Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => Topic started by: Clasmir on December 30, 2015, 06:12:29 pm
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Hello.
I finally won a war and had the happy green text at the top of the screen. I had expected the AI to stop sending troops but that isn't the case.
Is this normal?
I had wanted to poke around with the system but I spent everything defeating the last AI, now it appears they can come through and clean me out. That makes me a sad panda. :(
What am I missing?
Thanks
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You technically won the game, but ships stay around. It's like Star Wars - yeah you blew up the Death Star and killed the Emperor, but there are still a ton of angry enemy forces scattered around the galaxy.
So yeah, you "won" the war, but the victors are still shackled with the task of cleaning up the mess. Maybe the narrative of that particular game of AI War was that nobody won; the AIs were destroyed but their decentralized and uncoordinated ships were still strong enough to clean up everything and are now floating in space, purposeless.
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But that isn't what I am describing. They keep coming as if nothing has changed. It appears that the developers change nothing on the wave mechanics after you win. That is what I am attempting to verify.
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You are basically correct. When you destroy the 2nd AI Home Command Station, the game is "over" - but like Civilization games, you can keep playing. There's nothing left to do, so the game just continues with the AI sending waves, reinforcing, etc... but since the game is already "over", it doesn't mean anything. You might as well quit.
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I believe there's a challenge around here somewhere about taking over every single planet in the galaxy, just to spite the AI.
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Thanks for the reply.
Interesting that this doesn't follow the lore of the game itself. The game clearly states that the AI will not be capable of sending more units. Yet it does.
Nobody has a problem with that?
Boggles my mind.
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its a game that takes grand strategy levels of time to finish. Most people don't seem particularly worried what the game does after they've won, since its besides the point; they aren't going to stick around most of the time and clean up the rest of the ships.
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Then we will have to agree to disagree...
I spent hours getting my grand strategy with golems and I wanted to keep that final save game with my ships as a display case if you will.
What you've described is disappointing to me.
Thanks for responding.
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Thanks for the reply.
Interesting that this doesn't follow the lore of the game itself. The game clearly states that the AI will not be capable of sending more units. Yet it does.
Nobody has a problem with that?
Boggles my mind.
I'm with you! I think they should all just stop receiving supply or slowly drift along random vectors until they vanish from the board. Offers an optional "Scouring the Shire" activity for those drawn to such things, or as a screensaver to dance around.
Maybe not many would support you if you went off and made a Mantis about it right here: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/my_view_page.php, but I would.
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Great suggestion.
Done.
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=18104
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Already opposed by Cyborg. Of course.
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Should we care?
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Should we care?
Nah. Cyborg is a solid dude and an Arcen faithful fan who has given some really great feedback and has positively affected the development of their video games over the years. He's also got a mind like a steel trap and has already formulated complex and bulletproof arguments against what would be a largely optional and fairly simple adjustment to the game.
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While I can think of why it acts like it does, that doesn't mean its not a cool idea. Have a support.
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The reason I voted why I did is because the current feature allows for continuous gaming, like a game of civilization that will still play after you win. I don't see a good reason other than vanity to victory lap your ships around an empty game. But if it's a flag or an option, I would be fine with that. That's why I put "inclined against it."
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FWIW, the Showdown Devices alternate win condition actually shuts that stuff down.
I suppose having a normal "kill both HCS's" win accomplish a similar effect would make sense, but as Cyborg says that would actually reduce your options of what to do after you win. So that would mean yet another toggle in the lobby.
The victory logic has always been weird and incomplete, no defense there.
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Is it possible to keep playing forever? I had assumed with the way it continued you will always lose.
But I agree that having an option to simply stop incoming waves (which follows the game lore btw!) would be a great compromise.
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Is it possible to keep playing forever? I had assumed with the way it continued you will always lose.
But I agree that having an option to simply stop incoming waves (which follows the game lore btw!) would be a great compromise.
