Arcen Games

General Category => AI War Classic => : Teal_Blue March 16, 2016, 03:42:07 PM

: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Teal_Blue March 16, 2016, 03:42:07 PM
I know you have a lot going on, 3D Survival, then the Dinosaur game, then SBR rework. All of which is fine. But just for my own two cents, the expansions for AI War have always breathed interesting life and difference into that game. I still lose a lot, so my strategies aren't perfected. But everytime Arcen gets together to do a new expansion it comes with some interesting differences and changes, additions, sometimes new ships, sometimes new approach, sometimes new mechanics to try out here and there.
And they always seem to sell well. I love that game.
So I wanted to ask, even though i know there is alot on your plate already, when are you going to do a new expansion for AI War?

What about playing as just one of the smaller factions, and not the human race at all? Sort of a Misery mode for the new expansion because it reduces the resources of the player even further than they are in a 'normal' game. :)

What about a competing 'AI faction' that attacks the main AI host? But not religiously? So while they look like a friend? Maybe, sorta. We are never quite sure when the might just decide to turn on us? It might make things interesting. :)

What if 'sectors' of the galaxy map were like spaces on a chess board? that lead to successes, or failures, but have to be won, or countered in order to advance the chances for a total win overall? In this way, the numbers in a given area, vastly outnumbered or not, have less significance than the overall 'pin these forces in this area to neutralize them, destroy these forces in this other area, so that they cannot defend the attack that comes from this third area? And is less number centric ( ai has more ships than me) and more 'role specific' (like the AI bishop can't move there, because they are blocked in by my rook forces in that adjacent galaxy and that other adjacent galaxy)?  :)

Anyway, aside from all my amateur ideas for things it could be, it would certainly be nice to see a new expansion that i am sure more people than just me would agree would not only help Arcen, but the players would love to see.

-Teal

: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: x4000 March 16, 2016, 04:01:45 PM
*cough*  ;)

With AI War, there's kind of a "worst kept secret at Arcen" that is mildly in progress, but which should bear fruit late this year I expect.  That's in Keith's pipeline for after SBR, and the timing will be something we see about in terms of what is realistic, etc.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Kahuna March 16, 2016, 08:32:20 PM
All I saw when I read that reply:
[...] AI War [...] secret [...] in progress [...] bear fruit late this year [...] is realistic [...]
;D
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: x4000 March 16, 2016, 08:49:30 PM
 ;D
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Draco18s March 16, 2016, 09:51:43 PM
Its all I saw too.

But hnnng, how I ache for a good, moddable version of AI War.  Being able to add, remove, or modify units to play with various balances.  Looks like the work in Starward Rogue might allow for that level of fiddling.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: keith.lamothe March 17, 2016, 10:06:34 PM
Looks like the work in Starward Rogue might allow for that level of fiddling.
How remarkably prescient.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan March 18, 2016, 04:50:19 PM
Looks like the work in Starward Rogue might allow for that level of fiddling.
How remarkably prescient.

So, I have a list of UI rough edges from when I was first learning the game; missing hover text, unit placement clumsiness, overlapping widgets, filter issues on the Galaxy map, etc.  Is there value in reporting these, or is the game's UI likely to be so drastically reworked that they won't be relevant?
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: x4000 March 18, 2016, 05:25:12 PM
The UI is one of those things that's being recreated from absolute scratch.  And by recreated I actually mean reimagined in a lot of ways.  There will be a lengthy period where we ideally get lots of feedback from players on how they feel about various aspects of the new UI, and I suppose that hearing about design issues with the existing UI has value for planning purposes.  In terms of outright bugs with the current UI there's definitely no point, because those would not carry over to the new system unless we for some reason happened to code the same bug two different times.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: tombik March 19, 2016, 01:32:47 AM
I got the new AI war will not be using steam multiplayer services, but what about mods? Even the existence of Steam Workshop is a selling point for some.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan March 19, 2016, 06:47:22 AM
The UI is one of those things that's being recreated from absolute scratch.  And by recreated I actually mean reimagined in a lot of ways.  There will be a lengthy period where we ideally get lots of feedback from players on how they feel about various aspects of the new UI, and I suppose that hearing about design issues with the existing UI has value for planning purposes.  In terms of outright bugs with the current UI there's definitely no point, because those would not carry over to the new system unless we for some reason happened to code the same bug two different times.

A lot of my notes were on little ways the UI could let the player do what they want more easily.  For example:


Constructing side-by-side clumps of units is bothersome because you can't see the collision circles of other units.  I'd propose two changes:  First, when in unit placement mode, the collision circles of units near the pointer should become visible.  Second, construction placement could be improved by a "slide flush" mechanism; instead of turning the placement image red to indicate "can't place here", the image should not be movable into an invalid location at all; it should always be displayed in the nearest valid position to the pointer (which is where the unit will go if the user clicks).


