Arcen Games

General Category => AI War Classic => : Pumpkin April 11, 2016, 06:03:17 AM

: Can I see the graph?
: Pumpkin April 11, 2016, 06:03:17 AM
This is a request for Arcen.

I was doing some graph generation (here (https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18128.0.html)) and I really wondered how you guys did some of the official AIW's ones. For instance, how do you make the simple and realistic, or the lattice one? How do you generate the cluster one? (The existence of the microcosm hints there is a first pass of graph generation and after that each vertex get smashed into a simple or whatever subgraph.) Also, how do you make the random holes in the honeycomb? Just a blind "pick a random vertex and delete it"? Then how do you ensure the graph is in one piece?

My main question is: am I allowed to know that? Are you, Arcen, willing to give away one of your dev-secret? I can totally understand the answer would be no.

Thanks in advance, anyway.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Draco18s April 12, 2016, 03:47:29 AM
I think a bunch of them are force-arranged.  The early map types ("simple"?) are just "randomly select two systems and connect them, repeat until fully connected."
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Pumpkin April 12, 2016, 06:51:20 AM
I think a bunch of them are force-arranged.  The early map types ("simple"?) are just "randomly select two systems and connect them, repeat until fully connected."
I doubt so because I ran tests with graphviz and the "randomly pick two" is (1) a nightmare to balance because the slightest modification of the probability immensely affects the graph and (2) AIW's simple graph is planar and very good looking. I was thinking of something like "give vertices random coordinates* and link them to their nearest neighbors without crossing an already made link** and without making links longer than X."

** but sometimes "simple" galaxies are a rarely a bit tangled.
* elegantly spreading dots on a 2D plan would be made with a "scrambled grid", but AIW's "simple" has too many holes (which is good for a strategy and gameplay standpoint).

Also, the "random pairs" make "logical" graphs that need to be displayed and untangled. "Tree" and "Snake" look like that, but "Simple" and "Lattice" don't: they're already untangled. That's why I think the later's vertices are first spread on a 2D plane and linked with their neighbors.

However, "Snake" is a very interesting case: it has some local "neighboring" pairing but some seemingly random "jumps" that look more like "Tree". My bet is that the algo recursively links a vertex with the nearest (unlinked) vertex, which cause the string to "jump" when there is no more unlinked vertices near. But looking more at it, it appears this isn't the case: just take one end or the other of the snake and see if the next star is the nearest; sooner or latter you'll see a "better choice" when the string "jumps" away.

Anyway.
I'm really curious about this and would much appreciate the least hint from Arcen.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: keith.lamothe April 12, 2016, 02:32:26 PM
None of them are force-arranged, though the detangler uses force arrangement to do its work.

I don't think there's any problem with people knowing the algorithms, but they're largely not very mathematical or logical or whatever. There's a lot of "randomly put stuff down in places that meet conditions X and Y" and "randomly connect stuff that meet conditions A and B". Some of the later ones that are more geometric are more straightforward.

Anyway, I don't have time to dig them out right now, and a simple dump of the source code would be very confusing because the logic jumps around to different methods a lot. But I'm hoping to move that logic to scripting for the re-implementation when I get there, and that will inherently make them available.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Pumpkin April 13, 2016, 06:40:48 AM
AAARHGLRG
Okay, one more reason to crave for it. Will I be able to stand the pressure and wait several months before AIW2?

Seriously:
Thanks for answering. I'm looking forward to get my hands on it.
There's a lot of "randomly put stuff down in places
You know, I know; rand-gen is basically that. It's all tricks and few logic.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: keith.lamothe April 13, 2016, 03:15:39 PM
AAARHGLRG
Okay, one more reason to crave for it. Will I be able to stand the pressure and wait several months before AIW2?
To be clear, what I'm intending to do is basically a definitive version of AI War (taking that game's design and reimplementing it in a way to get around longstanding problems like moddability, etc), not AI War 2. It's possible we might do an actual sequel, but that would be a different design.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: steelwing April 13, 2016, 06:57:18 PM
So a rerelease of AI War, then, with interface adjustments and moddability, with all the existing content present?
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: keith.lamothe April 13, 2016, 07:01:56 PM
So a rerelease of AI War, then, with interface adjustments and moddability, with all the existing content present?
In general, yes. Exactly what comes out is hard to say, since I've been rewriting it basically from scratch using our engine from earlier this year.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Aklyon April 13, 2016, 08:23:49 PM
So a rerelease of AI War, then, with interface adjustments and moddability, with all the existing content present?
In general, yes. Exactly what comes out is hard to say, since I've been rewriting it basically from scratch using our engine from earlier this year.
Considering the release notes pages all together are the size of a small book, that sounds like a ton of effort.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: keith.lamothe April 13, 2016, 08:28:20 PM
Considering the release notes pages all together are the size of a small book, that sounds like a ton of effort.
It is a lot, but bear in mind how many of those changes are superseded by later ones.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Pumpkin April 14, 2016, 06:30:50 AM
what I'm intending to do
I've been rewriting it
Do you mean "will be ***ing"? I believed SBR was going first.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: keith.lamothe April 14, 2016, 01:10:49 PM
what I'm intending to do
I've been rewriting it
Do you mean "will be ***ing"? I believed SBR was going first.
I worked on it a bit here and there towards the end of last year, so there's a working skeleton with MP and mod support and what not. But it's very skeletal, basically just the human command station, a space dock, fighters, waves of enemy fighters, and the AI command stations :)

