Author Topic: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts  (Read 11104 times)

Offline Toranth

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2015, 08:07:44 pm »
Quote
The big reason for going to per-planet turrets was to eliminate the one big chokepoint.

And guess what... that failed. It's still the best defense strategy. The AI still has to be strong enough to beat that strong point... and will always be until all defenses "ressources" are limited by planets and not per galaxy. "Thankfully" some of the per-galaxy capped defenses are grossly overpowered - enabling multiple worlds to be protected. But, let's face it... there is absolutely no way that a chokepoint will ever become the worst strategy, ever. That's kind of the definition of a chokepoint.

If you had said that the chokepoint's power is comparatively "lower" compared to "regular planet" defenses before that change, I'd agree... yet the problem would also have been solved by reducing the quantity & power of per-galaxy defenses, or having the AI spread it's attacks more often. Or having the AI multiply its attacks when fighting a single choke point (that has been done if I remember well). So basically it never was "the solution" to accomplish that goal in the first place... just "one" amongst many possibilities.
A chokepoint will always be no worse than distributed defenses.  Unless you do crazy, "Force the player to behave MY WAY! RAR!" penalties/AI bonuses.  Consider, for a moment:  The AI, as you suggested, currently gets a wave size bonus multiplier based on how many human systems can receive waves.  At 1 system or less, it gets about a 50% bonus, and 7 or so and higher it gets a small penalty (10%? 20%?  Something like that).  But even under those circumstances, a single chokepoint is still better.  2 systems with 50% of your defenses each is worse versus the AI at 100% strength than 1 system receiving 200% strength AI waves.  Actually, since unit count is a super-linear advantage, it's actually even better than just that.  And if you do put in a crazy rule, like "the AI gets 100 times the strength against chokepoints!" you're basically saying "Players aren't allowed to play that way" - and that's not fun.

Spreading attacks out would have been OK, but only if it would have happened 100% of the time.  If the AI was ever allowed to concentrate its forces, one of your partially defended planets would have instantly lost.  Exowaves and CPAs come to mind.  So, even then, you would have needed a single chokepoint.

There was talk of a small number of "Turret Enhancers" or "Extra turret controllers" to allow a small number of systems to get better defenses - but it resolved to either chokepoints (if the number was too low) or per-planet caps, if the number was high.

Back in the per-galaxy cap days, capturing Fac IVs or Fabricators was mostly throw-away, because the first Exowave or CPA to come along would destroy it.  Unless it was behind your chokepoint.

There were many ideas that people came up with back when this change was being debated.  They generally fell into still needing a chokepoint, because of Exowaves or CPAs, or being complicated but no better than what we have now.
The change that was made was the simplest, yet most comprehensive, one that was debated.  We'd already had the experience of per-planet turrets introduced when the Core Turrets were introduced, and many player took a liking to it.  I used to be a Champion of the Chokepoint, until I had the opportunity to play to win at high difficulties WITHOUT using a chokepoint.  That right there was enough to make me change my mind.

However, I try to find what was lost / gained, I find the following:
- simplified beachhead made SF and threat mostly irrelevant.
- higher defence on all planets made it so threat delays more their attacks compared to before
- higher defense on chokepoint means the AI has to be made EVEN larger than before.
- higher micro-management.
I disagree that SF and Threat are irrelevant.  Threat won't enter a planet unless it has the strength to defeat any human units present - and that includes beachhead turrets on AI worlds.  Once they do get strong enough, and they will, your beachhead goes bye-bye.  Then usually an occupied world or two, if the Threat is that strong.  CPAs do an excellent job of cleaning the beaches in most games I play. 
Exowaves are still nasty, and easily get tough enough to break through my fully defended systems.  So I now need to do a defense in depth.  I expect the Exowave or CPA to destroy my first system.  That's why I also have lots of turrets in my second system.  Sometimes, that system will get destroyed, too.  Even once I've fought off an attack like that, it is still necessary to re-capture and rebuild those systems.  If I can't do it before the next Exo or CPA, then I'm doomed.
Threat in general got a lot smarter over the past few versions.  It can't be baited, it doesn't sit on wormholes, it doesn't scatter - instead it actively gathers, hides, and waits for a weakness.  Even though it hasn't gotten stronger, it has gotten more dangerous - independent of the turret changes.


