Some Negative Feedback [Sorry]

[Philo]

Couldn't you make the Siege Starship a kind of an Artillery type ship. "It's a gun with engines on it" says on the description. Make it a very slow reloading high damage ship that has extra damage against Forcefields. That way you could try kind of sniping tactics with it. Defend the siege starship and snipe out the forcefields. This would still make the bomber starships useful since they would generally be faster at taking out forcefields but would require them to get close.

[Zeba]

"* Added "Toggle Use-Group-Move-By-Default" In-Game key-bind (no default key, but you can set one on the In-Game tab of the input bindings window):
** Toggles the value of the Use-Group-Move-By-Default global control (normally changed through the controls screen, but can be set this way for convenience).
** Note that if you have the controls window open while using this key-bind, the controls window will not automatically update to reflect the change as that would destroy any changes made since the window was opened.
** To make it easier to know which way it was toggled (without having to open the controls window, which would defeat the purpose), using this toggle displays a local message on the screen noting the change."


You are a god amoungst men good sir.

[superking]

^ although having read that again, it really seems like having the visible button would do the same thing only without the need to press a key and while more clearly indicating its state...

the balance between many of the bonus types (specifically base game & zenith rem) is actually pretty good, if less interesting than the 3.0 interactions.

teleport raiders, impulse emitters, deflection drones, acid sprayers & most the neinzul types are weak and I suspect are still never chosen by experienced players as starting types.

spacetanks & Z charmeleons suffer from being dull concepts (just bombers with better stats.) the tank isnt especially slow or tough, and the charmeleon is just a bomber with huge DPS but without the bonuses (and with a superfluous invisiblility while stationary, given their stats). Z charmeleon would be more interesting as a slow defensive ambush unit, and spacetanks as somthing with a little more contrast from the bomber.

N viral shredders never received the reproduction from lightning that made their concept interesting. the N ais attack waves are not well balanced or enjoyable to fight.

due to some interaction with the new armour system, the Z mirror no longer causes any significant damage with reflected projectiles (where before it had the possiblity to be incredibly devestating, or just die almost instantly toshots from a missle unit). its gone from one of the most interesting and potentially most powerful units (but not often) to somthing very washed out, a tougher deflection drone with a superfluous reflection ability.

the new parasites, both the standard ship and the leech starship, are sterile and uninteresting now, with complicated formulas governing their reclamation and a general loss of identity. the leech starship in particular has gone from one of the most iconic units (the spray of leech projectiles, the clever methods players developed of optimising farming). the old parasite system sure wasnt balanced, but it was fun, it was interesting and it could potentially have been balanced into sanity without being gutted. the new system is not interesting, and while the parasite bonus ship is actually more effective (in some circumstances) than the old ones, the new leech starship is horrible and dull... a large element of the 3.0 gameplay that really was fun removed.

the bomber starship had a more interesting concept in 3.0 (the spray of bomber projectiles that crippled engines) than it does now (a slow firing seige starship weapon with super short range).

the light starship is useless and very expensive now, and it dies to gaurdians almost instantly.

the flagship is likewise very weak compared to the other lines, where it used to be a powerhouse. the old 3.0 debate was always whether to unlock raid, flagship or leech first; now, raid is the best choice. bomber starships are the alternative, vital unless you want to spend long periods of game watching the HP of spire gaurdposts slowly trickle down. flagships are potentially useful for the damage boosts, but weak. seige starships are no longer useful at sniping gaurdposts or hitting shields from a distance where the nightmares underneath cant rip you apart (the two reasons players are most likely to want a seige unit) and now perform anti gaurdian & starship only- however, their targetting is inconsistant and they have no effect vs Stealth battleships, blade spawners or tractor platform, all of which are terrifiying at MK III+ and all difficult to counter in the rapidity that the AI reinforces them. the leech starship is not worth using or unlocking. the raid starships stats seem completely unreasonable and illgoical (an ultra-light armour type, only with 90,000 armour.. that seems like alot of armour, but its also the fastest ship in the game and the most resilient starship for straight up fighting.)

the spire fleetships are overpowered. fighting an AI with gravity rippers or the other slowing type becomes agony. the armour rotter is incredibly powerful and effective in the players hands (for attacking gaurdians, gaurdposts, starships etc). the blade spawner is the ultimate seige units in players hands, and in the AIs hands makes attacking AI systems a miserable affair. the tractor platform is devestating in the AIs hands because the numbers they reinforce with and their armour type (turret) making them difficult to quickly destroy with most units (and immunity to seige); the stealth battleship at higher marks (III+) is madness (and when used by the player, in a group with MK I, II & III together becomes an all powerful raiding tool), and in the hands of the AI (ie. large numbers, cloak, dampening and seige immunity) almost unstoppable.

a number of gameplay mechanics- AI eye + spire gaurdposts, fortresses etc- make the player resort to long periods of extremely dull and agonizing repetition.

all of these might seem like minor niggles, but they add up to somthing fairly broken. I find most of my games atm are ruined by the apperance of AI spire fleetships, whereby I take gross losses and get frustrated.

