Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => Topic started by: sarudak on July 17, 2012, 01:29:52 pm
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So I finally finished my first game of AI war. I was playing a 6/6 with hard golems and a few other minor options on and I enjoyed the game quite a bit. It did however feel a little easy. I felt like I was chewing through AI planets one after another with very little resistance. I went for a medium/low AIP strategy and was attacking the second AI planet with something like 400 AIP.
For my next game I went to 7/7 and added fallen spire and I found the jump in difficulty to be rather jarring. I wonder why there is no difficulty levels between 6 and 7 where it seems like many players would fall? Then again maybe some of the problem came from fallen spire I'm guessing the AI response is not affected by your AIP since I only had 4 planets when retrieving the shard for the colony ship and was assaulted by hundreds upon hundreds of class IV and V ships which left me in such a weakened state the next wave took me out.
Golems are awesome but the Hard level still seems to be not enough of a tradeoff for such power (although maybe it would be different if I was on 7/7). Whereas I found spirecraft ships to be a little underwhelming in comparison.
Overall amazing game and I'm really enjoying it! :)
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So I finally finished my first game of AI war. I was playing a 6/6 with hard golems and a few other minor options on and I enjoyed the game quite a bit. It did however feel a little easy. I felt like I was chewing through AI planets one after another with very little resistance. I went for a medium/low AIP strategy and was attacking the second AI planet with something like 400 AIP.
For my next game I went to 7/7 and added fallen spire and I found the jump in difficulty to be rather jarring. I wonder why there is no difficulty levels between 6 and 7 where it seems like many players would fall? Then again maybe some of the problem came from fallen spire I'm guessing the AI response is not affected by your AIP since I only had 4 planets when retrieving the shard for the colony ship and was assaulted by hundreds upon hundreds of class IV and V ships which left me in such a weakened state the next wave took me out.
Golems are awesome but the Hard level still seems to be not enough of a tradeoff for such power (although maybe it would be different if I was on 7/7). Whereas I found spirecraft ships to be a little underwhelming in comparison.
Overall amazing game and I'm really enjoying it! :)
One thing to keep in mind about fallen spire is that the response is very much how much of the campaign you have finished. It does not matter if you have only 1 planet or if you have 119 planets with only the other AI homeworld to go, the response you get depends on how much you have done. I find that it works best to secure about 10-15 or so planets before I start I really start on the campaign to make sure that I have enough materials to work with to hold back the Exo waves that come.
Golem and Spirecraft hard however are directly linked to AI progress. The higher it gets, the faster and stronger the exo waves can come. Budget fills up based on AI Progress and Budget max is based on AI progress as well.
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First, what did you have Fallen Spire set to? 4/10?
For all the variable minor factions, 4/10 is kind of the agreed on 'standard'.
Also note that I personally consider a 7/7 game against the AI easier then a 7/7 game following the Fallen Spire campaign.
Opinions vary on how difficult enabling the different minor factions and options (including Fallen Spire) make the game, but I consider most of them to make the game harder, even if only by a little bit, when enabled.
D.
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Yeah everything was set to 4/10. So Fallen Spire is harder than a regular game? Should I be trying it on 6/6 before moving to 7/7.
Kinda what I'm hoping for is an intermediate challenge between the ease of 6/6 and the difficulty of 7/7. I suppose I could just try 7/6.... :P
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If you feel like you know your way around the game well enough, I'd suggest turning off most of the options that get you attacked (golems/spirecraft hard, hybrids, FS) and doing a basic 80-planet 7/7. That's sort of the default game that things are balanced around and it's a good place to start. Or 7/6 if you're less confident, but I imagine if you can deal with exoes on 6/6 plain 7/7 should be fine.
I'm not quite sure what the differences are, by the way, but the developers say that at 7 the AI stops making intentional mistakes and plays as well as it can.
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Really? I thought Golems made things alot easier....
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Really? I thought Golems made things alot easier....
generally
At difficulty 7, Golems (medium) and Golems (hard) generally help more than they hurt. However, once you start getting really high up in difficulty, the downsides will begin to hurt much more. (On medium, the AIP when repaired will start mattering much more, on hard, the exo-waves can get pretty nasty)
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Yeah on 6/6 the exo waves were a joke and the Golems could handle whole systems by themselves.
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Fallen Spire is pretty brutal if you're not ready for it. Once you know what's going on it's not a lot harder than the normal game, just different.
Anyway, yea, a 7/7 vanilla game would be a good step betwen 6/6 + crazy-stuff and 7/7 + crazy-stuff :)
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I went for a medium/low AIP strategy and was attacking the second AI planet with something like 400 AIP.