Hovering the cursor over a unit should activate the display of its flight path, range circle, and current target.


When you hold the ALT key on the planets screen, the cursor should be annotated with the distance from it to the nearest selected unit.


I would like to be able to see the exact beginning and end of a cross-planet movement order at the time I make it.



Plenty more where those came from, both on the UI and on more gameplay-related stuff, mainly focused on things that seemed unnecessarily complex (six different types of warp gates?) or obscure (line placement, customized galaxy layouts) as I was learning the game.

Overall, I am enjoying the game, but it does have kind of a patchwork feel to it, like it was added on to a chunk at a time, without always having had the time to fully integrate the new concepts into the foundation.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Aklyon March 19, 2016, 03:28:27 PM
It certainly can sound like a patchwork if you read through the book and some amount of patch notes the wiki has :)
One that can beat you in a game of space war, though.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan March 19, 2016, 05:55:07 PM
It certainly can sound like a patchwork if you read through the book and some amount of patch notes the wiki has :)

Exactly so; the game has changed so much, so many times that parts of it just don't quite fit properly anymore.  Like, say, Cleanup Drones.  When I started playing, I read their description, which said that they prevent enemy rebuilders from rebuilding remains.  That sounded important, so I made sure to include them in all of my strike forces.  And then became rather puzzled when I never encountered an AI rebuilder.

One that can beat you in a game of space war, though.

Well....I hate to poke a sacred cow here, but it seems to me that most of the challenge of this game is built into the way the AIP system is set up.  Most strategic gains on the player's part increase AIP, which increases the AI's effective production rate.  So the game's challenge continues to grow as the player gets closer to victory. 

I think that this is a really innovative way to deal with the usual problem in strategic conquest games, which is that once one player has a sufficient resource advantage over the other, the outcome is usually inevitable, but may take a long and relatively unexciting time to play out.

However, this difference in resource treatment means that I can't really give full credit to AI War's AI.  At 7/7 (which is supposed to be "full smarts", I think), I'm inflicting 7-1 casualties on it (I assume a really good player would do far better than that), so the challenge of the game is mainly coming from the AI having a massive resource and starting position advantage, and not from it playing really intelligently.  If I'm to give the credit to the AI instead of the underlying resource rules, it needs to beat me with a better casualty ratio.

IMHO, the AI's biggest weakness is that its movements are too predictable; most of its attacks fly on the direct shortest-path line between the AI homeworlds and my home station.  If it mixed up its movements a bit more, especially at the tactical (in-system) level, I'd have to spread my defenses out more, which would let it win with fewer forces.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Teal_Blue March 20, 2016, 01:15:37 AM
I seem to have uncovered a secret, oops. Sorry. Although it is really, really great to hear!!  :)
I'm looking forward to it when you are ready to start using the screw drivers and wrenches in earnest and let us have a look. :)

Thanks for the info! 

-Teal

: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Cyborg March 20, 2016, 03:16:44 AM
So, is this the sign up thread now?

I'm an AI war veteran, of course I will volunteer.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: x4000 March 20, 2016, 03:17:11 AM
Quick notes:

1. Yes, modding is something that would be a key thing we'd want to make possible, same as we did with Starward Rogue.

2. Steam Workshop does not seem grand to me.

3. In terms of the AI having massively more ships than you... well, yeah, that's part of the simulation.  This isn't meant to be a human stand-in AI, and I never claimed it was.  It's meant to set up interesting situations, and it's meant to create some unpredictability via things like larger flocks and whatnot acting various ways.  Overall I think it beats most other games hands down in that department -- aka, creating unpredictable and interesting situations you have to deal with.  Not at a micro tactics level, but this was never a game about micro tactics (also processors can only handle so much).
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Cyborg March 20, 2016, 03:18:16 AM
2. Steam Workshop does not seem grand to me.

If we could get you the resources to figure out the system, would that make it better?
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan March 20, 2016, 04:17:42 AM
3. In terms of the AI having massively more ships than you... well, yeah, that's part of the simulation.  This isn't meant to be a human stand-in AI, and I never claimed it was.  It's meant to set up interesting situations, and it's meant to create some unpredictability via things like larger flocks and whatnot acting various ways.  Overall I think it beats most other games hands down in that department -- aka, creating unpredictable and interesting situations you have to deal with.  Not at a micro tactics level, but this was never a game about micro tactics (also processors can only handle so much).

