Arcen Games

Games => AI War Classic => AI War Classic - Strategy Discussion => Topic started by: carldong on November 23, 2015, 01:53:13 AM

Title: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 23, 2015, 01:53:13 AM
Wow, I found that one way to deal with fortresses of AI (Fortress King type)... Is to include a fortress in offensive beachhead, and watch the flame war! This way, I spare my sniper turrets for something else. Mini fortress works, too.

Although this is still at the beginning of the game, I will continue to test how well it turn out.

BTW, Mini fortresses are bad at almost everything (DPS-wise), but I still find them useful when I am low on Engineers (especially when I don't have Mk IIIs unlocked). Plus, they are useful in beachheads because they can MOVE

PS. As defense, I found Heavy Beam Cannons work much better... I haven't used fortresses a lot anyway
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 23, 2015, 02:32:24 AM
Well, now I start to think that Mini Fortresses are actually built for offending... Bring 20 MkII Engineers and some mobile builders, hide in Assualt Transport, throw into enemy territory (with supply). Pop a shield. 5 seconds. Pop one Mini Fortress. A few seconds later, you get a beachhead half cap of the strength of any MkI turrets (without modifiers), with a cost of 9000 energy, actually less than half cap of any turrets. Plus it serves as a super durable repair station. Then add in some more turrets for their modifiers. Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress --- if there is one, or just leave it at the beachhead for an extra defense.

I think the same property can be used if you need some temporary extra power for your defence, or, as I said before, if you actually run out of engineers.

Real fortresses are way too expensive to use offensively
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 23, 2015, 02:39:00 AM
And yes, you can kite enemy slow starships with MFs, moving half a cap of firepower around
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: Pumpkin on November 23, 2015, 02:43:03 AM
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 23, 2015, 02:51:15 AM
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.

Two. 18000 Energy, 1600 DPS. More efficient than any MkIs, less efficient than MkIIs. But I think we have the highest d(DPS)/dt since we can build them so quickly
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: Pumpkin on November 23, 2015, 07:49:28 AM
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.

Two. 18000 Energy, 1600 DPS. More efficient than any MkIs, less efficient than MkIIs. But I think we have the highest d(DPS)/dt since we can build them so quickly
Ow, I didn't remember that. Thanks.
Also, I remember seeing some community members doing the maths about the mini fortress, and I searched for the thread but found nothing. Maybe someone with better memory than me would be able to help finding out.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 23, 2015, 11:21:40 AM
Once the beachhead is secured, build another mini fortress, and try to move that one around to kill the enemy fortress
Wait, aren't mini fortresses limited at one per planet? I can't remember.

Two. 18000 Energy, 1600 DPS. More efficient than any MkIs, less efficient than MkIIs. But I think we have the highest d(DPS)/dt since we can build them so quickly
Ow, I didn't remember that. Thanks.
Also, I remember seeing some community members doing the maths about the mini fortress, and I searched for the thread but found nothing. Maybe someone with better memory than me would be able to help finding out.

Kahuna's guide has it. I also tried Heavy Beam Cannon a bit. They are awesome too, higher DPS, higher health, lower metal cost. However, they can't move, and are not quite good at shooting scattered targets (specifically, I am talking about Spire Blades) though... I constantly spare 5 of them for liquid use
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 23, 2015, 11:33:01 AM
Well, OK. It looks like HBCs can be built faster...
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 24, 2015, 12:50:57 AM
Even better, I can beachhead without alerting adjacent planet! GREAT!
2 MFs, 10 Lasers, 2 MkI HFFs, 20 MkI Spiders, 2 MkI Gravs, 1 Counter Sniper, 1 Steatlth Tachyon. 1 Mobile builder, 1 MkII Engr, 2 Remains rebuilder.
I am testing on a MkIII Fortress King planet, no special force. It survived the release of guard post with little problem (I added one HBC in emergency), and now I am spamming the damn modular fortress home station under MkIII force field with my... Spider turrets. I really need to bring some bombers.
Slicer bays post no danger toward my small beachhead
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 24, 2015, 12:52:39 AM
Even better, I can beachhead without alerting adjacent planet! GREAT!
2 MFs, 10 Lasers, 2 MkI HFFs, 20 MkI Spiders, 2 MkI Gravs, 1 Counter Sniper, 1 Steatlth Tachyon. 1 Mobile builder, 1 MkII Engr, 2 Remains rebuilder.
I am testing on a MkIII Fortress King planet, no special force. It survived the release of guard post with little problem (I added one HBC in emergency), and now I am spamming the damn modular fortress home station under MkIII force field with my... Spider turrets. I really need to bring some bombers.
Slicer bays post no danger toward my small beachhead

Wait, no it is a Mk I world. WIth MkIII modules on its command station. I will test it on stronger AI planet next time.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 24, 2015, 09:42:23 PM
So, up to now, I find that Mini Fortress are more like super engineer in my defence line than, a fortress. Mini Fortress does deserve to be under the tab "Support" since its firepower is just... Nothing. However, it is much more reliable at fixing a huge cluster of turrets than those FRD suiciding engineers, which doesn't fix anything but run to death when a CPA suddenly emerges from the wormhole.

