Author Topic: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices  (Read 15584 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2013, 02:28:17 PM »
Quick question: are the core turret controllers helping at all with the showdown distributed defense?  Kind of the idea was that you now had these things letting you put extra defenses up all over the place, etc.

Though with that huge of a superweapon multiplier, I'm guessing they were just spitting into a firestorm.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2013, 02:40:37 PM »
Quick question: are the core turret controllers helping at all with the showdown distributed defense?  Kind of the idea was that you now had these things letting you put extra defenses up all over the place, etc.

Though with that huge of a superweapon multiplier, I'm guessing they were just spitting into a firestorm.
Two different cases.
In the chokepoint games, they were good on the chokepoint world.  On any other system, the Counter-wave was enough to overwhelm / ignore the Core Turrets and proceed to destroy the Command Station before the turrets could kill the wave.

In the Honeycomb game, I had only Spirecraft enabled, so the multiplier was only 3, I believe.  Beyond that, I was trying to keep AIP low, so I only took 1 Core Turret Controller that happened to be on an ARS world.  Flak Turrets, even Mk V, just don't do much against Exowaves.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2013, 02:46:41 PM »
In the chokepoint games, they were good on the chokepoint world.  On any other system, the Counter-wave was enough to overwhelm / ignore the Core Turrets and proceed to destroy the Command Station before the turrets could kill the wave.
Fair enough.

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In the Honeycomb game, I had only Spirecraft enabled, so the multiplier was only 3, I believe.  Beyond that, I was trying to keep AIP low, so I only took 1 Core Turret Controller that happened to be on an ARS world.  Flak Turrets, even Mk V, just don't do much against Exowaves.
Hmm, ok.

One thing I think the rules encourage here is actually ramping up to a relatively high AIP shortly before the showdown, so you can grab stuff like extra turret controllers and so on.  The waves are still AIP-based but the exos are not, and while the "middle" CPA is AIP based, the last one is effectively not because it's supposed to just free everything  (thanks for the note that it wasn't actually doing so, will see what I can do about that, though I imagine you'll understand that it wouldn't be a good idea to clear out all the guard posts because of counter posts).  And actually pulling as much of the CPA-fuel ships as you can handle in that "middle" CPA will diminish the CPA ships available for the final one, thus giving you somewhat more breathing room to get at the GSCs before you die.

I could actually make the waves themselves based on a "static AIP" like 300 or 400, and the idea is that the AI is just responding with whatever it can (given its other commitments and that the milky way isn't necessarily vital to it) rather than its estimation of your threat level.
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Offline Vyndicu

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 02:50:04 PM »
I faced the GSC myself on a 1/1 AI and X map to just see what it is like. OUCH.

I think it would be VERY funny if you manage to pull off Fallen Spire Exogalactic Transceiver AND the showdown device counter at the exact same time. Too much firepower being thrown around? *Hint* Just sit back and watch the firecracker if you manage to pull it off. I may try that just for amuse in my current alpha campaign if I find the time later on.

Is there anything that help you survive against flame waves ammo type? Something like counter-sniper turret? If not then I can still find some strategy that might work but it would require lot of planning everything including where your HW is. Perhaps heavy usage of younglings/swarmer to saturation GSC?

I feel that you need a very strong economy to maintain constant dps on a GSC if your chokehold is insufficient however by then you are very likely dead in the water. So I feel we need at least a way to build per-planet turret without having to take and hold. (Think mk 1 version, can unlock mk2/mk3, of mk 5 turret per-planet we currently have). I don't know if you will have time to implement per-planet turrets that you can build without core turret controller.

Right now I see only several sure fire way to win against GSC and I don't think I can keep myself alive long enough to depend on them every game or even pray to the RNG god for a Hail Mary play.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 02:55:52 PM »
Is there anything that help you survive against flame waves ammo type?
Right now I think you could totally cheese the GSCs by having a full cap of all marks of protector-starship fully fitted with energy-shot-counter modules.  Effectively reducing the GSC's DPS to zero ;)

But the protector starship won't be able to do that after I get around to making it sane, as no one bonus type should be able to hard-counter the strongest ship in the game.


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So I feel we need at least a way to build per-planet turret without having to take and hold.
Bear in mind that you can take the controllers, build the turrets everywhere you want them, and those turrets will keep working even after the controller dies, you just can't rebuild them if they die.
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Offline Vyndicu

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2013, 03:04:26 PM »
Rebuilding them isn't the issue at least for me. What if I want need an anti-bomber turret everywhere against a mad bomber AI type and I can not afford to dilute my chokehold by taking away turrets from there?