Absolutely; as I said, I'm enjoying the game overall. But I also agree that it could use some rework to try to bring things back together and smooth out rough spots.  So I'm happy to join any design suggestion group also.  I'm a relative AI War newbie, but I assume that you're not just hoping to sell it to the old salts.  I'm also a C++ software engineer with an AI and simulation background, so I should be able to write a good bug report.  :-)
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: doctorfrog March 21, 2016, 11:50:58 PM
The possibility of new AI War is the best gaming rumor-news-planning thing I've heard all year. I'm equal parts excited and filled with a delicious anxiety.

My two cents on Steam Workshop is I ain't against it, as long as I can obtain and install the same mods without Steam somehow. I don't expect Arcen to provide the space for them, per se, just that I don't want to rely on Steam for anything. This is one guy, mind you, and I realize that the majority of gamers would wallpaper their homes in Steam if it were possible.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin March 22, 2016, 08:26:08 AM
(...) as long as I can obtain and install the same mods (...)
Speaking of that... Arcen chose to not support player modding to "keep the game experience in one piece". While it was a shame this great game didn't have a modding support, it made perfect sense to prevent the game from "shattering" while Arcen was pouring content in it at a sustained rate over several years.

But now it's announced to have modding support (*soon*), and I wonder: how?

I mean, yeah, XML and stuff, as Arcen does. That's how players make mods. But how will players get mods? I'm not very invested in the Starward's modding community. How does it do?

More specifically on AIW2, will they be shared on this forum? Only here? Will there be "official" mods integrated as regular on/off minor factions, downloaded with the game's updates? I'm sure things will settle down on the go. I trust this community to do it right. But is there an Arcen's stance on this topic of mod sharing?
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Mánagarmr March 22, 2016, 08:42:14 AM
Mods in general, that are not distributed by Steam workshop, are put on something like ModDB or NexusMods.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Aklyon March 22, 2016, 05:09:01 PM
Mods in general, that are not distributed by Steam workshop, are put on something like ModDB or NexusMods.
Or in Rimworld or Starsector's case, on a forum.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin March 22, 2016, 07:56:05 PM
Mods in general, that are not distributed by Steam workshop, are put on something like ModDB or NexusMods.
Or in Rimworld or Starsector's case, on a forum.
Sure. I meant... What's the Arcen's stance toward mod distribution? Will there be some added in the core game? Or will community will be in charge of it (forum, ModDB and the like)?

Also, that answered "how will modders publish mods", not "how players get mods", which, in our case, is either automatically, from within the game (For example, by automatic updades as AIW1 has for its own expansions, or an integrated list a bit like Ubuntu's "software center") or by hand, by tracking mods wherever they have been uploaded and unzipping them in the appropriate place.

Needless to say, I would love an integrated, centralized solution. Maybe not like the "software center", which may seems overkill (although, why not?), but at least something "official".

I ask that, but I'm not really worried. I know we're a great community ( 8) ) and at worst, it will be "centralized" on the forum, with clear [TAGS] and [TheLike].
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: TechSY730 March 22, 2016, 08:18:31 PM
If there is a "AI War II" type release (which has NOT been confirmed,or at least not in this thread), I hope the current diversity of ships can be maintained.

Something I love about AI War is that despite its crazy amount of ships, almost all of them "feel" unique, and serve a particular role.
Sure, lots of that feeling gets lost once you start getting a "deathball" rolling, but the fact it this uniqueness is there at all is remarkable.

This is something I hope isn't lost whenever the...whatever Chris and Kieth have planned for AI War comes to fruition.
It is a complicated part of the game, yes, but one that really helps set AI War apart.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Misery March 25, 2016, 04:45:49 AM
*cough*  ;)

With AI War, there's kind of a "worst kept secret at Arcen" that is mildly in progress, but which should bear fruit late this year I expect.  That's in Keith's pipeline for after SBR, and the timing will be something we see about in terms of what is realistic, etc.

I'm really surprised you havent info-dumped that particular "secret" yet.  You know you want to though...

I'm pretty sure I already know what it is, I think you mentioned it in emails awhile back.  I think.  I could be remembering wrong.  Not that I'll say anything about it if I've got it right though, I only "accidentally" give spoilers for Starward.  But my memory is bad here so maybe I've got it wrong.  But still, "worst kept secret", yeah...

On the note of an expansion as mentioned in the topic title, I always say, you cant go wrong with that for this game.  Definitely one of those "never too much content" games.  Kinda like Dwarf Fortress or something.  The game as a whole just seems to never really get old for alot of it's fans.

Though regardless of all of that, it seems SBR is still the "big one" right now.  I'm curious, do you intend on doing like a progress update post about that at some point?  I remember some stuff that was mentioned about it... but I dont think anything has been much explained here on the forums in quite some time.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan March 28, 2016, 03:53:23 PM
On the note of an expansion as mentioned in the topic title, I always say, you cant go wrong with that for this game.  Definitely one of those "never too much content" games.  Kinda like Dwarf Fortress or something.  The game as a whole just seems to never really get old for alot of it's fans.