Interestingly, MFs are not quite targeted by anything from the AI (probably because the Spider Turrets stalled the Bombers), so it just sits there fixing >100 turrets while doing some moderate damage.
Then, I tested Fortress Beachheading, on a heavily fortified Turtle 6 MkIII world with a whole bunch of special forces. I bring in my special force too: A team of 20 MkII Engrs and 4 Riot Controls, 1 Flagship, 1 Leech, plus 40 Mini Rams (for taking down starships, but I forgot to use them... which caused my expensive special force to die. RIP, starships).
Fortress is interestingly not targeted in construction. But I still think it takes too long to build, even with 20 MkII Engrs. It took ~30s, if I remember correctly. Then I built Spider IIs, Missile IIs, Laser IIs, and soon enough there is no more ship floating around. I almost lost the force field, though.
Side note: It seems that Auto Kite always kills my ships in beachheading. Is there any way to let them move back after they kite away? Not quite like Attack Move since I don't want them to chase enemies.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: Malkiel on November 25, 2015, 09:27:32 AM
I often use miniforts when I can't be bothered to spend 3K on mobile space docks.

MSDs repair better due to range of repair, have cloaking for a defense, only a 5 second delay on repairs after movement, and can build on your planet and fly themselves into enemy turf.
They can also produce ships but as that removes their cloaking, it is of minimal use at best.

Miniforts don't suffer from global cap meaning you can use them on any number of fronts simultaneously.
The long range is nice, but overall I build them for the same reason I build medic frigates: to repair the things I actually care about. I like that you're using them in offensive beachheading tho.

Fortress does get targeted in construction on most difficulty levels. When it dies, it writes a 900K metal check to the AI salvage account, and the words "reprisal level 1" appear in the upper left of my screen. I only attempt fortress construction in contested areas when I have absolute superiority of firepower; like having a mark IV heavy beam cannon sitting there. If I don't have superiority to the point the fortress will finish untouched, It's not worth the risk of reprisal.

All the above being said, I also beachhead pretty much never. I hate going back to rebuild because a space plane came past, or a high mark starship got frisky. I also gate raid next to never, and these are probably the reasons I don't play on top difficulties. (highest win: 8.6/8.6)
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 25, 2015, 12:04:59 PM
I often use miniforts when I can't be bothered to spend 3K on mobile space docks.

MSDs repair better due to range of repair, have cloaking for a defense, only a 5 second delay on repairs after movement, and can build on your planet and fly themselves into enemy turf.
They can also produce ships but as that removes their cloaking, it is of minimal use at best.

Miniforts don't suffer from global cap meaning you can use them on any number of fronts simultaneously.
The long range is nice, but overall I build them for the same reason I build medic frigates: to repair the things I actually care about. I like that you're using them in offensive beachheading tho.

Fortress does get targeted in construction on most difficulty levels. When it dies, it writes a 900K metal check to the AI salvage account, and the words "reprisal level 1" appear in the upper left of my screen. I only attempt fortress construction in contested areas when I have absolute superiority of firepower; like having a mark IV heavy beam cannon sitting there. If I don't have superiority to the point the fortress will finish untouched, It's not worth the risk of reprisal.

All the above being said, I also beachhead pretty much never. I hate going back to rebuild because a space plane came past, or a high mark starship got frisky. I also gate raid next to never, and these are probably the reasons I don't play on top difficulties. (highest win: 8.6/8.6)

Then I am playing a very different style then... I have not tried Mobile Space Docks, I didn't know they are cloaked themselves... But for 3000K, it got to be something useful. I beachhead a lot, and hack a lot (mainly for fabricators, and for K). I bring in a starship fleet (no fleetship unless it is some sort of infinite range, or has special abilities, or Mark Vs). I bring a LOT of engineers and try to flash build things on enemy territories. Usually,

Force Fields --> Spider Is --> Heavy Beam Is --> Grav I/II --> Missile Is/Laser Is/Needler Is (Depending on hull type I am dealing with) --> Mini Fortress(Enemies should start shooting my turrets soon now) --> Add turrets regarding the current enemies I am dealing with

Then beachhead is secured from the first reaction. If there are quite some more enemies, and I am actually trying to take the planet or do some hacking, I flash build either a Fortess(If I want to take the planet) and/or a ton of turrets(for hacking).