You have that ability now if you enable the "showdown" event, as Keith is saying. I once lobbied for a better ending. I wanted some kind of reward, an unlockable, animation, some kind of fanfare for winning such a long campaign… so I get the spirit of what you're saying even if I don't agree with the implementation you propose.
I think you'll have to settle for the achievements as markers of your campaign successes. Alternatively, writing up an AAR and posting in the forum is also popular.
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So I had a save game far back enough I that I still had one remaining AI. I decided to invoke the showdown event. I had used the "two random easy" AI and by chance I had "Shield Ninny" and "Support Corps". I found that if I kept one system with an enemy presense AND my own presence, the AI would drain away its threat into waves of ships there for the most part.
It made moving around my super ships much easier.
When I finally had the showdown event complete, I waited for the AI to come but of course it didn't because of shield ninny and support corps.
I slowly crawled all the way back to the remaining AI and attacked with my Exodian Blade. No incoming MASSIVE waves for support. Sweet. The remaining ships in the system were easy to defeat.
So this still boggles the mind. The game LORE clearly states that defeating the second AI collapses the portal. The developers already have code in place that turns OFF the incoming waves as evident by the showdown event.
Either change the lore to model what happens in the default game or stop the waves upon the death of the second AI.
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I used to think the same thing. You're discovering things that the community already knows and has moved on from. The game "lore" has always been a rough guide. We went over that years ago, and to this day some people mess around in it, but it was never something that was taken really seriously. I think what's happening here is that the game lore is implying that the war is over when you win the game. It's not guaranteeing you a game condition. Maybe the wording isn't satisfying, but that's the reality of it.
It's not all that dissimilar from game+ modes for platformers. Technically you beat the game and rescued whomever, but it still allows you to start from the beginning and do it again with the same saved lives and points.
If you want to impact the game and change something (if that's what this is really about), you still can, but I think you would have better luck choosing some active game mechanics that you would like improved. Popular targets include transports and arguing triangle/starship balance.
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Cyborg,
What you have said is an excellent point of view from someone who has played this game for a long time.
That doesn't make it right. It reflects reality as it is now - Yes.
I came to this game because it was on sale. I'm sure there are going to be more. Will others have problem with the way the game ends. I suspect so. Will they be outspoken like I am?
I think it is worth while to point out the elephant in the room and do something about it.
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I agree. Even if "the community," (these forums? only active members? just the top posters? just people who agree with Cyborg?)-- which reflects a very small number compared total installations--does not regard this matter as very important, it's one of those things that can stick in a silent majority kind of player who might be left with a bit of a sour taste, affecting their satisfaction and causing them to bounce off the game, or even the publisher.
Clasmir's reaction is, "Hey, I thought I beat the game." It's completely worthwhile to bring up an issue--even an aesthetic one--that bugs a new player, that the hardcore Arcen fan might hypothetically shrug at.
Going for the killshot and being rewarded with a puzzling, unexplained continuation of aggression is a raw edge that could use a bit of polish. That polish can take any number of forms, such as the showdown device mechanic, but I can't blame folks for wanting a bit more in-game recognition of their dogged efforts even if they haven't enabled showdown devices.
What I will agree with Cyborg on is that it's possible that the lack of a lengthy cinematic butt-patting at the end of the game does kinda compel the player to conceive of their own satisfying ending, and has perhaps indirectly fueled some of the AAR's we see here.
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It's certainly a raw edge. It's also not one encountered by most of the people who buy the game (see other thread about victory being rare). But it does need work.
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I don't really see the need for an option to disable the proposed change. If you really want to sit around and fight more waves, you can just save before you end the game...
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I would suggest a work-around. When you "win", hit the "pause" button. Now you can admire your handywork at your leisure.
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I would suggest a work-around. When you "win", hit the "pause" button. Now you can admire your handywork at your leisure.
A true minimalist in action. :P
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I would suggest a work-around. When you "win", hit the "pause" button. Now you can admire your handywork at your leisure.
