Do SuperFortresses need to be made more useful or interesting?

[TechSY730]

I believe the only time the AI gets one is on a Fortress Baron homeworld.

Definetly not true. I recently had one two hops from my homeworld (and right on the most important hub. Damned.)

Yes. Fortress barons have an elevated chance of getting superfortresses, but other AIs have a low but >0 chance as well. Similar story for many of the other AI "toys" (like captive human settlements).

[doctorfrog]

I'm trying to think of the function of Fortresses in a flavor sense. In the realm of sci-fi and cartoons, what do we usually get with Fortresses that make them interesting things? I'm directly answering the OP's question directly here rather than thinking in terms of game mechanics in the hopes of trying to come up with something interesting.

I'm thinking GI Joe type fortresses here. Fortresses are these heavily fortified (duh) things bristling with weapons, but largely immobile. If it's TMNT's Technodrome, and it is capable of moving very slowly (and looking incredibly awesome).

They are heavily armored and hard to assault, and often spawn enemies. And you're never sure what sorts of enemies you'll encounter until you attack, because that heavy armor means lots of secrets.

They are often command centers in their own right, and we can assume that part of their value is in coordinating military action, particularly in its own defense.

Sci-fi cartoon fortresses are also often sites of secret labs and experiments.

So, just extrapolating from all of that, here's how I'd see it translated in terms of game mechanics. From that point of view, fortresses should:

• Look super cool.
• Be heavily armored. (Though I know some folks complain that they are only vulnerable to bombers, this makes thematic sense. The trouble comes when everything else in the system is also only vulnerable to bombers.)
• If they are mobile, they move very slowly.
• Harbor a small/moderate militia of enemies of some sort.
• A fortress militia may be composed of an unexpected assortment and number of enemies sufficient to defend the structure.
• Like the Neinzul Carrier drones, fortress militia might be low cost units unique to the fortress itself, or a mix of standard and drone-like ships.
• Have a beneficial "efficiency" effect on friendly units within a certain sphere of influence. Efficiency could be evident in movement speed, firepower, repair, and/or in a higher level of "intelligent" behavior.
• Have a beneficial "science" effect on friendly structures. They could offer a moderate science extraction bonus above and beyond what a system is capable, they could speed up science extraction in all adjacent sectors, they could grant cloaking to all science vessels, or unlock a random higher Mark ship for production on that planet only. Similar benefit if you crack an AI fortress.
• Another "secret lab" effect could be the ability to repair units that are normally irreparable, or to delay or halt attrition for self-attritioning units.

Again, I'm less interested in crunching numbers and balancing as I am in trying to make fortresses "interesting."

[chemical_art]

Super forts feel tough enough.

 However, a super fort has less dps then a single fort III. That isn't super at all.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Fortresses are defensive outposts. What if we take fortresses to a complete extreme for superfortresses, rather than just upping all of the numbers?

So... Superfortresses could possibly have some or all of these abilities:

1) Superfortresses provide supply, and capture planets... so, can be built to replace the command station for an extremely critical world. Of course, you only get one, so you'd better make sure it's an important world.
2) Superfortresses can build units and structures, like a fusion of a space dock and a regular command station.
3) Superfortresses deploy a force of built up drones to attack, while also having their main guns.
4) Superfortresses possibly have slots to add mods to.
5) Superfortresses act as the energy collector on the planet, and projects a force field.
6) Superfortresses can move, slowly, and cannot use any abilities while moving.
7) Superfortresses, unlike other command stations, only function as a tremendous all-in-one structure. Everything you need, everything you can imagine, for the exhorbitant cost and for the cost of only-one-per-game... or at least only one at a time.

I just really like the idea of an incredibly powerful complete package sort of thing. That's what I think when I think Superfortress. I don't like the idea of it just being a stronger fortress. If it's just a stronger fortress, you may as well just make a Fortress mark IV/V.

[TechSY730]

Super forts feel tough enough.

 However, a super fort has less dps then a single fort III. That isn't super at all.

Actually, a Superfortress has more DPS than a single Mk III fortress. Not by much, but it is more.

(Actual math to come later)

[LordSloth]

Actually, a single super fortress has almost double the DPS of a single mk3 fortress, and about 2/3s the DPS as an entire cap of Mk3 Fortresses. If you couldn't stack more than one fort of any mark in a system, there would be no complaints, imo.

The damage per shot is dramatically lower, the number of shots per salvo is higher (over twice as many), and most importantly, it fires twice as fast. The last bit is the saving grace.

It looks less gratifying at first glance, but factor in the reduced overkill and it starts to look really good in isolation.

[Eternaly_Lost]

Super forts feel tough enough.

 However, a super fort has less dps then a single fort III. That isn't super at all.

Actually, a Superfortress has more DPS than a single Mk III fortress. Not by much, but it is more.

(Actual math to come later)

More DPS then a single fort III is not really that special. When I looked at my first super fortress, I was expecting something major with a name like that. But it really did not live upto it name. The new modular fortresses are a lot more powerful due to the fact that they can shield/cloak/harm bombers.

It called super fortress, not Fortress MIV, make it live up to that name somehow. I do rather like LaughingThesaurus ideas.

[chemical_art]

Ah, the super fort does more damage for it has half the reload rate, gotcha. I still find it underwhelming.

[Cinth]

If you couldn't stack more than one fort of any mark in a system, there would be no complaints, imo.

Yes there would be.

[Coppermantis]

If you couldn't stack more than one fort of any mark in a system, there would be no complaints, imo.

Yes there would be.

Agreed, some of us like ridiculously well defended worlds.

[Wingflier]

I put, "Nothing needs to change", because I think the Fortress concept itself is currently broken.  I think we can come up with something a lot more interesting and intuitive than the current method of "obliterate anything but bombers", so I'm holding off any votes on Fortress-related things until something is done about that.

I might start a thread about that soon(TM).

[LaughingThesaurus]

If you do that, Wingflier, would you mind including some of my ideas for a way to make Fortresses more interesting, like, an extremely heavy front for attacks with all the amenities built in? Seems like that'd be unique enough if Fortresses themselves need an overhaul.

[TechSY730]

I put, "Nothing needs to change", because I think the Fortress concept itself is currently broken.  I think we can come up with something a lot more interesting and intuitive than the current method of "obliterate anything but bombers", so I'm holding off any votes on Fortress-related things until something is done about that.

I might start a thread about that soon(TM).

Way ahead of you...sort of: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=4777

It's interesting to note that even Keith has expressed dissatisfaction with the current fortress model.

A long time ago, fortresses used to be able to load up units into themselves, however, it didn't really do anything except protect those units, and no one really used them. So it was removed. I wonder if something more interesting could of been done with that concept, especially now that we do have mechanics that alter a unit based on how much they are "transporting" (see carriers), or do something with what they are transporting (Mk. II transports).

[Hearteater]

Fortresses could get drones they can spew out.  Maybe Fighters/Bombers/Missile Fighters based on the research level of the triangle ships.

[Shrugging Khan]

Fortresses should provide supply without requiring it.

IMO. Without actually thinking about it.