Author Topic: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?  (Read 5195 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2016, 06:54:43 PM »
FWIW, the Showdown Devices alternate win condition actually shuts that stuff down.

I suppose having a normal "kill both HCS's" win accomplish a similar effect would make sense, but as Cyborg says that would actually reduce your options of what to do after you win. So that would mean yet another toggle in the lobby.

The victory logic has always been weird and incomplete, no defense there.
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Offline Clasmir

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2016, 06:59:09 PM »
Is it possible to keep playing forever? I had assumed with the way it continued you will always lose.

But I agree that having an option to simply stop incoming waves (which follows the game lore btw!) would be a great compromise.


Offline Cyborg

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2016, 09:17:26 PM »
Is it possible to keep playing forever? I had assumed with the way it continued you will always lose.

But I agree that having an option to simply stop incoming waves (which follows the game lore btw!) would be a great compromise.

You have that ability now if you enable the "showdown" event, as Keith is saying. I once lobbied for a better ending. I wanted some kind of reward, an unlockable, animation, some kind of fanfare for winning such a long campaign… so I get the spirit of what you're saying even if I don't agree with the implementation you propose.

I think you'll have to settle for the achievements as markers of your campaign successes. Alternatively, writing up an AAR and posting in the forum is also popular.
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Offline Clasmir

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2016, 03:57:59 PM »
So I had a save game far back enough I that I still had one remaining AI. I decided to invoke the showdown event. I had used the "two random easy" AI and by chance I had "Shield Ninny" and "Support Corps". I found that if I kept one system with an enemy presense AND my own presence, the AI would drain away its threat into waves of ships there for the most part.

It made moving around my super ships much easier.

When I finally had the showdown event complete, I waited for the AI to come but of course it didn't because of shield ninny and support corps.

I slowly crawled all the way back to the remaining AI and attacked with my Exodian Blade. No incoming MASSIVE waves for support. Sweet. The remaining ships in the system were easy to defeat.

So this still boggles the mind. The game LORE clearly states that defeating the second AI collapses the portal. The developers already have code in place that turns OFF the incoming waves as evident by the showdown event.

Either change the lore to model what happens in the default game or stop the waves upon the death of the second AI.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2016, 04:37:22 PM »
I used to think the same thing. You're discovering things that the community already knows and has moved on from. The game "lore" has always been a rough guide. We went over that years ago, and to this day some people mess around in it, but it was never something that was taken really seriously. I think what's happening here is that the game lore is implying that the war is over when you win the game. It's not guaranteeing you a game condition. Maybe the wording isn't satisfying, but that's the reality of it.

It's not all that dissimilar from game+ modes for platformers. Technically you beat the game and rescued whomever, but it still allows you to start from the beginning and do it again with the same saved lives and points.

If you want to impact the game and change something (if that's what this is really about), you still can, but I think you would have better luck choosing some active game mechanics that you would like improved. Popular targets include transports and arguing triangle/starship balance.
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Offline Clasmir

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2016, 05:48:33 PM »
Cyborg,

What you have said is an excellent point of view from someone who has played this game for a long time.

That doesn't make it right. It reflects reality as it is now - Yes.

I came to this game because it was on sale. I'm sure there are going to be more. Will others have problem with the way the game ends. I suspect so.  Will they be outspoken like I am?

I think it is worth while to point out the elephant in the room and do something about it.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2016, 07:36:49 AM »
I agree. Even if "the community," (these forums? only active members? just the top posters? just people who agree with Cyborg?)-- which reflects a very small number compared total installations--does not regard this matter as very important, it's one of those things that can stick in a silent majority kind of player who might be left with a bit of a sour taste, affecting their satisfaction and causing them to bounce off the game, or even the publisher.

Clasmir's reaction is, "Hey, I thought I beat the game." It's completely worthwhile to bring up an issue--even an aesthetic one--that bugs a new player, that the hardcore Arcen fan might hypothetically shrug at.

Going for the killshot and being rewarded with a puzzling, unexplained continuation of aggression is a raw edge that could use a bit of polish. That polish can take any number of forms, such as the showdown device mechanic, but I can't blame folks for wanting a bit more in-game recognition of their dogged efforts even if they haven't enabled showdown devices.

What I will agree with Cyborg on is that it's possible that the lack of a lengthy cinematic butt-patting at the end of the game does kinda compel the player to conceive of their own satisfying ending, and has perhaps indirectly fueled some of the AAR's we see here.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2016, 12:24:43 PM »
It's certainly a raw edge. It's also not one encountered by most of the people who buy the game (see other thread about victory being rare). But it does need work.
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Offline Gemzo

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2016, 03:18:49 PM »
I don't really see the need for an option to disable the proposed change. If you really want to sit around and fight more waves, you can just save before you end the game...

Offline NickAragua

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2016, 04:28:13 PM »
I would suggest a work-around. When you "win", hit the "pause" button. Now you can admire your handywork at your leisure.

Offline Clasmir

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2016, 07:33:10 PM »
I would suggest a work-around. When you "win", hit the "pause" button. Now you can admire your handywork at your leisure.

A true minimalist in action. :P

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2016, 08:42:05 PM »
I would suggest a work-around. When you "win", hit the "pause" button. Now you can admire your handywork at your leisure.
Haha I like this. Can almost picture hacking together an AHK script that takes a bunch of picturesque screenshots of random planet areas, applies some artistic image filters, some frame graphics, and farts out a PDF ebook of your epic tale's end.

Offline x4000

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2016, 05:31:08 AM »
Incidentally, way waaay back in 2009, prior to Keith even being involved, the game actually halted all play when you won.  "You won, you are done, that is it.  Get off my space lawn now. ;)"

But, people asked to be able to keep playing if they felt like it, so I added that in -- as it is now.  I felt like the option to keep playing or not was kind of inherent based on whether you keep playing or not.  And in terms of it violating the lore with waves still coming, yes that's right -- everything after the victory is basically "well you were having fun, so if you want to keep going then here you are."

i'm not saying that's the perfect approach, but that's the history of why it's like that, anyway.
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Offline Clasmir

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2016, 12:50:55 PM »
The history is interesting thanks and makes sense.

As you probably surmise I am approaching this as a new user and attempting to avoid the confusion, disillusionment etc that is likely to occur. We as new customers haven't a clue to this rich history.

I would be mpre satisfied with a halted screen and perhaps a small out of context dialog box explaining the state of things from this point on.

Thanks for replying.

Offline x4000

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Re: I won! Why does the AI keep coming stronger and stronger?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2016, 01:21:14 PM »
No problem -- and yep, I totally get that.
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