Author Topic: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices  (Read 15657 times)

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2013, 05:58:23 PM »
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The thing is, if core turrets just didn't cost energy, you wouldn't even be making a decision. I've already said this. Making them free is going to result in a whole lot of mindless blobbing of turrets.
Yes, I know, but I don't think that's a problem. I just happen to see "mindless turret spam" as the reward for capturing the controller.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2013, 05:58:41 PM »
I don't see how people have serious energy problems. I get to a point in my games where I run out of knowledge to unlock things far sooner than I run out of energy. You're only running out of energy if you're running like 6 planet games or something, surely. If you're going ultra-low AIP, then you'll have ultra low energy, and an awful lot of complaints about energy cost. The thing is, if core turrets just didn't cost energy, you wouldn't even be making a decision. I've already said this. Making them free is going to result in a whole lot of mindless blobbing of turrets.

Well, if you are running ultra low aip, then you choke pointing solves the energy problem.

If in some situations you can get away with no chokepoints, but in all situations you can get away with chokepoints, then chokepoints are superior.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2013, 06:03:52 PM »
From my point of view - if I need to go out of my way (rare cases where controller would be where I want to be discarded.. rng and stuff) to capture one of these and need to defend it - it's not worth it.
I will need to pay AIP for planet, some of my defensive tools with caps to defend it and for that I will gain some potentially nice turrets for which I will still need to pay and have energy. Unless the planet in question has 4/4 resources or something... I don't think it calculates favorably. Especially if it would need addition of warp command or gate raiding  so that planet can be protected from waves.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2013, 06:04:43 PM »
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If in some situations you can get away with no chokepoints, but in all situations you can get away with chokepoints, then chokepoints are superior.
I wasn't disputing this, rather saying that core turret controllers do not add to the chokepoint "problem," but help it.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2013, 06:11:40 PM »
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If in some situations you can get away with no chokepoints, but in all situations you can get away with chokepoints, then chokepoints are superior.
I wasn't disputing this, rather saying that core turret controllers do not add to the chokepoint "problem," but help it.

They don't at their core though: Because they still favor chokepoints.

If they are ungainly expensive, and you are playing at the limit, then chokepoints are best. If you don't have the energy, then chokepoints are best. Even if you don't have to, it is still more efficient to use chokepoints.

It does not help non chokepoints, because chokepoints still benefit the most. The only way to prevent this is to make it so that you can more benefit from taking advantage of their planet caps, which inherently making the costs, if not free, ridiculously cheap.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2013, 06:17:30 PM »
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They don't at their core though: Because they still favor chokepoints.

If they are ungainly expensive, and you are playing at the limit, then chokepoints are best. If you don't have the energy, then chokepoints are best. Even if you don't have to, it is still more efficient to use chokepoints.
Chokepoints being better than non-choke even in the presence of controllers does not mean that controllers benefit chokepoints.

The controllers are more effective the more systems experience combat. No-choke means that more systems experience combat. So while the the controllers do benefit choke games, they benefit non-choke more.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2013, 06:25:55 PM »
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They don't at their core though: Because they still favor chokepoints.



The controllers are more effective the more systems experience combat. No-choke means that more systems experience combat. So while the the controllers do benefit choke games, they benefit non-choke more.

They don't, though, if resources are limited, or you don't have the energy.

if turrets are expensive, then expensive turrets are not beneficial unless you minimize turret casualties. And, even then, minimizing causalities provides resources for more frequent attacks. Hence, chokepoints.

If your energy is limited, then chokepoints are better. Even if energy is not strictly limitted, excess energy provides a buffer. Hence, chokepoints.

At best, non chokepoints drawbacks are counteracted because you can place more. But in other situations, chokepoints are favored.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 06:27:28 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline Toranth

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2013, 07:04:55 PM »
I really don't understand what you mean. You bring up that you can't use full caps on every planet, yet imply that for energy costs it is the same as MK I turrets. You say energy is the limiter, yet that in of itself doesn't favor chokepoints.
<...>
It is inherently preferring choke points.
What I was trying to do was put numbers to resource cost, energy useage, and damage.  Where a 4-cap of turrets is as powerful as a Fortress Mk II, it costs twice the M+C and half the Energy.  Energy being the ongoing cost, this is a net benefit.
On a per-turret basis, Core Turrets currently cost the same energy as a base Mk I turret of the same type.  A Mk I Needler is 200 energy, a Mk V Needler is 200 energy.  Lightning Turrets are 800 Energy, Mk I or Mk V.  But, because Core Turrets are per-planet cap and you are expected to build on multiple planets, the Energy cost is important to re-balance for the expected use, rather than re-using the Energy value that comes from the hard cap of the Mk I turret.
If you notice, I DO agree that the Core Turrets are perhaps too expensive right now.  I just think the Energy cost is more important than the M+C.


Finally, I agree with Faulty:
Quote from: chemical_art
They don't at their core though: Because they still favor chokepoints.
The controllers are more effective the more systems experience combat. No-choke means that more systems experience combat. So while the the controllers do benefit choke games, they benefit non-choke more.
Core Turrets provide relatively little gain to your chokepoint.  However, they provide a MASSIVE relative boost in defensive power for your other protectables.  ASC, FacIV, Fabs, etc, can be protected from casual combat easily, WITHOUT the necessity of making sure that every single capturable is behind your chokepoint.