With that said, I'd like to add the caveat that I think the game does have an accessibility/usability issue for new players.  Part of that is UI-related, and could hopefully be addressed in a rework short of a total rewrite.  Having six different types of warp gates and ten different hacking subunits is an example of an area that seems overly complex.  Yet another (and perhaps the largest) source of complexity is the number and semi-arbitrary nature of hull types and attack multipliers (Needler turrets are good against big things, but Needler guns on your Shadow ship are good against small things?).  It would be much easier to learn if the multipliers were ammo vs. hull, and it would make more sense if the size-based hulls weren't used (I can understand how a hull material can be more or less vulnerable to Lasers vs. Shells vs. Missiles, etc., but you need to stretch logic to explain a weapon that does 5x damage only to medium-sized targets.)  I'm guessing that the hull types are probably too fundamental to change in anything short of a total rewrite, though.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Mánagarmr March 29, 2016, 05:41:00 AM
Kinda like Dwarf Fortress or something.  The game as a whole just seems to never really get old for alot of it's fans.
*looks at his 60 hours played last week*

Uhm...I have no idea what you are talking about.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Kahuna March 29, 2016, 07:32:33 PM
[pokefun]
I've heard people say numerous times that the UI, the hacking and the hull systems are way too complex. I wonder how do they manage grocery shopping without overloading their working memory. I mean there is no six nor ten options to choose from but literally hundreds and hundreds. Hundreds of different cookies to the left, hundreds of different beers to the right, hundreds of different dairy products in front. *Dominos.. St Peter's Cream Stout.. Cheddar.. drools*. Hundreds of temptations pulling you in every possible direction. *head explodes*

Well, as we grow up (get familiar with AI War) we develop our own eating habits (strategies and play styles). You try different foods and products and you learn which ones you like and then you buy those (which turrets/ships are good at what and which play styles you find to be fun and effective) most of the time so you no longer have to push your working memory to it's limits every time you go grocery shopping (learning). You read the nutritional facts (tool tips) to know which foods (turrets/ships) are healthy (good/effective), which ones you should use (in which situation). You learn to cook (combine all of the knowledge about the game together) and you make all kinds of tasty dinners (killer fleets and brick wall (Kahuna style) defenses) and delicious desserts (surgical strikes and hacking raids).
[/pokefun]
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Cyborg March 29, 2016, 10:13:51 PM
It's a legitimate criticism. Remember back in version 2 when the bonuses were posted on the tooltip. People hated that because it seemed arbitrary. But I think it was more clear.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan March 30, 2016, 12:32:01 AM
[pokefun]Stuff about shopping[/pokefun]
Oh, I'm not disputing that people can learn to play, if they're interested enough.  I was, and I did, and I got a friend interested, and he did too.  But I have several other friends that I would never put in front of this game, because they don't have the patience to climb that learning curve.

My point is that I think there are some ways to lower the learning curve without changing the gameplay at all.  And I think there are a bunch of others that could lower the learning curve further while only changing the gameplay in very modest ways.

Take Hacking, for example.  Why are there hacking sub-units at all?  Why not just fly your Hacker up to, say, a Fabricator, and target-click the Fabricator to start hacking it?  Wouldn't that be much more intuitive?  It's what I tried to do first, and I doubt I'm the only one.

The reason, I suspect, is that constructing sub-units was the easiest way to implement the feature using the game engine at hand.  It would probably have been harder to give a single unit an "attack" that would not decloak the Hacker, and that would have different effects on different targets.  Plus, there are a few cases (design backups, sensors, knowledge) where the type of hack would be ambiguous, so they'd have to invent some other way for the user to indicate what hack effect they wanted (maybe the AI CS has a 'Sensors' module and a 'Database' module that could be targeted by the Hacker).  But those issues don't seem like showstoppers if there was already a significant rewrite planned.

The outcome would be a hacking system that was just as functional, but was also more intuitive to use.  Obviously, there's an opportunity cost, but I think it's worth considering.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Imago April 02, 2016, 08:20:37 PM
Yeah, the fact that it's possible to learn is no excuse for it being harder to learn than it needs to be.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Kahuna April 03, 2016, 06:59:42 AM
Why are there hacking sub-units at all?  Why not just fly your Hacker up to, say, a Fabricator, and target-click the Fabricator to start hacking it?
Yeah, the fact that it's possible to learn is no excuse for it being harder to learn than it needs to be.

If there's 10 different hacking options then there is unless the game gets dumbed down.
You have to learn what each hack does regardless of how the hacking system works.

How to hack in 3 steps:
1. Build a hacker
2. Move the hacker on the planet you want to hack
3. Select the hack(ing sub unit) you want and place it where you want
-->You have successfully started a hack

That's how hacking works at the moment. If that's too complicated then I don't know what to say. What would be an easier alternative?