[TechSY730]

Almost everything of what you said is valid. I would take issue about how "iconic" and "fun" the silliness of 3.0 leech starships are, and the severely low ship caps of the spire "fleet" ships, for both the humans and the AI, do help to prevent them from being total game breakers. But for the most part you are right, the devs have quite a large number of issues to deal with before the post 4.0 versions can get to the 3.0 levels of balance and "interestingness".

I would agree that the balance of spire "fleet" ships,  most certainly need to be looked at though; overall, they are too powerful for even their absurdly low ship cap. (The slowing spire fleet ships in particular may need to major tweaking, thanks to how severe slowing effects are to game-play)


Basically, it took them three major versions under the old system to get 3.0 to its balanced state, and moreover, where almost all ships were interesting to use. We are only on the major second version under this new system. If they don't get it to a similar level of balance by 6.0, then I will start complaining. 

Why even bother with the new system then? Well, despite the massive balance upheaval it created, the new system is far more balanced. When a new unit is added, there doesn't need to be 2n-1 new variables tweaked for damage bonuses (its bonus against all the other existing ships, and the other ships' bonuses against it), but rather only m+1 (its hull type, and its bonuses against hull types), and m<<n. So yea, it was, and continues to be, painful to live through the large number of balance passes needed to get things balanced AND interesting under the new system, but once it is done, it will be far easier to maintain this balance as the game grows. In other words, it will be worth it, I'm sure of that. 

[Fruden]

 Hi! I still play this game from time to time but i too have gone back to a previous version and decided not to buy the latest expansion yet. I'm playing 4.053 rather than 5.x since it's almost right besides the boring reclamation, the crazy overpowered hunter killers, and uggggg the stalking thing. In lv9 games the ai will generally stack 3 waves before attacking, and in lv10 games it stacks 5 or more waves. I wish stalking would work the same on lv9 and lv10 as it does on lv8, because it gets silly pretty fast right now. Progress isn't all that relevant when the ai can pile up so many ships, making version 4 or 5 attacks at progress 10-20 as threatening as version 3 attacks at progress 50-100.

 As an example, my latest lv10 game ended when the ai attacked my homeworld with 3000 ships + 60 hybrids at the 60 minute mark while i had a progress of 12.

 Ohhhh, and hybrids really need a much more sane limit on their numbers in larger maps. They are really fun but are game breaking at lv9+ on 120 planet maps.

 As for the bonus ships, they arent too useful in lv9-10 games, so i'm not too qualified to discuss most of them, but i do wonder why the new shield bearers aren't always given to the players considering just how much better they are compared to almost every other mobile thing the player can get.

 Anyway, i'm pretty sure it's just a question of time before these things and others are ironed out, i suspect i'll upgrade and buy the new xp by the summer, just need better lv9+ balance.

[TechSY730]

...
As an example, my latest lv10 game ended when the ai attacked my homeworld with 3000 ships + 60 hybrids at the 60 minute mark while i had a progress of 12.

 Ohhhh, and hybrids really need a much more sane limit on their numbers in larger maps. They are really fun but are game breaking at lv9+ on 120 planet maps.
...
Anyway, i'm pretty sure it's just a question of time before these things and others are ironed out, i suspect i'll upgrade and buy the new xp by the summer, just need better lv9+ balance.

Your observation that difficulties >9 are not balanced is accurate; they are not supposed to be. Level 9 is the maximum "fair" difficulty, and even then it is pushing it. So in other words, at difficulty levels greater than 9, do not complain about fairness or balance; 9.3 and up are meant to be stupidly unfair, unbalanced, and unreasonable.
The devs should pay attention to balance issues at level 9 though, as that is the intended max "fair" difficulty. (Especially that as of the latest betas, the AI's free tech level bump has been moved from 8.3 to 9.3)

That said, your points about hybrid hive caps are right. Linear growth of the cap with galaxy size is too steep considering how powerful they are.

[Sunshine!]

*snip*

From the top down...

Interactions are less interesting in 3.0 because there are no ships that have x50 bonuses against others anymore.  It's more homogenized in general ship-to-ship bonuses because it's not against specific ships anymore, it's against armor types.  That's unavoidable, sadly.