On a Snake, Maze, X, or other Choke-point-heavy maps, you can easily go forth finding little use for Core Turrets.  On Simple, or any other more connected map type, the Core Turrets will allow you to build protection without being forced to capture unwanted systems just to protect the few you DO want.  On Highly-connected maps, like Crosshatch, Realistic, or Wheel, playing with a Chokepoint is almost impossible, and the Core Turrets give you a chance of actually keeping you systems alive.


Chokepoints being better than non-choke even in the presence of controllers does not mean that controllers benefit chokepoints.
If your energy is limited, then chokepoints are better. Even if energy is not strictly limitted, excess energy provides a buffer. Hence, chokepoints.
It it trivial to point out that as long as you have even 1 unit of any type that does not have a per-planet cap, chokepointing will be better.  But, as Faulty and I have pointed out that while Core Turrets provide a gain to choke-points, they provide relatively more gain to non-chokepoint worlds.  This makes the non-choke systems more survivable, and non-choke strategies/maps more playable at higher difficulties.  I think this is a good thing.

What would you prefer to happen with Core Turrets, if you don't like them as is?

Offline chemical_art

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2013, 07:10:17 PM »


What would you prefer to happen with Core Turrets, if you don't like them as is?

The "cost" needs to not be in form of M+C or energy at all, but in a different manner.

It needs to be in a manner that is unabashedly bad for choke-points, but not so bad for defense in depth.

Unfortunately, the method of doing this walks a very, very fine line. It needs to be in the form of an EMP that neutralizes defenses (which the core turrets should be immune to), but is one shot per "attack" meaning it neutralizes the first planet, but not subsequent ones.

Again, I'll repeat, this is a very, very fine line. But at the moment I can think of no other method that truly favors defense-in-depth over chokepoints.
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2013, 07:57:58 PM »
I like what Keith said, personally, about doubling the cap and halving the cost of core turrets. They should still cost energy, and should always cost energy. I don't care about what happens to the m/c costs because I'm not great at equalizing my economy anyway. I just sort of let my money cap, then I turn on a merc dock for a couple minutes to drain it all. Here's the thing then. You're getting more firepower for less cost, and you are more easily able to spread the turrets around, but unless you're on ultra-low AIP, you won't be able to paint them all over the place unabashedly because of energy costs.

Maybe the AI should get something to combat choke points. Combine a buff and push towards managing multiple fronts, while giving the AI tools to actually sneak around your chokepoint. Perhaps, if it's sent enough waves to the same planet in a row, it decides "You know what? You get cross planet waves from other warpgates that try to find other points, because this is not working." Even if you do have a perfect chokepoint, the cross planet wave would just sit there and wait and the waves would accumulate until you get a really big attack that DOES think it could break your defenses. If not that, then something. Maybe an AI plot where the AI can begin construction of a warp-distortion warhead that's immune to most things and just rushes to get behind lines... and then when it detonates, creates an indestructible exo-galactic wormhole where it exploded.

Offline Tridus

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2013, 08:09:53 PM »
I like what Keith said, personally, about doubling the cap and halving the cost of core turrets. They should still cost energy, and should always cost energy. I don't care about what happens to the m/c costs because I'm not great at equalizing my economy anyway. I just sort of let my money cap, then I turn on a merc dock for a couple minutes to drain it all. Here's the thing then. You're getting more firepower for less cost, and you are more easily able to spread the turrets around, but unless you're on ultra-low AIP, you won't be able to paint them all over the place unabashedly because of energy costs.

I said that. :D I do care about the m/c cost because it takes time when things are so expensive, and time is valuable. But they're really expensive right now, and if Keith wants to see them more than on chokepoints, the cost needs to reflect that. They're really pricy right now.

Chokepoints are always going to be great, and I don't think this is ever going to single handily prevent that. It's a basic strategic fact that if you can get the enemies to attack where you want them to, you've got an edge. But these can help other systems quite a lot.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2013, 11:03:53 PM »
Well, I still think you could give the AI toys so that it can attempt to break chokepoints in a way that doesn't revolve around sheer firepower. The AI's supposed to be exceedingly smart, clever, and well armed. Why would it logically bash its head against an impenetrable wall?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2013, 11:09:10 PM »
Well, I still think you could give the AI toys so that it can attempt to break chokepoints in a way that doesn't revolve around sheer firepower. The AI's supposed to be exceedingly smart, clever, and well armed. Why would it logically bash its head against an impenetrable wall?
Because quite a few players react very negatively (and sometimes emotionally) to ideas like the AI getting to build something that lets it send waves 1 hop (or more) deep, or the AI building H/Ks when it detects an impenetrable chokepoint (that's what H/Ks were originally put in the game for), etc :)

In other words, while there is a community sentiment towards "make chokepoints no longer optimal" (or at least less obviously optimal), there's a much bigger sentiment towards "don't you dare mess with my chokepoints!" ;)

Not to say we can't add options that strive for a different balance, though.  That's kind of what Beachheads are (and to some extent Astro Trains), though those are mostly "zero to death in 12 seconds flat" right now, which is something I want to address when there aren't more pressing issues.
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2013, 12:02:56 AM »
I think that's the part where normal developers just do what they can to bring the strategies more in line with each other and largely try to avoid community opinion. I haven't seen the arcen way handle this sort of thing before. That said I do my best to avoid using chokepoints strictly because it's that one-stop game-winning defense. I'd be the kind of commander who, during a  war, throws out advantages because it would be more fun. And this, my friends, is why I shouldn't be allowed to play strategy games.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2013, 09:04:29 AM »
I think that's the part where normal developers just do what they can to bring the strategies more in line with each other and largely try to avoid community opinion.
Which might just possibly be appropriate, if I had nearly as much time to play the game as y'all did :)
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