Author Topic: Double Teuthida  (Read 1485 times)

Offline Pumpkin

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Double Teuthida
« on: April 21, 2015, 10:38:33 AM »
Replying to KillerofGods almost made me forget why I came here in the first place.

So I'm trying over and over to take down that last AI homeworld with two Teuthida, but I took the fleetship path and my starship fleet is quite low. I feel like I lost that game when I chose to spend my K on fleetships without scouting this HW hours earlier. I nuked and sent MkI lightning warhead but a warhead interceptor on the other side of the planet cancel me to approach the closest Teuthida. The only thing I didn't tried is an EMP warhead; maybe it would give me the time to reach the Teuthidas with my fleetships.

(...)

Ouch. Tried the EMP warhead: doesn't work. Teuthida not affected by EMP...
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Offline Mal

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 04:42:35 PM »
Tough situation Pumpkin -

I see from the wiki these two helpful hints -

Quote
Thankfully, the drones can not damage ships with the Reclamation Immunity, such as your starships. Also, the shots from the Guard Post itself are considered Sniper Shots and so the Counter-Sniper coverage a Scout Starship offers will render the Guard Post unable to damage your fleet.
Combining these two factors, the most common strategy to kill this guard post is to send a starship only fleet that has Scout Starships along for the counter-sniper coverage.

So it looks like you take in some starships guarded by scout starships to take out the warhead interceptor. Then you bring in a cap of powerful mk 3 armored warheads. The Mk3 armored warhead cap will do 24M damage to anything guarding it. If you have strong enough star-ships you should be able to pick off the now harmless teuthida without too much trouble due to the warheads guarding the ships.

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2015, 05:49:52 PM »
Hi Pumpkin,

Had something equally horrible recently.  Here's what I would do.  (If you assume it's going to involve WMDs, you are correct.)

Supplies Needed:

1. 3x Armored warhead Mk.I -- Mk.I has enough punch to take down a Teuthida, and is the fastest option to build to get the job done, and won't tank your economy as bad in case you need to do a few waves on the homeworld after the Squids are down.  Helpful if you've already tripped the HW attack exos from a prior try.

2. 1x Nuke Mk.I

3. Stuff a suicide squad of some flavor of bomber into an AT.  These guys' one job will be kill the WI.  If you have truckloads of Teleraiders and can wait a bit, that's another option.  If the OMD is down and you have Heavy Bombers, that would be my preference over anything else since you don't have to worry about them getting zombied on the job.  Pack Scoutstars for sniper immunity.

4. A sacrificial lamb of your choice, something cheap but annoying and fast moving to draw out the strategic reserve and bait it into position.  They will ultimately get zombied by the Teuthida so make sure it's stuff that won't be a problem when it's switched teams.

5. However many Lightning Mk.I warheads you prefer, parked under cloak on the adjacent world, right on the wormhole (optional, depends on exactly how much mobile stuff is on this HW)


Plan of Action:


1. Send in your sacrificial lamb to draw the guards and the reserve.  Preferably pull them near the wormhole you are going to bring the rest of your forces through, but out of the way of the Teuthidas.

2. When the hornet's nest is sufficiently stirred, if the population contains a sufficient quantity of Mk.IV ships, NUKE IT.  Nuke doesn't care about warhead interceptors, it still goes off.  If everything is Mk.V, skip this step, can't nuke Mk.V ships -- unless the Mk.III fortress is in the way and still functional, in which case nuking it is back on the menu.

3. Send in the Suicide Squad to rush the WI.  Stop for nothing.

4. Once the WI is down, Lightning anything that can be AoE damaged that's within reach of the wormhole, if you don't feel like there's enough of a path clear for the Armored warheads.

5. Send the Armored warheads through.  Send 1 towards the closest/least defended Teuthida.  Send the other two towards the one that's riskier to reach, with a gap between them and on staggered paths.  In a worst-case scenario, the lead one will draw most of the fire, letting the one behind it reach its target.  You can also have one or two Lightnings flock with the Armoreds, positioned behind the lead a bit.  If something gets too close to the Armoreds, you can peel them off and fire them at what's chasing your missiles.

