower if no SF GP are alerted.

Special forces patrol between the different guard posts
Correct.
But they will also rush towards planets that I attack, which the Ai cares about. what does this mean? Planets with important structures like core shield generators? Or simply planets with special forces guard posts on them?
I'm less sure on that part, but I think that means planets with ARS and Advanced Factory and Advanced Starship Constructor. (Planets seeded with A-prime and B CSG.) I think the SF is also more aggressive at higher difficulty level. At a certain threshold, it is allowed to attack neutral and just captured planets. If the SF is consequent (has not been recently destroyed), capturing a planet is much more challenging.

I think there is also a cap for the SF size, at least for Riot Control Starships, but I have no idea on which parameters that limit depends (I'm not even sure there is a limit).
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2016, 11:00:57 PM »

Alerted planets are more likely to receive reinforcement.That means the AI is capable or reinforcing planets that are not alerted. Which means that SF can be reinforced even if there is no SF GP on alerted planets; however, the SF reinforcement rate will be lower if no SF GP are alerted.


Just a question for clarity.

Your first part indicates the total amount of reinforcements remains constant, but the % toward alert planets are higher then if the planet is not. However, the second part indicates the total amount increases with alerted planets. Are both true?
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2016, 02:36:09 AM »

Alerted planets are more likely to receive reinforcement.That means the AI is capable or reinforcing planets that are not alerted. Which means that SF can be reinforced even if there is no SF GP on alerted planets; however, the SF reinforcement rate will be lower if no SF GP are alerted.
Just a question for clarity.

Your first part indicates the total amount of reinforcements remains constant, but the % toward alert planets are higher then if the planet is not. However, the second part indicates the total amount increases with alerted planets. Are both true?
I'm not an expert, I just suppose things work that way. I would have thought you knew that kind of AIW's innards better than me, Chemical Art.

So, I believe the total amount of reinforcement is constant through the galaxy, and a greater part is assigned to alerted planets. That mean Guard Posts on alerted planets will receive a greater part of reinforcements. So SF GP on alerted planets will receive a greater part of reinforcement. If there is no SF GP on alerted planets, the only SF GP that will receive reinforcement are the ones on non-alerted planets, which receive a smaller part of the total amount of reinforcement. In the end, if there is no SF GP on alerted planets, the proportion of reinforced SF GP in the total of reinforced GP is lower.

In conclusion, I believe SF reinforcement is slower if there is no SF GP on alerted planets.

Was that clearer?
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2016, 04:12:28 AM »
So a guy activated advanced logging and got a headache.

Aaaand it seems I was wrong. It appear (as far as I understand that... log... thingy) Special Forces do their reinforcement separately. There is no trace of SF in LogicLog_AIMechanic_Reinforcements_MainThread.txt and there is a section for SF spawn in LogicLog_AIMechanic_SpecialForces.txt, which is mainly log for SF routing logic.