What if I need laser turret for some crazy reason, lot of polycrystal and super-heavy hull, on each planets and I already explore everywhere and only have lightning controller available? I will just have to take away polycrystal and super-heavy firepower bonus away from my chokehold which is one of the main reason why controller/minifort were introduced.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2013, 03:06:31 PM »
Rebuilding them isn't the issue at least for me. What if I want need an anti-bomber turret everywhere against a mad bomber AI type and I can not afford to dilute my chokehold by taking away turrets from there?
But if you have the Laser Turret Controller then you can put those laser turrets everywhere.  If you aren't needing to rebuild them, then that would be a full solution even if you later lost the controller, no?

If you needed still more, well, I guess you could hope for a Missile Turret Controller too :)
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Offline Vyndicu

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2013, 03:18:36 PM »
Yes yes. Let me put it another way.

I am viewing mk 5 controller turrets as rare bonus that you can gain much like MK 5 fabricators for starship/fleetship. But unlike those fabricator, turret controller do NOT have a mk 1-4 variation for per-planet turret cap. Heck I think we only have mk 4 turret for the heavy beam line but then again they are unique low cap turrets.

Sorry to go so far off topic!

I don't want to rely on a bonus starship that I may not ever have a chance to get through map generation RNG or via hacking ARS as the only way to mitigation the firepower that GSC has.

Offline Toranth

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2013, 03:40:01 PM »
One thing I think the rules encourage here is actually ramping up to a relatively high AIP shortly before the showdown, so you can grab stuff like extra turret controllers and so on.  The waves are still AIP-based but the exos are not, and while the "middle" CPA is AIP based, the last one is effectively not because it's supposed to just free everything
I think you are correct - now that I know that Exowaves (the hardest to 'control') are not AIP based, my AIP concerns drop dramatically.  So what if the waves are bigger, if I can channel them to my chokepoint?

(thanks for the note that it wasn't actually doing so, will see what I can do about that, though I imagine you'll understand that it wouldn't be a good idea to clear out all the guard posts because of counter posts).
  :o *gack* Um, yeah.  Let's not kill every Counter Post in the galaxy simultaneously, while also jumping the AIP through the roof.


I could actually make the waves themselves based on a "static AIP" like 300 or 400, and the idea is that the AI is just responding with whatever it can (given its other commitments and that the milky way isn't necessarily vital to it) rather than its estimation of your threat level.
A large part of me leans towards this.  It encourages the player to get the necessary goodies, to do all needed gate-raiding, etc, without worrying too much about "Will this 5 AIP help me more than it'll hurt me?"
On the other hand, with the map and the right cheese, I suspect some people could complete the Showdown at less than 100 AIP, by taking advantage of the lower wave sizes, which is an option that would go away.
I think this'd be good in the long run, like the same way Fallen Spire forces the player to clear out AI worlds.




Rebuilding them isn't the issue at least for me. What if I want need an anti-bomber turret everywhere against a mad bomber AI type and I can not afford to dilute my chokehold by taking away turrets from there?
But if you have the Laser Turret Controller then you can put those laser turrets everywhere.  If you aren't needing to rebuild them, then that would be a full solution even if you later lost the controller, no?

If you needed still more, well, I guess you could hope for a Missile Turret Controller too :)
I'll admit to thinking the same thing as Vyndicu here.  When the only Controllers on the map are Flak and Lightning, and the AI isn't using swarmers, I find myself disappointed.

As an idea:  What if the controllers did not specify a type, but just allowed the player to build X Mk V turrets per system?  Owning two controllers would allow for 2*X, etc.
Alternate:  Each controller allows for a much smaller number of EACH turret to built.  Instead of 24 Missiles, it'd be 4 of each type.

Finally, about Core Turret Controllers:  Are we going to get Mk V Grav turrets?  Mk V Tractor turrets (Widow Turrets?)?  Mk V HBC (drool)?  Implosion Turrets?  (Yes, I'm jealous of the Dire Guardians).

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2013, 03:51:58 PM »
On the other hand, with the map and the right cheese, I suspect some people could complete the Showdown at less than 100 AIP, by taking advantage of the lower wave sizes, which is an option that would go away.
Yes, it would, but honestly I think that'd be kind of schizophrenic of the feature anyway: the whole point is that you're leaving the guerilla warfare thing by the side and going for the throat.  But it's different than the "kick down the front door" approach of FS because instead of just bringing enough "big bleeping capital ships" to face down the AI's full force, you're disrupting its ability to haul in reinforcements so that you can confront what's left face-to-face.

