Author Topic: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)  (Read 2255 times)

Offline ArnaudB

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Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« on: June 23, 2014, 03:18:45 PM »
Hello, after a game where which involved quite a few swarmer hulls available on both I am really wondering what is the point of swarmers. Strategically-wise.

To be clear, I am excluding Enclaves, torpedo frigates as well as blade spamwer and the like. They fit their own niche. Similarly youngling fit a particular niche.

However, what about autocanons and the like? So far the one which I've found most useful is the attractor, due to its remarkable ability to protect starships and heavy ships from lasers. Yet in many games I find myself underwhelmed by swarmers. I do use them when available, but I almost never unlock higher mark when I have them, or pursue their mark five fabricators.

Between the many eyes, the ions canons, the parasites and the large use AI missiles frigates, I find most often them inconvenient. Starships and insta-kill/reclamation-immune ships just seem more useful.

Thoughts? How do you use them best?

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2014, 05:06:40 PM »
So, if you're excluding enclaves, LTFs, and similar, does that include younglings and other neinzul?

Online Toranth

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 05:21:17 PM »
So, if you're excluding enclaves, LTFs, and similar, does that include younglings and other neinzul?
I think he's just asking about Laser Gatlings, Autocannon Minipods, and Raiders.  I'd personally include the niche-use Infiltrator and EtherJet as well.  The High-cap/low-hp units, in other words.

Younglings tend to have normal caps, good HP, and good damage to make up for the low lifespan.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2014, 05:46:59 PM »
They're excellent for making slow-firing but high-power AI unity waste their shots. Other than that, I'm no fan.
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Offline Bognor

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2014, 09:08:31 PM »
Note Laser Gatlings and Autocannon Minipods just had their DPS values buffed in 7.032, by 33% and 43%, respectively.  Raiders and Etherjets were both buffed in June 2013.
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Online Toranth

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2014, 09:48:46 PM »
Note Laser Gatlings and Autocannon Minipods just had their DPS values buffed in 7.032, by 33% and 43%, respectively.  Raiders and Etherjets were both buffed in June 2013.
Oh, indeed, the swarmers have some of the highest cap-DPS of any of the fleetships.  Unfortunately, they also have lots of other problems that make them less effective in practice than the pure numbers would project.
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Offline motai

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 07:46:01 PM »
best use is disposable fleet. their low cost fast buildtime makes them one of the most replaceable fleet caps out there. both in time and cost. minimizes retaliation fleets. you do need to avoid being outnumbered but when they bring their numbers to focus they will destroy and defeat in detail larger forces. so keep them on the move which is the biggest trick to using them(i.e. hit and run)

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 05:33:20 AM »
if %shipcap% GEQ 120 (
   set /A class=swarmer
)

Bad Swarmers
Laser Gatling
8*272*1,8=3916,8 cap DPS
394*272=107168 cap Health
200*272=54400 cap Metal cost

Autocannon
8*196*3,2=5017,6 cap DPS (+bad damage multipliers)
546*196=107016 cap Health
160*196=31360 cap Metal cost

Attractor Drone
76*196/10*2,4=3575,04 cap DPS
550*196=107800 cap Health
300*196=58800 cap Metal cost

Borderline bad
Tachyon MicroFighter
24*144/3*6=6912 cap DPS
1000*144=144000 cap Health
500*144=72000 cap Metal cost
These are too expensive and everything these things do Bulletproof Fighters do better. Otherwise good.
(Bulletproof Fighter
52*88/4*6=6864 cap DPS
2240*88=197120 cap Health
890*88=78320 cap Metal cost)


EtherJet
32*144/3*4=6144 cap DPS
690*144=99360 cap Health
180*144=25920 cap Metal cost
These things need more health because they're supposed to Tractor stuff which means they will always be in range.

Good Swarmers
Infiltrator
28*160/3*4=5973,333 cap DPS
930*160=148800 cap Health
200*160=32000 cap Metal cost

Space Plane
72*172/9*3,2=4403,2 cap DPS (low DPS but very good multipliers and Range>Radar Dampening + Cloaking)
292*172=50224 cap Health (very low health but Range>Radar Dampening + Cloaking)
300*172=51600 cap Metal cost

Teleport Raider
68*160/8*4=5440 cap DPS
620*160=99200 cap Health
240*160=38400 cap Metal cost

Anti Armor (this thing is a beast)
64*120/5*5=7680 cap DPS
1240*120=148800 cap Health
660*120=79200 cap Metal cost

Raider (this thing is a beast)
20*120/2*5=6000 cap DPS
1240*120=148800 cap Health
340*120=40800 cap Metal cost


Compared to the triangle ships
Fighter
40*96/4*6=5760 cap DPS
1650*96=158400 cap health
400*96=38400 cap Metal cost