Even if it worked as Elestan described it would still have 3 steps:
1. Build a hacker
2. Move the hacker on the planet you want to hack
3. Click an object you want to hack

Which would actually be more tedious than the current system because you would have zoom in and out and find the object on the planet. Now you can just drop the subunit and the hacking starts automatically.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Draco18s April 03, 2016, 01:26:24 PM
Not to mention running multiple simultaneous hacks.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: keith.lamothe April 03, 2016, 02:24:33 PM
unless the game gets dumbed down.
Just wanted to say: I will be doing no dumbing-down :)


On the UI stuff, there's certainly a lot of room for improvement. There's no need to defend the way it is from the perspective of "this is the best way it could be". It's not, by a long shot, and one of my big motivations for the rewrite is so I can do a new UI that's not encumbered by the way things were done six years ago. I also hope to make some of the UI (like the top resource bar and the ship tooltips) at least partially based on xml scripts so you can mod it (both for personal taste and to experiment with possible improvements for later implementation), but that's not really going to address things like the usability of hackers.

If necessary I could defend the current UI from the perspective of "this was the best available trade-off", but I don't think that's needed either.

What is helpful, and I'm glad to see it's happening here, is to identify problems and throw possible solutions around and refine them. Those solutions will probably not be better than the current approach on the first try, and simply switching to another not-great solution isn't going to help. But with refinement there's good potential.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Cyborg April 03, 2016, 03:11:26 PM
Summary, keep discussing! I agree.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan April 03, 2016, 04:38:45 PM
Even if it worked as Elestan described it would still have 3 steps
The difference is that "Select my unit, then target-click the enemy unit for it to go after" is how every other unit in the game works, so it's what new players are going to instinctively try.  If we can make it work that way, it's one less time they need to stop playing to look something up.

I could be wrong, of course.  I'd encourage Arcen to do actual usability testing on the game when evaluating their design.  It shouldn't be too hard to find a pool of 16-24 year olds who haven't played AIW before who could be lured in to your office with a promise of free pizza and LAN gaming.  Drop them in the game, watch them as they try to learn it, and see what they stumble over.

Not to mention running multiple simultaneous hacks.
Just bring in multiple Hackers.  It's a nerf, but a minor one.

While we're on the topic of Hacking, I might as well post some other thoughts I'd written down on it.  These go deeper than UI, and might be a bridge too far for what's planned, but they might be thought-provoking:

1)  I'm not fond of the way the hacking response works, for a couple of reasons:

  - It lets the AI conjure ships out of raw vacuum, coming in from the system edge (as though it had counter-posts), and pouring in from the CS at far higher than the normal reinforcement limit, even if the warp gate has been taken out.  If the AI has the ability to do this, then why doesn't it do it in response to other provocations?  In my opinion, hacking responses should not allow the AI to break its normal ship deployment rules.

  - The whole point of hacking using the security weaknesses represented by HaP is that you're hiding it from the AI.  Yet the AI immediately detects your hacking anyway and starts sending ships at you.  An interesting alternative would be to have the AI's response go through phases, perhaps based on the players' excess HaP and the number of simultaneous hacks they are trying to execute

  Phase 1:  The AI is unaware of your hack, and makes no response.  Status message:  "ARS Hack in xxxxx vs AI 2 proceeding".
  Phase 2:  The AI knows what kind of hack is being executed, but does not know what system.  Systems with the appropriate kind of asset may get hit with Tachyon bursts.  Active Hackers may take ship damage from "countermeasures", and risk destruction if not repaired.  Status message:  "AI 2 executing Network security sweep.  Hacker in xxxxx damaged by countermeasures."
  Phase 3:  The AI knows what system is being hacked.  All reinforcements are diverted to the target system (up to its reinforcement limit), and waves start getting launched through the nearest gate.  AI taunt:  "Found you."
  Phase 4:  For hacks against important installations, if the AI doesn't feel it can make an adequate response in phase 3, it launches an exo-wave led by a "Counter-Hacker Golem"; a force-field immune ship with planetary tachyon scanners and a preferred target of Hackers.

2)  It would be nice if one could have multiple Hackers work together to make the hack go faster.  This would also burn HaP faster and increase the likelihood of detection/severity of the response.

3)  It would be nice if one could research better Hackers.  Maybe the level 1 hackers don't even have cloaking.  Higher level ones might be able to do paralysis or reclamation attacks.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Kahuna April 03, 2016, 05:21:07 PM
another (and perhaps the largest) source of complexity is the number and semi-arbitrary nature of hull types and attack multipliers
Agreed about the hull system. Some of the hull types could go away. Also ammo type vs hull type could replace the attack multipliers.