None of that is particularly fun to me past seeing hybrids suiciding on beachheads during one hour or two.
Ok, yeah, Hybrids are pretty doomed these days.  They aren't smart enough to protect themselves, and will suicide against beachheads or other turrets.  They need some serious TLC.  I would be thrilled if the next expansion was nothing but Hybrids (and Astro Trains).


Then again, matter of taste ? And the AI is now getting ludicrous amount of ships at higher level which matter little because the efficiency of defending is so high. Which again, forced the game design to put "low" amount of scrap for the recycling and created a bunch of other issues (lag, carriers quantity, high number of starship, problem with caps of "parasited" units...). Would the other solutions have those effects ? Probably would have had other side effects, yeah. Still I think that a better solution than this was just waiting to be found.

About the rest of your post...  :( I'm sorry, but there is no link in that change and the consequences you are speaking of.
- Energy management could have been tweaked to matter in other ways.
- Game difficulty is a direct consequence of giving more spawns / mechanics to the AI. The amount of defense that the player's got is irrelevant - if you give the AI 5 times what the player can handle, he'll lose, whether the player has 10 or 100 turrets.
- as said above, relative difficulty of defending "standard" worlds compared to "chokepoint" worlds could have been solved in different ways.
Energy could have been handled a different way than making the player spend it on turrets.
Resource income could have been handled a different way than salvage.
Increasing the risk of failed attacks could have been handled a different way than reprisals.
Increasing the AI strength vs chokepoints could have been handled in a different way.
But I don't know of any other way to have made playing on a Honeycomb or Lattice map viable.
But I don't know of any other way to have made protecting captured uniques viable on all map types.
So, while there were other things that could have been done, there was nothing a simple that hit almost all the points necessary. 

So... I do understand why it was chosen - and why it pleases some, but I'd have liked a solution based on "'let's rebalance stuff" instead of "MOAR STUFF".
It would be nice if we could get another long series of rebalancings.  Not just defenses, but AI strength, costs, etc.  Last time we went through this, there were many ideas suggested that just couldn't be worked out. 
If you have any ideas, I know I would like to discuss them.  Something to tone down the general power curve that has come to both the human and the AI over the past few years could be very interesting.

Offline Traveller

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2015, 08:22:53 pm »
Whoa there, hold up.  Wave size gets a bonus based on how few attack vectors there are?  Where can I find details on that?  I don't remember hearing about that anywhere.

(And is that player planets that can be attacked, or wormholes that can be attacked through?)

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2015, 08:52:20 pm »
Whoa there, hold up.  Wave size gets a bonus based on how few attack vectors there are?  Where can I find details on that?  I don't remember hearing about that anywhere.

(And is that player planets that can be attacked, or wormholes that can be attacked through?)

Its number of wormholes that the target planet can be attacked through.  If you have a chokepoint on one side (taking 1 hostile wormhole) and a spread on the otherside (each planet takeing 3), the chokepoint taking 1 will gt 50% more units than any of the planets on the other side.

I think that's how it works.  It's been a long time since I read those patch notes.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2015, 02:15:15 am »
@Toranth
Errr...
Quote
(...)you're basically saying "Players aren't allowed to play that way" - and that's not fun.
I know about the spreading mechanic, even if I didn't get details. But basically that's exactly what the game did. Before I did spread turrents, I had groups of 10 turrets on 5-6 planets and a blob in a single place, as I mostly played lattice.

But... what you're stating is exactly what happened. You're now not allowed anymore to have "low" defense worlds, the game now expects you to build 5 50-strong caps of turrets on every planet. I don't know why you're argumenting in my favor here.


Quote
If the AI was ever allowed to concentrate its forces, one of your partially defended planets would have instantly lost.  Exowaves and CPAs come to mind.  So, even then, you would have needed a single chokepoint.