So doing that with minimal AIP is really not the point.  Honestly, one of the weaknesses of the current implementation is that it really feels like once you actually start the devices up that timer should never stop: it should be 30-ish minutes (the ish coming from the flight time an unladen GSC from AI HW to your HW) max until win or lose.  Or alternatively if you can't hold the devices the charging timer starts but the AI continues coming at you full-bore because surely now it knows what's going on.

But it seemed like folks would want the thing to just cut short if they couldn't hold devices during the charging, rather than "if I can't do this at any stage, it's game over"... but I'm still on the fence.  Obviously if activation is irrevocable either way then there needs to be some more obvious "push this button to start the showdown" step, which would be good.

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As an idea:  What if the controllers did not specify a type, but just allowed the player to build X Mk V turrets per system?  Owning two controllers would allow for 2*X, etc.
Alternate:  Each controller allows for a much smaller number of EACH turret to built.  Instead of 24 Missiles, it'd be 4 of each type.
Hmm, maybe we could do that, yea.  The current setup seems to offer more variety instead of "have more of everything you already have", but this might be more generally valuable.

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Finally, about Core Turret Controllers:  Are we going to get Mk V Grav turrets?  Mk V Tractor turrets (Widow Turrets?)?  Mk V HBC (drool)?  Implosion Turrets?  (Yes, I'm jealous of the Dire Guardians).
Not sure about the HBC, but the others will come eventually, though it may be another expansion ;)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2013, 04:14:34 PM »
I'd meant to ask about:

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Looking a little closer reveals the source of my confusion:  It's based on Total AIP, not Effective AIP.  Waves didn't used to work that way, did they?  Normal non-SD waves are doing it, too.

That would definitely be a bug, for both SD and non-SD.  Is the log telling you that it's using a number which is total AIP (according to what your screen says in-game) instead of effective?
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2013, 04:23:54 PM »
Actually a "Do this and the Showdown is on NO MATTER WHAT" option might be best in this case. That way you wouldn't have to hold the device worlds, just your HW. Similar to the finale in the FS campaign. Yes this would eliminate the distributed defenses aspect of it, but it would allow you to keep the difficulty of it just as high as it is. I also think that hardcoding the AIP of the Showdown waves to 400 is the right idea. You make it into a 30ish minute endgame. Either the AI kills you or you win. Yes this does mean the players can control where the waves will hit, even the CPA and Exo ones. But it also allows you to throw the most extreme force at the player as well.

It also makes sense from the little bit of lore I have seen so far. The Humans do NOT really understand what they are doing, they are basically just turning these things on and hoping they don't explode. It makes sense that they don't have any way to turn them back off once they start it up. I would also give an AIP Floor boost for each device world that is under human control. This wont affect a high AIP game, but it will prevent an low AIP cheese attempt at the Showdown since that goes against the theme of the Showdown. Make it so that you have to control all 4 worlds at the same time to start it as well. Makes sense IMO that they all need to be turned on at once. Again, its basically humanity throwing a switch and hoping for the best.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2013, 04:27:33 PM »
Actually a "Do this and the Showdown is on NO MATTER WHAT" option might be best in this case. That way you wouldn't have to hold the device worlds, just your HW.
That's actually a problem to me, though: it's supposed to require distributed defense for 30 minutes.  The idea being that if you have enough local dominance to pull that off, we can go ahead and get this over with and call it a win (or massive-attack-induced loss, but at least you won't have been bored).  If you can't hold those four planets for those 30 minutes then it's not time to give you the shot at winning.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2013, 06:04:44 PM »
I haven't had a chance to play with turret controllers yet but if they can get killed easily it means that you need to hold on to more spread out defense. Turrets die.. I guess that core ones too. Unless turrets once built will be rebuilt from remains even if controller dies?

Anything that needs distributed defense is not something thats encouraged in game currently. All the uber choke points will confirm that.
If I understand correctly wins used 1-2 choke points. And from what I understand you expect us to have distributed defense. Aka.. idea didn't really work.

Maybe turret controllers should be "rescuable" and after escorting them to your H/W you could somehow integrate them into home command.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: **Spoiler-Heavy** Discussion of the Showdown Devices
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2013, 06:06:49 PM »
That's actually a problem to me, though: it's supposed to require distributed defense for 30 minutes.  The idea being that if you have enough local dominance to pull that off, we can go ahead and get this over with and call it a win (or massive-attack-induced loss, but at least you won't have been bored).  If you can't hold those four planets for those 30 minutes then it's not time to give you the shot at winning.


Hmm... well... touche... Cant really counter that point. I have not done enough testing to come up with any thing else either. I've not gotten to do more than get 1-2 of those devices before either you put out a new patch... Which you just did... or I get killed.