Author Topic: Fortressies VS Fortressies  (Read 3039 times)

Offline carldong

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Fortressies VS Fortressies
« on: November 23, 2015, 01:53:13 AM »
Wow, I found that one way to deal with fortresses of AI (Fortress King type)... Is to include a fortress in offensive beachhead, and watch the flame war! This way, I spare my sniper turrets for something else. Mini fortress works, too.

Although this is still at the beginning of the game, I will continue to test how well it turn out.

BTW, Mini fortresses are bad at almost everything (DPS-wise), but I still find them useful when I am low on Engineers (especially when I don't have Mk IIIs unlocked). Plus, they are useful in beachheads because they can MOVE

PS. As defense, I found Heavy Beam Cannons work much better... I haven't used fortresses a lot anyway

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 02:32:24 AM »
Well, now I start to think that Mini Fortresses are actually built for offending... Bring 20 MkII Engineers and some mobile builders, hide in Assualt Transport, throw into enemy territory (with supply). Pop a shield. 5 seconds. Pop one Mini Fortress. A few seconds later, you get a beachhead half cap of the strength of any MkI turrets (without modifiers), with a cost of 9000 energy, actually less than half cap of any turrets. Plus it serves as a super durable repair station. Then add in some more turrets for their modifiers. Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress --- if there is one, or just leave it at the beachhead for an extra defense.

I think the same property can be used if you need some temporary extra power for your defence, or, as I said before, if you actually run out of engineers.

Real fortresses are way too expensive to use offensively

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2015, 02:39:00 AM »
And yes, you can kite enemy slow starships with MFs, moving half a cap of firepower around

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2015, 02:43:03 AM »
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2015, 02:51:15 AM »
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.

Two. 18000 Energy, 1600 DPS. More efficient than any MkIs, less efficient than MkIIs. But I think we have the highest d(DPS)/dt since we can build them so quickly

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2015, 07:49:28 AM »
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.

Two. 18000 Energy, 1600 DPS. More efficient than any MkIs, less efficient than MkIIs. But I think we have the highest d(DPS)/dt since we can build them so quickly
Ow, I didn't remember that. Thanks.
Also, I remember seeing some community members doing the maths about the mini fortress, and I searched for the thread but found nothing. Maybe someone with better memory than me would be able to help finding out.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2015, 11:21:40 AM »
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.

Two. 18000 Energy, 1600 DPS. More efficient than any MkIs, less efficient than MkIIs. But I think we have the highest d(DPS)/dt since we can build them so quickly
Ow, I didn't remember that. Thanks.
Also, I remember seeing some community members doing the maths about the mini fortress, and I searched for the thread but found nothing. Maybe someone with better memory than me would be able to help finding out.

Kahuna's guide has it. I also tried Heavy Beam Cannon a bit. They are awesome too, higher DPS, higher health, lower metal cost. However, they can't move, and are not quite good at shooting scattered targets (specifically, I am talking about Spire Blades) though... I constantly spare 5 of them for liquid use

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2015, 11:33:01 AM »
Well, OK. It looks like HBCs can be built faster...

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2015, 12:50:57 AM »
Even better, I can beachhead without alerting adjacent planet! GREAT!
2 MFs, 10 Lasers, 2 MkI HFFs, 20 MkI Spiders, 2 MkI Gravs, 1 Counter Sniper, 1 Steatlth Tachyon. 1 Mobile builder, 1 MkII Engr, 2 Remains rebuilder.
I am testing on a MkIII Fortress King planet, no special force. It survived the release of guard post with little problem (I added one HBC in emergency), and now I am spamming the damn modular fortress home station under MkIII force field with my... Spider turrets. I really need to bring some bombers.
Slicer bays post no danger toward my small beachhead

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2015, 12:52:39 AM »
Even better, I can beachhead without alerting adjacent planet! GREAT!
2 MFs, 10 Lasers, 2 MkI HFFs, 20 MkI Spiders, 2 MkI Gravs, 1 Counter Sniper, 1 Steatlth Tachyon. 1 Mobile builder, 1 MkII Engr, 2 Remains rebuilder.
I am testing on a MkIII Fortress King planet, no special force. It survived the release of guard post with little problem (I added one HBC in emergency), and now I am spamming the damn modular fortress home station under MkIII force field with my... Spider turrets. I really need to bring some bombers.
Slicer bays post no danger toward my small beachhead

Wait, no it is a Mk I world. WIth MkIII modules on its command station. I will test it on stronger AI planet next time.

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2015, 09:42:23 PM »
So, up to now, I find that Mini Fortress are more like super engineer in my defence line than, a fortress. Mini Fortress does deserve to be under the tab "Support" since its firepower is just... Nothing. However, it is much more reliable at fixing a huge cluster of turrets than those FRD suiciding engineers, which doesn't fix anything but run to death when a CPA suddenly emerges from the wormhole.