Quote from: LogicLog_AIMechanic_SpecialForces.txt
06/20/2016 08:47:01 (8.023)
-----------------------------------
Doing Special Forces Spawn; Game Time: 1:59:42
baseSizeFactor = 30
specialDifficultyFactor = Game.Instance.Options.TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier (based on difficulty, homeworld count, handicap) = 4.5
effectiveAIP = 114
aiTypeMultiplier = (1 + 2 per Special Forces Captain AI) = 1
nonAIPlanetCountMultiplier = Mat.One + ( FInt.FromParts( 0, 020 ) * numberOfSpecialForcesPostsInNonAITerritory ) = 1.12
specialForcesStrengthCap = baseSizeFactor * difficultyFactor * effectiveAIP * aiTypeMultiplier * nonAIPlanetCountMultiplier = 17216.06
strengthMissing = specialForcesStrengthCap - totalExistingSpecialForcesStrength = 16085.66
percentMissing = strengthMissing / specialForcesStrengthCap = 0.93
maxNumberOfSecondsToSpawn196Strength = ( ( 196 * 300 ) / specialForcesStrengthCap ) * 60 = 204.92
actualNumberOfSecondsToSpawn196Strength = maxNumberOfSecondsToSpawn196Strength - ( ( maxNumberOfSecondsToSpawn196Strength / 2 ) * percentMissing ) = 109.19
strengthToSpawn = (FInt)( secondsPerSpawnCheck * 196 ) / actualNumberOfSecondsToSpawn196Strength = 113.09
CurrentStrengthDebt is 84.58 so reducing CurrentStrengthDebt to zero and strengthToSpawn to 28.51.
strengthToSpawn = Min(strengthToSpawn,strengthMissing) = 28.51
allocating 0.25 out of 1 (7.23 strength) for role: None , eligible types:MissileShipII, EyeBotII, ZenithMedicFrigateII, ShieldBearerII
allocating 0.54 out of 1 (15.39 strength) for role: AntiBomber , eligible types:FighterII
allocating 0 out of 1 (0 strength) for role: LongRange , eligible types:
allocating 0 out of 1 (0 strength) for role: CopperPlatedBastard , eligible types:
allocating 0 out of 1 (0 strength) for role: Tractor , eligible types:
allocating 0 out of 1 (0 strength) for role: Gravity , eligible types:
allocating 0 out of 1 (0 strength) for role: Reclamator , eligible types:
allocating 0.12 out of 1 (3.43 strength) for role: DefenseCracker , eligible types:BomberII, SpireStealthBattleshipII
allocating 0.09 out of 1 (2.44 strength) for role: RiotControl , eligible types:RiotControlStarshipI
actually bought:
3 MissileShipII @ 2 each, so total for line = 6
1 EyeBotII @ 4 each, so total for line = 4
8 FighterII @ 2 each, so total for line = 16
2 BomberII @ 2 each, so total for line = 4
1 RiotControlStarshipI @ 48 each, so total for line = 48
Grand total: 15 ships, 78 strength
Overspent by 49.49 so CurrentStrengthDebt is now 49.49 and will be considered by next spawning pulse.
"CopperPlatedBastard"? Who's that funny named ship?
I believe the lines with no eligible ships are for the Hunter Plot. I'll have to run some other tests.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2016, 05:19:14 PM »
Glancing at those notes, it seems to indicate what I already suspected: The largest dynamic factors toward the growing strength of SF are the number of planets a player owns and effective AIP, with alerted planets receiving a larger share of those forces.
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 07:09:03 PM »
 
I think the SF is also more aggressive at higher difficulty level. At a certain threshold, it is allowed to attack neutral and just captured planets.

I'm not sure this is correct.  If you attack a planet the SF cares about, it will trigger a move command for the SF to that planet.  If you take that planet, there may be a delay before they notice, resulting in them charging into a planet that the AI doesn't actually own.  They should get a command to fall back after a while and depart on their own, if there's nothing for them to fight (and they won't pursue). 

The Hunter subplot also modifies the SF behavior at high intensities; I think some of the scarier units spawned can recruit SF as escorts as they attack or somesuch. 

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2016, 07:19:56 PM »
Thanks, this is really helpful. If I somehow manage to destroy all Special Forces Guard Posts, the reinforcments of them will stop but what happens to the ramaining special forces? Count htey as threat, similiar to freed units from normal guard posts?

Offline Toranth

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2016, 09:42:26 PM »
Thanks, this is really helpful. If I somehow manage to destroy all Special Forces Guard Posts, the reinforcments of them will stop but what happens to the ramaining special forces? Count htey as threat, similiar to freed units from normal guard posts?
I'm... not sure that destroying all the SF Guard Posts would actually stop the Special Forces units from spawning.  I am pretty certain it wouldn't stop the remaining units from still acting like SF, though.  It that case, you could expect to still see the SF show up every time you attack something important, just in smaller and smaller numbers (until there were none).


Unfortunately, there's still a mix of information about the old SF and new SF behaviors, and honestly I haven't thought about the details of the SF in years.  I go to major systems, it attacks me there.  It gets bigger as time goes on.  Hunter makes it kill me.  Done.