6. Murder the AI at will.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 05:56:57 PM by Red.Queen »
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2015, 05:06:58 AM »
Thank you both.

I already read the wiki's page about Teuthida. The main problem is too few starships. Indeed, Red.Queen, the WI is the priority target. I plan taking it down with starships, then blowing up everything with warheads. I never tried armored ones; maybe it's time to do this. I already nuked this last homeworld; strategic reserve is low but not empty, and nothing below MkIV (and starships/guardians) remains.

As EMP warheads don't work on Teuthidas, maybe they could spare me the pain to go through strategic reserve and enemy starfleet. Or lightning warheads, but only after WI is down. Okay, I'll need to pile up more W.M.D.

Oh, wanna know something funny? There is a plasma eye too. My first (serious) attempt at 8/8 didn't forgive me many things. However, I hope this situation is just bad luck; the first HW was a breeze compared to this double Teuthida. (Ah, I already encountered a double Wrath Lance at 7/7... I might play with the brutal AI type, one day!)

'kay, I'll keep you informed. Thanks again.
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 06:09:15 AM »
Ohh a Plasma Eye too, that's just insult piled on injury...

You probably know this already, but stuff packed in Transports won't be seen by Eyes -- they only count the Transport, not the ships inside.  Teuthidas also can't zombie stuff that's packed in a flying lunchbox (with GUNS!) (please excuse the silly description, I'm about to go sleep off a nice brandy buzz as soon as I finish listening to music ;D), so if you can get 'em to the WI in time to take it down, possibly under Scoutstar anti-sniper coverage, this is still an option in case the starship route just isn't working out.

Armored warheads are lovely for cases like this -- they have 2M hp (only 500K hp less than a Botnet!) so can take quite a beating if they have to make a long flight to a target while under fire (they're also made for big game hunting as they can concentrate their full damage output onto a single target if it has a truckload of health).  They also self-cloak, but unfortunately that does no good here.  The only thing I do not love about these is their mediocre movement speed (still faster than the Nuke) and their price tag/build time.  Oh and their low caps.  >D Ah well, nothing's perfect.

EMP will do the trick on any enemy fleetships that are under Mk.V, if you prefer not to just nuke 'em flat.  (Guess which I prefer.  >D)

Double Wrath Lance at 7/7???  That's just inhumane.  I'm surprised that can even generate.  Not that double Teuthida at 8/8 is much less cruel.

Good luck!
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 02:36:33 AM »
Thanks you, R.Q.

I'll try the (dusty) assault transport and the armored warhead. Maybe not both. Albeit...
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 05:42:46 PM »
Ouch, I'm back from it, bloody and exhausted, but victorious.

So, for the ones interested in beating a double Teuthida...
First sent nuke I and EMP III in the hole. Nuke took down the little threatfleet and powered'out the fortress; not that useful, just letting the AI know that "one of us is about to dye very soon". EMP did nothing as strategic reserve and core guard posts are immune to it. Just in case, don't do the same mistake as me: blow EMP before you invade the planet. Hacker joined the party a bit latter with the main assault but wasn't more successful. Maybe a question of timing, but latter would have been useless.

Then all my fleet piled'up in ten freshly unlocked Assault Transports and came in. Their very first target was the Warhead Interceptor. Once down, one Lightning I and one Armored I joined while the transports were on their route to the furthest Teuthida. The unarmored warhead was quickly blown up by the strategic reserve and the core starships and guardians, and took some of them in its lightning death. The armored one was on its way to the closest Teuthida, under heavy fire. It was so slow I thought it would never make it. The first Teuthida was assassinated by the carriers; maybe one or two of them were destroyed in the race and their content was lightning-fast busted and/or Teuthid'ed. The remaining carriers were immediately routed toward the second Teuthida, still under the strategic reserve's heavy rain. The armored warhead reached the Teuthida but the transports killed it first. Never the less, it did a great job against the reserve and guardians. Free from zombification threat, the army was promptly unloaded; however the plasma eye joined the play and I was forced to crack it open by raw fire power.