There's no need to defend the way it is from the perspective of "this is the best way it could be". It's not, by a long shot, and one of my big motivations for the rewrite is so I can do a new UI that's not encumbered by the way things were done six years ago.
Not defending per se, but being unable to understand how something consisting of 3 steps in overly complicated. But hey I could be a human like computer/cyborg without realizing it.

The difference is that "Select my unit, then target-click the enemy unit for it to go after" is how every other unit in the game works, so it's what new players are going to instinctively try.
Most of the objects in the game can't be hacked so how would the newbie know which objects can be targeted with the hacker?

instinctively
When I select a unit I instinctively check out the new window/information/tool tip that pops up. The one where you select the hacking sub units. How could anyone not see it. And if the player sees it why wouldn't the player read what the tool tips say. Too much text in the tool tips?

If we can make it work that way, it's one less time they need to stop playing to look something up.
What does the newbie have to look up when starting a hack? (I assume you mean something other than tool tips)

1)  I'm not fond of the way the hacking response works, for a couple of reasons:
...
[snip]
...
3)  It would be nice if one could research better Hackers.  Maybe the level 1 hackers don't even have cloaking.  Higher level ones might be able to do paralysis or reclamation attacks.
These changes sound good to me. Although simply making the AI redirect all the reinforcements into the planet being hacked wouldn't be much of a challenge (https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16525.0.html).
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin April 04, 2016, 06:58:26 AM
Is Keith Arcen willing to revamp the Starship status by putting in all the big fleet ships with a cap of 5 and immunity to insta-kill? There would be a possibility to make a "starship" perk that would pack several perks, like immunity to reclamation, translocation, ion, etc, and ability to be targeted by OMD and arachnid GPosts (there is also two kind of swallowing, one targeting only fleetships, one targeting only starships). I think it would be both much clearer and more streamlined.

Similar question to buildings: what about a perk-pack with 0 speed, immunity to translocation, tractor, swallowing, reclamation, etc?

Other question: is Arcen willing to sort out the AI "personality" in plots, starting ship's blueprints and wave intensity/delay settings?

I'm willing to put together a detailed list of these features (like a list of what should be a starship and what are the exact mechanical differences, or how to sort the lobby's MF/Plot/Personality options) but I wanted to know if this AIW2 project would encompass that kind of revamp.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Draco18s April 04, 2016, 04:23:16 PM
Is Keith Arcen willing to revamp the Starship status by putting in all the big fleet ships with a cap of 5 and immunity to insta-kill? There would be a possibility to make a "starship" perk that would pack several perks, like immunity to reclamation, translocation, ion, etc, and ability to be targeted by OMD and arachnid GPosts (there is also two kind of swallowing, one targeting only fleetships, one targeting only starships). I think it would be both much clearer and more streamlined.

IIRC there's already an isStarship flag that confers all of those bonuses if the ship didn't already have them.
It's kind of why those low-cap fleet ships aren't starships: because they don't have the full set of starship immunities and they're not supposed to.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin April 05, 2016, 05:18:10 AM
Is Keith Arcen willing to revamp the Starship status by putting in all the big fleet ships with a cap of 5 and immunity to insta-kill? There would be a possibility to make a "starship" perk that would pack several perks, like immunity to reclamation, translocation, ion, etc, and ability to be targeted by OMD and arachnid GPosts (there is also two kind of swallowing, one targeting only fleetships, one targeting only starships). I think it would be both much clearer and more streamlined.

IIRC there's already an isStarship flag that confers all of those bonuses if the ship didn't already have them.
It's kind of why those low-cap fleet ships aren't starships: because they don't have the full set of starship immunities and they're not supposed to.
I think they should. And also I think the flag must be displayed. Moreover, IIRC, the arachnid GPost targets only starships and big, low-cap (5) fleetships without it being clearly written somewhere.

I really want to know the position of Arcen/Keith on the 5-cap fleetships.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: keith.lamothe April 05, 2016, 12:06:57 PM
I don't think it's necessary that all low-cap fleet ships be moved to the starship category. But I'm not opposed to reevaluating them individually for clarity.

In general with the rewrite I'm not trying to redesign the game except where I see it's necessary from a foundational perspective (to make higher performance, multi-core, modding, etc less impossible) to avoid getting right back into the "well, it's already this way and it'd be really hard to change..." situation.

Stuff where it'd be straightforward to change after the lava's cooled (like the starships thing), and especially stuff that like that where the community may or may not even want it, I'm generally  not messing with during the main rewrite.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan April 05, 2016, 01:21:47 PM
The difference is that "Select my unit, then target-click the enemy unit for it to go after" is how every other unit in the game works, so it's what new players are going to instinctively try.
Most of the objects in the game can't be hacked so how would the newbie know which objects can be targeted with the hacker?

