Author Topic: Question about reinforcements  (Read 2755 times)

Offline allmybase

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2010, 01:37:54 AM »
Things make sense now, now I see why they stack things on top of wormholes, because they have a hidden reinforcement post(s) there.

Offline x4000

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2010, 10:02:26 AM »
Exactly!
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Offline allmybase

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2010, 03:07:29 AM »
What's so confusing is reading that the lower limit of units is 250.

This in fact more like....1000. Because if a planet's still getting reinforcements, that means two things

1) at least 1 command station is alive
2) each planet has at least 1 wormhole out

Which means 2 x reinforcement = 500, x 2 AI = 1000 units.

So taking out guard posts has a much smaller effect that might be expected if you got tricked by reading the info about reinforcement caps.

Now especially considering most planets have at least 2 wormholes, and like you were saying on higher difficulties each wormhole can get 2 posts, you may hardly even get a dent into the planet population cap even if you eliminated every single guard post.

Let's say a planet has 2 wormholes and "just" a command station left. That's 2500 units at the lower unit end on a higher difficulty setting even if you killed all 10 guard posts. There's almost no point in taking the time to eliminate all the guard posts.

Offline SmileyFace

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2010, 12:44:33 PM »
perma-cloaked wormhole guard posts
So that's where the mystery ships come from... Wow, I hate them. They are nonsensical, undocumented and can ruin logistics.

In one game, I had a very frustrating moment when conquering a system. Why? I had 2 friendly wormholes that I thought were safe. After all, there was nothing on the other side but my own systems. The assault was under control, so I brought science vessels through. Suddenly, reinforcements appeared, seemingly from all wormholes at once, and flanked the vessels. This happened twice. After confirming my systems weren't breached & the AI ships were not cloaking types, I was at a loss as to what happened. I was frustrated because there was no possible logical explanation.

Hidden wormhole posts are clunky and feel cheap. Why can't wormhole reinforcements come from the warp gate (or guard post, if the warp gate is down) and go to each wormhole from there? At least then a player can see why and from where reinforcements are arriving.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2010, 05:07:15 PM »
tbh, i also think this is rather cheap but i refrained from saying so because i have honestly not a clue how to do it better.

I also think that we should eliminate those hidden guard-posts and adapt spawn rate for the ACTUAL guard posts. This would again give a reason to neuter worlds (which through this invisible stuff, indeed is rather pointless)
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Offline SmileyFace

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2010, 09:33:20 AM »
This would again give a reason to neuter worlds (which through this invisible stuff, indeed is rather pointless)

Yes, this is part of my frustration with the hidden guard posts: I have been doing this! That is, destroying guard posts before the command centre. I thought it was good strategy, the whole idea being to remove reinforcements and weaken the system, slowly but permanently... so I thought.

Having invisible, invincible wormhole guard posts completely ruins this option. I have a much easier time when I just send suicide bombers at the command centre and defend against the angry FRD horde in a friendly system.

Limited options make the smiley face sad :(

Offline x4000

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2010, 09:43:21 AM »
Something I have been mulling is just making the hidden wormhole guard posts not count for ship cap purposes. I think that would solve the chief complaint here. As for ships warping in and appearing eight at the wormhole, that does not seem strange to me. The ships are arriving from deep space and stopping at their target; they are not just being built by an invisible building or anything.
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Offline SmileyFace

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2010, 11:50:28 AM »
Something I have been mulling is just making the hidden wormhole guard posts not count for ship cap purposes. I think that would solve the chief complaint here. As for ships warping in and appearing eight at the wormhole, that does not seem strange to me. The ships are arriving from deep space and stopping at their target; they are not just being built by an invisible building or anything.

A very welcome change! Thank you. I'll play test it and see how it affects gameplay.

Um, how is it not strange that ships can appear out of thin air? Reinforcements at guard posts appear at guard posts: that makes sense. Reinforcements from a warp gate appear at the warp gate: also makes sense. Reinforcements from an invisible wormhole post pop out of nowhere, even when the wormhole in question leads to "controlled space"... that makes no sense.

In this case the reinforcements are being built by an invisible building :P

Offline x4000

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2010, 12:05:30 PM »
Nope, nope, nope.  None of those buildings are "building" those things.  Let's take... hey, let's take Star Trek.  Or, Star Wars.  Either way.  How about the Return of the Jedi as an easy example: is it strange when all those rebel ships pop out right next to the death star?  What built those ships right in the middle of nowhere?  Or every time the Enterprise goes to warp and shows up somewhere else, is there something there to build it?  More often, those ships appear where they want based on prior calculations and such, and then just seem to materialize out of thin air as far as their opponents would be concerned.

That's what is going on here.  Ships are built outside the galaxy, then warped in to various spots, sling-shotted by the warp gate or otherwise.  That's why it isn't strange, there are mountains of precedent for this sort of thing.  At the moment there is no way to get outside the galaxy to find the AI production facilities, but that is something we might explore in a future expansion, depending. :)
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Offline SmileyFace

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2010, 12:31:51 PM »
Nope, nope, nope.  None of those buildings are "building" those things.  Let's take... hey, let's take Star Trek.  Or, Star Wars.  Either way.  How about the Return of the Jedi as an easy example: is it strange when all those rebel ships pop out right next to the death star?  What built those ships right in the middle of nowhere?  Or every time the Enterprise goes to warp and shows up somewhere else, is there something there to build it?  More often, those ships appear where they want based on prior calculations and such, and then just seem to materialize out of thin air as far as their opponents would be concerned.

That's what is going on here.  Ships are built outside the galaxy, then warped in to various spots, sling-shotted by the warp gate or otherwise.  That's why it isn't strange, there are mountains of precedent for this sort of thing.  At the moment there is no way to get outside the galaxy to find the AI production facilities, but that is something we might explore in a future expansion, depending. :)
Oh snap! That's so... cool! And I can't argue against it because it's a theory (and a cool one at that). And it makes those invisible, invincible wormhole posts make sense... sort of! Besides, it's cool. Those darn sneaky warping AI ships... Now I have to put up with them!

Game, set and match to you, good sir :D

Offline x4000

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2010, 12:55:58 PM »
 :D

The flavor text on warp gates, and in the wiki, talks about that, too.  So I didn't just make it up right then, just so you know. :)
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Offline SmileyFace

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2010, 01:00:27 PM »
:D

The flavor text on warp gates, and in the wiki, talks about that, too.  So I didn't just make it up right then, just so you know. :)
Yes, I know. I checked the wiki (and forum) when I was trying to figure out where those ships were appearing from. I didn't think to take it literally - I thought it was just that: flavour text!

Offline x4000

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Re: Question about reinforcements
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2010, 01:03:01 PM »
Gotcha!
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