Then the rest of the fight was just a story you all know: remaining fleet fought remaining reserve, then the remnants of my glorious army took the last guardposts and dived on the naked core.

BigBlowUp,
Victory.

Conclusion? The assault transports did what my full endgame fleet, the hacker, a nuke and some warheads were unable to do. I hate assault transports. I hate them as much as you love them. Using warheads was a learning. This is just "take this and win".

On the bigger picture, I also learned that if you don't scout or don't pay enough attention the the full path to victory, you're doomed from your first step. Things would have been sooo different if I had took the starfleet path as soon as I scouted the double Teuthida+eye.

Anyway, my first 8/8 vanilla victory is checked and I feel I've room ahead. Let's try 9/9 vanilla and 8/8 MF!

EDIT: there is too much "would have been" in this post for it remaining clear from conjugation mistakes...
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 04:18:32 AM »
Congrats on the win, Pumpkin!  Now that you've dealt with a double Wrath Lance and a double Teuthida scenario, you should be ready for just about anything that the homeworlds can throw at you.  :)

Yeah, assault transports do seem to be just a little bit *too* good in their current state (while conversely, regular transports are just about useless as far as I can tell) -- you can even use them to eat the initial hit from a WL beam and kick the contents clear if you give the order fast enough.  I think I'll make a post soon with some musing on some possible tweaks that could be done to them.  Still, in the meantime, at least they're suitable as some counter-cheese when the AI breaks out its homeworld limburger like you ran into.  :)

And now you have upgraded your warhead-fu, which'll definitely help out next time you run into Hunter/Killers or other such unpleasantness.

Ahhh, but you weren't doomed, even with that scouting oversight, you still pulled off the win!  Just with a few more scars and traumatized accountants than it might have been otherwise.  ;D

Good luck on the 9/9 vanilla and 8/8 with minor factions runs, look forward to hearing the highlights, and if you run into any snags, feel free to shoot out an SOS for ideas.  (Nuke it.  Whatever the problem is, nuke it.)
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2015, 08:52:39 AM »
Congrats on the win, Pumpkin!  Now that you've dealt with a double Wrath Lance and a double Teuthida scenario, you should be ready for just about anything that the homeworlds can throw at you.  :)

Yeah, assault transports do seem to be just a little bit *too* good in their current state (while conversely, regular transports are just about useless as far as I can tell) -- you can even use them to eat the initial hit from a WL beam and kick the contents clear if you give the order fast enough.  I think I'll make a post soon with some musing on some possible tweaks that could be done to them.  Still, in the meantime, at least they're suitable as some counter-cheese when the AI breaks out its homeworld limburger like you ran into.  :)

And now you have upgraded your warhead-fu, which'll definitely help out next time you run into Hunter/Killers or other such unpleasantness.

Ahhh, but you weren't doomed, even with that scouting oversight, you still pulled off the win!  Just with a few more scars and traumatized accountants than it might have been otherwise.  ;D

Good luck on the 9/9 vanilla and 8/8 with minor factions runs, look forward to hearing the highlights, and if you run into any snags, feel free to shoot out an SOS for ideas.  (Nuke it.  Whatever the problem is, nuke it.)
Yeah, thx.
Looking forward for your transport tweak thread... I'll have at least some things to say about that. We'll see that later.

About the 8/8 MF - 9/9 vanilla, I'm seeking ideas. I'll dig out the "outa track" thread and ask for some challenge. Hope to see ya in.

As your poets says, "nuke them from the orbit, it's the only way to be sure". It definitely should be an AI War mantra.
I'm far from being a warhead-sensei like you, but I feel their AIP cost is too low for the benefit, and Gandhi strategy is a bit too viable to be honest. Maybe if K or AI stealing were involved... Anyway, A.M.D. tweaking is a whole other story.
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Offline KillerofGods

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2015, 07:45:09 PM »
What's the range on  Teuthida? Just managed to play some more today and I scouted one of these on a AI homeworld. The other one seems to have standard stuff.

Should I try focusing the harder one down first? Although the other one does have two Spire archive/research stuff nearby (can you knowledge hack these? Or do you have to capture them?)