I have heard some players are happy with TeleRaiders, I'm happy with Deflector Drones (long range, high damage, decent fire rate?  sign me up.  stick them in a blob with your bombers and they'll provide excellent covering fire while you make your way to your next target) and the Neinzul units (though not Commandos, but again, players have expressed that they like them.  I think commandos could definitely use a damage and HP boost to bring them in line with other Neinzul ships in terms of effectiveness though.  As is, I think Weasels are currently better for overall DPS and survivability than Commandos).  Impulse Emitters I have used, and they are terrible, and Acid Sprayers I haven't used but they look terrible.

Space tanks I've never used, and I agree the concept is bland, but other players (Suzera for one - not sure where she is these days) have been very vocal about maintaining the status quo on those because they're currently effective, and changing the concept could screw them up.

Chameleons, I wholeheartedly disagree.  The concept looks bland from the outside, but if you run some calculations and size up the general statistics, you get a different picture.  Chameleons are the only fighter-bomber in the game, which is a dramatically different concept than being "just a bomber".  They have 1.5x the cap-DPS of fighters, quite a large range, are fast enough, and are very survivable, and so are the absolute PERFECT ambush ships.  I've used them in ambushes to great effect plenty of times before.  Having problems with Sentinel frigates in AI waves?  Power down your chameleons around the wormhole, and when the rest of the AI fleet runs off gank the Sentinels.  Alternatively, you can do it against Blade Spawners.  They also make great units for providing covering fire to your fighter/bomber blob - that 7000 range goes a long way towards keeping nastiness away from your more vulnerable short-range units, and they can assist the bombers pretty darn well.  Chameleons are hands-down one of my all time favorite units, and I find myself returning to them again and again for pretty much any situation.  I would recommend anyone to give them a solid shot at proving themselves to you.

I can't comment on the Neinzul Viral units, never seen them.  The Neinzul waves are interesting, I think, because sure you're facing a lot of HP, firepower, and very fast units, but that entire wave is going to die on its own in 5 minutes max.  There's a clock the AI is facing on its attack for once, which certainly raises interesting tactical and strategic possiblities with defense in depth (abusing grav turrets and logistics stations can make for painless AI waves, for one).  As for the actual wave size, I can't comment all that well - it's perhaps a little excessive that there are 2x neinzul units coming in per wave as normal for other units, especially when they often have something like 1.5x-2x the HP and 1.5x-2x the damage (so overall 3x-4x the HP and damage of a "normal" wave), but again, the attrition across the entire wave is huge, meaning AOE weapons can actually cause a lot of problems for them if they get stuck on-planet for more than one or two minutes.  Someone should actually run the average HP/DPS difference between a Neinzul wave and normal wave.  Usually it doesn't take even a minute for units to get to your command station from any wormhole, so the attrition only matters if they're attacking onto another planet.  This results in pain if the wave gets sent to your homeworld for whatever reason.

I've only used Z Mirrors a handful of times, but they're still horribly ineffective.  They don't all die right off the bat though.  Superking, do you think you could figure out the average damage reflected as a percentage of the reflected units HP for 3.0, and compare it to 5.0 currently?  It could be that the damage/HP ratio of ships now is far lower than in 3.0, making the mirrors ineffective because they're still doing the same damage against vastly more HP.

I've tried to use bomber starships, but they're expensive, die way too fast, don't do enough damage for what they should be good against (forcefields), and I would agree are pretty bland to use.  I don't like them.  Not quite sure how I would change them though.

Light starships I never use, they never really fit in with my fleet composition.  Same with Flagships.  I think two things need to be addressed for fleet starships.  First, their speed - they're "fleet" starships, so they should fit in with a fleet, and should be able to keep up with the average fleet.  This means fighters and bombers.  Second, survivability.  When it comes to starships, these are the main "starships of the line" and should be the toughest starships to kill - not raid starships - though it's good to know there's an effective counter in Siege Starships.  So, fast-ish and tough, not necessarily huge piles of damage though since they have the munitions boost.

Completely agree with the Spire fleetships.  I would never want to see the AI with Blade Spawners, and seeing the AI with Gravity Drains just makes me want to cry.  Seriously, those things are my nightmare.  I've never used Armor Rotters or had them used against me, so can't comment.  Rams aren't so offensive until 15 of them show up in a schizo bomber wave and you rage-quit.  Tractor platforms have a really, really awkward armor type, which should probably be altered.  Heavy armor type will probably work fine for them.  Stealth Battleships are just oppressive when they show up, because you need to take fleet action against every single one of them since turrets can't shoot them, depending.  This is a problem.  And again, letting Siege Starships shoot Spire fleetships (and other large fleetships) will provide them with some huge utility that'll actually make them worthwhile, and may make fighting against Spire fleetships more palatable if you can bring in a fleet of Sieges to snipe all the Gravity Drains or whatnot from a decent distance.