After the BH has done its job, I scrap it a little by a little (I did scrap one entire beachhead once, and guess what... Reprisal Level 5!), or, if I want to take it, I move the Fortress around to its new defensive position. Build a Logistical CS and its defense, then scrap everything else. Enjoy the metal salvage from Logistical Command Stations!

Finally, swap the command station if I need to.

Note that I have not tested on difficulties higher than 7. I have tested on Turtle's Mk III/IV worlds, which is supposed to have an extra powerful defend. And they do work well. Particularly, I already get some defensive force when I finally take the planets.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: Aklyon on November 26, 2015, 10:30:00 AM
Ah, and there lies the major difference. MSDs are best at mass-building fleetships in a hurry, especially neinzul railpods or other cheap but swarmer ships. Tougher ships might take a bit longer, but you're getting about a dozen at once assuming you've got them all built iitc, so its not too big a deal. I don't think they build starships, but they do have cloaking and do repair things. I haven't played above 7 though.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: Pumpkin on November 26, 2015, 11:53:58 AM
Ah, and there lies the major difference. MSDs are best at mass-building fleetships in a hurry, especially neinzul railpods or other cheap but swarmer ships. Tougher ships might take a bit longer, but you're getting about a dozen at once assuming you've got them all built iitc, so its not too big a deal. I don't think they build starships, but they do have cloaking and do repair things. I haven't played above 7 though.
They can't build starships nor buildings (turrets, suport, etc) and are awesome with younglings. Actually, it's like playing with Roaming Enclaves but controlling them! So much fun!
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on November 27, 2015, 02:12:03 AM
Now I am recording a series of gameplay on 6/6 Fallen Spire, first time encounter so no spoil!!
The exogalactic and CPAs get so powerful that, well, Mini fortress are basically... Cannon fodders, and it does not survive long enough to repair anything (probably because I place them right on the enemies' track).
On the other hand, since I need to fortify the damn chokepoints, I unlocked ALL Fortresses except the modular one. FIVE of them (plus two minies) are placed on my entry choke point, THREE on each exit branch worlds. None of them are in line of enemy movement. The result: the entry choke point Fortress Cluster kills like 1/3 of the Exo waves, but unfortunately the lower marks die to CPAs(because Exos simply ignore my defence there). None of the fortresses are in the way of the enemy, so they don't die.
BTW, pretty interesting to see five fortresses repairing each other. But any major repairs still need my Combat Engineering Team (40 MkIII Engrs!!!) or my Galaxy Express Engineereing Team (I call it GalEx) (7 MkIII, 1 Mobile Builders, 2 Remains Rebuilders, stuffed in a MkII Jumpship).
I am currently stuck a bit since, to my surprise, I need a whole lot of K after construction of Galactic Capitol... I was never told to do so, so well, what a surprise! I have 0 K left!
Worse, as I mentioned in another thread, my choke point is right next to a Core World. So that is also their choke point. At closing to 400 AIP, I need some serious planning to establish on the other side of the galaxy, raid for its K (and asteroids, I located three Titanites! I want Mark V Jumpships!), and abandon.
So K thirsty that I actually K hacked on that Core World. Not much response, though. I have so much HaP that I just popped a Hacking device on the edge of CW and left it there until K's are all extracted, and moved the hacker back(Of course, I used Mini-Rams to take down the Tachyon emitter of the entry point, which provoked a HUGE special force. I waited for them to settle down).
I am even considering kill the first AI Homeworld before advancing the Fallen Spire campaign because the Exos are coming so quickly when it is two hops away.
I heard that AIP will bump up 100 though, so still resistant to do so since currently I am not doing too well in defending those combined Exo+CPA+Threat waves.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: TechSY730 on December 16, 2015, 02:34:53 AM
I agree that miniforts are underated. Their contribution is subtle, but can make quite an impact long term.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: Draco18s on December 16, 2015, 04:48:51 AM
I agree that miniforts are underated. Their contribution is subtle, but can make quite an impact long term.

Miniforts have good damage:cost ratios, but as each one is 1/10th of a regular mark 1 fortress, that works out to being pretty lackluster. They do find a place here and there though, but I've dropped them from my standard defense layouts.
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: Kahuna on December 16, 2015, 07:58:56 AM
There's nothing like beachheading with a Mark IV HBC. 8)
Title: Re: Fortressies VS Fortressies
Post by: carldong on December 18, 2015, 12:26:48 AM
There's nothing like beachheading with a Mark IV HBC. 8)

I also put them(it?) under 6 Spire city structure shields covering wormhole next to a modular fortress with shields also under the ff next to an Artillery Golem next to a Orbital Mass Driver and with the system covered with Black Hole Machine and Planetary Armor XXer. The AI Exo wave is having a really terrible time having to deal with the Grav turrets and all turrets standing on two sides greeting, and the shield blob at the end saying "wrong way".