Haha I like this. Can almost picture hacking together an AHK script that takes a bunch of picturesque screenshots of random planet areas, applies some artistic image filters, some frame graphics, and farts out a PDF ebook of your epic tale's end.
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Incidentally, way waaay back in 2009, prior to Keith even being involved, the game actually halted all play when you won. "You won, you are done, that is it. Get off my space lawn now. ;)"
But, people asked to be able to keep playing if they felt like it, so I added that in -- as it is now. I felt like the option to keep playing or not was kind of inherent based on whether you keep playing or not. And in terms of it violating the lore with waves still coming, yes that's right -- everything after the victory is basically "well you were having fun, so if you want to keep going then here you are."
i'm not saying that's the perfect approach, but that's the history of why it's like that, anyway.
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The history is interesting thanks and makes sense.
As you probably surmise I am approaching this as a new user and attempting to avoid the confusion, disillusionment etc that is likely to occur. We as new customers haven't a clue to this rich history.
I would be mpre satisfied with a halted screen and perhaps a small out of context dialog box explaining the state of things from this point on.
Thanks for replying.
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No problem -- and yep, I totally get that.
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I think you don't want to forced a sudden stop to the game, but neither do you want the AI to continue on its merry way as though nothing happened. So, what would an appropriate outcome be? Here's MHO:
- The exo-wormholes should close, and all exo-waves should stop, as the lore says they should.
- AIP should probably drop to zero permanently, since the alert status of the exo-AI is no longer relevant.
- It might be plausible to continue normal waves, CPAs, and reinforcements, under the premise that the AI still has some production facilities still left inside this galaxy.
- Arguably, it would be appropriate to convert all remaining AI ships to general threat, so that they will regroup and try to do something.
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Imho as long as a new player can connect the dots to an understandable finish then disillusionment can be avoided. If the developers have the bandwidth for more, so be it.
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When you win, you win. There isn't much more to understand imo. But yeah the lore not being correct is kind of weird. On the other hand the lore has never been the strong point nor the reason I play AI War so I don't really care.
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There's a pretty obvious way to resolve the camps - one wants the game to go on as before, and one wants a sense of concrete victory. Make the inter-galaxy wormholes destroyable once you destroy the AI home command stations.
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So I certainly can see why it is interesting in a morbid sort of way to keep the game going. I experimented with the fallen spire story line and after winning that way decided to capture every single planet and build Mongo defenses on each exo wormhole as well and to a lesser extent the nearby planets. I suppose one day far in the future the AI will still win but my PC is likely to come to a halt processing the 10k AI ships...
Having botnet golem, 3 resurrection(sp?) golems, 3 player dreadnoughts, screen fulls of fallen spire dreadnoughts and every single defense item possible within the direct planets - makes for a very difficult AI offense...
And that's all cool now that I know the game and the history.
If I hadn't searched and taken the time to ask WTF in regards to that first win disillusionment event, I might have stopped playing.
I still think it is worth while to make the default action upon winning the game - to stop the exo wormholes.
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I'm going to agree that it would be nice if winning had a bit more punch to it.
Especially for the desperate situation where you are scraping out a win by the skin of your teeth... it would be nice if something happened to the AI so that they didn't just finish killing you after you "won", it takes away some of the feeling of accomplishment. :)
Just something as simple as killing the exo wormholes and hugely reducing AIP would be a nice little "congrats" to the player while still letting them mess around if they want.
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I couldn't agree more. Thanks for the post.
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Just something as simple as killing the exo wormholes and hugely reducing AIP would be a nice little "congrats" to the player while still letting them mess around if they want.
Making the x AI to stop sending waves would basically halve the AIP when you destroy the x AI's home command station.
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Making the AIs to stop sending waves would basically halve the AIP when you destroy the first AI's home command station.
Nobody's talking about changing anything when the first AI falls. These suggestions are all for when the second AI falls.
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Making the AIs to stop sending waves would basically halve the AIP when you destroy the first AI's home command station.
Nobody's talking about changing anything when the first AI falls. These suggestions are all for when the second AI falls.