I think 400 is extremely high. At least vs higher difficulties it's a good idea to keep it under 150. Selecting which planets you take and which planets you neuter is part of the strategy. Try being more selective about which planets you capture and keep.
Also think about what's killing you or making your game fail. Then think how you can fix it. And don't forget to pop those Data Centers and Co-Processors and to hack the Super Terminal.
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400 is survivable on diff 7, but even there it's way higher than it needs to be.
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I don't see how we can play a "normal" game and keep the AIP under 150.
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I don't remember exactly. It might have been more like 350 and that was after I had popped the first AI command center so it was in the 200's before I did my first assault.
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I don't see how we can play a "normal" game and keep the AIP under 150.
Carefully select the planets you take and take advantage of AIP reduction stuff.
This is from my current game vs 10/10 AIs.
(http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p542/pdbKahuna/likethis.png) (http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p542/pdbKahuna/likethis.png)
EDIT: Oh and I still have 2 Data Centers and the Super Terminal left.
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You can probably count on 160 AIP worth of reduction from data centers + coprocessors, leaving the superterminal out of things. So your total "budget" for keeping under 150 is closer to 300.
But keeping under 150 isn't necessary at 7; under 250 or even 300 should be fine if you have a reasonable scenario (and defensive position).
On 9+, yea, if you see the other side of 200 you're probably going to be seeing game-over soon. Unless it's FS or something like that.
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I don't remember exactly. It might have been more like 350 and that was after I had popped the first AI command center so it was in the 200's before I did my first assault.
Ok. 200 at that point and on that difficulty is not bad. But the lower the AIP is the better. :)
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Oh I had two other questions from previous games. Is there any way for the contents of a transport to automatically aquire whatever move order the transport had when the transport is destroyed? It would be very useful to cut some of the micro from scouting.
Also is there any way to manually tell my younglings to go to the regen chamber things? It's annoying to have half my fleet at half health once I finish building a cap and no way to do anything about it.
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You can probably count on 160 AIP worth of reduction from data centers + coprocessors, leaving the superterminal out of things. So your total "budget" for keeping under 150 is closer to 300.
But keeping under 150 isn't necessary at 7; under 250 or even 300 should be fine if you have a reasonable scenario (and defensive position).
On 9+, yea, if you see the other side of 200 you're probably going to be seeing game-over soon. Unless it's FS or something like that.
This^^ qtf :)
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Oh I had two other questions from previous games. Is there any way for the contents of a transport to automatically aquire whatever move order the transport had when the transport is destroyed? It would be very useful to cut some of the micro from scouting.
Nope. Just have to pause the game and then give the orders. I don't mind that myself.
Also is there any way to manually tell my younglings to go to the regen chamber things? It's annoying to have half my fleet at half health once I finish building a cap and no way to do anything about it.
No. But you can put them in transports so they wont lose health. If you have the unlocked the better transports they will regen health so in that case yes (except you order them into the transport not the chamber thing). Also Neinzul ships are reeaally cheap so you could just build another Space Dock (remove the Neinzul ships from the other Space Dock's queue(if you want to)) which only builds the Neinzul ships. Put it on loop and make it a "ship cannon".
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Oh I had two other questions from previous games. Is there any way for the contents of a transport to automatically aquire whatever move order the transport had when the transport is destroyed? It would be very useful to cut some of the micro from scouting.
That would be a nice feature, but IMO it should be optional. A control option maybe?
Also is there any way to manually tell my younglings to go to the regen chamber things? It's annoying to have half my fleet at half health once I finish building a cap and no way to do anything about it.
Nope, one of the limitations of regen chambers. If you want manually loadable regen, you can unlock Mk. II transports, which heal the ships that are inside of them.
However, you might be interested in a a way to build younglings so that they spawn in stand-down mode (formerly low power mode) (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=3165)
Also, it would be nice if regen chambers could be put into low power mode, which would suppress a youngling's "retreat" logic to that chamber.
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I think the AIP advice here is much too conservative for a new player; 300 by the first homeworld on 7/7 is totally reasonable. Lower is better, sure, but I feel like ending the game under 200 is seriously high-level play. It's a something you have to learn to take on the high difficulties but you aren't playing wrong if you can't do it yet.
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I think the AIP advice here is much too conservative for a new player; 300 by the first homeworld on 7/7 is totally reasonable. Lower is better, sure, but I feel like ending the game under 200 is seriously high-level play. It's a something you have to learn to take on the high difficulties but you aren't playing wrong if you can't do it yet.