But it is going after SBR.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: steelwing April 14, 2016, 03:37:01 PM
How will sales of the reboot be handled?  Will people who own the current version get the new one free, or will they have to pay?  If they have to buy the new version, will there be a discount for people who own the old?
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: keith.lamothe April 14, 2016, 03:40:36 PM
I don't know the details of how it will be sold, but it would be a new stand-alone product.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Teal_Blue April 14, 2016, 04:53:30 PM
this is just my two cents, but i would suggest from a business stand-point of charging for the AIWar 1A product, and giving perhaps a 10% discount to owners of the original.

Reason being, players can get AIWar original on sale and get the second at 10% off. But it doesn't have Chris and company putting in hours on a project and giving it away. Its all nice and polite for existing customers, but you don't want to lose the farm just because you want to be nice.

Anyway, I'd say an update is worth at least a DLC cost. If the work is a complete re-write of the game, then that sounds like a whole new project and its cost should reflect that to. Maybe the $19.99 that the original game charged when it was new. That is of course my opinion.

Maybe this way, the core of Atcen's followers can help keep the company alive and we still have Chris and company around to make new games that we all love.  :)

-Teal

: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Pumpkin April 15, 2016, 06:14:30 AM
I worked on it a bit here and there towards the end of last year, so there's a working skeleton with MP and mod support and what not. But it's very skeletal, basically just the human command station, a space dock, fighters, waves of enemy fighters, and the AI command stations :)

But it is going after SBR.
*.*
I try not to be overexcited, but now I really can't wait for it!

Anyway, I'd say an update is worth at least a DLC cost. If the work is a complete re-write of the game, then that sounds like a whole new project and its cost should reflect that to. Maybe the $19.99 that the original game charged when it was new. That is of course my opinion.
Yep, I totally agree on that. AI War is a niche game. I bet AIW2 (or "remastered" or "second wave" or "reprisal") won't do a massive AAA launch, but will rather widen the community on the long run. Main customers for AIW2 are AIW1 players. I feel a price between $15 and $20 even for those that already own AIW1 is fair enough.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Kahuna April 15, 2016, 07:09:17 AM
AI War with mod support.. *drools*
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: steelwing April 15, 2016, 12:33:45 PM
Anyway, I'd say an update is worth at least a DLC cost. If the work is a complete re-write of the game, then that sounds like a whole new project and its cost should reflect that to. Maybe the $19.99 that the original game charged when it was new. That is of course my opinion.
Yep, I totally agree on that. AI War is a niche game. I bet AIW2 (or "remastered" or "second wave" or "reprisal") won't do a massive AAA launch, but will rather widen the community on the long run. Main customers for AIW2 are AIW1 players. I feel a price between $15 and $20 even for those that already own AIW1 is fair enough.
That could work, certainly.  GOG.com offers AIWar "Complete Collection" (https://www.gog.com/game/ai_war_collection) for $16.99.  And no, that's not a sale price.  A rerelease with updated interface and mod support, with all that DLC built in, would easily sell for $20 or more, so $15 for owners of the old version would be quite fair.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: tadrinth May 17, 2016, 05:49:18 PM
I'd prefer an Arcen subscription that billed monthly and included all new games as they came out.  Patreon, basically.  Feels like a better fit for the hardcore ongoing support model I love so much about you guys.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Pumpkin May 18, 2016, 05:10:54 AM
I'd prefer an Arcen subscription that billed monthly and included all new games as they came out.  Patreon, basically.  Feels like a better fit for the hardcore ongoing support model I love so much about you guys.
What about long runs without new game releases? What about "finally no" stories like SBR? I think it would be a big constraint for Arcen, and I believe they have more freedom as they currently are. (I'm not speaking in their name, though. I just think...)

However, I would happily give a small monthly support on patreon or something "for free", on top of buying all Arcen's new games. However I doubt it would be a big something for Arcen. I think the current system is fine, but let's hear what Chris has to say about that.
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Mánagarmr May 18, 2016, 08:08:17 AM
I'd prefer an Arcen subscription that billed monthly and included all new games as they came out.  Patreon, basically.  Feels like a better fit for the hardcore ongoing support model I love so much about you guys.
You'd never get that to sell though, and it's generally bad practice to sell things sight unseen.

That doesn't stop AAA publishers from having their Season Pass nonsense of course...
: Re: Can I see the graph?
: Draco18s May 18, 2016, 10:55:41 AM
The way I see something like that is that I'd be alright channeling a few dollariedoos towards a company that does things I like and I want them to keep doing things I like.  I'm patreoning like a dozen artists at this point, only $1-$5 a month (mostly $1), but it's the token gesture that combined with 400 other people doing the same thing gives them enough of an income to not have to worry about day-to-day costs.

Sure, it'd be harder for a game studio that way, less frequent releases for a piece of content worth much more.  But I can see the appeal.