Offline Lord Of Nothing

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2016, 05:47:42 AM »
AI home command stations also act to spawn special forces as well, so they'll never run out, no.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2016, 09:00:14 AM »
I'm rather sad realizing how few impact SF GP have on SF. They don't seem to impact reinforcement speed (on alerted planets or not) or cap, only the spawning location (which, for a mobile force, is rather insignificant) and idle routing points. The SF GP have no regular guards, so they don't count in reinforcement (a line in the regular reinforcement log file clearly ignore them: "FgNonWormholeNonSpecialForcesGuardPosts."). The SF GP are very different from guard posts on core concepts (reinforcement, alert, etc).

I would be glad if SF GP would be just removed. SF would be allowed to spawn on and idle-routing to any AI OCStation. I think the game would be much less confusing about what the SF GP do. I'm curious to hear what people in favor of keeping the SF GP have to say (because it would be something I certainly don't know about the game).
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline tadrinth

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2016, 06:21:55 PM »
The spawning location may matter if you split the graph.  If you're on an X map and you take the center, each arm will get SF forces. You might not want the SF spawning in a particular arm.  For example, if you have Hunter enabled, you might prefer the SF to spawn on the far side of the your massive choke at the center of the map.  Killing the SF guard posts lets you do that. 

If the SF will only idle-rally to planets with an SF guard post, then killing SF guard posts lets you control where they hang out.  That may also be useful, as carriers don't move very quickly and the SF don't use group move.  On a large map, forcing the SF to idle-rally somewhere far from planets you care about gives you more time to take those planets before the SF shows up. It also gives you more time to kill the fighters before the bombers show up and the bombers before the missile frigates, due to different speed units spreading out as they travel. 

Haven't had enough trouble with the SF to bother trying either of those, but they seem like they should work.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2016, 06:26:11 PM »
Haven't had enough trouble with the SF to bother trying either of those, but they seem like they should work.
Play with an AI using the Special Forces Captain type, or activate the Hunter plot.  Or, for most !Fun!, do 2 AIs with SFC AND Hunter 10.  Believe me, you WILL pay attention to the SF at that point.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 06:30:25 AM »
Well, okay. I didn't think about that kind of edge case. Interesting.

But then... the "guard post" name sounds confusing. I read in the patch notes that tachyon sentinels were former guardians, and there were rules of guardian spawning that always precised "non-tachyon-guardian". I think the "non-special-force-non-wormhole-guard-post" is a burden for both the internal game's engine and the players trying to understand it. IMO, the game must name it "special forces picket" or something and don't consider it a guard post at all. Just like the tachyon sentinel isn't a guardian.

Speaking of that... a special forces sentinel would make the tachyon sentinel less odd. The players would clearly understand "sentinels are immobile units with a special role that is not the role of a guard post".

Whole different matter, but... wormhole sentinels?
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: Special Forces Behaviour
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2016, 12:28:38 PM »
As I understand it, 'Guard post' is supposed to imply 'structure that gets reinforcements'.   Special forces guard posts do get reinforcements, so that's the correct name for them.  Tachyon sentinels do not get reinforcements, so they have a different name. 

However, the reinforcement placement logic is broken (mantis here https://arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=18806) so that all regular reinforcements are placed at the command station.  So, Wormhole Guard Posts should meet the definition but currently don't.  Not sure if SF reinforcements are placed at the SF guard post or not, but they roam around so it doesn't matter as much.   

Also, Pumpkin, SF guard posts used to have a much stronger impact on the SF's reinforcement budget, but at the time they also cost +1 AIP on death and weren't autotargeted.  I think this was changed to allow the player to clear SF guard posts off human-controlled planets without cost, without creating a strong incentive to go kill every single SF guard post on the map.

Play with an AI using the Special Forces Captain type, or activate the Hunter plot.  Or, for most !Fun!, do 2 AIs with SFC AND Hunter 10.  Believe me, you WILL pay attention to the SF at that point.

A game like that is on my list, but at the rate I finish campaigns, it'll be a while. 

« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 05:55:04 PM by tadrinth »