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2015, 07:52:54 PM »
What's the range on  Teuthida? Just managed to play some more today and I scouted one of these on a AI homeworld. The other one seems to have standard stuff.

Should I try focusing the harder one down first? Although the other one does have two Spire archive/research stuff nearby (can you knowledge hack these? Or do you have to capture them?)
Spire Archives are capturable, yes. Just make sure you defend them until they extract all the knowledge they can yield, or else. I seriously recommend Golems or high level Champions.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2015, 07:59:37 PM »
What's the range on  Teuthida? Just managed to play some more today and I scouted one of these on a AI homeworld. The other one seems to have standard stuff.
The range of the Teuthida drones is effectively infinite.  There's a limited lifespan on them of 1 minute, but at speed 300 that means pretty much anywhere in the system.

Should I try focusing the harder one down first? Although the other one does have two Spire archive/research stuff nearby (can you knowledge hack these? Or do you have to capture them?)
Spire Archives are capturable, yes. Just make sure you defend them until they extract all the knowledge they can yield, or else. I seriously recommend Golems or high level Champions.
The first 3,000 K in a system can be acquired in any way - Knowledge hack, science vessels, or whatever.  The Spire Archive, and the Spire Archive alone, will continue to gather Knowledge past the normal limit.  It will only gather knowledge, at the rate of 5/second, once you have captured it.
Once captured, as Watashiwa says, be sure to defend them for the 20 minutes (minimum) it will take the Archive to gather that last 6,000 extra knowledge.

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 08:43:01 PM »
KillerofGods -- Which order you crack the homeworlds has benefits and drawbacks.  In general:

1. Easiest First: Pros -- You'll spend less time refleeting between homeworld assaults if you go for the easy one first, as you should take less casualties.  Depending on whether you like to incorporate warheads into your tactics, you'll also use fewer of them, driving the AIP up less, meaning the harder HW doesn't get to juice up as much.  If you play with auto-AIP on, the faster attack/recovery will also help to put you in position to attack the harder one at a lower AIP.  If you don't nuke the HW, you'll be able to capture it and strengthen for the final HW.

Easiest First: Cons -- If you are already in a precarious position and barely hanging on, you might not be able to survive ramping your fleet strength all the way back up to full, and you may not have the strength to take the harder HW with a weakened fleet.  If you play with CSGs on, sometimes you have no choice but to alert the core world(s) by the harder HW first, if it happens to have a CSG-A in a bad place, meaning you have to leave one or more very powerful planets on alert the entire time you take out the easy HW.

2. Hardest First: Pros -- If you survive this, you know you have a lower hurdle to clear on the last HW, which is good for morale, and it also means you may be able to skip fully rebuilding your fleet if you simply don't need full strength to destroy the last one, saving you time and possible AIP/exposure to more waves/CPAs/exos.

Hardest First: Cons -- You will take more casualties and burn more time on the harder world in the attack and in the subsequent recovery, meaning potentially more of a gain on AIP, more time exposed to counterattack, and greater risk of losing irreplaceables and not having their benefits available for striking the easier HW.  If you use warheads, you'll probably burn more of them here and shoot the AIP higher than you would on the easy world.  This is especially true if you choose to nuke the hard world and take the +50AIP from a Mk.I.

The next to last point to consider in general, is whether you can gain any irreplaceables from one HW or a nearby world that you could also use for staging.  Spire Archives, ZPGs, fabs, etc.  If one world offers one or more of these and the other one doesn't, it can be a good idea to go for it first since it'll strengthen you for both attacks, rather than only the last.

Last point -- you should also consider whether you have any "captured" ships enhancing your fleet, like stuff from Zenith Reserves,  Botnet zombies, or flocks of reclaimed stuff swiped from the AI.  Any of these will be difficult or impossible to replace, so consider carefully which world you want to spend them on.
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Offline KillerofGods

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 09:33:00 PM »
Thanks for the info! :D

One last thing if you don't mind me asking. What is the maximum amount of jumps a regular transport can perform vs an assault transport?

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Double Teuthida
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 12:33:20 AM »
Unless I'm remembering wrong, it's 4 vs. 6.