The tooltip of the hackable unit could indicate it, preferably with a prominent icon that looks like a Hacker.

When I select a unit I instinctively check out the new window/information/tool tip that pops up. The one where you select the hacking sub units. How could anyone not see it. And if the player sees it why wouldn't the player read what the tool tips say. Too much text in the tool tips?

Yes, and too many subunits to read through.  I remember the first time I clicked on a Hacker, I decided to put off learning about Hacking until I'd gotten a better understanding of the basics of the game.

What does the newbie have to look up when starting a hack? (I assume you mean something other than tool tips)
My immediate reaction to the Hacking process was "Hacking seems big and complicated.  I shouldn't try to do it without having read the Wiki first."  Most of the information I needed actually was in the tooltips, but it took effort to sift through it.  If the key bullet points (HaP cost, time, one-sentence effect description) were presented on the target, the player would be getting just the information they need, when they need it.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan April 05, 2016, 03:48:04 PM
So, another simplification request on my list is Warp Gates.  Right now, there are a bunch of different kinds of gates, but I've never found the differences to be very helpful.

In my opinion, it would be better to consolidate them down to one, or perhaps two types of gates:

The first acts just like an artificial wormhole between two systems; ships can fly through it just like a normal wormhole, use it in route planning, etc.  It requires building a gate on both ends, and cannot be re-pointed once built.

The second (perhaps higher tech level) is a fully networked gate.  It would also have a default (but changable) destination where ships go if just sent through the gate, but ships on a route that enter one will automatically emerge from the closest gate to their destination, to avoid the need to micro-manage the gate.

In all cases, the player would need Supply and a Builder on both ends to build a gate.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: TechSY730 April 05, 2016, 11:56:16 PM
unless the game gets dumbed down.
Just wanted to say: I will be doing no dumbing-down :)

Hooray! (party emote that isn't present on this forum instance)

The ridiculous custom-ability (except for the notable lack of mod support, which may be fixed if this pans out) and huge scale (both breadth and depth) are key features make AI War, well, AI war, IMO.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin April 06, 2016, 05:44:10 AM
I'm generally not messing with during the main rewrite.
Got it. Thanks for the answer.

My main concern was to:
1) make advanced starship constructors more desirable;
2) improve clarity and coherency;
3) simplify tooltip by merging perks into one "starship" status.

Speaking of merging perks under a status, I think the "building" question got packed with the starship matter, but I feel there is a more subtle concern here. The way AI War currently works: everything is a "unit", and buildings are just units with 0 speed and perks like immunity to swallowing, translocation, tractor, etc (everything that would move it). Which is fine. But maybe there is something to do with the core of the game's engine about the buildings, more than with the starships that can be modded fleet- or starship easily. Would it be interesting to split "unit" between "ship" and "building" more deeply than in the stats? Like the starship status the tooltip would be simplified by merging the various immunities, but maybe there are optimizations or something more to gain with this. I don't know.

Or maybe I'm wrong and it's no different from the starship type and would be easily modded latter.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin April 11, 2016, 06:09:48 AM
This sounds to be the place about AIW2, so here I am (again) for (yet another) question.

Do you, Arcen, plan to add mod support for galaxy generation? For instance, I would see something like a Lua interface or so where each graph is a file with a function that defines how vertices link to each other. User input would be defined by such "mod" and could be on/off checkbox (do you want your clusters to be microcosm?) or integer sliders (total number of planets, width and height of a grid map, etc) or float sliders (probability for a link between A and B, etc).

Does this sounds feasible? Or too complicated for too few added value?
I'm curious.
Thanks in advance.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: keith.lamothe April 11, 2016, 01:41:57 PM
Do you, Arcen, plan to add mod support for galaxy generation?
I'm hoping to make that script-based, yes, even for the "stock" types. We'll see if that works out :)
: Remains/Cleanup Drones./Reprisal
: Elestan April 11, 2016, 02:42:19 PM
I mentioned Cleanup Drones earlier in the thread; they seem like a relic of a bygone age.  If the AI never rebuilds anything, then AI structures probably should not leave remains at all.

That leaves Cleanup Drones as a solution in search of a problem.  Taking them out would be one option.  As an alternative, perhaps they could play in the salvage mechanics:  When ships die near a Cleanup Drone, the player could receive salvage metal, and any AI Reprisal contribution could be reduced or eliminated.

Although, frankly, the Reprisal mechanic never really made sense to me; it seems like it might have been added out of a quest to "balance" human salvage with an AI-counterpart.  But I don't think such things are needed; there are plenty of other ways to make the AI harder.  And the gameplay effect is to give the player an extra kick when they've already suffered a loss, which (for me) isn't particularly fun.  Plus, storywise, the AI is making its ships in another galaxy, so some extra scrap metal near the human player shouldn't affect its production anyway.  I'd prefer for Reprisal to be an option, so that I don't have to use it.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: tadrinth April 18, 2016, 04:44:22 AM
Agree that cleanup drones aren't adding much.  Mines are pretty uncommon and I'm not sure how the AI ever repairs them from remains. 