It's still the case. 2 problems here. First the AI think it can win when it can't. Then defense efficiency is way too high and the cap per planet hurt a lot in that regard. Having the possibility to place MOAR turrets increases exponentially the effectiveness of "fixed" defenses like mines, grav turrets and so on.

I remember my first AI war games where the AI waves went for different objectives. Now that I learnt efficient turret placement they rush for the command station and fail to reach it every time. The AI logic might as well be replaced by "rush the command station".



About Fac4 or fabricator, what solved that particular problem was hacking. The per turret cap spectacularly fails in that regard if taken alone.


About threat... The AI is still not smart enough to guess when it really has a chance to win a battle there. As I stated above, the efficiency of defending a planet is way too high with the comparatively higher turret cap and it's rather easy to trick the AI SF & threat to suicide themselves like the the hybrids do. It's also the same with planet defenses actually. The problem is "somewhat" alleviated at higher diff lvl (9+) but that effect is very noticable at 8 and below. Recent improvement did not change much on that regard. I'd be in favor of implementing a mechanic to counter beachheads (exponential "multiplicative" response to having units stationned in enemy planets come to mind). Also even with the last versions I had little difficulty finding where it was.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 05:33:36 am by kasnavada »

Offline superking

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2015, 03:23:03 am »
I think it worked better when turret cap was global rather than per planet.

Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2015, 03:38:24 am »
I think it worked better when turret cap was global rather than per planet.

Maybe there should be an option to switch between per planet and universal? This game is all for options after all. (that, and I most certainly don't wanna have to micro turrets any more than already...)
Just that guy who hides behind walls of death hoping that they stay up.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2015, 05:52:34 am »
I don't think it can be an option. There are too many balancing changes required to make one or the other work. Also, if you do want a self-challenge, nothing prevents you from not placing more than 100 turrets galaxy wide.

Offline Imago

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2015, 11:51:27 am »
I love per-planet turrets.

I also certainly see the attraction of replacing them with guard posts. I can't think of a situation where I'd want to spread my turrets out and it would save me a lot of shift + alt clicking time. On the other hand, the asymmetry between human turrets and AI guard posts is kind of nice.

Replacing all defenses with modular fortresses might also be cool.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:04:54 pm by Imago »

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2015, 12:44:26 pm »
Replacing all defenses with modular fortresses might also be cool.
Optional Game Setting idea: Defense Rings for human command stations. No placement necessary, just build queues. :D

Offline Traveller

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2015, 02:41:44 pm »
The AI has to go for command stations (or irreplacables) because everything else is TOO replaceable.  Surgical strikes against turrets are pointless because the player can put them back up in 1-2 minutes for almost negligible metal cost, they often generate more scrap than they cost.

The only limiting factor for building full caps of turrets everywhere right now is energy cost, because they're ultimately way cheaper in metal compared to what they kill.  If energy cost went up even higher, then turrets would become REALLY limited... If they cost more, and took longer to build, then it would make surgical strikes practical for the AI, and that sounds like a good idea.  Makes more strategies available.  Besides, I'm not convinced that the player should be allowed to build so many turrets after a wave has been announced and before it arrives.  Also all this would make building a beachhead more challenging, it's super trivial right now.  Too trivial.

Right now turrets are a much more efficient source of firepower than fortresses or minifortresses, what if it was the other way around, mostly by making turrets more expensive?  (or at least more even, because healing is soooooo nice)  I see a lot of hate for fortresses here and I'm starting to agree, they're just not worth it, though nothing is ever going to keep me from unlocking minifortresses every game.  (Maybe that's a sign that I really do like low-planet-cap, relatively higher power defenses.)  If turrets keep their per-planet cap, making fortresses a good strategic choice seems nice.

I'd really like it if turrets weren't such sacrificial ablative stuff.  Right now it seems like you use turrets to protect your investment in your fleet.  What if, instead, you wanted to use your fleet to protect your investment in your turrets? 

So yeah.  Raise the turret energy cost, and they become de facto galaxy capped, which encourages choke points and creative hacking like advanced factory hacks.  Raise the turret metal cost and build time, and you give the AI more strategies to use.