Bomber
96*96/12*6=4608 cap DPS
1560*96=149760 cap Health
1600*96=153600 cap Metal cost

Missile Frigate
96*96/10*6=5529,6 cap DPS
1560*96=149760 cap Health
1200*96=115200 cap Metal cost


Compared to some of the low ship cap ships
Spire Railcluster
54*20*5/4*5=6750 cap DPS
33500*5=167500 cap Health
18000*5=90000 cap Metal Cost

Zenith Bombardment Ship
1820*24/30*2=2912 cap DPS
3840*24=92160 cap Health
8800*24=211200 cap Metal Cost

Sniper
292*20/9*6=3893,333 cap DPS
2540*20=50800 cap Health
3400*20=68000 cap Metal Cost

Raptor
80*48/3*5=6400 cap DPS
1560*48=74880 cap Health
1120*48=53760 cap Metal Cost

Teleport Battle Station
28*8*24/4*2,4=3225,6 cap DPS
4000*24=96000 cap Health
2000*24=48000 cap Metal Cost

Zenith Electric Bomber
758*19/12*3,2=3840,533 cap DPS
5200*19=98800 cap Health
4200*19=79800 cap Metal Cost


And once again: generally low health high ship cap ships are worse than high health low ship cap ships because the low health ships die faster which reduced their overall DPS. For the same reason.. high damage long reload time ships are better than low damage short reload time ships. Because of this.. low health high ship cap ships and low damage short reload time ships "need to be made "better" than high health low ship cap ships and high damage long reload time ships"

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:28:02 AM by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
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Offline motai

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 08:40:04 AM »
i notice kahuna you didn't put in the cap cost in metal any chance you could add that to your comparison?

Offline Salamander

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2014, 04:41:09 PM »
Not surprised at the numbers and assessment that Kahuna provided. I know back when lotS was in test, I had mentioned that the Autocannons had some problems and they got buffed but they still are not that effective overall. The other bad ones are no real shock either, just that I always have loved the Minipods and so notice their deficiencies more than the others.

Infiltrators are mean little zoggers that can really play havoc with FF protected installations, and the other good ones certainly can perform excellently as well.

Also this is so true:

And once again: generally low health high ship cap ships are worse than high health low ship cap ships because the low health ships die faster which reduced their overall DPS. For the same reason.. high damage long reload time ships are better than low damage short reload time ships. Because of this.. low health high ship cap ships and low damage short reload time ships "need to be made "better" than high health low ship cap ships and high damage long reload time ships"

Large groups of fast-firing small ships are fun to use but since they die so much faster they rapidly lose their effectiveness whereas a bigger ship with more health hangs around longer. It's much like when we used to show new people how to use small fleets in Star Fleet Battles and they would fixate on the biggest enemy ship until taught that taking out the smaller ones was easier and reduced the enemy's effectiveness all the faster.

I would love to see more balance passes to bring the underperformers and the overachievers more in line with each other.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2014, 05:02:02 PM »
In defence of the Attractor Drones, their very high range (13,000) and good speed (84) allows them to kite the most AI enemies while taking zero damage, so I feel that categorizing them as bad swarmers based on their DPS and health total is a bit misleading - their role isn't to stand and fight within fire range of enemy fleets like the short-ranged swarmers do, unless the player specifically chooses to use them in that way to take advantage of their laser-absorbing properties. They really are quite good units, when used in the roles they are intended for.

EDIT: This shouldn't be read as a vote against buffing them, mind you. They are in general of less use than the top range of swarmers - it is just that classifying them together with the miserable short-range autocannons seems an insult to a perfectly decent unit. ;)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 05:08:07 PM by Peter Ebbesen »
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2014, 05:16:12 PM »
Keep in mind that low cap ships and low rate of fire ships are much more vulnerable to "wasting" shots due to overkill. Yes, "overkill refund" of "shots still in transit" mitigates a large amount of this (and is the reason why this effect is much less prevalent than the "lost DPS as ships die" effect), but it still happens (like a Z bombard hitting a laser gattling, way overkilling it, where it could of used that damage to hit something with more HP instead).

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 02:09:23 AM »
i notice kahuna you didn't put in the cap cost in metal any chance you could add that to your comparison?
Done.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:28:12 AM by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline MaxAstro

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 05:46:24 PM »
I'm not sure I'd describe Space Planes as "swarm units".  More like... "tactical murder dispensers".  :p

But yeah, I tend to agree that autocannons are pretty weak.

Funny to see raiders listed as beastly - I remember back when they were basically voted most underpowered unit in the game...

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Swarmers and their use (Or lack of)
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 05:48:40 PM »
Funny to see raiders listed as beastly - I remember back when they were basically voted most underpowered unit in the game...
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