Interestingly, MFs are not quite targeted by anything from the AI (probably because the Spider Turrets stalled the Bombers), so it just sits there fixing >100 turrets while doing some moderate damage.
Then, I tested Fortress Beachheading, on a heavily fortified Turtle 6 MkIII world with a whole bunch of special forces. I bring in my special force too: A team of 20 MkII Engrs and 4 Riot Controls, 1 Flagship, 1 Leech, plus 40 Mini Rams (for taking down starships, but I forgot to use them... which caused my expensive special force to die. RIP, starships).
Fortress is interestingly not targeted in construction. But I still think it takes too long to build, even with 20 MkII Engrs. It took ~30s, if I remember correctly. Then I built Spider IIs, Missile IIs, Laser IIs, and soon enough there is no more ship floating around. I almost lost the force field, though.
Side note: It seems that Auto Kite always kills my ships in beachheading. Is there any way to let them move back after they kite away? Not quite like Attack Move since I don't want them to chase enemies.

Offline Malkiel

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2015, 09:27:32 AM »
I often use miniforts when I can't be bothered to spend 3K on mobile space docks.

MSDs repair better due to range of repair, have cloaking for a defense, only a 5 second delay on repairs after movement, and can build on your planet and fly themselves into enemy turf.
They can also produce ships but as that removes their cloaking, it is of minimal use at best.

Miniforts don't suffer from global cap meaning you can use them on any number of fronts simultaneously.
The long range is nice, but overall I build them for the same reason I build medic frigates: to repair the things I actually care about. I like that you're using them in offensive beachheading tho.

Fortress does get targeted in construction on most difficulty levels. When it dies, it writes a 900K metal check to the AI salvage account, and the words "reprisal level 1" appear in the upper left of my screen. I only attempt fortress construction in contested areas when I have absolute superiority of firepower; like having a mark IV heavy beam cannon sitting there. If I don't have superiority to the point the fortress will finish untouched, It's not worth the risk of reprisal.

All the above being said, I also beachhead pretty much never. I hate going back to rebuild because a space plane came past, or a high mark starship got frisky. I also gate raid next to never, and these are probably the reasons I don't play on top difficulties. (highest win: 8.6/8.6)

Offline carldong

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 12:04:59 PM »
I often use miniforts when I can't be bothered to spend 3K on mobile space docks.

MSDs repair better due to range of repair, have cloaking for a defense, only a 5 second delay on repairs after movement, and can build on your planet and fly themselves into enemy turf.
They can also produce ships but as that removes their cloaking, it is of minimal use at best.

Miniforts don't suffer from global cap meaning you can use them on any number of fronts simultaneously.
The long range is nice, but overall I build them for the same reason I build medic frigates: to repair the things I actually care about. I like that you're using them in offensive beachheading tho.

Fortress does get targeted in construction on most difficulty levels. When it dies, it writes a 900K metal check to the AI salvage account, and the words "reprisal level 1" appear in the upper left of my screen. I only attempt fortress construction in contested areas when I have absolute superiority of firepower; like having a mark IV heavy beam cannon sitting there. If I don't have superiority to the point the fortress will finish untouched, It's not worth the risk of reprisal.

All the above being said, I also beachhead pretty much never. I hate going back to rebuild because a space plane came past, or a high mark starship got frisky. I also gate raid next to never, and these are probably the reasons I don't play on top difficulties. (highest win: 8.6/8.6)

Then I am playing a very different style then... I have not tried Mobile Space Docks, I didn't know they are cloaked themselves... But for 3000K, it got to be something useful. I beachhead a lot, and hack a lot (mainly for fabricators, and for K). I bring in a starship fleet (no fleetship unless it is some sort of infinite range, or has special abilities, or Mark Vs). I bring a LOT of engineers and try to flash build things on enemy territories. Usually,

Force Fields --> Spider Is --> Heavy Beam Is --> Grav I/II --> Missile Is/Laser Is/Needler Is (Depending on hull type I am dealing with) --> Mini Fortress(Enemies should start shooting my turrets soon now) --> Add turrets regarding the current enemies I am dealing with

Then beachhead is secured from the first reaction. If there are quite some more enemies, and I am actually trying to take the planet or do some hacking, I flash build either a Fortess(If I want to take the planet) and/or a ton of turrets(for hacking).

After the BH has done its job, I scrap it a little by a little (I did scrap one entire beachhead once, and guess what... Reprisal Level 5!), or, if I want to take it, I move the Fortress around to its new defensive position. Build a Logistical CS and its defense, then scrap everything else. Enjoy the metal salvage from Logistical Command Stations!

Finally, swap the command station if I need to.

Note that I have not tested on difficulties higher than 7. I have tested on Turtle's Mk III/IV worlds, which is supposed to have an extra powerful defend. And they do work well. Particularly, I already get some defensive force when I finally take the planets.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2015, 10:30:00 AM »
Ah, and there lies the major difference. MSDs are best at mass-building fleetships in a hurry, especially neinzul railpods or other cheap but swarmer ships. Tougher ships might take a bit longer, but you're getting about a dozen at once assuming you've got them all built iitc, so its not too big a deal. I don't think they build starships, but they do have cloaking and do repair things. I haven't played above 7 though.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 11:53:58 AM »
Ah, and there lies the major difference. MSDs are best at mass-building fleetships in a hurry, especially neinzul railpods or other cheap but swarmer ships. Tougher ships might take a bit longer, but you're getting about a dozen at once assuming you've got them all built iitc, so its not too big a deal. I don't think they build starships, but they do have cloaking and do repair things. I haven't played above 7 though.
They can't build starships nor buildings (turrets, suport, etc) and are awesome with younglings. Actually, it's like playing with Roaming Enclaves but controlling them! So much fun!
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.