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2015, 04:16:10 pm »
Encouraging chokes was exactly what per-planet turrets were supposed to avoid doing.

Anyway, mini-fortresses are basically objectively terrible -- a cap of them only barely beats an unsupported cap of mark 1 fighters, and if you double the number of ships on both sides, they straight-up lose.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2015, 04:46:51 pm »
I can't think of a situation where I'd want to spread my turrets out

Me neither, yet it might be an idea to explore to make defenses more fun.

Quote
Right now turrets are a much more efficient source of firepower than fortresses or minifortresses

If placed right fortress might have somewhat of a higher K cost, but they should not die ever so the build cost is irrelevant. Same cannot be told for most turrets, their lower range and inability to move will get most of them killed a few or a dozen times times over a single game. Still, now that you can have 5-8 caps of turrets per planet, their firepower would need a boost.

About mini-fortresses, I personnaly unlock them because of their repair ability, cheapness and weakness. Firepower is not even a consideration, I mean 1K for that firepower alone could be enough, but mass repairs on top of it ?

« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 04:54:58 pm by kasnavada »

Offline Traveller

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2015, 05:30:53 pm »
Yeah, mass repairs is what mini-fortresses are all about.  Park one mini-fortress just outside your command station, where your relay points to, and park the other one on top of a wormhole that you're fond of attacking or routing through.  They're cheap to put on a beachhead to give you ion-proof repairs.  The AI doesn't prioritize them either, so fighting with your fleet ball around one sure doesn't hurt.  Per-planet cap means you don't have to juggle medic ships or worry about losing them all, and your engineers can do their primary job of making your turrets rebuild faster.

1k knowledge for that feels a lot better than spending knowledge or an ARS pick on a dedicated repair ship, plus it's guaranteed.  And so what if it can barely take out a cap of fighters (I need to re-check the game, the wiki sure looks like it beats the hell out of them)...if you're fighting with your fleet around one, it's still more than nothing, and its range + radar dampening can really whittle away at a slow stream of enemy ships if it somehow does wind up alone.  Um...it also gives scout coverage to your beachhead, if for some weird reason you don't already have it.

Yeah, basically 1k knowledge to never, ever worry about having damaged ships when in friendly territory?  Hell yes.


As for normal fortresses, I have to disagree with kasnavada.  If a planet gets overrun, your fortress will absolutely die, and then you get to wait another really, really long time to rebuild it.  It might help a little bit if you need to make a choke point just a little bit beefier, but you can't even move them...so you wind up putting fortresses on a planet that will soon fall back behind your front lines, or putting them next to an AI homeworld for that final push and stalling your attack for a long time in the process, or putting them all on your own homeworld where they might never even come into play so you wasted your K and a full capacity of metal.

Now, if fortresses gave some of the bonuses of military command stations...boost attack or armor a smidgen, maybe 10% per mark...that would make them worth thinking about.  Fortress Mk.III would feel OP, but for that cost it sure better be!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 05:38:34 pm by Traveller »

Offline Toranth

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2015, 06:27:29 pm »
@Toranth
Errr...
Quote
(...)you're basically saying "Players aren't allowed to play that way" - and that's not fun.
I know about the spreading mechanic, even if I didn't get details. But basically that's exactly what the game did. Before I did spread turrents, I had groups of 10 turrets on 5-6 planets and a blob in a single place, as I mostly played lattice.

But... what you're stating is exactly what happened. You're now not allowed anymore to have "low" defense worlds, the game now expects you to build 5 50-strong caps of turrets on every planet. I don't know why you're argumenting in my favor here.
You were never allowed to have lightly defended worlds before - CPAs, Exowaves, or even Counterattack posts or Warp Guardians sending an unexpected wave to one of the 10 turret systems would have been doom.  But now, you can defend that system.  Or not, if you want to save the Metal and Energy you'd otherwise use.
The point that paragraph was trying to make was that when you were forced to scatter your defenses, you became weaker everywhere, but the AI would still attack at full strength.