Seriously... I thought I was being conservative... :P
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Seriously... I thought I was being conservative... :P
Yea, hitting the first AI homeworld with a MkII Nuke was a rational and proportional response, really! :)
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Yea, hitting the first AI homeworld with a MkII Nuke was a rational and proportional response, really! :)
What? Where did you get that idea? :P
I still haven't even used a warhead although I built a few lightning ones just in case...
EDIT: Also has anyone ever won after using a mark III nuke?
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EDIT: Also has anyone ever won after using a mark III nuke?
I made an achievement for doing so (technically, for winning in a nuked galaxy, however it got that way), so I assume someone went and did it just for that ;)
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Funny, I have maybe 3 planets before I focus on Fallen Spire.
I take advantage of mobile builders, zerg units, and mobile builders though.
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Funny, I have maybe 3 planets before I focus on Fallen Spire.
I take advantage of mobile builders, zerg units, and mobile builders though.
It very much varies on the map seed and were the shards end up how much I need to take. Some games I take a single planet or 2 before I start Dallen Spire as everything is nice and lined up with a good whipping boy. Other games I need to take over a whole section of the galaxy before I am ready to have the AI really come knocking on my doors.
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By the way, does anyone play difficulties 9 to 10 with realistic map type? I always play realistic and have not yet cracked diff 8, not that I'm all that good at the game.
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By the way, does anyone play difficulties 9 to 10 with realistic map type? I always play realistic and have not yet cracked diff 8, not that I'm all that good at the game.
I play simple-hubs on difficulty 9, realistic just looks too messy and if you use a custom galaxy layout everytime you load the game you have to back and load your galaxy layout again, gets a bit annoying.
For a new player i would say 300-400 Ai progress at 6/7 is fine. Once you've got a win or two under your belt then try to get that AI progress lower.
I would actually use a MK II nuke if the AI progress wasn't so high, better just to use singles. Though nuking a hub with 18 connections with a MK II.... Always fun. MK III though... i would attempt it but you can't build anything anymore because of no energy, now if there was a way around this apart from having lots of starships pre-built.
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By the way, does anyone play difficulties 9 to 10 with realistic map type? I always play realistic and have not yet cracked diff 8, not that I'm all that good at the game.
I only play lattice these days, even on my 10/10 attempts when I make them.
It does make for a harder game in my opinion but it is doable.
Well, the 10/10 should be doable, I have not cracked that one yet.
D.
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The other thing that was really difficult with the 7/7 game I was playing is that I think one of the AIs was a one way doormaster so there were those annoying Black Hole Generators all over the place. Which would be fine if they didn't give AIP when destroyed. 10 AIP is a big hit. Are there any particular strategies to dealing with them? And why are they considered easy?
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The other thing that was really difficult with the 7/7 game I was playing is that I think one of the AIs was a one way doormaster so there were those annoying Black Hole Generators all over the place. Which would be fine if they didn't give AIP when destroyed. 10 AIP is a big hit. Are there any particular strategies to dealing with them? And why are they considered easy?
They aren't really easy, their classification is a frequent complaint ;) But they do seed extra data centers to counterbalance the AIP hits from the BHGs. BHGs are also great when captured for preventing wave-retreats that turn into threatballs.
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I've heard that but there didn't seem to be more than maybe 1 or 2 extra data centers
EDIT: Also how do people deal with Inter planetary munitions boosters? They seem like a huge pain. I can't decide whether to destroy them or not.
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BHGs aren't that bad, just dont shoot them, they don't cause ai progress if you capture the planet.
munitions boosters cause headaches. debends on situation.
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Also how do people deal with Inter planetary munitions boosters? They seem like a huge pain. I can't decide whether to destroy them or not.
Painfully. Very painfully. There is no good way. Bypass them and their surrounding systems entirely or get on your gimp suit, you're going to take it one way or another from them.
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To mention a point from the OP, adding a 6.3 and a 6.6 difficulty may be a neat idea, where the AI starts getting slightly less and less sloppy (along with the normal increases to wave size and such)
There would still be a small spike in difficulty between 6.6 and 7, but it would at least let newer players train against and learn how to deal with the tricks the AI at 7+ uses without having to face its full "trickiness" all at once.
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I think the AIP advice here is much too conservative for a new player; 300 by the first homeworld on 7/7 is totally reasonable. Lower is better, sure, but I feel like ending the game under 200 is seriously high-level play. It's a something you have to learn to take on the high difficulties but you aren't playing wrong if you can't do it yet.