The AI Eye + Spire guardpost combination in particular is problematic, since there are very few options and none of them are effective.  You have destroying the command station and then clearing under the guardpost with Raid starships (or something else immune to FF), bomber starships to not provoke the Eye (takes forever, die way too quickly), bomber fleet (takes forever, provokes AI eye).  It's really awkward.

Fortresses (except for SuperFortresses) I do not see as as much of a problem.  They can't move, and can't hit the entire planet anymore, so they CAN be avoided, which is a good step.  They may take a little while to kill, but that's just incentive for unlocking higher mark bombers/throwing some bomber starships into the mix.

Overall, the Spire Fleetships are my #1 issue with the game, since they seem to show up in all my games - I just can't get away from them without turning off LotS, and there are things in LotS I really like to play with (spirecraft!) so it's sad.

P.S.  Raise your hand if you're a fan of implosion artillery!  If you're having a problem with AI eyes or fortresses, drop a cap of mk1 Implosions on the planet and in 30 seconds they'll have their target down to the range where a cap of mk1 bombers can kill it in a couple shots.  The things are seriously awesome.

[TechSY730]

How often are people seeing spire shield guard post + AI eye?

Assuming a non turtle type AI:
An AI eye is supposed to be somewhat rare
A Spire shield guard post is supposed to be moderatly uncommon

Thus (if these two chances are independent, and I see no reason they shouldn't be), then Spire guar post + eye should be pretty rare.

In other words, only a very few planet with AI eyes should also have a spire guard post with it. If this is the case, then things are fine. I see no reason to explicitly add a restriction to defensive building spawning just because it is a pain to deal with it on the rare occasions it comes up.

If AI eye planets are frequently coming with Spire shield guard posts, then there could be a problem, as I don't think that rate would be intended.

Again, this is assuming a non-turtle type AI. You should expect crazy defenses from a turtle AI, though there currently seems to be a bug where turtle type AIs are getting an insane rate of AI eye spawning (EDIT, acknowledged and soon to be fixed by Keith. YAY!

[keith.lamothe]

On the siege starship shooting spire fleet ships... does it not already do that?  There's a bit in the code intended to make all spire fleet ships shootable by the siege (and other stuff that can't normally target fleet ships).  Of course, radar dampening impacts the SSB's case, that's a matter of getting close enough.

But in my tests I found a gang of 5 siege mkIs quite capable of taking out a mkI blade spawner in one salvo from maximum range (it might have had a little bit of hp left, I forget).

[Sunshine!]

When was that change added?  I don't think I've played 5.001 or later, but I can't recall ever having run into that happening, and sieges tend to be the first starships I build.  If it works for you, I'll take it that it works and I'll stop spamming that thought all over the place XD

[keith.lamothe]

Maybe it's a recent thing, I don't actually know

But if you see it not working on the most recent, let me know.  Anyway, it should be able to shoot those things.

[Sir t]

It strikes me that a simple chance to the siege would make it worthwhile

(a) make it immune to radar damping.
(b) Remove its ability to shoot structures.
(c) add the ability to shoot all other targets

Congratulations you have a wonderful little defensive starship that can be a threat against stealth battleships and other high value targets, without popping guardposts with no retaliation. The Spire fleetships do seem to need a bit of a nerf though. Anything that can cause me to immediately quit the game when I see them on an enemy planet (blade spawners) is ott.

Zenith shredders do need a unit to kill them more as well I would guess. The one game I have won aside form the spire campagn I was totally stalled as a raid engine on the core world was spawning 40 Zenith IV shredders as pard of the wave and I could not kill them as they were spawning faster them I could damage them with my 500+ fleet. So I wound up triggering the wave, seeing them spawn in. run out of the system and throwning in a nuke and then charging the AI raid outpost before it could trigger again. Anything that requires me to eat over 100 aip (there was a spire archive in the system I nuked) to avoid dealing with is a little ott. They need some unit that will damage a load of them at once to deal with, I suppose.

[keith.lamothe]

On the zenith shredders, did you try baiting them into a cluster of turrets, preferably including grav turrets?

[Sir t]

I wound up tearing them up with teleport raiders that could skip ahead of them and keep firing on them as the shredders charged the raiders. I did try and bait them into my newly conqured world with turrets but they would not pass the wormhole. The problem was that I had a limited time to kill them off before the next wave would trigger, and it took too long, to so that ANd Kill the rest of the wave AND charge the rest of my fleet into the AI homeworld to kill the raid guardpost. Using a nuke was just faster I suppose.

[keith.lamothe]

but they would not pass the wormhole

Tricksy smart shredders   You needed that giant vacuum cleaner from Spaceballs on the other side.