Quote
If the AI was ever allowed to concentrate its forces, one of your partially defended planets would have instantly lost.  Exowaves and CPAs come to mind.  So, even then, you would have needed a single chokepoint.

It's still the case. 2 problems here. First the AI think it can win when it can't. Then defense efficiency is way too high and the cap per planet hurt a lot in that regard. Having the possibility to place MOAR turrets increases exponentially the effectiveness of "fixed" defenses like mines, grav turrets and so on.

I remember my first AI war games where the AI waves went for different objectives. Now that I learnt efficient turret placement they rush for the command station and fail to reach it every time. The AI logic might as well be replaced by "rush the command station".
Normal waves don't normally have any special targeting... Are you thinking of Exowaves?  Those still do have the special targets, and will beeline to your uniques to kill them. 
Also, I'm surprised if you are regularly seeing Threat choose to attack your systems and lose.  I can't remember the last time a Threadfleet attack didn't win easily in any system where I couldn't directly interfere.  The AI does a pretty good job of calculating the strength you have available in or near the target system, and gives itself a hefty overage just in case on top of that.

An individual planet's maximum defensive strength did not go up with the per-planet cap change.  Your chokepoint was always going to be as strong, or stronger, than any current world.  By making it possible to have multiple "chokepoint-equivalent" systems, players are allowed to spread out, and allow more connections to AI space.  Because now, there is no large inherent advantage in hiding everything behind a single chokepoint.


About Fac4 or fabricator, what solved that particular problem was hacking. The per turret cap spectacularly fails in that regard if taken alone.
I love hacking, but hacking both Advanced producers plus even half the Fabricators is impractical - It'll normally run about 650 HaP to get both Mk IVs plus a mere 5 Fabricators.  That doesn't include hacking ARSs, or K-raiding, or design download/corruption, or sabotage, or the SuperTerminal, or... anything else, really.  HaP is always tight, if you are taking advantage of it.  Saying it should have been the way to cover for the fact that it was impossible to protect your uniques seems like solving the wrong problem.  I like being able to do some much more, different, stuff with Hacking that I would hate if I had to spend it all on just acquiring a few 'capturable' uniques.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2015, 06:37:38 pm »
Whoa there, hold up.  Wave size gets a bonus based on how few attack vectors there are?  Where can I find details on that?  I don't remember hearing about that anywhere.

(And is that player planets that can be attacked, or wormholes that can be attacked through?)
It's total number of human systems that can receive waves.  The number of wormholes doesn't count, unfortunately.

Here's the relevant portion of the 5.036 release notes:
Quote from: 5.036
On Diff 7+ the randomization of wave intervals (which feeds directly into step 5 of the wave size formula) has been changed to consider the number of planets that the AI can send waves against (and thus the probable defensive power of those worlds, i.e. chokepoints, and the viability or lack thereof of smaller waves): ## If there are 6+ wave-targetable planets it uses the normal (pre-5.036) formula of adding a random number from (AIDifficulty*-60) to (AIDifficulty*120).
## If there are 5 wave-targetable planets the random is from (AIDifficulty*-30) to (AIDifficulty*120).
## If there are 4 the random is from 0 to (AIDifficulty*120).
## If 3, from (AIDifficulty*30) to (AIDifficulty*120).
## If 2, from (AIDifficulty*60) to (AIDifficulty*120).
## If 1, from (AIDifficulty*90) to (AIDifficulty*150) (making it actually able to hit single-chokepoints harder than it used to).
## The upshot is that it makes the AI a little "smarter" about figuring out that it may as well not bother sending small waves against concentrated defenses and should just save up for stronger attack forces. Accordingly, since the AI on <7 is intentionally a bit dumb it doesn't get this new rule at all.

## Thanks to many players (including zoutzakje, Diazo, Wanderer, rabican, Orelius, chemical_art, and probably others I can't remember right now) for the past few months of 9+ playtesting and related suggestions. No good deed goes unpunished.

Sorry, it only goes up to 25% bigger waves - but the average wave size jumps a massive 100% with just one entrance planet.

 

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