The salvage + reprisal mechanics are intended to solve two problems at once.  The first is that when you lose a fleet, it can take a very long time to rebuild all those ships, because your metal cap doesn't really keep pace with the total cost of your fleet. 

The second is that losing a fleet didn't feel particularly dangerous.  The usual response was to put time to +10 and wait until your fleet was back, then throw it back into the grinder. 

The reprisal + salvage mechanic ensures that when you lose a fleet, you're now in danger because of it, but if you survive, your economy gets a boost that allows you to refleet faster. 

Admittedly, doesn't feel great that the AI kicks you when you're down, but I tend to reload after stupid fleet losses.

If you could disable reprisals, that option would probably also have to disable salvage. 


The salvage+reprisal mechanics do have some rough edges, certainly.  I'm working on yet another attempt at a Neinzul themed expansion, so I have full caps of Enclave + NCC starships.  I see reprisal waves *just* from the drone spam.  Unfortunately, the Neinzul Youngster only sends younglings as reprisal waves, which means they don't actually give me any salvage, they just suck.  The other AI just happened to unlock Youngling Fireflies, too, and it's very fond of Firefly waves, so I've gotten hardly any salvage this game, even using my homeworld as a whipping boy all game. 
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan April 18, 2016, 05:09:03 AM
The second is that losing a fleet didn't feel particularly dangerous.  The usual response was to put time to +10 and wait until your fleet was back, then throw it back into the grinder.

I would prefer to address this with AI behavior.  If losing the fleet weakened the players' defenses, the threatfleet could take advantage of the opening to attack.

On the other hand, if they made sure their defenses would be strong even with the fleet lost, then I see no compelling reason that losing a fleet needs to feel dangerous.  That just seems like the game trying to force a loss-averse play style on the players whether they like it or not.

Admittedly, doesn't feel great that the AI kicks you when you're down, but I tend to reload after stupid fleet losses.

I would prefer to play through my losses, but I'll admit that I've sometimes reloaded precisely because I didn't want to have to deal with the reprisal waves.

If you could disable reprisals, that option would probably also have to disable salvage.

To me, it seems perfectly valid to want to play with either, both, or neither of them.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Mánagarmr April 19, 2016, 07:24:40 AM
Losing a fleet DOES impact you. Ever heard of retaliation fleet? Every ship lost in enemy territory gives the enemy extra resources to build up to a retaltion fleet.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin April 19, 2016, 02:49:49 PM
Losing a fleet DOES impact you. Ever heard of retaliation fleet? Every ship lost in enemy territory gives the enemy extra resources to build up to a retaltion fleet.
That's the reprisal, right? Or are you talking of another mechanic that does the same thing?

I'm pushing open doors:
Scrap (or salvage) (humans gaining metal for AI ships destroyed on their territory) and reprisal (AIs launching big waves when human ships die on their territory) were created at the same time and are two facets of the same mechanism.
What is this retaliation fleet you're talking about, Mànagarmr? Is it the reprisal waves? Or something else? I'm confused.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: tadrinth May 09, 2016, 10:47:55 PM
I suppose you could put human salvage and AI reprisal waves on separate sliders, much like alt champ progress and alt champ nemesis, and just say that to keep the challenge you should keep the reprisal intensity as high as the salvage intensity.  My point was that disabling just one or the other would make the game significantly easier or harder, but I guess that's just AI War.  It would be a little odd to have a minor faction that has a nonzero default, though, and since salvage and reprisals are currently intended to be part of the default experience, you'd want to default them to both be on at the current intensity.

I suppose there's not much point in offering to volunteer to work on the current codebase if a rework is coming.  I have some bugs I'd really like to fix, and it wouldn't be the first crufty code base I've poked at. 

: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Elestan May 10, 2016, 02:05:57 AM
I suppose you could put human salvage and AI reprisal waves on separate sliders, much like alt champ progress and alt champ nemesis

I actually have much the same comment about the Nemesis Champion Exo-waves; I should be able to tune them independently, rather than having them always on if using Champions.
: Re: Is there a possibility of a new AI War expansion anytime soon? And Why Not?
: Pumpkin May 10, 2016, 03:34:35 AM
I suppose you could put human salvage and AI reprisal waves on separate sliders, much like alt champ progress and alt champ nemesis

I actually have much the same comment about the Nemesis Champion Exo-waves; I should be able to tune them independently, rather than having them always on if using Champions.
Just like the exos of the Golems and Spirecrafts.
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