Seriously... I thought I was being conservative... :P
Hmmm, I'm attempting to finally complete a 7/7 game and I'm about 10 hours in with an AIP of almost 700! Admittedly I've taken around 20 planets but I still haven't located any of the homeworlds so a final assault is hardly imminent. The comments in this thread are making me nervous! :)
The last exo-wave left 1500 high mark units camped in a black hole machine world right on my border, but one mkII lightning warhead later and I now have a fairly defensible system with an intact BHM and mkIII Ion Cannon.
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If you are finding 7/7 a little rough, 7/6 is a good alternative. Nothing says the two AIs need to be the same difficulty.
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I'm surprised no-one's mentioned some of the obvious reasons the OP might have found a huge jump from 6 to 7. You mentioned One-Way Doormaster, but you haven't said what the other AIs you fought were. AI types make a huge difference to difficulty. Also, randomness plays a significant role. For example, some bonus fleet ships, such as Zenith Bombards and Eye Bots, make terrifying unlocks for the AI. Others, not so much.
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For example, some bonus fleet ships, such as Zenith Bombards and Eye Bots, make terrifying unlocks for the AI. Others, not so much.
Too true. The last game I started the AIs first wave was a wave of vampire claws... That ended my game early. Everytime I built a command center and moved my fleet in they swooped in and destroyed it. They ignored shields and everything. Super obnoxious!
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Too true. The last game I started the AIs first wave was a wave of vampire claws... That ended my game early. Everytime I built a command center and moved my fleet in they swooped in and destroyed it. They ignored shields and everything. Super obnoxious!
GravityGarlic Turrets :)
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Gravity Turret + Lightning Turrets = dead Vampires. Use a Tachyon Drone or Scout Starship to detect them if you don't unlock the Tachyon Turret. Of course if you don't find out about the Vampires until too late, you are hosed.
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Military com stations counter melee hard. Doubly so for the claw.
I for one am glad claws are to be feared now.
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In my book if you can avoid MK III waves you are fine, if not you will struggle, and IV is the dead zone.
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Gravity Turret + Lightning Turrets = dead Vampires. Use a Tachyon Drone or Scout Starship to detect them if you don't unlock the Tachyon Turret. Of course if you don't find out about the Vampires until too late, you are hosed.
Huh... I've never used gravity turrets and i didn't even know that Scout Starships could reveal cloaked ships!
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Gravity Turret + Lightning Turrets = dead Vampires. Use a Tachyon Drone or Scout Starship to detect them if you don't unlock the Tachyon Turret. Of course if you don't find out about the Vampires until too late, you are hosed.
Huh... I've never used gravity turrets and i didn't even know that Scout Starships could reveal cloaked ships!
While I know players use it, I rarely hear it because this fact is true.
If I am facing stealth units in the AI arsenal I get at Military III stations. These stations counter ALL cloaking on your planet. All the problems that come with stealth are blown away with the military station, and the damage boost is a life saver (2x the damage)
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Gravity Turret + Lightning Turrets = dead Vampires. Use a Tachyon Drone or Scout Starship to detect them if you don't unlock the Tachyon Turret. Of course if you don't find out about the Vampires until too late, you are hosed.
Huh... I've never used gravity turrets and i didn't even know that Scout Starships could reveal cloaked ships!
While I know players use it, I rarely hear it because this fact is true.
If I am facing stealth units in the AI arsenal I get at Military III stations. These stations counter ALL cloaking on your planet. All the problems that come with stealth are blown away with the military station, and the damage boost is a life saver (2x the damage)
Agreed, but 9k in resources to throw at a command station usually doesn't occur to late game so it's not part of most strategies. You either have to build it into your strategy very early in your intent or you're usually setting them up to deal with core-world assault fallout.
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True, but I rush for a III station regardless. The massive increase in resources, even with a MK III military, is just too good for me. I forgo harvestor upgrades mind you, but the k others devote to harvestors I invest in a station. The only question for me is do I invest in military stations of econ stations. I don't invest in both.
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LOL
No more AI War for me today. I was reading this topic and pressed P to unpause. Then I scrolled to read more and "paused" again. Sleepy time!
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Dude that's awesome. I'm going to start doing that to all my internets. At any rate I'm going to go now to organize a deep strike against the New York Times four tabs away.
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You paused the internet?! Please be careful, I was in the middle of something important.
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You paused the internet?! Please be careful, I was in the middle of something important.
http://www.turnofftheinternet.com/
You mean you didn't realize it was actually a turn-based model?
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Actually in the late 70s my mom got a student job at a research institute in LA where she had to back up the internet every night and restart it.