I know.
Making the x AI to stop sending waves would basically halve the AIP when you destroy the x AI's home command station.
Fixed that.
If the AIs shouldn't be able to send waves after they have been defeated then why should the first/second AI be able to send waves when it has been defeated.
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If the AIs shouldn't be able to send waves after they have been defeated then why should the first/second AI be able to send waves when it has been defeated.
In my opinion, they shouldn't; taking out an AI's home station should close its exo-wormhole. If the game wants to keep the pressure increasing after that point, it should increase the AIP by whatever amount is needed to do so, and let the remaining AIs take up the charge.
But that's a bigger change than what was being asked for and discussed here. I also think it would be an improvement to just shut down all the exo-wormholes when the last AI falls.
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If the AIs shouldn't be able to send waves after they have been defeated then why should the first/second AI be able to send waves when it has been defeated.
In my opinion, they shouldn't; taking out an AI's home station should close its exo-wormhole. If the game wants to keep the pressure increasing after that point, it should increase the AIP by whatever amount is needed to do so, and let the remaining AIs take up the charge.
But that's a bigger change than what was being asked for and discussed here. I also think it would be an improvement to just shut down all the exo-wormholes when the last AI falls.
There already is a method to have the AI send double strength waves. I would imagine it possible that one AI HW falls that AI cannot send waves, but the other AI compensates by sending waves with twice the strength (which evens out to about half as often)
Could be a potential plot option.
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Here is another instance of my frustration with the game.
For the first time I decided to use the random script features that uses all the expansions. I've crawled my way to the point where I can win. I had to avoid planets that trigger the rocket corps. I had to tunnel deep into AI territory to get the final "A" shield. I have the first AI home planet weakened and ready for the push and I'm near the second as well and this time around I've done it with just armored and regeneration golems.
However, now that I'm poised to win I've lost heart. I know that as soon as I do get the "You Win"... Nothing really will change. I'll end up turtling if I want to keep playing and most of long line of planets I've captured will fall.
The only fun factor was seeing if I could engineer a win, but once I realized I could - the wind is knocked out of my sails because there isn't really ANY victory. What's the point to go on now that I know I can win.
For all of you holdouts, do you begin to see my point?
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You win once, you change up the game and make it harder. Rince and repeat. If you're not the guy who likes to replay a game, you don't. You win and you move on. That's how it is with pretty much every game ever.
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Certainly the ending needs work, I've said that before.
That said, don't assume you've got a victory until both AIs are down. Depending on the settings and the difficulty things can get pretty crazy in the final assault.
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Cough, avenger, cough.
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Indeed: https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11816.0.html
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Thanks Keith.
I see your point. I probably will still make the attempt. One is level 7 the other is 6 and (gulp) one is an avenger. =/
I guess victory is not assured!
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The avenger by itself, if you prepare appropriately, isn't so bad. If you aren't prepared...
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Interestingly, I haven't come close to winning since before Avengers were introduced.
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Here is another instance of my frustration with the game.
For the first time I decided to use the random script features that uses all the expansions. I've crawled my way to the point where I can win. I had to avoid planets that trigger the rocket corps. I had to tunnel deep into AI territory to get the final "A" shield. I have the first AI home planet weakened and ready for the push and I'm near the second as well and this time around I've done it with just armored and regeneration golems.
However, now that I'm poised to win I've lost heart. I know that as soon as I do get the "You Win"... Nothing really will change. I'll end up turtling if I want to keep playing and most of long line of planets I've captured will fall.
The only fun factor was seeing if I could engineer a win, but once I realized I could - the wind is knocked out of my sails because there isn't really ANY victory. What's the point to go on now that I know I can win.
For all of you holdouts, do you begin to see my point?
Yes, I see that you have drawn attention and bumped your own topic repeatedly now. Everyone understood you before (although I understand what you're really doing more than others).
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AI Wars is more about challenging yourself. Along that theme, if you really want a "I beat the AI" goal, I suggest capturing all the planets on the map.